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#941
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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#942
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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I'm not saying a person cannot interpret the duel different from Rowling, of course that it both allowable and very possible. But even if I pretend to have never heard Rowling's motivation for the duel it still strikes me as odd that Molly,the most porminent mother of the series, who has never partook actively in the war until the duel, just happens to have her duelling debut against a woman who is portrayed as anti-maternal, uninterested in family life and by Molly's standards most likely a "scarlet woman". Quote:
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#943
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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#944
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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I'm not sure I understand what exactly you are disagreeing about though. Are you saying that the duel isn't symbolic/doesn't have the meaning Rowling attached to it or that the meaning is present but not offensive? Both arguments are valid of course, I just want to know what I'm up against so to speak, for clarity's sake ![]() |
#945
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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#946
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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This, and the quote from Rowling, are the reasons why I believe that the duel holds the mother vs non mother or good woman vs bad woman symbolism. One thing that can be said in the defence of that is that Voldemort himself is also thwarted by a mother's love, the first time he is vanquished, the second time when Narcissa lies to him and the third when Harry is granted a protection against him. So the fact that motherhood is used as a "weapon" even against a man can somewhat salvage the "feminism" of that duel. It's not enough for me but it's a thought... Like other posters have said a few pages back I was also bothered by the lack of female contribution to the final battle. Besides Minerva (and Molly) no other woman or girl accomplishes anything. Hermione helps Harry a great deal in the search for the Horcruxes so she's somewhat excused but other female characters don't really help out if I remember correctly. What is done is mostly done by men unfortunately. I also feel sorry for Ginny for having to be rescued by her mother since I saw her as yearning to prove that she is grown up and a powerful witch capable of taking care of herself. I wonder why JKR kept her in what I see as a rather helpless role with somebody always having to come to her rescue. Does that mean that Ginny was wrong for not staying put in the RoR? |
#947
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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![]() People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff... ....I miss David Tennant.... Last edited by HedwigOwl; April 10th, 2012 at 5:57 am. Reason: typo/revision for clarity |
#948
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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![]() Keeping something like this in mind, I see the Molly/Bellatrix battle not so much a comparison of a bad woman v. a good woman or a mother v. a non-mother but JKR protecting her young characters so we can't later condemn them for willfullying killing another human being (even though I think Neville had more of a "right" to kill Bellatrix than Molly did seeing as it was Bellatrix that who tortured his parents into madness), no matter how evil that person was or justifiable that killing would have been. Perhaps JKR is a victim of that condition known as loving your characters too much; she didn't want Neville to be seen killing or torturing even someone like Bellatrix because he was too young, too innocent, too precious to sully in that way. ![]()
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#949
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
And also, there's the believability factor: It's a lot more likely that an adult wizard around the same age as Bellatrix could kill her rather than a teenager boy.
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#950
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
I don't think it's unbelievable that a 17/18 year old could duel someone like Bellatrix, nor do I think it's unbelievable that a teenager could kill her.
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#951
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
I'd have found it a tad unbelievable if Neville HAD managed to kill her, myself...
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#952
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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![]() Second, while it's possible that she did fight anyone else (though not probable for the reason I posted) the fact still remains that her duel with Bella is the only one we are shown which implies that it was more significant than others. Quote:
And no, of course that for the fighters it isn't necessary to have a history with someone in order to fight them. But since this isn't a real battle that logic doesn't apply. Poetic justice is something that often happens in literature and while it doesn't have to happen every time, I am still inclined to believe that JKR avoided it for the reason that she wanted to pitt Bellatrix and Molly against each other and underline the motherhood theme of the series. Quote:
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I'm not saying that she is weak or that she should have done better against Bellatrix. I'm saying that it must have felt like a disappointed to her to have her mother barge in, calling people names and taking over the fight as though it was her own. Not to mention the fact that Ginny must have also worried for her mother's safety. I sure wouldn't want my mom to be fighting a psycho and I would feel really guilty if I had somehow managed to get myself in trouble and left her with no alternative other than to do so. I thought it was brave of Ginny to disobey Harry and her mother and leave the RoR. The fact that she then needs rescuing undermines that positive message, IMO, and makes the reader wonder whether or not she should have stayed put. Again not saying that she was weak, just saying that she was ultimately not allowed to make a difference in the war, which I think she would have wanted to do. |
#953
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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![]() And to be clear, I'm not saying that Neville would have to cast Avada Kedavra in order to kill; Molly didn't cast AK but the curse she did cast ended up killing Bellatrix; whether that was the intended result or whether the curse happened to hit Bellatrix in such a way or in just the right place that it resulted in her death we'll never know. Quote:
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#954
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
I'm going to concur with Melazka that the subject matter hardly makes it feminist fare, unless by "Feminism" you mean, women are included in the story line.
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#955
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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Even so, the threat to Ginny was happening right in front of Molly, so I'd expect her to intervene no matter which of her children it may have been; and of course it's a better storyline for it to be Ginny, not only because of Molly, but Harry as well.
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#956
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
Guys, I'm not going to close down the Molly/Bellatrix duel topic, but please can you make sure that you make it clear in all your posts how what you've written relates back to the topic of Feminism (or lack thereof) in HP?
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#957
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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__________________
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#958
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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I'm not sure how it would be good from a feminist viewpoint if there were loads of women who queue'd up to be DEs. But I think the reason we see Bella putting Ginny in danger is that there weren't that many DEs standing at that point, and if you had to pick 2 that would be still left untouched at that point, and easily dueling more than one person, it would be Voldemort and Bella. I know that JKR has talked about her thoughts at having Molly finish off Bella, but I also think that Bella was chosen to be one of the last fighting because it seemed a logical conclusion. So partly a symbolic intention on JKR's part, but to me I think Molly's motivation was the will/intent to protect her child, which I don't even put in a feminist/non-feminist category.
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#959
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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I get that Molly is supposed to be the mother of all mothers but I would have liked to see her fighting for something other than her children yet again since all she ever does is for them. It would have developed her character which, despite what others have said I don't think the duel does. yes we saw another part of her in terms of her ability to use violence but it was still something she did as a mother. It seems all Rowling's female characters are consumed by motherhood while the men still have hobbies, jobs and interests. |
#960
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Re: Feminism in Deathly Hallows - or the lack thereof v.3
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So, while I do think the series fails to give as much prominence to female characters as male and it often fails to present mothers as people with interests in their own right, I think in the latter part of it, there's a suggestion that being "consumed" by parenthood is important for both mothers AND fathers and that fathers could take a leaf out of Molly's book. |
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