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Little Questions Answered v.21



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  #1101  
Old April 2nd, 2015, 7:28 am
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by Kanksha View Post
However, Hermione has already told Harry that the teachers know about her Time Turner. They would have to. So why doesn't Snape realise that this is the solution?
But are you sure that Snape was one of those told?
It also could have been that Snape did know but so upset that he couldn't get the words out propperly.

I believe that for the plot of the book ,Snape had to lose this battle and Harry & co get away with it .

Dumbledore helped Harry & Hermione to go back in time by telling them how far back to go ,so he wouldn't like it if his part in things was know.


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  #1102  
Old April 2nd, 2015, 8:13 am
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by twinsrule26 View Post
But are you sure that Snape was one of those told?
I thought he would know, but I can't find an explicit mention.

So it's possible that McGonagall and Dumbledore are the only ones who know. But then the Ministry issued the Time Turner. There could have been a possibility that Fudge knew about it too. Or found out later when Hermione handed it in. Tricky manoeuvre on Dumbledore's part!

I know for plot reasons it's necessary that Harry and Hermione get away with it, I was just wondering what Snape was thinking.


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  #1103  
Old April 2nd, 2015, 3:21 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by Kanksha View Post
I thought he would know, but I can't find an explicit mention.

So it's possible that McGonagall and Dumbledore are the only ones who know.
Hermione discussed it with McGonagall because she was her head of house. Dumbledore must have known because he was the Headmaster and therefore responsible for everything that was going on in the school. But why would Hermione or anyone else have told Snape about the Time Turner? There was no reason for him to be told so I'm guessing he didn't know.


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  #1104  
Old April 2nd, 2015, 8:20 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

It's possible that Dumbledore was basically saying 'Drop it, NOW' to Snape with his retort and Snape felt he had no choice.


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  #1105  
Old April 2nd, 2015, 10:02 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
It's possible that Dumbledore was basically saying 'Drop it, NOW' to Snape with his retort and Snape felt he had no choice.
That's what I got out of it, that Snape knew--along with the rest of the teachers-- about the Time Turner, and that Dumbledore was basically telling Snape exactly what happened, and letting him know that Dumbledore was in on it, too.


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  #1106  
Old April 6th, 2015, 8:53 am
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
It's possible that Dumbledore was basically saying 'Drop it, NOW' to Snape with his retort and Snape felt he had no choice.
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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
That's what I got out of it, that Snape knew--along with the rest of the teachers-- about the Time Turner, and that Dumbledore was basically telling Snape exactly what happened, and letting him know that Dumbledore was in on it, too.
I think this makes the most sense, thank you!


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  #1107  
Old April 6th, 2015, 2:06 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
It's possible that Dumbledore was basically saying 'Drop it, NOW' to Snape with his retort and Snape felt he had no choice.
Very risky IMO. In the heat of the moment, Snape could very well have spilled the beans about it. Though there wouldn't have been any way to prove it. Must be one of the reasons he stressed to them not to be seen.


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  #1108  
Old April 7th, 2015, 8:19 am
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

A bigger question this time, I'm upto DH now and this is about the Imperius Curse.

When the gang are attempting to break into Gringotts, Harry puts the Imperius Curse upon both the DE Travers and the goblin Bogrod. As he turns his attention to other things, both of them stand still looking blank, until he gives them further commands. He tells Travers to go and hide, and Bogrod to take them forward to the Lestranges' vault.

My question is, if you need to be constantly monitoring the person you've put the Imperius Curse on, how does it work long-term? Barty Crouch Jr. was Imperiused for years, how could Barty Crouch Sr. have gone to the Ministry and continued his work if he had to keep a constant eye on what his son was doing? Even if we say that he had Winky to closely watch over Crouch Jr., Draco had Madam Rosmerta Imperiused as well; how could he be at school attending classes and trying to fix the Vanishing Cabinet while Rosmerta continued to tend bar at the Three Broomsticks?


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  #1109  
Old April 7th, 2015, 2:38 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

I don't think you needed constant monitoring for the curse. Just proper instructions. So the long-term ones would be "Act normal and go about your everyday business as usual but <do_special_job>"


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  #1110  
Old April 10th, 2015, 3:03 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

This is very speculative- but since Rowling has said that her original plan was for Tonks (and Lupin) to survive the final battle, do you think this means that Tonks was originally supposed to win the duel against Bellatrix? Or that there wouldn't have been a confrontation between the two at all?


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  #1111  
Old April 10th, 2015, 6:50 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
This is very speculative- but since Rowling has said that her original plan was for Tonks (and Lupin) to survive the final battle, do you think this means that Tonks was originally supposed to win the duel against Bellatrix? Or that there wouldn't have been a confrontation between the two at all?
I suspect that it wouldn't have happened at all. That particular duel happened off-page, so the only written change would have been in the aftermath.


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  #1112  
Old April 10th, 2015, 6:51 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
This is very speculative- but since Rowling has said that her original plan was for Tonks (and Lupin) to survive the final battle, do you think this means that Tonks was originally supposed to win the duel against Bellatrix? Or that there wouldn't have been a confrontation between the two at all?
I suspect she planned all along for Molly to take down Trixie, so no, no duel between her and Tonks. Did Bellatrix kill Tonks?


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  #1113  
Old April 10th, 2015, 8:06 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by snapes_witch View Post
I suspect she planned all along for Molly to take down Trixie, so no, no duel between her and Tonks. Did Bellatrix kill Tonks?
Voldemort gave Bellatrix the task of cleaning up her family tree by getting rid of Tonks .Who had in Voldemort's mind disgraced the Black family by marrying a Werewolf.
I don't recall if it was said that she did kill Tonks , but she was sure trying very hard to, so I guess she did.


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  #1114  
Old April 10th, 2015, 8:21 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by cardinalguy View Post
I suspect that it wouldn't have happened at all. That particular duel happened off-page, so the only written change would have been in the aftermath.
Well, the whole Tonks-Bella subplot would have to go, not just the duel. Voldemort giving her the order and Bella trying to kill Tonks in the Seven Potters as well as Tonks saying she wants to kill Bella would have to be taken out. Otherwise the whole thing would lead nowhere. That's why I thought that perhaps the original plan was that the subplot would lead to Bella's death by Tonks's hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twinsrule26
I don't recall if it was said that she did kill Tonks , but she was sure trying very hard to, so I guess she did.
Rowling confirmed she did in an interview. It says so on Pottermore as well.



Last edited by Sereena; April 10th, 2015 at 8:28 pm.
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  #1115  
Old April 11th, 2015, 1:30 am
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
Well, the whole Tonks-Bella subplot would have to go, not just the duel. Voldemort giving her the order and Bella trying to kill Tonks in the Seven Potters as well as Tonks saying she wants to kill Bella would have to be taken out. Otherwise the whole thing would lead nowhere. That's why I thought that perhaps the original plan was that the subplot would lead to Bella's death by Tonks's hand.
Or we would see Tonks's death by Bella's hand. I don't mind the ambiguity and off-page deaths, but, narratively, there is a bit of an anticlimax in not seeing the realization of Bellatrix's efforts to remove the family "canker" (and repeated mentions of such).


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  #1116  
Old April 11th, 2015, 2:03 am
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Or we would see Tonks's death by Bella's hand. I don't mind the ambiguity and off-page deaths, but, narratively, there is a bit of an anticlimax in not seeing the realization of Bellatrix's efforts to remove the family "canker" (and repeated mentions of such).
Bella told Ron that blood traitor is next to mudblood. Perhaps the duel with Molly was intended as a substitute?

I would rather have seen Bella v Tonks, though!


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  #1117  
Old April 11th, 2015, 9:04 am
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Or we would see Tonks's death by Bella's hand.
Hm, I'm not sure that was ever the plan. I mean, the fact that it happened off page is sort of an indication of the fact that it was put in there at the last minute because Tonks wasn't supposed to die. But I'm sure that if the plan was for Tonks to kill Bellatrix, then we would have seen that on page.

I guess the reason why I don't believe Molly vs Bella was always the plan is because of some of Rowling's statements as to how she was upset that some people saw Molly as "just a mother" and she wanted to show she was more than that. It's kind of like she was suddenly saying "Oh yeah, you think she's just a mother? Well, I'll give her a villain to defeat so there!"

So this, combined with her statements that Tonks wasn't supposed to die, made me wonder whether the original plan was that Tonks would kill Bellatrix.

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Originally Posted by purplehawk View Post
Bella told Ron that blood traitor is next to mudblood. Perhaps the duel with Molly was intended as a substitute?
Maybe, that's an interesting point. Maybe it is supposed to be some sort of foreshadowing, although it would have been more obvious if Bella had chosen Ron to torture.


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  #1118  
Old April 11th, 2015, 5:34 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
Hm, I'm not sure that was ever the plan. I mean, the fact that it happened off page is sort of an indication of the fact that it was put in there at the last minute because Tonks wasn't supposed to die. But I'm sure that if the plan was for Tonks to kill Bellatrix, then we would have seen that on page.

I guess the reason why I don't believe Molly vs Bella was always the plan is because of some of Rowling's statements as to how she was upset that some people saw Molly as "just a mother" and she wanted to show she was more than that. It's kind of like she was suddenly saying "Oh yeah, you think she's just a mother? Well, I'll give her a villain to defeat so there!"

So this, combined with her statements that Tonks wasn't supposed to die, made me wonder whether the original plan was that Tonks would kill Bellatrix.
I'm not sure that putting those two things together means anything. I think that the statement about Tonks can be connected more to Harry and his being orphaned when he was just a baby, and Teddy being orphaned in a similar way. It's both an irony that Harry is Teddy's godfather, and a positive that Harry is in a unique position to understand Teddy's feelings growing up. To me, this makes much more sense as to why she decided later that Tonks would die. Otherwise, I see no reason at all why she'd pick Tonks to kill Bella.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereena
Maybe, that's an interesting point. Maybe it is supposed to be some sort of foreshadowing, although it would have been more obvious if Bella had chosen Ron to torture.
It seems that overall in the series that DE's disdain mudbloods more than pure-blood traitors, so it seems to me that Hermione was the logical choice for Bella to torture.


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  #1119  
Old April 13th, 2015, 6:11 am
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
Very risky IMO. In the heat of the moment, Snape could very well have spilled the beans about it. Though there wouldn't have been any way to prove it. Must be one of the reasons he stressed to them not to be seen.
I think the fact that Snape could not prove anything is what it came down to. The ministry already knew that Hermione had a time turner because she had to apply for it and McGonagall had to vouch for her in order for them to approve her to have one - which means it is most likely that Fudge was aware she had one as well. The teachers knew about it because Hermione's class schedule required her to be in multiple classes during the same time frame.

The question at hand was not really how would it be possible for Harry and Hermione to be in two places at the same time. The question was how could they have left the infirmary and returned without Dumbledore or Madame Pomfrey catching them. The first part - leaving - would be answered by the time turner - going back three hours meant they could leave without suspicion because nothing had happened yet and they hadn't been confined to the infirmary three hours before. But the second part - returning - was more complicated because Dumbledore had locked the door personally and Madame Pomfrey confirmed that Harry and Hermione had been there the entire time since the door had been locked. Which was the truth since they returned and Dumbledore let them back in before he locked the door.

Basically, Snape would have had to accuse Dumbledore of aiding and abetting a believed murderer to escape because the only way for Harry and Hermione to have used the time turner and get back into the infirmary without Madame Pomfrey being aware that they had ever left was for Dumbledore to have helped them get back in. Dumbledore tied Snape's hands very deliberately there - and they both knew it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanksha View Post
A bigger question this time, I'm upto DH now and this is about the Imperius Curse.

When the gang are attempting to break into Gringotts, Harry puts the Imperius Curse upon both the DE Travers and the goblin Bogrod. As he turns his attention to other things, both of them stand still looking blank, until he gives them further commands. He tells Travers to go and hide, and Bogrod to take them forward to the Lestranges' vault.

My question is, if you need to be constantly monitoring the person you've put the Imperius Curse on, how does it work long-term? Barty Crouch Jr. was Imperiused for years, how could Barty Crouch Sr. have gone to the Ministry and continued his work if he had to keep a constant eye on what his son was doing? Even if we say that he had Winky to closely watch over Crouch Jr., Draco had Madam Rosmerta Imperiused as well; how could he be at school attending classes and trying to fix the Vanishing Cabinet while Rosmerta continued to tend bar at the Three Broomsticks?
It does not appear that constant monitoring was necessary. Lucius used the Imperius curse on Sturgis Podmore in OOTP to have him attempt to break in to the DoM and retrieve the prophecy for Voldemort. Lucius was nowhere near the ministry when the attempt was made so he was not constantly monitoring the curse. It would seem that it is only necessary to give proper instructions and the spell lasts until either the castor lifts it or it is broken some other way - countercurse or the person fighting it like Harry did.

We see that with other spells as well. For example, the leg locker curse Malfoy hexed Neville with - his legs were stuck together until Hermione performed the countercurse. In most cases, all that is needed is for the spell to be cast. Someone under the Imperius curse will follow whatever instructions they are given as long as they are under the spell - or until new instructions are given. The castor would only need to be present to change the instructions.


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  #1120  
Old April 15th, 2015, 2:00 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
Basically, Snape would have had to accuse Dumbledore of aiding and abetting a believed murderer to escape because the only way for Harry and Hermione to have used the time turner and get back into the infirmary without Madame Pomfrey being aware that they had ever left was for Dumbledore to have helped them get back in. Dumbledore tied Snape's hands very deliberately there - and they both knew it.
I do like this explanation. Clever, clever Dumbledore

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
It does not appear that constant monitoring was necessary. Lucius used the Imperius curse on Sturgis Podmore in OOTP to have him attempt to break in to the DoM and retrieve the prophecy for Voldemort. Lucius was nowhere near the ministry when the attempt was made so he was not constantly monitoring the curse. It would seem that it is only necessary to give proper instructions and the spell lasts until either the castor lifts it or it is broken some other way - countercurse or the person fighting it like Harry did.

We see that with other spells as well. For example, the leg locker curse Malfoy hexed Neville with - his legs were stuck together until Hermione performed the countercurse. In most cases, all that is needed is for the spell to be cast. Someone under the Imperius curse will follow whatever instructions they are given as long as they are under the spell - or until new instructions are given. The castor would only need to be present to change the instructions.
This is what I always believed too, but it doesn't add up in the context of the Gringotts escapade. Because Travers and Bogrod don't continue their lives as per normal after having done what Harry asked them to do, they stand around looking vacant, making it quite evident that they've been Imperiused.

Deathly Hallows, pg. 429Harry acted without thinking; pointing his wand at Travers, he muttered, 'Imperio!' once more.
'Oh, yes I see,' said Travers, looking down at Bellatrix's wand, 'yes, very handsome. And is it working well? I always think wands require a little breaking in, don't you?'
.
.
Travers was now standing quite still with his mouth hanging wide open. Ron was drawing attention to this odd phenomenon by regarding Travers with confusion.
.
.
Harry looked back at Travers, who was still rooted to the spot looking abnormally vacant, and made his decision: with a flick of his wand he made Travers come with them, walking meekly in their wake as they reached the door and passed into the rough stone passageway beyond, which was lit with flaming torches.

Harry has to redirect attention to Travers in order to make him come along. As they enter the dark hall with the carts and have their discussion about how to proceed, Bogrod and Travers are once again standing there looking blank. In fact, Harry has to cast the curse on Travers again.

Deathly Hallows, pg. 430Harry pointed his wand at Travers.
'Imperio!'
The wizard turned and set off along the dark track at a smart pace.
'What are you maing him do?'
'Hide,' said Harry, as he pointed his wand at Bogrod, who whistled to summon a little cart which came trundling along the tracks towards them out of the darkness.

Later on as they reach the vaults, Harry has to turn his wand on Bogrod yet again to make him press his palm to the door of the vault and unlock it.

Do we simply attribute this to a combination of Harry's inexperience with the Imperius Curse and not having his own wand? Perhaps he does not know how to cast it strongly enough? Draco after all is able to keep controlling Rosmerta through most of the school year but he must have been properly taught how to do so. Or can anyone offer a better explanation?


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Last edited by Kanksha; April 15th, 2015 at 2:05 pm. Reason: Made a point clearer
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