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Assuming R.A.B is Regulus A. Black v2



 
 
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  #221  
Old March 16th, 2006, 3:06 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Thanks. I have no doubt that she really talked about RAB.


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  #222  
Old March 16th, 2006, 6:24 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingwidgit
This isn't true. According to JK, Regulus was just like Draco.

Draco wasn't a loyal Death Eater, he's a terrified kid......the terror for himself and his parents didn't enable him to kill Dumbledore, like a loyal and faithful Death Eater, like Bella---Lucius---Rookwood---Mulciber...etc. Draco had emersed himself in the Dark Arts, and is quite capable of evil...yet he wasn't whole-heartedly loyal to the Dark Lord.

JK herself compares the two, Regulus and Draco---there's not much disparity in their ages...Draco, age 16, Death Eater. Regulus, age 18-19, dead former Death Eater.
Loyalty through fear is still loyalty, but I'll grant you that he may have been obedient through fear. Still, how does this lead Regulus to defy Voldemort? Draco may not have been completely loyal, but he wasn't looking for a way to destroy Voldemort. He did his best to fulfill his task. Every indication from JKR points to Regulus as nothing but a scared kid who got in over his head. Yet he somehow mustered the courage to defy the greatest dark wizard of all time? It just doesn't add up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm
No one just changes their mind overnight. He would have been feeling some disquiet for a period of time before whatever he was asked put him over the top. But just for argument's sake, he could have been completely loyal, but still have learned about the horcrux and the cave.
But that's not what canon suggests. Slughorn is the overwhelming candidate to have given Regulus the information he needed to find the cave. It's not a matter of discovering that Voldemort had created a Horcrux. I'm convinced that the Dark Lord himself told his Death Eaters that he created a single Horcrux. The location of the cave is the huge obstacle Regulus needed to overcome, followed closely by Voldemort's defenses in the cave. Accidently stumbling upon the information is a slim possibility, but there is absolutely no clear canon to suggest that's what happened. Undoubtedly, JKR has left us clues, and Slughorn is a virtual 'smoking gun.'

So I'm operating from the assumption, supported by canon, that Slughorn helped Regulus. It's exactly the same type of assumption used to support Kreacher helping Regulus in the cave. He had the ability, and the clear association with Regulus to help him. That makes him prime suspect #1 in my book. I have yet to see any canon to support Regulus somehow stumbling upon the information (the suggestion that R.A.B. used the word 'discovered' to indicate he stumbled upon the information is a paper thin argument at best).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm
And how do you know whether Slughorn was getting drunk with his students or not? Or maybe he was getting drunk with his alumni? BTW, I'm not required to convince you about anything.
I didn't say you were required to convince me. I asked you very nicely to please convince me.

As for Slughorn getting drunk with his students, that's not the point I was trying to make. The point is that Regulus at some point had to have intent. You, and others, have suggested that Regulus somehow gathered all this information while he was serving as a Death Eater, unintentionally, through means that aren't supported by canon. All while ignoring the more obvious answer, that the information was provided by someone who had it, and was clearly associated with Regulus (Slughorn). This is the great flaw, amongst many, with the theory that Regulus retrieved the locket in the few days between fleeing from the Death Eaters, and his apparent death.

Regulus had to have method and intent. As of right now, Slughorn is the most obvious method. That would mean that Regulus had to actively seek to gain the information from Slughorn. Regulus could not have intentionally gathered the information while still serving as a Death Eater, because that would contradict JKR's character assessment given in interviews. Regulus was an overwhelmed kid, not a devious double agent like Snape.

So, let's sum up:
  1. Regulus overheard information about the cave -- contradicts canon.
  2. Regulus unintentionally stumbled upon information about the cave -- no supporting canon, ignores existing canon.
  3. Regulus intentionally investigated Voldemort while still a Death Eater -- contradicts canon.
  4. Regulus discovered the cave and stole the locket in the few days between fleeing from the Death Eaters and his death -- defies logic, not enough time.
Don't get me wrong, I'm trying to give these theories a chance, but they just don't seem feasible.


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  #223  
Old March 16th, 2006, 6:46 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by snapefy
That would mean that Regulus had to actively seek to gain the information from Slughorn.
Can you provide the canon that shows Slughorn knowing the location of the cave? Canon to show he knows just which orphanage Tommy grew up in? Canon to show he knew Tommy tortured Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop? I admit, there isn't any canon showing Regulus learning any of that, from anyone (it would defeat the mystery of RAB if we had been told! ), but he at least had to learn of the cave's location from someone. Doesn't seem like Slughorn would have known that.

It may be complex enough that both Slughorn and another source (or two) provided Regulus with the knowledge that he would have needed to steal the locket. He may have had to put the puzzle pieces together to have that, "Aha!" moment.

If Regulus were given a task like Draco was (kill someone powerful/important or a family member), wouldn't he have been given some time to accomplish that--like Draco was? Suppose he had as much time as Draco did (pretty much a school year, say 9 months from starting school to the tower incident). Plenty of time to put the wheels of finding Voldemort's horcrux in motion. After taking the locket from the cave, his "allowance" of time to get the assigned task done (the killing, maybe) was up--and the DEs were told to kill him on sight for his failure to accomplish the orders given.


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  #224  
Old March 16th, 2006, 7:12 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by snapefy
So, let's sum up:
Regulus overheard information about the cave -- contradicts canon.
Regulus unintentionally stumbled upon information about the cave -- no supporting canon, ignores existing canon.
Regulus intentionally investigated Voldemort while still a Death Eater -- contradicts canon.
Regulus discovered the cave and stole the locket in the few days between fleeing from the Death Eaters and his death -- defies logic, not enough time.
Don't get me wrong, I'm trying to give these theories a chance, but they just don't seem feasible.
I'm a little confused by the way you're categorizing this information. I don't understand how it all contradicts canon unless there has been irrefutable proof either in the books or directly from JKR that Regulus could not have done any of these things. Granted it's entirely possible that from the way canon is interpreted that your summation could be correct, but we're all speculating until book 7 aren't we?

I know you've explained this before (partly because I've already asked ) but your canon for Regulus and his few days is speculation from characters other than Dumbledore and Hermione isn't it? I don't belive that these other characters are lying but since we know who JKR uses to pass on the most reliable information it's entirely possible that any other speculation on Regulus is inaccurate isn't it?


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  #225  
Old March 16th, 2006, 7:49 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicole
Can you provide the canon that shows Slughorn knowing the location of the cave? Canon to show he knows just which orphanage Tommy grew up in? Canon to show he knew Tommy tortured Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop? I admit, there isn't any canon showing Regulus learning any of that, from anyone (it would defeat the mystery of RAB if we had been told! ), but he at least had to learn of the cave's location from someone. Doesn't seem like Slughorn would have known that.
He probably didn't. But the important thing is that Slughorn was one of the very few wizards who knew that Voldemort was once Tom Riddle. It also seems apparent that the Hogwarts staff knew Tom Riddle was an orphan:
HBP17"As an unusually talented and very good-looking orphan, he naturally drew attention and sympathy from the staff almost from the moment of his arrival."
I can't imagine the Hogwarts Staff wouldn't have access to student records, so Slughorn probably knew which orphanage Riddle spent his summers at since he was keeping an eye on Tom. If Slughorn shared this information with Regulus, that could lead him to the orphanage, which could lead to Amy Benson or Dennis Bishop, and eventually the cave.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicole
It may be complex enough that both Slughorn and another source (or two) provided Regulus with the knowledge that he would have needed to steal the locket. He may have had to put the puzzle pieces together to have that, "Aha!" moment.
I'm not saying Regulus wasn't a smart wizard, it's simply a matter of having enough time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicole
If Regulus were given a task like Draco was (kill someone powerful/important or a family member), wouldn't he have been given some time to accomplish that--like Draco was? Suppose he had as much time as Draco did (pretty much a school year, say 9 months from starting school to the tower incident). Plenty of time to put the wheels of finding Voldemort's horcrux in motion. After taking the locket from the cave, his "allowance" of time to get the assigned task done (the killing, maybe) was up--and the DEs were told to kill him on sight for his failure to accomplish the orders given.
Again, there simply isn't any canon to support this. I'd find it hard to believe that JKR didn't give us any clues as to what happened to Regulus.


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  #226  
Old March 16th, 2006, 8:32 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by snapefy
I'd find it hard to believe that JKR didn't give us any clues as to what happened to Regulus.
I'm suggesting that Regulus had as much time to complete an assigned task as Draco had. The amount of time given to Draco is at least 9 months (more if one counts the time between being given the assignment and the school year beginning). Draco is the canon example of what may have happened to Regulus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snapefy
If Slughorn shared this information with Regulus
Voldemort and his followers had been terrorizing the wizarding world since before Regulus even began attending Hogwarts. Why would Slughorn want to talk about him? (Just curious!)


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  #227  
Old March 16th, 2006, 8:36 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by snapefy
Hi Weasleytwin! First, I'd like to say that I enjoy your deductions, and I like your Secret Riddle Theory so much that I've included it in my own theory. However, I have to disagree with you that Bella slipped the information to Regulus. Simply put, there is far more canon to support Slughorn giving Regulus the information about the cave.
  1. Slughorn was one of the few wizards who knew that Voldemort was once Tom Riddle.
  2. Slughorn was one of the few (only?) wizards that knew Tom Riddle was interested in Horcruxes.
  3. Slughorn knew that Tom Riddle spent his summers at an orphanage.
  4. Slughorn mentioned that Regulus was one of his students, so he must have had some kind of relationship with Regulus.
So far, the evidence for who helped Regulus discover Voldemort's Horcrux(es) overwhelmingly points to Slughorn. To me, the question becomes, "how did Slughorn help Regulus?"

Based on available evidence, Regulus probably turned to Slughorn for help when he ran from the Death Eaters. Based on popular belief, I can see two possibilities:
  1. Regulus wanted revenge on Voldemort because he ordered Regulus's death. Regulus somehow knew that Slughorn had information about Voldemort, and somehow coerced him into revealing it to Regulus. Regulus went to the orphanage and hunted down Amy Benson or Dennis Bishop and found out about the cave. Regulus went to the cave and used the house elf Kreacher to extract the locket from the cave, refilling the basin along the way. Regulus then submits to his own death (or is simply caught by the Death Eaters after accomplishing everything listed above). All this happened in the few days between Regulus fleeing from the Death Eaters, and his death.
  2. Regulus fled from the Death Eaters and turned to Slughorn for help. Slughorn helped Regulus fake his own death, and arranged for him to switch identities with Stubby Boardman. Regulus lived incognito as Stubby until Voldemort apparently died in 1981. Regulus tried to come out of hiding but was intercepted by Slughorn who told him that he couldn't come out of hiding because Voldemort created Horcruxes. That motivated Regulus to start investigating Voldemort's past, and search for his Horcruxes. Regulus was able to find the cave through Amy Benson or Dennis Bishop based on Slughorn's information about the orphanage. Since Regulus had plenty of time, he was able to penetrate Voldemort's defenses in the cave, figure out how to get the locket, and come back later with replacement potion to fill the basin. Regulus died a few years later, perhaps cursed while trying to retrieve another Horcrux.
I could buy the first theory, if someone could somehow convince me that Regulus was able to do everything in just a few days, and come up with a better motive (please, I'm beggin you!). But for now, my money's on the second theory.
Hi snapefy, and thank you for the compliment! I'm glad that some people think my Secret Riddle theory is possible, though I know others will disagree because I assume that Reggy knew about the horcruxes in advance.

As for the question of Slughorn or Bella as the informant, either is entirely possible! For the record, right now I am leaning towards a combination of the two. I think Reggy probably found out from Bella that there was a horcrux. (Remember that he only thought there was one when he wrote the note, and if Slughorn did advise him, Sluggy probably would have told him that Voldemort was considering making multiple horcruxes. Also, Sluggy was very reluctant to give the horcrux memory to Dumbledore-there very well could have been some circumstance that convinced him to give it to Reggy, but as far as we've seen, Sluggy has been very reluctant to talk about the horcrux memory. However, if Reggy went to Slughorn with prior knowledge that Voldemort had made a horcrux and Reggy wanted to destroy it, I'm sure Sluggy would have helped. And then he could easily convince himself that he had done his part in undoing the damage that he did years earlier.) Anyway, I think Reggy found out from Bella that Voldemort had made a horcrux. While Reggy was in the process of figuring out where it might be hidden, he consulted Slughorn, who could have told him that Voldemort had grown up at an orphanage. Reggy could have gone to the orphanage, where he could have heard the story about TR and the kids (it was 35 years later, but it is possible that someone there might remember the story, since TR was so notorious). After hearing the story, all Reggy had to do was find Amy Benson or Dennis Bishop, who could take him to the cave.

ComicBookWorm beat me to it, but I was going to suggest a third option to add to your list. It is also possible that Reggy found out about the horcrux and was conducting his search while still pretending to be a loyal Death Eater. This would give him plenty of time-and all he would need to do it is skill at Occlumency. I know we don't have canon evidence of Reggy knowing these skills, but Bella, his cousin, knows, as does Snape, who would have only been a couple years older than Reggy at Hogwarts-so it is possible that he could have learned from either or them, or that he learned from the same source that they did. Granted, one must be very skilled at Occlumency to fool someone like Voldemort, but we've already seen someone be skilled enough to fool either Dumbledore or Voldemort, so it is possible.

You also said that we don't have canon evidence that Reggy wasn't a loyal Death Eater before he hunted down the horcrux. I'm not sure that we have any canon evidence of him being a loyal Death Eater. Most of our information about Reggy comes from Sirius, who was biased about him in the first place, and was not a Death Eater himself, so how would he know? We hear Dumbledore and Lupin both talk about Reggy in HBP, (I think it was HBP, maybe the end of OotP) but all either one tells us it that Reggy died shortly after quitting the DE's. So all that we really know from canon (unless I'm forgetting something, which is certainly possible!) is that Reggy was a Death Eater and that he fled Voldemort and was killed. And Slughorn tells us that Reggy was a student of his. I'm inclined to dismiss most of what Sirius said, since he is such a biased witness (also, Reggy was a couple years younger and Sirius ran away from home at 16 and didn't really talk to his family after that-so he wouldn't have been around when Reggy became a Death Eater, so he wouldn't have known about that part of Reggy's life from his own experience). I love Sirius, but I don't think he's very credible on this issue. So I don't think we have evidence that Reggy was loyal or non-loyal as a Death Eater.

I think it is possible that Reggy spoke with Slughorn several months before retreiving the locket. That would give him plenty of time to find the cave before he was killed. I think it's unlikely that he suddenly panicked at what he was being asked to do-he must have had SOME idea of what was coming! We know that Reggy was not stupid-Slughorn speaks highly of him and he was clearly smart enough to discover the cave and penetrate its defenses-so I'm sure he was able to anticipate the fact that Voldemort would ask him to do something he didn't want to do. If Reggy starting looking for the horcrux at this time, that would give him more time before he officially fled.

I hope JKR tells us how he did it! I'd be really upset if Harry just went to 12 GM Place, looked at the tapestry, said "Ahhh...Regulus Black is RAB," goes and gets the locket and destroys it without an explanation of how Reggy did it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by snapefy
He probably didn't. But the important thing is that Slughorn was one of the very few wizards who knew that Voldemort was once Tom Riddle. It also seems apparent that the Hogwarts staff knew Tom Riddle was an orphan:
HBP17"As an unusually talented and very good-looking orphan, he naturally drew attention and sympathy from the staff almost from the moment of his arrival."
I can't imagine the Hogwarts Staff wouldn't have access to student records, so Slughorn probably knew which orphanage Riddle spent his summers at since he was keeping an eye on Tom. If Slughorn shared this information with Regulus, that could lead him to the orphanage, which could lead to Amy Benson or Dennis Bishop, and eventually the cave.
Very good explanation!


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Last edited by Weasleytwin; March 16th, 2006 at 8:45 pm.
  #228  
Old March 16th, 2006, 8:51 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasleytwin
We hear Dumbledore and Lupin both talk about Reggy in HBP
I don't remember Dumbledore ever mentioning Regulus. Did you mean Slughorn?


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  #229  
Old March 16th, 2006, 9:48 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingwidgit
The problem with this though, is that Bella, Rodolphus, Rabastan, and Barty Jr. didn't attack the Longbottoms on their own...they were ordered to do so. JK has told us in the books---through Bella---that they thought they were trying to find Voldemort's location. JK has also told us on her site that this is not the case.
jkrowling.com, RumoursThe Lestranges were sent after Neville to kill him

No, they werenít, they were very definitely sent after Nevilleís parents. I canít say too much about this because it touches too closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it, but the Lestranges were not in on the secret.
They were ordered, by someone, to attack the Longbottoms. Whoever that person was, they---and not the Lestranges/Crouch Jr.---had knowledge of the prophecy. As I've said before, we have three candidates who knew of the prophecy: Albus, Snape, Aberforth....yet this isn't quite true. I've just realized a glaring possibility. The keeper of the Hall of Prophecy knew the prophecy, he/she had to record it, and officially attached Harry's name to the prophecy after the attack at Godric's Hollow.

Whoever the Keeper is, they're an Unspeakable...so who all were Unspeakables?

Broderick Bode, Croaker, Augustus Rookwood...anyone else?
This is a good idea, and Rookwood would be a great choice since he is a Death Eater, but if he knew the prophecy and sent Bella and Co. to attack the Longbottoms, he could have told Voldemort the prophecy in OotP.

I think we can rule out Bode, too, since he was put under the Imperius Curse in OotP to steal the prophecy. If he was a DE, they wouldn't have needed to put him under the Imperius Curse. And again, if he knew the prophecy in the first place, they could have just ordered him to tell them rather than ordering him to steal the prophecy. What do we know about Croaker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicole
I don't remember Dumbledore ever mentioning Regulus. Did you mean Slughorn?
I could swear that Dumbledore says something about Regulus quitting the Death Eaters-either in HBP or at the end of OotP. Does anyone else remember this, or have I finally cracked? I'll see if I can find the quote...if it exists!


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  #230  
Old March 16th, 2006, 10:26 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicole
The movie discussions may be found in Muggle Studies...and book canon will take precedence over movie scenes in other areas. Karkaroff makes no move toward the Goblet nor the Triwizard Cup in Book 4.
Thanks Ill go discuss that over there.
*goes off looking for thread*


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  #231  
Old March 17th, 2006, 3:45 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Last evening I had typed up this huge post and as I am slow at typing it took a long time. Then when I tried to post I found I couldn't as the servers must have gone down!!
Anyway will try to remember all the points.
snapefy, I also feel that it could be Bella or Slughorn. Personally, like Weasleytwin, I am veering towards a combination. Explanation follows. However...., I am still not sold on your Regulus is alive and posing as Stubby Boardman theory. Of course, Book 7 could prove you right!

ComicBookWorm and kingwidgit, RAB must have been atleast 15 maybe 16 when he joined so he must have had atleast 2 to 3 years as a DE assuming he died just before his 19th birthday. Also I am of the theory that Rookwood might have sent the Lestranges to the Longbottoms. In GOF, Crouch Sr in the pensieve scene says that he works in the DOM. He is also the person in OOTP who informed Voldemort that Avery had misled them because only the people directly involved with the prophecy could touch it. This is pure speculation but when a prophecy is made, it probably gets magically in the sphere and the person who hears it tells the keeper who it is about. So the keeper might know who it is about and guess at the gist of it but will not know the details. So if Rookwood worked at the DOM was not outed as a DE until after the downfall of Voldemort, he might have looked at the sphere without touching it and sent the Lestranges to find out why the curse bounced back.
Nicole, your idea about Regulus having 9 months to complete a task like Draco makes sense. What if Voldemort took in young DEs and assigned them a repugnant task. If they succeeded then they were given more important tasks as they had proven themselves loyal, besides they would land up in Azkaban anyway if they ratted as they had probably done something heinous! So if Regulus when he was 16 was given a task of say killing Sirius, he might have been over his head and distaught like Malfoy but might have been smarter at getting some revenge before defecting.

So as Weasleytwin says that if Slughorn had told Regulus about the horcrux then he would have known there might be multiple ones.
So this is my theory, after reading please feel free to poke holes.
What if as I posted above Regulus has 9 months for a terrible task and in this time he finds out about the orphanage from Slughorn. During Christmas while hanging tinsel behind a door he hears cousin Bella boasting to her husband or another DE that she had say for eg helped put inferi in this remote cave. He then goes to the orphanage finds out about the 2 kids and the cave and puts 2 and 2 together. So when school is over, he bolts with Kreacher and replaces the locket. Lupin mentions in HBP during Harry's 16th birthday celebration that Reg lasted a few days compared to Karkaroff. So after replacing the locket he goes to 12 GP where he hides the locket and is caught by DEs and killed. All within a few days of bolting. Now there is one problem, a big one. How did he find out it was a locket horcrux? Most of us are of the theory that Voldemort would not confide in DEs about the location and what objects he would use. I would like to hear suggestions on that too.


  #232  
Old March 17th, 2006, 3:52 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by snapefy
Based on available evidence, Regulus probably turned to Slughorn for help when he ran from the Death Eaters. Based on popular belief, I can see two possibilities:
  1. Regulus wanted revenge on Voldemort because he ordered Regulus's death. Regulus somehow knew that Slughorn had information about Voldemort, and somehow coerced him into revealing it to Regulus. Regulus went to the orphanage and hunted down Amy Benson or Dennis Bishop and found out about the cave. Regulus went to the cave and used the house elf Kreacher to extract the locket from the cave, refilling the basin along the way. Regulus then submits to his own death (or is simply caught by the Death Eaters after accomplishing everything listed above). All this happened in the few days between Regulus fleeing from the Death Eaters, and his death.
  2. Regulus fled from the Death Eaters and turned to Slughorn for help. Slughorn helped Regulus fake his own death, and arranged for him to switch identities with Stubby Boardman. Regulus lived incognito as Stubby until Voldemort apparently died in 1981. Regulus tried to come out of hiding but was intercepted by Slughorn who told him that he couldn't come out of hiding because Voldemort created Horcruxes. That motivated Regulus to start investigating Voldemort's past, and search for his Horcruxes. Regulus was able to find the cave through Amy Benson or Dennis Bishop based on Slughorn's information about the orphanage. Since Regulus had plenty of time, he was able to penetrate Voldemort's defenses in the cave, figure out how to get the locket, and come back later with replacement potion to fill the basin. Regulus died a few years later, perhaps cursed while trying to retrieve another Horcrux.
I could buy the first theory, if someone could somehow convince me that Regulus was able to do everything in just a few days, and come up with a better motive (please, I'm beggin you!). But for now, my money's on the second theory.
First of all, I don't think Slughorn helped Regulus. If Slughorn had helped Regulus, wouldn't he know that Regulus found a Horcrux? And wouldn't it mean that he was firmly on the good side? So wouldn't he help Dumbledore by giving him the whole memory? And why would Regulus's note imply that he thought there was only one Horcrux, when Slughorn would have been the only person to guess that Voldemort had multiple Horcruxes?

I think I disagree with your first scenario for the same reasons you do. Your second one I don't buy because Regulus didn't go to the Gaunt house first. If he was researching Voldemort's past, he would have gone there first and found the ring, just like Dumbledore did. He also wouldn't have bothered to leave his note in a fake locket that doesn't even look like the real locket Horcrux.

Have you read my editorial, Regulus and the Cave...? I think the people on this thread would be most interested in it.


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  #233  
Old March 17th, 2006, 4:17 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desal
How did he find out it was a locket horcrux? Most of us are of the theory that Voldemort would not confide in DEs about the location and what objects he would use. I would like to hear suggestions on that too.
Well, I've said this before, but... He's a wizard. He could conjure items and he could transfigure items and he could have gotten the locket from his girlfriend the previous Christmas (parallel found in Ron) and had it in a robe pocket or actually have been wearing it. If the latter, it wouldn't be so valuable that Regulus, who thought he was going to be killed shortly, wouldn't be willing to give it up in exchange for the Horcrux locket. [There were objections to conjuring and transfiguring because Reg didn't seem to have made a very good "match" to the Horcrux locket.]

Doesn't explain the note perfectly, but I don't think we can say Reg didn't write it in advance, merely expecting to leave it on location in some manner. Discovering that the Horcrux was a locket probably seemed providential!


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  #234  
Old March 17th, 2006, 4:38 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by snapefy
Loyalty through fear is still loyalty, but I'll grant you that he may have been obedient through fear. Still, how does this lead Regulus to defy Voldemort? Draco may not have been completely loyal, but he wasn't looking for a way to destroy Voldemort. He did his best to fulfill his task.
Fear is not loyalty, not to Voldemort anyway.
GoF"Your devotion is nothing more than cowardice. You would not be here is you had anywhere else to go."
-----
"All that is needed is a little courage from you, Wormtail---courage you will find, unless you wish to feel the full extent of Lord Voldemort's wrath---"
-----
"You returned to me, not out of loyalty, but out of fear of your old friends."
-----
"Here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return...he will pay."
Quote:
Every indication from JKR points to Regulus as nothing but a scared kid who got in over his head. Yet he somehow mustered the courage to defy the greatest dark wizard of all time? It just doesn't add up.
We have one statement, from Sirius Black---a statement that was partially repeated by JKR: That doesn't necessarily show that Voldemort killed him, personally, but Sirius himself suspected that Regulus got in a little too deep. Like Draco. He was attracted to it, but the reality of what it meant was way too much to handle.

All the Death Eaters are fearful of Voldemort, even Bella.
OoP"Stand up, Rookwood," whispered Harry.
The kneeling man almost fell over in his haste to obey. His face was pockmarked; the scars were thrown into relief by the candlelight. He remained a little stooped when standing, as though halfway through a bow, and he darted terrified looks up at Harry's face.
"You have done well to tell me this, said Harry. "Very well...I have wasted months on fruitless schemes, it seems...but no matter...we begin again, from now. You have Lord Voldemort's gratitude, Rookwood..."
"My Lord...yes, My Lord," gasped Rookwood, his voice hoarse with relief.
-----
"No!" she screamed. "It isn't true, you're lying! MASTER, I TRIED, I TRIED - DO NOT PUNISH ME - "
HBP"The Dark Lord is....I believe...mistaken," Bella panted, and her eyes gleamed momentarily under her hood as she looked around to check that they were indeed alone.
Fear, bullying, blackmail---this is how Voldemort operates, how he gets followers, how he employs spies. Even his "most loyal" are afraid of him.

This doesn't mean that the fearful Death Eaters can't---or won't---turn on him. In fact we have very strong evidence, canon-wise, that all the Death Eaters have done so at some point...None of his Death Eaters looked for him after his downfall {GoF, HBP}. In GoF, Voldemort himself speaks of it...and then mentions two specific Death Eaters. One to cowardly to return, he will pay. One who has left him forever, he will be killed---evidence of another Death Eater who also backed out of the deal---the Death Eater is assumed to be the very cowardly Karkaroff.

There must have been a catalyst for Regulus to rebel and act upon the knowledge he'd attained. Since he could have attained his knowledge of the cave at any point---not specifically the few days he'd spent on the run---there is no contradictory canon, as you claim. Regulus made a choice. Which is the intent of the series---Choices.


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  #235  
Old March 17th, 2006, 4:41 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicole
I don't remember Dumbledore ever mentioning Regulus. Did you mean Slughorn?
Well, I looked for the quote that I thought I remembered, and it doesn't seem to exist. I found out that Dumbledore does mention Regulus, but doesn't give as much information as I thought he did. I probably got the quote mixed up with Lupin's.

While I was looking for this phantom-quote, I put together a list of places where Regulus is mentioned, just for reference. Here are the Regulus-related quotes:

OotP, ch. 6, Sirius'Leave?' Sirius smiled bitterly and ran his fingers through his long, unkempt hair. 'Because I hated the whole lot of them: my parents, with their pure-blood mania, convinced that to be a Black made you practically royal...my idiot brother, soft enough to believe them...that's him.'
Sirius jabbed his finger at the very bottom of the tree, at the name 'Regulus Black.' A date of death (some fifteen years previously) followed the date of birth.
'He was younger than me,' said Sirius, 'and a much better son, as I was constantly reminded.'
'But he died,' said Harry.
'Yeah,' said Sirius. 'Stupid idiot...he joined the Death Eaters.'
'You're kidding!'
'Come on, Harry, haven't you seen enough of this house to tell what kind of wizards my family were?' said Sirius testily.
'Were-were your parents Death Eaters as well?'
'No, no, but believe me, they thought Voldemort had the right idea, they were all for the purification of the wizarding race, getting rid of Muggle-borns and having pure-bloods in charge. They weren't alone, either, there were quite a few people, before Voldemort had shown his true colors, who thought he had the right idea about things...they got cold feet when they saw what he was prepared to do to get power, though. But I bet my parents thought Regulus was a right little hero for joining up at first.'
'Was he killed by an Auror?' Harry asked tentatively.
'Oh, no,' said Sirius. 'No, he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort's orders, more likely; I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person. From what I found out after he died, he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out. Well, you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service or death.'

Sirius gives us most of our information on Regulus. If we were to take these comments at face value, Sirius tells us that he had a younger brother who agreed with his parents opinions about pure-bloods being superior. Regulus then joined the Death Eaters, probably to his parents satisfaction at first. He was never very important, but panicked at what he was being asked to do, fled, and was killed by other Death Eaters.

As I, and others have said before, however, we can't just take Sirius' story at face value. For one, he was clearly quite prejudiced against his brother from the beginning. Throughout the story, he uses phrases like 'my idiot brother,' 'soft enough to believe them, and 'stupid idiot.' He also speaks 'testily,' indicating that he was agitated while telling the story. Sirius also admits that his parents favored Regulus: 'and a much better son, as I was constantly reminded.' Even though Sirius professes to hate his parents, he must have felt some resentment at this outright favoritism. The combination of all of these facts leads me to believe that Sirius was prejudiced against his family, including Reggy, and agitated to have to speak of them. I do not think he intentionally meant to mislead Harry, but we have to question his reliability as a witness, due to these biases. Unfortunately, most of our information about Regulus comes from this biased witness.

I have pointed out elsewhere that Sirius had left home before Reggy joined the Death Eaters. Reggy was younger than Sirius and Sirius ran away at 16. So Sirius was not around to talk to Reggy or hear what his parents had to say about Reggy being a Death Eater. Also, I really doubt that the Blacks were still under any illustions about Voldemort's intentions by the time Reggy was old enough to join the Death Eaters. Voldemort had been in power for 11 years when he attacked the Potters-though there is some speculation on Reggy's age and the age when he joined the Death Eaters, I think we can safely say that Voldemort had been in power for 8-10 years by the time Reggy joined. The Blacks couldn't possibly still be unaware of his true intentions. Edit: I forgot about the Black Family Tree...so we know that Reggy was born in 1961 and died in 1979...at age 18. I assume that he probably joined the DEs at 17, but it is possible that he joined at 16, like Draco. So we can assume that he joined the DEs in either 1977 or 1978, when Voldemort had been in power for 7-8 years when Reggy joined...I still don't think the Blacks would be in the dark about Voldemort's true intentions at 7-8 years into his reign of terror.

And where did Sirius get this information? He was not a Death Eater himself. I think there are two possible sources: Snape or from fellow prisoners in Azkaban. Now Snape, as we know, absolutely hated Sirius. Would he give him accurate information about his brother's death? I think it's possible that Snape, wanting to taunt Sirius (as he did during OotP) might exaggerate Reggy's incompetance, perhaps making it sound as if Reggy was an umimportant member of the Death Eaters who panicked at something. Likewise, if Sirius got this information from fellow Azkaban prisoners, would they give him an accurate version of the story? How much talking can they really do in Azkaban anyway, since they are constantly being accosted by dementors? And wouldn't the Death Eaters in Azkaban be pretty angry at Reggy for deserting, and would probably speak poorly of him, perhaps saying that he was unimportant and panicked? I'm not sure that either of these sources are a reliable source. The only other option is that Sirius asked Dumbledore to look into it (I'm sure Dumbledore had the resources to find out the answer), but I don't see Sirius caring enough to ask this.

HBP, ch.3, DumbledoreBlack family tradition decreed that the house was handed down the direct line, to the next male with the name of 'Black.' Sirius was the very last of that line, since his younger brother, Regulus, predeceased him and both were childless.

From Dumbledore's comment, all we can infer is that he died before Sirius and had no children. It also confirms that Reggy was younger than Sirius. Dumbledore does not mention Reggy being a Death Eater or comment on how he died.

HBP, ch. 4, SlughornWell, anyway, he was a big pal of your father's at school. The whole Black family had been in my house, but Sirius ended up in Gryffindor! Shame-he was a talented boy. I got his brother, Regulus, when he came along, but I'd have liked the set.

Slughorn's comment tells us that Regulus, like the rest of the Blacks except Sirius, was in Slytherin. We can also infer from this that Reggy was as talented as Sirius-otherwise, Slughorn would not have compared them as a set. I think we can also guess that Reggy was a Slug club member, since Slughorn remembers him, so he must have either been talented or had connections. The interesting thing is that Slughorn does not seem reluctant to mention Regulus, even though he was a Death Eater. This does not seem consistent with his reactions to other former students turning bad. He will not talk about Voldemort at all, and as soon as he finds out that Snape killed Dumbledore, he voices his amazement about his former student's actions. Does he mention any other former students who are Death Eaters? I know that we see Avery and Lestrange at the beginning of the horcrux memory, but I don't receall Slughorn ever talking about them, or any other former student that turned bad. If I am right, then Regulus is the only former student turned Death Eater that Slughorn mentions. What can this mean? Did Sluggy feel safe talking about him, since he is now long dead, or does Slughorn know something about Reggy that we don't?

HBP, ch. 6, LupinAnd they found Igor Karkaroff's body in a shack up north. The Dark Mark had been set over it-well, frankly, I'm surprised he stayed alive for even a year after deserting the Death Eaters; Sirius' brother, Regulus, only managed a few days as far as I can remember.

This comment tells us that Reggy only lived for a few days after officially deserting Voldemort, as far as Lupin can remember. I think we can take Lupin's word for this. But I wonder where Lupin got this information. From Sirius, perhaps? If so, we can question its reliability, since Sirius is quite biased against Reggy. How would someone who is on Dumbledore's side know the details of when Regulus deserted Voldemort? Perhaps from Snape, but again, we can question the reliability of this information. Would Snape have hated Regulus as much as he hated Sirius? Would he give Sirius the real story, or a distorted story, since he hated Sirius so much? I think Lupin's word can be trusted, but I wonder where he got the information.

While I've got the books open, here are a couple other quotes that are relevant to many of the RAB theories:

GoF, ch. 33, VoldemortAnd then I ask myself, how could they believe I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps that I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death? They, who had seen proofs of the immensity of my power in the times when I was mightier than any wizard living?

I know we've beaten this quote to death, so I'm going to make my comments brief. Despite the fact that Dumbledore doesn't believe that the DE's know about the horcruxes, this quote suggests to me that they had to have some idea. From this comment, it sounds to me as though Voldemort has shown the DE's some proof of his immortality, even if he did not tell them that he had made multiple horcruxes. However, a couple pages later, Lucius asks Voldemort how he managed to return, which indicates that he did not have any idea how Voldemort managed to stay alive.

GoF, ch 33, VoldemortMy curse was deflected upon myself by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself. Aaah...pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing could have prepared me for it. I was ripped from my body, I was less than the meanest ghost...but still, I was alive. What I was, even I do not know...I, who have gone farther than anybody along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal-to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked...for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it.

This one has been beaten to death, too, but here it is for reference.

HBP, ch. 2, Bellatrix"He shares everything with me!" said Bellatrix, firing up at once. "He calls me his most loyal, his most faithful-"
"Does he?" said Snape, his voice delicately inflected to suggest his disbelief. "Does he still, after the fiasco at the Ministry?"
"That was not my fault!" said Bellatrix, flushing. "The Dark Lord has, in the past, entrusted me with his most precious-if Lucius hadn't-"

Again, just for reference, since this one has been beaten to death, too. Either you believe she was referring to a horcrux or you don't.

HBP, ch. 28, RAB
To the Dark Lord
I know I will be dead long before you read this
but I want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret.
I have stolen the real Horcrux and intend to destroy it as soon as I can.
I face death in the hope that when you meet your match,
you will be mortal once more.
R.A.B.

This has been discussed before, but I'd just like to point out to those that might have forgotten that RAB thinks that there is only one horcrux. He believes that by destroying this horcrux, he can make Voldemort mortal again.


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For reference:RAB related quotes

Last edited by Weasleytwin; March 17th, 2006 at 6:17 pm.
  #236  
Old March 17th, 2006, 5:14 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

HBP was reliced in Finland the other day, the translation fro R.A.B is R.A.M and black in Finnish is Musta. Now i had my doubts before but that one bit of info has me convinced.
O ye and here is the link with some pics http://hpfanit.vuotis.net/kirjat/pp-yomyynti.php. I really don't like them covers man there noses are huge.


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  #237  
Old March 17th, 2006, 5:36 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Quote:
As posted by Nicole
Well, I've said this before, but... He's a wizard. He could conjure items and he could transfigure items and he could have gotten the locket from his girlfriend the previous Christmas (parallel found in Ron) and had it in a robe pocket or actually have been wearing it. If the latter, it wouldn't be so valuable that Regulus, who thought he was going to be killed shortly, wouldn't be willing to give it up in exchange for the Horcrux locket. [There were objections to conjuring and transfiguring because Reg didn't seem to have made a very good "match" to the Horcrux locket.]

Doesn't explain the note perfectly, but I don't think we can say Reg didn't write it in advance, merely expecting to leave it on location in some manner. Discovering that the Horcrux was a locket probably seemed providential!
Thanks Nicole. I agree he could have transfigured a rock or had a locket on him. The note only mentions a horcrux not a locket so he might have come to the cave with the note already written.

Quote:
Originally posted by kingwidgit
Fear, bullying, blackmail---this is how Voldemort operates, how he gets followers, how he employs spies. Even his "most loyal" are afraid of him.

This doesn't mean that the fearful Death Eaters can't---or won't---turn on him. In fact we have very strong evidence, canon-wise, that all the Death Eaters have done so at some point...None of his Death Eaters looked for him after his downfall {GoF, HBP}. In GoF, Voldemort himself speaks of it...and then mentions two specific Death Eaters. One to cowardly to return, he will pay. One who has left him forever, he will be killed---evidence of another Death Eater who also backed out of the deal---the Death Eater is assumed to be the very cowardly Karkaroff.

There must have been a catalyst for Regulus to rebel and act upon the knowledge he'd attained. Since he could have attained his knowledge of the cave at any point---not specifically the few days he'd spent on the run---there is no contradictory canon, as you claim. Regulus made a choice. Which is the intent of the series---Choices.
I agree with you about Voldemort ruling thru fear and bullying. He cannot be familiar with the DEs. They too are arrogant bullies and at the first hint of weakness would all turn on him. But that does not mean that they have not betrayed him in small measures at one time or other. BTW the one who has gone forever I think is Snape. He supposedly returns 2 hours later according to the Spinners End chapter in HBP.
Unlike Draco who was asked to kill Dumbledore (and at the time Draco was keen to join the Big Boys' Gang) who was not family etc. Regulus might have been asked to kill Sirius or his father. That is really feel is the Catalyst.

Thanks Weasleytwin for the long post and all the insights. JKR once said that the reader can depend on anything that is said by Hermione or Dumbledore. So that means what we know about Regulus is suspect. Except that Regulus died before Sirius.


  #238  
Old March 18th, 2006, 8:21 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desal
Thanks Nicole. I agree he could have transfigured a rock or had a locket on him. The note only mentions a horcrux not a locket so he might have come to the cave with the note already written.
I agree he could have just had the locket with him, but what are the chances he has a locket with the Slytherin insignia? Wasn't the fake locket a green and silver, just like the real one should have been? I don't think him carrying a copy of the horcrux he was about to replace is a coincidence.

I do agree though, that he could easily have transfigured a rock or other object to become the locket, after he saw the real one that is. That would allow him to make an exact copy. I only have one problem with that, how exact can you conjure things? Can you decide exactly what the rock turned locket will look like?



Last edited by RaspberryJam; March 18th, 2006 at 8:24 pm.
  #239  
Old March 18th, 2006, 8:33 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Sorry if it's the wrong thread (didn't wanted to open a new one for it)

After watching a crimi a (call it dumb) theory just came into my mind:
Ok, RAB is Regulus I'm sure. But what if he wasn't the one who stole and destroyed the horcrux. What if another person did it and put the blame on Regulus. It seems very unlikely to me that you destroy an important thing of the evilest wizard and writes a letter that it was you. You would destroy it and hide in hope that the person won't find out that it was you. "RAB's" acted strange for me in this case ...[/end of dumb theory]


Ehmm sorry if it's already discussed.


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  #240  
Old March 18th, 2006, 8:39 pm
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Re: Assuming RAB is Regulus A. Black v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaspberryJam
what are the chances he has a locket with the Slytherin insignia? Wasn't the fake locket a green and silver, just like the real one
Nope.
HBP, Ch. 28...Harry knew, as he picked it up, that there was something wrong...
He turned the locket over in his hands. This was neither as large as the locket he remembered seeing in the Pensieve, nor were there any markings upon it, no sign of the ornate S that was supposed to be Slytherin's mark.


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