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  #21  
Old October 30th, 2006, 3:06 pm
xXSophXx  Female.gif xXSophXx is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

Good theory's!
While i was listening to that mugglecast episode aswell they mentioned dementors and that got me thinking that maybe when the dementors perform the kiss then thats what they do to the souls, put them into the veil. So thats the voices that you can here, the souls of those who had the kiss. It would make it ironic how sirius ended up there anyway with not long escaping that fate.
Weard theory i no and i dont no if anyones said it before but its different and a possibilty i guess, but i dont think it will happen though and its just a gateway to the after life. what do you guys think?


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  #22  
Old October 30th, 2006, 3:49 pm
smyonson  Male.gif smyonson is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

Well there are some nice discussion's here, but I'm going to have to disagree and say that DD did not stick his hand through the veil. I mean while it is always a possibility, I don't see it being very realistic. If DD wanted to destroy it wouldn't it have been easier to just throw the ring into the veil then, and not risk death by sticking his own hand in. Granted he can hold on to the ring if he were, it just seems reckless to stick your hand in and risk your death when you are trying to find the others, not a DD move.

Also I don't know if many have talked about it but is Sirius the only one, or one of a few, who have actually entered the veil as a living being, and not just a soul/spirit? Could this play some sort of role? Is he living in the afterlife now with his body, or has his body dissappeared since "crossing over?" Maybe this fact that he entered the veil in physical form will have some significant role (I'm not talking about him making a comeback though). But there could be something hidden in that fact. Just a thought.


  #23  
Old October 30th, 2006, 5:16 pm
cab2311  Female.gif cab2311 is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by GryffSolider View Post
Because only four of them heard the actual voices (Ginny's being the anomly cause we don't know who she lost, or if thats the cause at all, losing a close loved such a parents etc etc)
Where does it say that Neville and Ginny hear the voices? Is there a quote from JKR that I missed?


  #24  
Old October 30th, 2006, 5:35 pm
Hedwig50  Female.gif Hedwig50 is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

By GriffSolider
Quote:
The reason I'm agaisnt the Dumbledore chucking the ring into the Veil theory is because, I don't think Rufus Scrimgour or Fudge would have let Dumbledore in the DoM, since Dumbledore had been denying them access to Harry all summer. Second, we know that is was the curse upon the ring or the the Gaunt shack that blackned his hand. He probsbly destroyed the Horcrux magical protection with some unknown powerful magical that indentifies curses and enchantments and went about undoing it and something backfired, then boom! Dumbledore has a useless hand.
That is what came to my mind while reading the books. I didn't connect it to the veil .

However,
If Dumbledore wanted to kill the piece of soul in the ring, instead of putting his hand thru and killing it, he could have just tied the ring to a string, threw it in and retrieved it, clean as a whistle. (This is not a theory just a goofy imagination on the loose)


  #25  
Old October 30th, 2006, 8:25 pm
GryffSolider  Female.gif GryffSolider is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by cab2311 View Post
Where does it say that Neville and Ginny hear the voices? Is there a quote from JKR that I missed?
UK paperback edition pg: 685

"Can anyone else here it?" Harry demanded, for the whispering and murmuring was becomming louder; without really meaning to put it there, he found his foot on the dias.

"I can hear them too,' breathed Luna, joining them around the side of the archway and gazing at the swaying veil. 'There are people in there!'



and then afew paragraphs down


"On the other side, Ginny and Neville were staring, apparently entranced, at the veil too."


Thou they don't admit outloud that they heard the voices they stare so taken with the veil as was Harry, so we can assume rightly they heard the same voices.

(unless there is a mention of confirmation later in the book or by JKR that they did, am I unsure lol)


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  #26  
Old October 30th, 2006, 9:05 pm
cab2311  Female.gif cab2311 is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by GryffSolider View Post
UK paperback edition pg: 685

"Can anyone else here it?" Harry demanded, for the whispering and murmuring was becomming louder; without really meaning to put it there, he found his foot on the dias.

"I can hear them too,' breathed Luna, joining them around the side of the archway and gazing at the swaying veil. 'There are people in there!'



and then afew paragraphs down


"On the other side, Ginny and Neville were staring, apparently entranced, at the veil too."


Thou they don't admit outloud that they heard the voices they stare so taken with the veil as was Harry, so we can assume rightly they heard the same voices.

(unless there is a mention of confirmation later in the book or by JKR that they did, am I unsure lol)
Sometimes we assume too much. I think all we can assume is that Ginny and Neville were entranced by the "swaying" of the veil as Harry was. Luna was gazing at the veil, but it is unclear if she was mesmerized as far as I can remember. I was hoping someone had asked JKR if Ginny and Neville heard the voices and I missed the answer.

I am starting the think Harry's parents were involved in the study of this veil and the locked room. There is a quote somewhere stating something to the effect that information concerning Harry's parents is very important to what Harry ends up having to do. I read it somewhere, it was in one of JKR's interviews. I dont remember where. Anyway, perhaps Ron and Hermione may be good candidates for the job since the veil did not seem to effect them. One cannot very well study something while entranced by that something.


  #27  
Old October 31st, 2006, 3:12 pm
GryffSolider  Female.gif GryffSolider is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

Well I will say that is it truely odd that Ron and Herm were completely fine, and paid no special attention to the veil, but Harry, Luna, Ginny, and Neville were entranced and stared. I believe JK set the four apart, because the four have somethign special in common.


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  #28  
Old October 31st, 2006, 5:48 pm
Nreid  Female.gif Nreid is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedwig50 View Post
By GriffSolider


That is what came to my mind while reading the books. I didn't connect it to the veil .

However,
If Dumbledore wanted to kill the piece of soul in the ring, instead of putting his hand thru and killing it, he could have just tied the ring to a string, threw it in and retrieved it, clean as a whistle. (This is not a theory just a goofy imagination on the loose)

I agree with you....(even though it was my theory! )


  #29  
Old October 31st, 2006, 6:13 pm
LemonFaerie  Female.gif LemonFaerie is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

Hmm.. some really interesting theories. I love the connection of the stinksap to the four of them being entranced by the veil - very intense reading of the text! It will be interesting to see if anything comes of that.

One thing I disagree with is the idea of Dumbledore's hand being blackened by sticking the ring through the veil, not because it is impossible that he did so (although I think it unlikely) but because his purpose in acquiring the Horcruxes is to destroy them and their pieces of soul, not to get the pieces of soul to "cross over." From what we read about the veil, it seems more like a crossing over station, so souls aren't DESTROYED by going through the veil, rather they go on to the "next great adventure," as Dumbledore says about death.

I wonder if that could have been Dumbledore's point to Voldemort when he tells him there are things worse than death, other ways to destroy a man. What if he meant that the worst thing is not going on to that "next great adventure" where your soul continues to exist in a different plane, but rather having your soul completely destroyed (in Voldemort's case, every single piece of his shredded soul) so that when your mortal body dies, you cease to exist in ANY plane? Wouldn't that be the very worst thing to Voldemort (or anyone, really)? Total, complete end of himself with no afterlife, no continuation his soul, no way to continue to exist in any way, shape or form, and no hope of EVER coming back again?


  #30  
Old November 1st, 2006, 2:07 pm
jaan  Male.gif jaan is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harryfan7 View Post

And jaan, Dumbledore did arrive in the Ministry of Magic in the OotP randonly when Harry was at battle with the DE. He did get in then. And if Dumbledore came in the same way Harry and his friend's got in, then he would have passed the veil and saw it.

I should make a distinction- the circumstances for his arrival in the DoM in OoTP were very different- The Death Eaters, as you said, had already unlocked the department, and as they had among their numbers several MoM employees, this was no huge task for them. Dumbledore arrived to capture DEs, protect Harry, and face Voldemort, not to swing by the Department of Mysteries to stick his hand through the veil. It's not that he couldn't, but come on, does anyone actually think he did this? then why talk about Snape's quick action and his own prodigious skill? there is nothing to support this in canon.


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  #31  
Old November 1st, 2006, 4:55 pm
GryffSolider  Female.gif GryffSolider is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonFaerie View Post

One thing I disagree with is the idea of Dumbledore's hand being blackened by sticking the ring through the veil, not because it is impossible that he did so (although I think it unlikely) but because his purpose in acquiring the Horcruxes is to destroy them and their pieces of soul, not to get the pieces of soul to "cross over." From what we read about the veil, it seems more like a crossing over station, so souls aren't DESTROYED by going through the veil, rather they go on to the "next great adventure," as Dumbledore says about death.
agree's!


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  #32  
Old November 1st, 2006, 5:26 pm
Harryfan7  Female.gif Harryfan7 is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaan View Post
I should make a distinction- the circumstances for his arrival in the DoM in OoTP were very different- The Death Eaters, as you said, had already unlocked the department, and as they had among their numbers several MoM employees, this was no huge task for them. Dumbledore arrived to capture DEs, protect Harry, and face Voldemort, not to swing by the Department of Mysteries to stick his hand through the veil. It's not that he couldn't, but come on, does anyone actually think he did this? then why talk about Snape's quick action and his own prodigious skill? there is nothing to support this in canon.
My apologies. I was only considering everyone else's theories and ideas. But I do have have to agree with LemonFaerie now. Way to go!!


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  #33  
Old November 1st, 2006, 7:10 pm
cab2311  Female.gif cab2311 is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

The veil is certainly interesting. As GryffSolider has pointed out, there are several sentances referring to the veil moving and the possiblity that souls are constantly passing through it. Notice how the veil moves when a body moves through it. The veil "fluttered for a moment as though in a high wind and then fell back into place." (OoTP 806, US paperback) It is also interesting how the veil effected each of them differently. Ron doesn't seem to be effected by the veil at all. Ginny and Neville seem to be effected in the same way. "Ginny and Neville were staring, apparently entranced at the veil too." The book says Luna was "gazing at the swaying veil." It may imply that she was entranced as well, but I don't think so. I think the "too" refers to Harry. Luna says she hears the voices and provides an answer, "There are people in there!" Notice how Ginny and Neville say nothing and are led away by Ron and Hermione. Harry just repeats "Sirius" until something finally clicks in his brain; "And then something slid back into place in his brain." Hermione seems to get a bad feeling about the veil from the beginning; "She sounded scared." When Harry starts hearing voices, she wants to get him away from it; "Harry, stop it. come away." She is also the one to announce the veil is dangerous. Harry is effected by the veil the most. The veil seems to be calling him. "he felt a very strong inclination to climb up on the dais and walk through it." and "Without really meaning to put it there, he found his foot was on the dais." He is intrigued by the beauty and movement, he hears voices whispering to him, and he is mezmerized by the swaying. (OoTP 774-775, US paperback)
What interests me the most is Harry's reaction to and Sirius' passing through the veil. Besides dying, what would have happened if Harry did fall in? What happened to Sirius' body?



Last edited by cab2311; November 1st, 2006 at 8:30 pm.
  #34  
Old November 1st, 2006, 7:21 pm
The_Pensieve  Undisclosed.gif The_Pensieve is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

Is it possible that the veil is the not a method of travelling between life and death, but is perhaps the 'spawn point', to use a slightly nerdish computer game comparison, of ghosts? Would it not be reasonable that they all travel into death, then return through the veil?


  #35  
Old November 2nd, 2006, 1:15 am
GryffSolider  Female.gif GryffSolider is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by cab2311 View Post
What interests me the most is Harry's reaction to and Sirius' passing through the veil. Besides dying, what would have happened if Harry did fall in? What happened to Sirius' body?

Well I do believe in OoTP, throughout the series, there is a difference between ghosts, and "souls". What I was trying to put across in my editorial at the end is that the "physical" cannot enter the "spiritual" unscathed. The living cannot enter the realms of the dead.
The Veil is the passageway to which each soul goes to enter the realm of the spiritual, where only the spiritual form can reside. As for Sirius' body "he shed his mortal coil" and is dead. Where the body goes, I got not freaking clue. Obviously in normal circumstance a body is buried, disingrates and is left behind.







Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Pensieve View Post
Is it possible that the veil is the not a method of travelling between life and death, but is perhaps the 'spawn point', to use a slightly nerdish computer game comparison, of ghosts? Would it not be reasonable that they all travel into death, then return through the veil?
This goes back to what I just wrote, that I think when we hear Nick's explaintion on how he came to be ghost, there is a learning process to it, some sort of magic involed, you have to decide to become a ghost. Everyone has a soul to begin with. This is also why Nick was positively sure that Sirius would not return as a ghost, Sirius or Sirius' soul had gone on.

But if you mean did Nick get his "ghost credentials" in the realm of spirit which lays beyond the veil. Sure! Thats a great theory. But Nick does say he feared death. Does that mean everything that it entails, as in going through te veil. Would you really want to be ghost if you positively knew what lay ahead in the afterlife! Probably not.


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  #36  
Old November 2nd, 2006, 3:00 am
cab2311  Female.gif cab2311 is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by GryffSolider View Post
Well I do believe in OoTP, throughout the series, there is a difference between ghosts, and "souls". What I was trying to put across in my editorial at the end is that the "physical" cannot enter the "spiritual" unscathed. The living cannot enter the realms of the dead.
That is pretty much why I believe as well that this is the importance of the veil to the series. Many are stressing over who heard the voices, why, and what they have in common. I only see importance in how the veil effected Harry and what happened to Sirius.

Quote:
Where the body goes, I got not freaking clue.
I loved this response.


  #37  
Old November 2nd, 2006, 4:39 am
GryffSolider  Female.gif GryffSolider is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by cab2311 View Post
That is pretty much why I believe as well that this is the importance of the veil to the series. Many are stressing over who heard the voices, why, and what they have in common. I only see importance in how the veil effected Harry and what happened to Sirius.

I understand why many stress over the signifance of why only some heard the voices, and why some were only effected deeply, I'm sure its a huge revelation or (the stinksap LMBO) to the series, its just not what I focused on specificly for my veil editorial, as you all saw I focused on te purpose of the veil, not the effect it had on the living. But I'm dieing for some explaination. Any flipping explaination will do LOL


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  #38  
Old November 2nd, 2006, 5:38 pm
Nreid  Female.gif Nreid is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

I was reading another thread about Why Voldemort chose to kill Lily and James on Halloween. Someone's answer was that it is believed that "the veil of the world is thinnest" on Halloween. (Thats not an exact quote and I apologize to the origninal poster...but you get the point). The idea is that the "veil" between the spiritual world and the real world is thin on that night. Im not really sure why Voldemort picked Halloween to kill Lily and James, but I thought that explanation was something interesting to think about as far as the purpose of the veil. Maybe if we do see the veil again, it will be on Halloween....


  #39  
Old November 2nd, 2006, 8:43 pm
GryffSolider  Female.gif GryffSolider is offline
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Re: Cracking the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nreid View Post
I was reading another thread about Why Voldemort chose to kill Lily and James on Halloween. Someone's answer was that it is believed that "the veil of the world is thinnest" on Halloween. (Thats not an exact quote and I apologize to the origninal poster...but you get the point). The idea is that the "veil" between the spiritual world and the real world is thin on that night. Im not really sure why Voldemort picked Halloween to kill Lily and James, but I thought that explanation was something interesting to think about as far as the purpose of the veil. Maybe if we do see the veil again, it will be on Halloween....


Ohhhhh whoever that poster was, may have hit upon something real good, because the original reason for All Hallow's Eve was to honor the dead.


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  #40  
Old November 2nd, 2006, 9:47 pm
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Re: Cracking the Veil

Another thing the four affected by the veil have in common: they've all had near death experiences.
Harry: too many to list.
Ginny: Voldy uses her "life force" or whatever to nearly come out of the diary all the way in CoS. If he'd succeeded, he'd have used up all her energy and she would've died.
Neville: he "nearly died" when his uncle pushed him off a pier, and has been dropped head first out of windows.
Luna: Her mother died when one of her experemental spells went wrong, and Luna was in the room. Yes, this is rather shaky, but really, what are the chanced that the spell only affected Mrs. Lovegood?
Ok, less likely than the stinksap, I know, but I just thought I'd point it out.


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