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Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v.5



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  #81  
Old January 11th, 2017, 9:46 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v.5

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Originally Posted by BrianTung View Post
I always felt that Dumbledore was cavalier about a great many things, not just this. He seemed focused to the point of distraction on the big picture. I'll have to read over the scene in question again, but off the cuff, my impression is that Dumbledore felt that what Snape had heard of the prophecy was incomplete (wasn't it? I don't recall), and that some hay could be made by letting Voldemort have a partial picture of the situation.
It was incomplete, yes. Voldemort only heard the part about the boy being born at the end of July and having powers he doesn't possess. It was still enough to make Voldemort go out and kill someone, as we know. I think you could be right that maybe Dumbledore wanted to see how things unfold and that's why he just let Snape go but I wonder if even Dumbledore can be that cruel? He had no problem sacrificing people for an important purpose but this didn't seem to have much point (unless we're assuming he knew Harry would survive and Voldemort would vanish but there's no way he could have known Snape would ask Voldemort to spare Lily's life).

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Honestly, given the extent that time and memory could be screwed with, it's a surprise that anyone believed anything they heard about something that important
So you're saying Voldmeort shouldn't have believed Snape because it could have all been a trick? I guess it's possible but it's perfectly in Voldemort's character to be quick to eliminate something or someone he perceives as a threat to him.


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  #82  
Old January 11th, 2017, 11:34 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v.5

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Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
It was incomplete, yes. Voldemort only heard the part about the boy being born at the end of July and having powers he doesn't possess. It was still enough to make Voldemort go out and kill someone, as we know. I think you could be right that maybe Dumbledore wanted to see how things unfold and that's why he just let Snape go but I wonder if even Dumbledore can be that cruel? He had no problem sacrificing people for an important purpose but this didn't seem to have much point (unless we're assuming he knew Harry would survive and Voldemort would vanish but there's no way he could have known Snape would ask Voldemort to spare Lily's life).
I don't think it was a matter of cruelty. I think he would have disagreed that it was not an important purpose. I imagine he thought it gave him a tactical advantage, and was willing to incur substantial damage to use it.

I really don't know, though. If we might step out of universe for a moment, I think a lot of this is on Rowling's portrayal. As with any author, she has a general notion of where the story is going to go—more than the readers, at any rate. As a result, she was surely blind to some what-if possibilities that actual people in that situation would surely have been alert to. If you know that a character is going to succeed in a task, you as the author are prone to understate, to an extent, the risks that character puts themselves and others in, because in retrospect, those risks are seen as worth it. Upfront, of course, they might not be.

We know that Voldemort will be defeated, that Snape's report to Voldemort had repercussions that ultimately led in some small way to Voldemort's demise. But you're right that Dumbledore in that moment could not have known this. The best I can come up with is to posit some tactical advantage he felt he could gain by allowing Snape to make his report. But ultimately, I can't know this, nor do I think it's really knowable in any meaningful way.


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So you're saying Voldmeort shouldn't have believed Snape because it could have all been a trick? I guess it's possible but it's perfectly in Voldemort's character to be quick to eliminate something or someone he perceives as a threat to him.
No, I intended my comment much more generally: I find it interesting that trust wasn't more of an issue overall. However, speaking of the situation specifically, it may be that memory charms of the sort that would fool Voldemort were rare, so that he would generally have trusted Snape. (He might have felt, likely with some reason, that Snape would have been more resistant to such tampering.)


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  #83  
Old February 4th, 2017, 6:35 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v.5

There wasn't much Dumbledore could do to prevent Snape from telling it to Voldemort in any case. Memory charms wouldn't hold. The only other option would be to forcibly keep him away from Voldemort - which would raise suspicion.

I don't remember now but Dumbledore didn't really believe in prophecies did he?


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  #84  
Old February 10th, 2017, 7:46 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v.5

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There wasn't much Dumbledore could do to prevent Snape from telling it to Voldemort in any case. Memory charms wouldn't hold. The only other option would be to forcibly keep him away from Voldemort - which would raise suspicion.
I think you may be right; there may have been an element of expediency in his decision. Of course, it didn't look particularly good from some angles, but Dumbledore didn't seem to care much about looking weak in the minds of some people; it tended to cause them to underestimate him.

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I don't remember now but Dumbledore didn't really believe in prophecies did he?
My recollection is that he put store in them, but he understood (or believed he understood) that they were often not fait accompli; they often came true in unexpected ways, much like the Oracle at Delphi. For instance, he observed that even after Voldemort heard the prophecy, he could have chosen to disregard it, and protected himself thereby. But if he had, he would not have been the Voldemort he in fact was. So the prophecy was in part an observation that Voldemort was the sort of person he was, rather than a predetermination of how Voldemort would act.

What's more, Dumbledore also pointed out that in striking out at the person he believed the prophecy to refer to (viz, Harry), he enabled that person to defeat him. Harry, otherwise, might have been a somewhat nimble but otherwise unremarkable wizard boy who went through Hogwarts, led the house Quidditch team, got a mix of O's and E's in his OWLs, and worked his way up to a comfortable job in the Ministry. Instead, perhaps, just because Potter seemed somewhat less unprepossessing a name than Longbottom, or maybe it was some other reason entirely, he ended up having a fragment of Voldemort lodged in his forehead and being the focal point of the resistance against the Dark Lord. Law of unintended consequences, writ very large.


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  #85  
Old February 11th, 2017, 5:09 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v.5

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Originally Posted by BrianTung View Post
Instead, perhaps, just because Potter seemed somewhat less unprepossessing a name than Longbottom, or maybe it was some other reason entirely, he ended up having a fragment of Voldemort lodged in his forehead and being the focal point of the resistance against the Dark Lord. Law of unintended consequences, writ very large.
Personally I think Harry was the one marked simply because Voldemort got to him first. I have no doubt Voldemort would have gone after Neville had he succeeded in killing Harry. I also believe that his inner circle knew of the Potters' and Longbottoms' significance (though likely ignorant of why they were significant), which would explain the attack on Frank and Alice; refusing to believe the tales that Harry had toppled the Dark Lord, they instead decide that Voldemort's other primary target, the Longbottom family, were somehow responsible, or at least knew something. They just had to wait for them to come out of hiding.


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