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#61
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Re: On Linguistics
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#62
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Re: On Linguistics
Unfortunately not. This is just something I remember from reading books about exploring the world.
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#63
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Re: On Linguistics
BrianTung - maybe you're looking for something like this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnolinguistics
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#64
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Re: On Linguistics
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#65
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Re: On Linguistics
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What I learned from my Philology class is that in English, noun declensions/case inflections were dropped before 1066 because the English and the Vikings could understand each other if they did not use declensions. So a conquest led to that particular simplification. The Norman Conquest led to other simplifications... and also to the infinitely expandable vocabulary of the English language. Basically, necessity led to the simplification of the language. However, other Germanic languages - such as modern German (Hochdeutsch) - still have pretty elaborate article declensions. At the same time, Latin simplified as it morphed into the various Romance languages. I'd be curious to know how extensively this "simplification" principle is at work in languages outside of the Indo-European family... and also how extensively it is at work in Indo-European languages outside of the two largest Western European linguistic groupings (Germanic and Latinate). I wonder to what extent simplification occurred in the Celtic languages, for example.
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#66
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Re: On Linguistics
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#67
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Re: On Linguistics
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#68
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Re: On Linguistics
I took linguistics courses at university, and I'm interested in system-functional linguistics. I also made an analysis on it with my paper. I think studying linguistics is not only interesting but of great importance.
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#69
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Re: On Linguistics
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In the case of "I could care less", I suspect that the reason it has arisen in the US (but not in the UK) is because in US pronunciation, the "n" of "couldn't" tends to be elided, so "I couldn't care less" sounds quite a lot like "I could care less", especially if you're talking quickly. People may have started writing down what they thought they heard. If the meaning was confusing, though, people probably wouldn't have started using it in the first place. Humans have an innate sense of linguistic logic - unless they have some kind of brain disability affecting their use of language, people very rarely say things in their native language that are incomprehensible, because linguistic rules (which are not the same as the grammatical rules you find in a grammar textbook) are hard-wired in our brains. Non-standard grammatical forms like "We was robbed" or "me and John went to the shop" may make your ears bleed, but what the speaker means will almost always be perfectly clear. Native non-standard forms are very different from the kind of errors made by non-native speakers, which sometimes are confusing or incomprehensible. Quote:
Language doesn't work with a mathematical logic, so maxims like "2 negatives = one positive" or " 'I could care less' means the opposite of 'I couldn't care less' " are, IMO, meaningless. Last edited by Melaszka; October 21st, 2012 at 1:48 pm. |
#70
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Re: On Linguistics
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![]() All those negatives, double negatives or mixed positive/negative, etc. can be confusing. I never did make out what "Yes we have no bananas" meant. ![]() Quote:
Last edited by LyannaS; October 23rd, 2012 at 7:21 am. Reason: Correct typo |
#71
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Re: On Linguistics
I can't vouch for the accuracy of it, but Wikipedia actually has a whole page on that phrase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes!_We_Have_No_Bananas
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Last edited by Pox Voldius; October 21st, 2012 at 10:50 pm. |
#72
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Re: On Linguistics
Thanks for the info, Pox Voldius! I hadn't realized that that phrase went back so far back in time, I thought it came into being with that song that was so popular some years ago.
Concerning the double negative, I did specify "in my experience", which is mainly in the tri-State area around New York. I did travel West, but as a tourist, not staying around long enough to pick up on the local people's speech. Also, apart from a few days at a dud ranch, and a few weeks driving around the West (from Denver to San Francisco), I mainly stayed in big cities, not in small villages in the country. |
#73
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Re: On Linguistics
I completely agree with that. It's why I don't like the prescriptivist approach to grammar.
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#74
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Re: On Linguistics
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I'm also far more prescriptivist about English in the serious news media than I am in any other context. The use of "convince him/her to" on the BBC news and in the Daily Telegraph is doing my head in at the moment, although its appearance there probably denotes that it has now become a standard form, and I'll just have to live with it. Plus, it's perfectly obvious what it means, so I know I'm just being a language snob in objecting to it. Quote:
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#75
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Re: On Linguistics
So are the double/triple negatives meant for emphasis rather than cancelling each other out?
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#76
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Re: On Linguistics
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"Nis nu cwicra nan / þe ic him..." Or "There is not now alive none / to whom I..." I would admittedly translate this as "there is not now alone one to whom..." but even if I left the "none" in there, and say reformulated it into a more American style, a phrase like "There ain't none alive who I..." it works. It might sound strange either way with "none," since we've all learned to avoid that specific usage, but I honestly don't think it muddles the essential meaning of it, which is that nobody's alive. "He nevere yet no vileynye ne sayde / In all his lyf unto no maner wight"" Or "He never yet no villainy not said / In all his life to no manner of person." This phrase, some people might recognize, is (I believe) from the Canterbury Tales general prologue, in which the character Chaucer is describing the various companions he's found at the inn in Southwerk, in this case the Knight. Here at least I think you'd agree that sorting out the negatives mathematically would be a tall order, when in reality emphasis is exactly the point. The Knight definitely, most certainly, without a doubt, never ever once "said villainy." (Which in fact is demonstrably true of his character. Later in the Tales it becomes clear that he doesn't really approve of mean or aggressive people.) Anyway, in both of these cases the goal is emphasis, with perhaps a little bit of alliteration thrown in. For the Wanderer it isn't simply that nobody's around at the moment, there is nobody at all left. The Knight doesn't just have a reputation for being civil, he has actually never insulted anyone. In the case of American usages, one of which I postulated above, particularly by rural and African-American speakers, I would also say that emphasis is the rule, if we are unwilling to say that in fact double negatives themselves are the rule and not merely stylistic choices. Which is not to say double negatives can't cancel when the speaker plainly intends them to. For example, while the phrase "ain't none," I'm willing to bet, has never meant "there are some" without a particular (and easy-to-identify) emphasis on "none," in those cases it becomes more of a rhetorical issue than a grammatical one. The concept of litotes applies, I think, and so the double negative gets across the idea that while there is some of whatever it is, there is so little it barely merits an affirmative reply. I forget what I was talking about, but I better get back to work on my paper now. ![]() |
#77
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Re: On Linguistics
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A double, triple or even quadruple negative in Polish is still a negative. They don't cancel each other out. I wouldn't say they were for emphasis, either - they're just how you form a negative in Polish. e.g. Nigdy tam nie byłam [= "I have never been there", but literally "Never there I wasn't"] Nie jadłam zadnego chleba [= "I didn't eat any bread", but literally "I didn't eat no bread"] Having said that, there are certain types of double negative in Polish that do cancel each other out. e.g. Było nie bez znaczenia. [= "It was not without significance" i.e. "It had significance"] Jest nie niebezpieczny. [= "It is not unsafe" i.e. "It is safe"] But I would argue that that is pretty similar to English. If someone said to you in English "It is not without significance that Harry calls his first two children after his parents", they would clearly mean that it is significant that Harry calls his first two children after his parents. If someone says, "I am not unhappy with that decision", they mean (well, more or less - I'm aware there's a certain nuance) that they are happy. But if someone says, "We don't need no education" in English, despite generations of schoolteachers insisting that that sentence is "confusing" or that "logically the two negatives should cancel each other out", they pretty obviously mean "We don't need any education", NOT "We need some education". I would posit that no-one who wanted to say "We need some education" would ever phrase it "We don't need no education" because, like the Poles, we instinctively distinguish between two types of double negative - the sort where one negative DOES cancel the other out and the sort where it doesn't. Last edited by Melaszka; October 23rd, 2012 at 1:13 am. |
#78
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Re: On Linguistics
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(sorry, but the temptation was too great) ![]()
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#79
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Re: On Linguistics
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(Yes, the temptation was too great here too!) ![]() |
#80
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Re: On Linguistics
Wow, I just happened to look at this. Can you possibly provide me with a wider context for this sort of thing? Bear in mind I can read your alphabet of choice, and if you are willing to indulge me I'd be peachy.
By the way, I know that you are very reliably honest. Editorial explanation: What on earth... is there an earth? Last edited by canismajoris; October 24th, 2012 at 5:48 am. |
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