Questions about Horcruxes

[EXPELIAMUS]

I never understoood the "neither can live while the other survives" prophecy. If the venom kills Harry and the Horcrux, then okay only Voldemort's alive. Was there a specific date for when one has to die, or is it a general saying. Either way, I just don't get it.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by EXPELIAMUS

I never understoood the "neither can live while the other survives" prophecy. If the venom kills Harry and the Horcrux, then okay only Voldemort's alive. Was there a specific date for when one has to die, or is it a general saying. Either way, I just don't get it.

It really seems to me that the prophecy was as much self-fulfilling as anything else. From Harry's perspective, he would always be motivated to kill Voldemort because of what he'd done to Harry because of the prophecy. Voldemort couldn't stand Harry being alive because the prophecy told him that Harry represented a threat to his immortality. I don't think the word "live" is meant to be taken literally, once everything is understood. It seems to me to be more like when you say "I couldn't live with myself..."

[LeviathanMammal]

The Sorting Hat and the Marauder's Map were both magical devices storing memories of four friends. Possible connection?

[asdfasdf17]

Originally Posted by LeviathanMammal

The Sorting Hat and the Marauder's Map were both magical devices storing memories of four friends. Possible connection?

I think that's interesting but I don't think they would be Horcruxes because you'd have to murder in order for a Horcrux to be made. It may just be a coincidence that both devices store a memory of four friends. To me, those devices seem more connected towards wizard magical portraits which can talk and hold the person's personality. I don't think Rowling ever mentioned how magical portraits are made but apparently the one in the Headmaster's office appears after their death. Maybe some of the same process in making portraits is what made the Sorting hat and the Map. But it is interesting that whereas a portrait only seems to hold one person, the Hat and Map hold (the personalities of) four people. They must be harder to make, I think.

[MrSleepyHead]

Originally Posted by willfitz

As long as we're in agreement that the sentience of the diary's sentience and propensity to draw attention to itself was to do with the stored memory, and not the stored soul piece, perhaps the bigger link ought to be between the Sorting Hat and the diary, in particular, rather than Horcruxes in general.

I'm not quite in agreement with that statement, actually. Dumbledore says this about the diary: "A mere memory starting to act and think for itself? A mere memory, sapping the life out of the girl into whose hands it had fallen? No, something much more sinister had lived inside that book ... a fragment of soul, I was almost sure of it."

Here, Dumbledore was stumped by how a memory could have such sentience and power. The statement above indicates, to me, that Dumbledore couldn't explain the diary's "sentience and propensity to draw attention to itself" by a memory (i.e. "a mere memory starting to act and think for itself?"), which led him to the idea that it was a Horcrux. Thus, the soul piece would have been what really brought about those abilities. Of course, that's not to say that the memory did not have an effect, but that the soul piece was the more relevant. And I would say that the Sorting Hat follows that same trend: it certainly has started to act and think for itself, in ways, I think. It has the ability to comprehend contemporary occurrences, to draft unique poetry, etc. Perhaps it is more like the headmasters' portraits, but it seems to have a lot of the qualities that the diary had - both memory and Horcrux (and, according to Dumbledore, with the soul piece being the more sentient aspect. In which case, I would expand that similarity to Horcruxes in general rather than just the diary. Of course, perhaps it is that unique blend of memory and Horcrux, in which case we must ask why the Sorting Hat resembles both. Or perhaps the Hat is more akin to portraits after all.)

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

I'm not quite in agreement with that statement, actually. Dumbledore says this about the diary: "A mere memory starting to act and think for itself? A mere memory, sapping the life out of the girl into whose hands it had fallen? No, something much more sinister had lived inside that book ... a fragment of soul, I was almost sure of it."

Here, Dumbledore was stumped by how a memory could have such sentience and power.

I definitely misspoke in that earlier post. I don't believe that either the memory alone or the soul piece alone had the capability to act the way it did. It seems like the memory provided the machinery, but the soul piece provided the operator. The soul piece appears to have provided the sentience, definitely, and it is obvious from the locket that Horcrux are capable of thought.

[horcrux4]

Originally Posted by willfitz

I definitely misspoke in that earlier post. I don't believe that either the memory alone or the soul piece alone had the capability to act the way it did. It seems like the memory provided the machinery, but the soul piece provided the operator. The soul piece appears to have provided the sentience, definitely, and it is obvious from the locket that Horcrux are capable of thought.

Do you think then that when Riddle created the Diary with the memory of his 16 year old self in it, he already intended it to be a horcrux? In other words was the Diary/memory/horcrux created as one? And do you suppose that Riddle realised that the memory/soul would try to take a corporeal form? JKR said in an interview that if the Riddle of the Diary had managed to become solid (I can't remember the word she used) it would have increased Voldemort's power but I must admit I can't quite see how. I'd have thought having a walking talking horcrux wandering round would have increased the danger that it would have been destroyed.