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Little Questions Answered v.21



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  #201  
Old October 13th, 2012, 11:44 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lily - not to ask her to "step aside." Voldemort, who feared death and did not understand love, would not understand why Lily did not accept the offer. However, since Voldemort didn't himself care if Lily lived, he was fine with killing her if she didn't accept it. He only made the offer in the first place because Snape asked him to spare her.
That was my point - Snape did not want Voldemort to give Lily a choice in the matter. Snape would have been happy with Lily under the Full Body Bind, forced to watch the murder of her child. That is the way in which Lily did not think like Snape or Voldemort. Snape did not ask Voldemort to give Lily a choice. IMO, Voldemort was not keeping any promises whatsoever when he gave Lily a choice. Voldemort was playing his own games when he offered Lily a choice. That was his own idea, and it was not in any way keeping a promise to Snape. The offer was not keeping his promise because Snape's request was for Lily to be spared, not given a choice - Lily's feelings on the matter didn't come into it at all.

Merrymarge - Voldemort didn't need to offer Lily a choice to spare her. He had a wand, she did not. He could have used the Full Body Bind or Stupefy. He could have conjured ropes to bind her, away from Harry. He could have Imperiused her into moving aside. There were many things he could have done that did not involve giving Lily a choice in the matter.


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  #202  
Old October 13th, 2012, 11:49 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
That was my point - Snape did not want Voldemort to give Lily a choice in the matter. Snape would have been happy with Lily under the Full Body Bind, forced to watch the murder of her child. Snape did not ask Voldemort to give Lily a choice. IMO, Voldemort was not keeping any promises whatsoever when he gave Lily a choice. Voldemort was playing his own games when he offered Lily a choice. That was his own idea, and it was not in any way keeping a promise to Snape. The offer was not keeping his promise because Snape's request was for Lily to be spared, not given a choice - Lily's feelings on the matter didn't come into it at all.
But, Voldemort would never have given Lily the choice had Snape not asked him to spare her. He would have killed her immediately, like he killed James.

Lily could have chosen to live and he would have spared her, but like many mothers in the same situation, she didn't.


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  #203  
Old October 13th, 2012, 11:54 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

Thank goodness for Lily!! I think her sacrifice made all the difference in the world. If she didn't, Harry couldn't have sacrificed himself for all his fellow classmates.


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  #204  
Old October 13th, 2012, 11:57 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
But, Voldemort would never have given Lily the choice had Snape not asked him to spare her. He would have killed her immediately, like he killed James.

Lily could have chosen to live and he would have spared her, but like many mothers in the same situation, she didn't.
Snape never wanted Lily to be given a choice. Even he knew that Lily wouldn't step aside and watch her baby be murdered. The choice was Voldemort's idea. He liked that particular mindgame, so maybe he would have played the same game anyway. If he had been honouring Snape's request, at all, he would have just moved Lily aside right away - no need to talk or give her a choice. Giving Lily a choice was definitely not keeping any kind of promise to Snape, and Voldemort didn't need help from Snape or anyone else in coming up with cruel ideas like the offer. Voldemort had to kill James immediately, because he was trying to buy time for Lily to escape with Harry. He had plenty of time with Lily - Harry wasn't going anywhere.


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  #205  
Old October 13th, 2012, 11:59 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

It all went back to Snape's love for Lily. Wonder what would have happened if a female Death Eater was in love with James. Imagine Bellatrix or Alecto Carrow in love with James. Haha LOL!

Anyway, while Harry is toatlly awesome, this shows he couldn't have done it alone. You always need people and love in your life. That's what makes it worth living.


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  #206  
Old October 14th, 2012, 12:30 am
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

Without his friends, and the protection his mother gave him, Harry wouldn't have made it past the first book.

What I don't get is why the series keeps treating Harry like his is a unique case. There have to have been others who got this "ancient protection" from a loved one sacrificing themselves for them. Lily's was not a unique case at all.


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  #207  
Old October 14th, 2012, 12:36 am
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

Lily and Harry's situation was unique. Or maybe it happened some time before but no one checked up on it. Voldemort being arrogant and thinking love is meaningless would not have looked it up. It would be rare to find a case like that. Even if it did occur it may not have been recorded.


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  #208  
Old October 14th, 2012, 12:57 am
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

That's what I think. Voldemort being involved just made Harry's case much more high-profile, whereas previous cases of "Love Protection" magic were too obscure to be noticed by major media.


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  #209  
Old October 14th, 2012, 4:10 am
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

Also, in literary terms, Harry is the Hero so he's a little bit more special/unique.


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  #210  
Old October 14th, 2012, 5:46 am
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
Yes, but I think you misunderstand my question. I'm objecting to how Lily's actions are described. In the book it says that Lily died to save Harry while a more accurate description would, in my opinion, have been Lily died while trying to save Harry. Lily never actually traded her life for Harry's. She just chose not to step aside. Her death doesn't help Harry one bit.
Lily did actually trade her life for Harry's although she didn't know her death would save him. But it did - immediately. The fact that she stood between her son and death and took the AK, futile though the attempt may have seemed, appears to have been all that was needed to trigger the Ancient Magic.
Quote:
Compare this to Harry's sacrifice in DH. He does it so Voldemort won't hurt his friends. He actually exchanges his life for theirs. This is not what Lily did. This is what she tried to do but she was never given the opportunity since Voldemort wanted to kill Harry not her. Dying alongside someone and dying for someone are two completely different things, IMO, even if it is by choice.
Technically of course, Harry didn't die. He intended and expected to but didn't. That, he said, was enough to trigger the magic. Which makes me think that the Ancient Magic was more complex than the simple result of a sacrifice in the sense that you give up your life for another. Lily was attempting to protect her son even though it may have seemed hopeless, but she did it all the same. Voldemort would only reach her baby over her dead body.


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  #211  
Old October 14th, 2012, 8:58 am
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

I'm going to reply in the Plot Holes since this one is for little questions (hopefully that one won't turn into a Snape war, heh).


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  #212  
Old October 14th, 2012, 9:40 am
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by cool_chick_div View Post
It all went back to Snape's love for Lily. Wonder what would have happened if a female Death Eater was in love with James. Imagine Bellatrix or Alecto Carrow in love with James. Haha LOL!
Lily's love for Harry is what saved him. If Snape had had his way, Lily would have survived and be left to grieve for her husband and baby. Harry's survival was a big disappointment for Snape.

I think James would be quite creeped out if sadists like Bella or Alecto "loved" him.

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
What I don't get is why the series keeps treating Harry like his is a unique case. There have to have been others who got this "ancient protection" from a loved one sacrificing themselves for them. Lily's was not a unique case at all.
Lily's case was different, because she was given an opportunity to "live" and turned it down. Many people sacrifice themselves for loved ones, but were they given a distinct offer to just step aside and "live"?

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That's what I think. Voldemort being involved just made Harry's case much more high-profile, whereas previous cases of "Love Protection" magic were too obscure to be noticed by major media.
But I think it would have been known if other people had gone around with lightning scars because of surviving a Killing Curse. Unless it had been so long ago, it had been lost in the mists of time.


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  #213  
Old October 14th, 2012, 11:52 am
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

Just on the murder of Lily and James; is there no way that they could have just apparated or escaped with floo powder or something when they realised that Voldemort had arrived? Did the Fidelius charm mean that couldn't happen at that location?

Also, I can't really comprehend the whole unplottable concept. How is it possible for someone, who knows where a building etc. is, to not be physically able to put a dot on a piece of paper? I guess it's just one of those "don't ask, it's magic" things.


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  #214  
Old October 14th, 2012, 1:53 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

Voldemort found standing aside when the offer was made to be “sensible,” and thus in love-vacuum Voldy-think, he probably fully expected that yes, Lily would "do the math" and decide that, sigh, much as she didn’t like the idea, it only made logical sense and to shrug and stand aside when all was said and done.

But being a power-mad nutjob, he probably felt that making her stand aside of her own volition (rather than Binding, Imperius, whatever) was a small thing to ask her to do on purpose to show she was bowing to his wishes. When she didn’t do the “sensible” thing and wouldn't bow her head in submission and do the minor thing of moving to receive the magnanimous favor I’m sure he felt he was offering on Snape’s behalf, I think he "lost it" a little bit and the concept of his agreement with Snape sort of went out of his mind.

How did what she did become a powerful magical sacrifice? Lily's “sacrifice" may have been activated in that she offered to trade herself for Harry--it could be that the magic was in what she intended to do rather than in what actually happened...similar to Harry's later intended "sacrifice."

Or what made it a "sacrifice" may have been in the fact that she could have lived the rest of her life but instead chose to live a life of only a few more seconds, using those seconds to 'stay' and defend Harry to the best of her ability, to stand in front of him and, knowing it was hopeless, certainly far less than even a one in a million chance, but chose those few seconds instead of a lifetime, for the miniscule chance to be there with Harry for a couple moments more, to be there with him to try to say or do something, anything, that might miraculously somehow make any difference.


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Old October 14th, 2012, 5:03 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Lily's love for Harry is what saved him. If Snape had had his way, Lily would have survived and be left to grieve for her husband and baby. Harry's survival was a big disappointment for Snape.
I totally disagree about this. Snape couldn't have cared less whether baby Harry lived or died so, to me, there was no great disappointment that Harry survived. It's clear from Snape's meeting with Dumbledore that Snape only thought of baby Harry in terms of something that could be traded to save Lily, the fine print he had to agree to in order to buy protection for Lily. Snape cared whether Lily lived or died; Harry was an after thought to Snape.

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But I think it would have been known if other people had gone around with lightning scars because of surviving a Killing Curse. Unless it had been so long ago, it had been lost in the mists of time.
Since Harry is the only case we ever hear about, we don't know for certain if everyone who receives love protection gets a lightning shaped scar. We don't actually even know if they are physically scared at all since, at least to me, the scar doesn't seem the result of the love protection, it seems the result of the fact that Voldemort was intending to create a horcrux again soon and his soul was so unstable that when the curse rebounded he was blasted apart. the soul fragment then attached itself to Harry inside his lightning scar. To me the scar is more to do with the horcrux thing than the love protection thing.


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Old October 14th, 2012, 6:41 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
Yes, but I think you misunderstand my question. I'm objecting to how Lily's actions are described. In the book it says that Lily died to save Harry while a more accurate description would, in my opinion, have been Lily died while trying to save Harry. Lily never actually traded her life for Harry's. She just chose not to step aside. Her death doesn't help Harry one bit.

Compare this to Harry's sacrifice in DH. He does it so Voldemort won't hurt his friends. He actually exchanges his life for theirs. This is not what Lily did. This is what she tried to do but she was never given the opportunity since Voldemort wanted to kill Harry not her. Dying alongside someone and dying for someone are two completely different things, IMO, even if it is by choice.
Actually, it is the same. If you go back and read DH, after Harry is wounded by Nagini and they escape -- Harry's state makes him vulnerable to the mind connection with Voldemort, and what we (and Harry) experience is Voldemort's recollection of the night he tried to kill Harry. While it does seem that Voldemort is attempting to honor Snape's request, Lily very clearly is asking Voldemort "not Harry, kill me instead". So when Voldemort kills Lily (he had other choices as noted, he could have stunned her, for example) he is accepting her offer made out of love, to kill her instead of Harry. Voldemort was his own undoing. Lily's choice made it possible for Voldemort to unintentionally do as she asked. Her life for Harry's.


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  #217  
Old October 14th, 2012, 6:50 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

So, even if he fully intended to still kill Harry anyways, by killing Lily he entered into some kind of unspoken agreement with her not to kill him?

Basically, he agreed to her terms without realizing it?


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  #218  
Old October 14th, 2012, 7:13 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
So, even if he fully intended to still kill Harry anyways, by killing Lily he entered into some kind of unspoken agreement with her not to kill him?

Basically, he agreed to her terms without realizing it?
Yes. Once Voldemort accepted the terms of Lily's request (by killing her), he was no longer able to kill Harry. In GOF we hear him tell the DE's that it was old magic he had forgotten about.


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  #219  
Old October 14th, 2012, 7:31 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
I totally disagree about this. Snape couldn't have cared less whether baby Harry lived or died so, to me, there was no great disappointment that Harry survived. It's clear from Snape's meeting with Dumbledore that Snape only thought of baby Harry in terms of something that could be traded to save Lily, the fine print he had to agree to in order to buy protection for Lily. Snape cared whether Lily lived or died; Harry was an after thought to Snape.
Snape resented the fact that Lily was able to protect her son, that Lily chose to protect her son, and that Harry had survived instead of Lily. IMO, yes, Harry's survival was a big disappointment to the man who had hoped to buy Lily's life with the death of her son.It was a huge disappointment to Snape that Lily was not left devastated and grieving, that instead she was able to protect the most important person in her life.

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
Actually, it is the same. If you go back and read DH, after Harry is wounded by Nagini and they escape -- Harry's state makes him vulnerable to the mind connection with Voldemort, and what we (and Harry) experience is Voldemort's recollection of the night he tried to kill Harry. While it does seem that Voldemort is attempting to honor Snape's request, Lily very clearly is asking Voldemort "not Harry, kill me instead". So when Voldemort kills Lily (he had other choices as noted, he could have stunned her, for example) he is accepting her offer made out of love, to kill her instead of Harry. Voldemort was his own undoing. Lily's choice made is possible for Voldemort to unintentionally do as she asked. Her life for Harry's.
Good point - Voldemort could have moved Lily aside, but chose to kill her. He could have moved her aside without ever making a twisted offer as he did. Lily made a counter-offer; kill me instead. However, I don't know how it would be accepted as a binding magical agreement - other magical agreements we see, like the Goblet of Fire and the Unbreakable Vow don't act of their own accord - they need someone to put their names in the Goblet or make the Vow. I don't think magical agreements can be just triggered when nobody intends to make one.


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  #220  
Old October 14th, 2012, 7:35 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.21

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
Yes. Once Voldemort accepted the terms of Lily's request (by killing her), he was no longer able to kill Harry. In GOF we hear him tell the DE's that it was old magic he had forgotten about.
This seems to be your personal explanation and while it is interesting I don't see any basis in canon for it. Voldemort never agreed to Lily's sacrifice. The fact that Lily offers it in no way makes Voldemort obligated to accept it. Otherwise all wizards would, while in danger, offer to make such sacrifices just to make sure the wizard intending to kill them or their families becomes unable to do so. As far as I recall, there is nothing which coerces Voldemort into accepting Lily's sacrifice.


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