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Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 24th, 2007, 2:41 am
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Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

I know Grindy's a bit of a dead horse in the HP world, but you guys should hear me out. I've heard a lot of theory's that Grindelwald was the first to create Horcruxes and I think this works perfectly with the following theory: Voldemort left Hogwarts in 1944 and, according to DumbleDore "'After leavng Hogwarts Voldemort fraternised with the very worst of our kind'" We all know that Grindelwald wasn't defeated until 1945. Although Slughorn told Tom Riddle what Horcruxes were, who better than Grindy to tell him how to make them? Let me know what you think!

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  #2  
Old March 24th, 2007, 2:51 am
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Re: Grindelwald

I think this idea makes some sense.We don't know who Riddle learned from after Hogwarts,why not Grindelwald.Could this also be why Tom hated Dumble dore so much,because he killed his mentor Grindelwald?


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Old March 24th, 2007, 2:57 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Amazing. Brilliant. I love you!


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Old March 24th, 2007, 3:01 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Seems quite plausable, as he had to have learnt at least some of his dark magic from someone else, and he wouldn't have been taught that at Hogwarts, and also, is it not so that Darth Vader was taught and brought to the dark side by th Emperor


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Old March 24th, 2007, 3:11 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

I've always liked this theory myself. It makes nice chronological sense for Grindelwald to have mentored Tom over the summers when he was at Hogwarts and possibly for a year or so after he graduated.

Tom Riddle walked into Slughorn's office knowing how to create a horcrux. His question was not "how" but "how many". This strongly suggests the existence of a powerful dark mentor and who better than Grindelwald?


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Old March 24th, 2007, 3:30 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessica View Post
Tom Riddle walked into Slughorn's office knowing how to create a horcrux. His question was not "how" but "how many". This strongly suggests the existence of a powerful dark mentor and who better than Grindelwald?
After re-reading it now, the conversation between Slughorn and Tom was mostly about "how" and later they started to read about "how many". For me it's that Tom knew about Horcruxes, but wanted to learn from Slughorn "how" to create them, otherwise why nagging so much about that?

Grindelwald died in 1945 and Tom was 19 back then. And as Slughorn didn't want to tell him how to create them, Tom still had alot of time after leaving school to learn it from Grindelwald himself.

How do you think could they have met?


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Old March 24th, 2007, 3:43 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Well,Tom did travel so I suppose he could have met him in any of the "dark" places he went.I'm assuming he went to hang out in the places where wizards who knew more than what you were taught in school knew.Maybe foreign wizards.Didn't Durmstrang students learn some dark arts at there school?Maybe I'm wrong.I thought I read that somewhere.


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Old March 24th, 2007, 3:47 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Great theory, it makes a lot of sense.


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Old March 24th, 2007, 3:47 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessica
Tom Riddle walked into Slughorn's office knowing how to create a horcrux. His question was not "how" but "how many". This strongly suggests the existence of a powerful dark mentor and who better than Grindelwald?
As TENSHI said, Tom Riddle did not know how to create Horcruxes when he interrogated Slughorn:
HBP, Horcruxes, Pages 497 and 498, American, HB"A Horcrux is the word used for an object in which a person has concealed part of their soul."
"I don't quite understand how that works, though, sir," said Riddle.
His voice was carefully controlled, but Harry could sense his excitement.
.....
But Riddle's hunger was now apparent; his expression was greedy, he could no longer hide his longing.
"How do you split your soul?"
"Well," said Slughorn uncomforably, "you must understand that the soul is supposed to remain intact and whole. splitting it is an act of violation..."
"But how do you do it?"
...
"Encase? But how -?"

This shows that Riddle was still unsure about how Horcruxes worked, and how to create them. However, not receiving a 'good enough' answer, I would assume that he would venture to find someone who could tell him more about Horcruxes. Thus, I also believe that Riddle sought out Grindelwald to receive his wanted information. Once Riddle found Grindelwald and proved himself to him, Grindelwald would almost certainly have given Riddle all he wanted to know, and all that he needed to know to become the next Dark wizard. Grindelwald probably knew that his time was running short, thus he was hurrying to find a successor.

It could also be this reason why Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald - he did not want another powerful Dark wizard in Grindelwald's place. However, Dumbledore would have been too slow to defeat Grindelwald, for Grindelwald would have already taught Riddle all he knew.


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  #10  
Old March 24th, 2007, 3:52 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Brilliant! Could this be "Dumbledore's greatest regret?"


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Old March 24th, 2007, 3:55 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Absolutly!!How would it be if you spent so much time and effort to get rid of an evil festering pusball only to have an even bigger one pop up in its place!!


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Old March 24th, 2007, 3:57 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joannahex View Post
Well,Tom did travel so I suppose he could have met him in any of the "dark" places he went.I'm assuming he went to hang out in the places where wizards who knew more than what you were taught in school knew.Maybe foreign wizards.Didn't Durmstrang students learn some dark arts at there school?Maybe I'm wrong.I thought I read that somewhere.
Yes, I remember that too, that they teach Dark Arts at Durmstrang.

But I don't think that the problem is how Tom got to know of Grindelwald, but how it was possible for Tom to him to get near him. Grindelwald seemed to be one big evil wizard and probably also reigned for a few years. So people living at that time should have known him. But why would a wizard like Grindelwald teach a 17 year old boy, especially during a time he was busy with fighting himself. I believe that they either met somewhere accidently and Grindelwald recognised the evilness within Tom and saw a potencial follower in him, maybe someone who will continue his work, and decided to teach him or Tom tracked down Grindelwald and somehow convinced him to teach him how to create Horcruxes. The first thing could have happend before Slughorn's lesson.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dobbysocks View Post
Brilliant! Could this be "Dumbledore's greatest regret?"
Sorry, I don't understand this. Why Dumbledore's regret?


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Old March 24th, 2007, 4:04 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

It fits, but I don't know, I think it's possible. It fits in with the timeline thing, and I think it's quite possible. If that is what happened, then it would in fact be possible that it was DD's greatest regret and the "KILL ME" would be because he was too late to stop Grindlewald giving to Tom everything he'd need to conquer the Wizarding World and the Muggles.


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Old March 24th, 2007, 4:04 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TENSHI View Post
Sorry, I don't understand this. Why Dumbledore's regret?
That he wasn't fast enough to stop Grindelwald training up a younger more ambitious apprentice


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Last edited by dobbysocks; March 24th, 2007 at 4:09 am.
  #15  
Old March 24th, 2007, 4:08 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

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Originally Posted by dobbysocks View Post
That he was too slow to stop Grindy teaching everything he knew to a younger, more ambitious apprentice
Oh OK. I'm not sure about the "everything" though. For me it's enough if Grindelwald had time to teach him how to make Horcruxes. For all other things, Tom didn't need to have lessons with Grindelwald.


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Old March 24th, 2007, 4:13 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

hmmm i like this theory. i wonder, if this theory is indeed true that it, how long they would have spent together. did grindelwald just push him in the right direction and voldemort took over from their, or did grindelwald help him step by step

although, the last seems unlikely as voldemort likes operating alone

also, would voldemort want help, because he likes acting unaided?


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Old March 24th, 2007, 4:14 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Well, when I read the title of this thread I was thinking "no way! Grindlewald was way before Tom Riddle's time!"

But now that I think about it, how do we know that he wasn't killed more recently than I was thinking? Just because no one mentions him...

He was probably killed before Mr. and Mrs. Weasley were born, but not too long before. So I suppose it is very possible that Tom Riddle associated with him. Especially by your quote there...Yup, I believe you, Tom Riddle probably met Grindlewald.

Makes sense that Grindlewald was the first to make horcruxes, though I'm inclined to think that it is a dark, old-ish magic that originated earlier. So I'm not so sure about that part.

Tom Riddle getting mentored by Grindlewald? Possible, but again, I'm inclined to think no. But then again, there's no evidence against it, and I'm probably inclined to say no just because I have never even considered that possibility before I read this theory five minutes ago. I should keep an open mind. It is very possible, now that I think about it properly. yes...

Overall opinion: yes, definitely, I would not be surprised at all if you were right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gryfindors_heir View Post
hmmm i like this theory. i wonder, if this theory is indeed true that it, how long they would have spent together. did grindelwald just push him in the right direction and voldemort took over from their, or did grindelwald help him step by step

although, the last seems unlikely as voldemort likes operating alone

also, would voldemort want help, because he likes acting unaided?
He probably would get a little lesson or two, have a discussion, but not make it a regular thing. As you said, Voldie likes to operate alone, and relying on another wizard, even one much older and wiser than he, would probably just be too dependant in his book.

Oh, another thing: horcruxes.

When Tom Riddle asked Slughorn about horcruxes, it was obvious that he knew a little bit about them, but he did not know what exactly they were or how to create one. So if Grindlewald did tell Tom Riddle about horcruxes, it was before he asked Slughorn, so when he was about fifteen or sixteen (I'm thinking--that's when he would have started being even more independant and doing things on his own: I can't imagine anyone, even Tom Riddle, finding the Darkest wizard of the time and conversing with him before he was fifteen, because they wouldn't have given him too much independance at the orphanage. I doubt Grindlewald lived in the same town as Tom Riddle), and Grindlewald obviously didn't tell Tom Riddle too much about horcruxes--either because he didn't feel like discussing such things at length with someone so young (perhaps he never even metioned them to Tom, and Tom overheard Grindlewald mentioning them to another, older, more trusted wizard), or because they planned to meet again at a later date, or because their meeting was interrupted before Grindlewald was able to say anything besides the word "horcruxes" or something like that: maybe that was when Dumbledore killed Grindlewald.

Oh, yet another thing I just thought of. Anyone read "Beowulf"? Good literature. If you haven't read it, it's about this warrior guy named Beowulf that slays a monster called the Grendel, thereby saving a village (or something like that) from the Grendel. Notice: "Grendel" sounds a lot like "Grindlewald"--Grendel, put a "wald" on the end, change the vowel sound a little, and you have Grindlewald! A little while after Grendel is dead, his big bad mother comes and Beowulf has to fight her, too. Unfortunately, I don't remember whether he survives this battle or not....Hmm maybe some forshadowing? Probably not, I'm inclined to think.


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Last edited by LeiaShadow; March 24th, 2007 at 4:28 am.
  #18  
Old March 24th, 2007, 4:19 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessica View Post
I've always liked this theory myself. It makes nice chronological sense for Grindelwald to have mentored Tom over the summers when he was at Hogwarts and possibly for a year or so after he graduated.
Exactly - its all got to make sense chronologically before speculations should ensue, and its brilliant that this theory does. It doesn't hurt that Jo herself has mentioned, in the MuggleNet/LC interview if I remember correctly, that Grindelwald is definately going to be significant in Deathly Hallows.

It would definately not surprise me if Grindelwald knew anything about Horcruxes, either, considering we don't actually know anything about him, other than the date he was 'defeated'. I was a bit disappointed that this theory didn't come up in MuggleNet's book, because it seems highly plausible.


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Old March 24th, 2007, 4:19 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeiaShadow View Post
He probably would get a little lesson or two, have a discussion, but not make it a regular thing. As you said, Voldie likes to operate alone, and relying on another wizard, even one much older and wiser than he, would probably just be too dependant in his book.
Oh yeah, most definetly, i think he got the instructions from Grindelwald and was gone.


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Old March 24th, 2007, 4:28 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
As TENSHI said, Tom Riddle did not know how to create Horcruxes when he interrogated Slughorn:
HBP, Horcruxes, Pages 497 and 498, American, HB"A Horcrux is the word used for an object in which a person has concealed part of their soul."
"I don't quite understand how that works, though, sir," said Riddle.
His voice was carefully controlled, but Harry could sense his excitement.
.....
But Riddle's hunger was now apparent; his expression was greedy, he could no longer hide his longing.
"How do you split your soul?"
"Well," said Slughorn uncomforably, "you must understand that the soul is supposed to remain intact and whole. splitting it is an act of violation..."
"But how do you do it?"
...
"Encase? But how -?"

This shows that Riddle was still unsure about how Horcruxes worked, and how to create them. However, not receiving a 'good enough' answer, I would assume that he would venture to find someone who could tell him more about Horcruxes. Thus, I also believe that Riddle sought out Grindelwald to receive his wanted information. Once Riddle found Grindelwald and proved himself to him, Grindelwald would almost certainly have given Riddle all he wanted to know, and all that he needed to know to become the next Dark wizard. Grindelwald probably knew that his time was running short, thus he was hurrying to find a successor.

It could also be this reason why Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald - he did not want another powerful Dark wizard in Grindelwald's place. However, Dumbledore would have been too slow to defeat Grindelwald, for Grindelwald would have already taught Riddle all he knew.

If DD defeated Grindelwald and if Tom Riddle was in awe of his mentors abilities it could explain why he would be afraid of DD after that.


 
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