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#961
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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Molly, on the other hand, was a stay at home mom who probably had no more experience in dueling than what she was taught in her own time at Hogwarts - if she was even taught how to duel at all. Let's face it, she spent 90% of her time doing laundry, making meals and taking care of everyone else but herself. I'm not trying to put stay at home mothers down by saying this, I'm pointing out that Molly was probably less qualified to battle Bellatrix in terms of experience and skill level than Ginny whom she was coming to the rescue of. Ginny, after all, had been personally taught defensive magic by Harry in the DA and had spent the entire previous year making trouble for the Carrows and probably getting into skirmishes with pro-Voldemort students. Molly, in turn, probably spent that previous year doing what she had done for the last 20 years and keeping the Headquarters of the Order in tip-top shape, cooking Order members meals and generally keeping them fueled and ready for battle, a task that really gets no appreciation or recognition but none the less means you have next to no experience fighting people one-on-one. Quote:
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#962
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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![]() No but seriously speaking, I don't even get why Molly needed a kick *** scene. I felt as though the author was trying to jsutify her character and saying that she could do something other than being a stay at home mom but she chose not to. That's okay but for me quite unnecessary. I never considered Molly to be either magically weak or otherwise incompetent of performing any other job. In fact I never questioned her choice to stay at home at all. I thought she seemed frustrated at times and wondered whether she chose something that was considered proper for a woman given that in my opinion the wizarding world is rather conservative as you say. But in my view she didn't need to do anything other than what she did. I understand that motherhood is a great theme in the series and that Molly is the ultimate mother so that needed to be brought out in some way. At the same time though I would have liked her character to get some development and to have her actually join the fight for reasons other than her family being personally attacked. If she needed to fight that is. Quote:
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#963
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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#964
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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#965
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
I think Sereena means all the mothers in the series are defined by their motherhood, whereas the Fathers are allowed to be portrayed as more than Fathers.
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#966
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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In addition to this, on the secondary character levels, we have Luna's single father who's put into an impossible situation using his love for his daughter; Hagrid's fond memories of his father who brought him up and had a huge influence on who Hagrid became; Remus, who would have been one of those missing fathers if it wasn't for Harry who realises that fatherhood and family are more important for a man than more traditionally masculine ideals such as valour and fighting; and Barty Crouch Jr. whose whole persona is a result of an absent (physically and emotionally) father. Even Lucius is given scenes that focus specifically on his being a father. Last edited by Yoana; April 12th, 2012 at 11:09 am. |
#967
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
I'm inclined to agree with you, Yoana and I did at one point but upon further reflection, I've personally come to the conclusion that in the case of Crouch Jr., while at first look, you think Jo is making a point that Crouch is a victim of his father's abandonment and abuse and lack of fatherhood and I suppose you could see it that way, I think Jo wants us to feel disgusted at Crouch Jr. She says she often speaks through Dumbledore and Dumbledore is out-rightly disgusted and unforgiving of Crouch Jr. even after he tells his full story. Dumbledore never tells Harry he pities him like he tells Harry to pity Merope for just not being strong enough. Instead Dumbledore's message at the end of GOF in relation to Crouch Jr. is about how Crouch Jr. even though he was rich and pureblood CHOSE a wrong path, making a point against bigotry and racism and arguing that evil can come from anywhere even the purest of blood and "best" of families.
So while you and I may see Crouch Jr's story as a testament against absent fathers and the importance of fatherhood, I think Jo didn't intend for that. We're not meant to sympathize with him (from her perspective), we're meant to feel that he made his choice and it was his own fault IMO (which I disagree with).
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#968
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
We don't know, though, if any of the women professors/teachers had children. They may well have. And I wouldn't say they were "defined by their motherhood". Neither was Tonks, Andromeda or even Narcissa. And I'd argue that Bella wasn't defined at all by her lack of motherhood, as her cruelty, prejudice and obsession with Voldemort seemed to consume her.
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#969
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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Then... isn't every passion we associate our identity with the same? We're all being defined by our strongest love, which makes it all equal don't you think? Oh dear. I think I need coffee. |
#970
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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Narcissa was very much defined by being a Mom and Family woman, IMO. Andromeda, we rarely see so she doesn't really count. |
#971
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
I agree that it's a hobby but it's once again connected to motherhood as she knits mostly for her children.
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Harry condemns his father for his actions but Lily is not given any thought in a non-motherly context. Arthur distances himself from Percy while Molly simply cries and tries to make things right between them. Harry's relationship to Sirius is once again complicated by the fact that Sirius might see him as another James. With Molly the only problem is that she is overprotective. Dumbledore is blamed for his past mistakes and Harry questions him. I don't know if we can go so far as to call Minerva a mother figure to Harry but even if she were that relationship is also uncomplicated. Mothers are mostly presented as good and devoted to their children while the fathers/faher figures have more complicated relationships. Quote:
Also just because someone is a loving and good mother doesn't necessarily mean she is defined by motherhood. Or rather, it shouldn't be like that. With some of Rowling's characters it is IMO. Quote:
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#972
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
Well, she is depicted as having personal interests in Celestina Warbeck's music and Gilderoy Lockhart's books, although I concede that (a) both of these interests are portrayed - through Harry's viewpoint - as being a bit fangirly and embarrassing (b) both interests are connected to romance - Warbeck's songs are emotional ballads about romantic live and Molly clearly has a big crush on Lockhart, so once again female characters' interests seem to revolve around romantic relationships (c) she is depicted as using Lockhart's books mainly for helpful hints with the housework - again, it's linked into motherhood.
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#973
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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![]() Picture by LaurelSKY from http://laurelsky.deviantart.com/art/...tter-170927604 "Its hooves made no mark on the soft ground as it stared at Harry with its large, silver eyes. Slowly, it bowed its antlered head. And Harry realized..."Prongs..."
- Hermione's Secret, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban |
#974
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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So the fact that we don't see any female teachers in the role of mother then that conveys a message. Quote:
I think perhaps we need to look at the context and that for me is one of the place where real problems arise. Where else in the series do women find satisfaction and meaning? What else motivates them. Men are allowed to be good fathers within the context of the series (although I admit that there aren’t many they are there) but they can also be brilliant thinkers, sports men, defenders of right, duellists, fighters, etc they have multiple options and they can be more than one of these women don’t seem to get the same choice as far as I can remember. ![]() Quote:
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I think the base line for me is that mothers are mothers (and only mothers) but fathers get to be fathers and people and because they are more complicated they impact one the story far more frequently and are dominant in it because of this. Mothers really only impact the story once and that is Lily’s sacrifice. Frankly I think it is a better option to be able to live and have a full life rather than your only role in life being to do one thing and be prepared to die if that’s not enough – or maybe I’m just being too cynical?? Quote:
I think it is easy to look at individual characters with the book (or series) and try to make an assessment of how feminist that makes the book – but that kind of misses the point imo. Context of every character and how they interact is just as important. But added to this we need to look at the world the book paints – and how much of it actually happened on page (eg there are quite a few women in the HP universe history in positions of power but none who we actually get to see on page :/) . Also what qualities and traits are used to portray good/interesting/worthy people and what qualities and traits are used to portray the people one isn’t supposed to trust. Quote:
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#975
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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__________________
![]() Picture by LaurelSKY from http://laurelsky.deviantart.com/art/...tter-170927604 "Its hooves made no mark on the soft ground as it stared at Harry with its large, silver eyes. Slowly, it bowed its antlered head. And Harry realized..."Prongs..."
- Hermione's Secret, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban |
#976
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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I don't think Molly is "defined" by motherhood. She had a life before that, and she participated in the Order. Molly gets page time because she's Ron's mother, Ron is Harry's best friend (and a mother figure to Harry), but that's not the only thing Molly is. She's very committed to caring for her family, but is more complex than that; every person is. I think the point of a feminist viewpoint is recognizing that women are not defined by any one thing.
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#977
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
Hi. I'm new to these forum (this is indeed my first post). I've read quite a few of the previous pages and have been really enjoying the quality of the argument. It may have been raised before but I'll throw in my two bobs' worth on the topic of Molly.
To me she is a character of her time, born in 1949, a child of the 50s, at Hogwarts in the 60s and married and having children in the 70s. Like so many of that era she is a woman being a mum and a housekeeper which was at that time the role that society had for women. In that sense she pre-dates the second wave feminism of the late 20th century. I'm old enough to remember the shock and outrage of Friedan's The Feminine Mystique, and more so the explosions of wrath that Greer's The Female Eunuch inspired. I doubt that Molly, in the conservative wizarding world, would have been exposed to such ideas. And yet she is a character of considerable strength: her support for a rebel organisation, her willingness to stand up for her opinion - to fight her corner - and not least her powerful magic when duelling Bellatrix all, for me, mark her as a very strong individual. My concern in discussions about Molly is that she is seen as just a mum/mom. In the words of Germaine Greer (when speaking of Betty Friedan) "Women don't get the respect they deserve unless they are wielding male-shaped power" Molly may be a modest woman living a pretty ordinary life (though in un-ordinary circumstances) but she wields power, power of a different form. She has, again to quote Greer: "The freedom...to be a person, with dignity, integrity, nobility, passion, pride that constitute personhood. Freedom to run, shout, talk loudly and sit with your knees apart." That to me is Molly. |
#978
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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#979
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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![]() While I strongly disagree with this conclusion I can see how one might get that impression from the ‘set dressing’ - and where it allowed to permeate the story we actually see on page I might agree with it. However it doesn’t seem to and so I feel a rather mixed message is given. Quote:
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This leads me to think about the way gendered qualities and behaviours are used in the series but again I’ll answer it on the Harry Potter: A Feminist Novel? as it applies to more than just the last book. ![]() ![]() ![]() Quote:
![]() Surely if we take your concept that Molly is a product of her era – then she is not a housewife & mother through free choice but because that was the main or only option society provided her with. I don’t have a problem with Molly, or her role within the book per se it is the context with which I have a problem. The predominance of motherhood as the option for women, for the only female characters who as adults don’t become mothers they either take on a surrogate mother role (ie one that provides them the opportunity for continual contact with children whom they can nurture and mould such as teaching) or they are nasty people. It feels to me as if the lack of desire for motherhood is used to portray a basic unpleasantness, even unnaturalness – that for me is another problem.
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#980
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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__________________
![]() People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff... ....I miss David Tennant.... Last edited by HedwigOwl; April 15th, 2012 at 9:26 pm. |
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