How was Harry rescued from the Godric's Hollow if the Fidelius Charm was used? v2

[Nicole]

Version One

Originally Posted by first post in original version

last few posts of original version:    

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Originally Posted by cab2311 I think if the charm was still operational when Hagrid went to get Harry, then the only conclusion is that he knew where the Potter's were before the charm was put into place and he continued to know where they were, just couldn't give out that information. Either Hagrid didn't know about the FC or he didn't know who the secret keeper was because he certainly didn't believe it to be Sirius at the time. My best guess it that the charm was lifted and Hagrid didn't know there even was a FC put into place. I believe either the charm was lifted by Lily prior to her dying or the charm lifted upon her death. I also believe that Dumbledore told Hagrid where to find Harry and where to bring him. The only way this is possible is if the charm was lifted or Harry wasn't included in the charm. Originally Posted by canismajoris I think it's most likely he didn't know about the Fidelius Charm. Originally Posted by som Yes, that is what I was going for with my question. Its the one that makes the most sense to me. We don't know if the charm was still operational or not, although I think it was, and I agree w/canismajoris that hagrid mostly likely didn't know about the FC.

Please continue.

[cgold]

I still don't think we have a conclusive answer to this question and I hope it's answered in Deathly Hallows. The ideas that work best for me are:

1. Peter Pettigrew sent notes to Order members but they thought it was Sirius. I don't like this idea because Dumbledore should have recognised the writing but I guess not necessarily so it could turn out to be the easiest and most plausible answer plus we have canon of this actually taking place.

2. Fidelius is linked to fidelity and a part of the charm's ability to work lies in no disclosing the secret to the very person the secret was intended to block. Perhaps when this happens the charm is broken.

Other points have been very good as well but these two seem most acceptable to me right now because the others have a lot of unanswered questions, like who cast the spell, etc.

Cheers

[mexicant]

I think I pointed out the first one in the last thread, so I will have to agree with you there.
What does anyone think of howlers playing some part? Well, not a howler, but a message very much like it disclosing the secret to certain people via owl. The way I see it, even if LV had DE's searching through owls (which I highly doubt), would they really touch what they thought was a howler? But then I suppose there could be discrepancies as to whether or not the voice was recognisable as Peter's.

[jammi567]

i don't think so.

what if Lord Voldemort legimenced the secret out of Peters brain, and because the secret is meant to be shared, not stolen, the charm broke.

[HGHPRW]

Wasn't the charm broken when the house was demolished? Or didn't Dumbledore know (and likely the Order also) where they were? Good point, maybe any legimence-able person can read where something is in someone's brain, the secret keeper's.

[unconvinced]

Isn't it just possible that as an Order member Hagrid knew the location of the Potters house before the charm was used on Wormtail, I don't think that the charm can make people forget what they already know just that new people can't be told.

[kluvhp]

Originally Posted by unconvinced

Isn't it just possible that as an Order member Hagrid knew the location of the Potters house before the charm was used on Wormtail, I don't think that the charm can make people forget what they already know just that new people can't be told.

That's possible.

Hasn't J.K. said that there was someone else at the Potter's house that night? Could that possibly tie in with all this?

[magical4life]

I like the idea of not forgetting what you already know. Otherwise it would be more like a memory loss spell.

[Agraphia]

Originally Posted by unconvinced

Isn't it just possible that as an Order member Hagrid knew the location of the Potters house before the charm was used on Wormtail, I don't think that the charm can make people forget what they already know just that new people can't be told.

I agree.

Hagrid knew where the Potters were all along, he just couldn't tell anyone. This seems like the simplist explaination. Is there any reason Hagrid couldn't have known? Especially since we know Dumbledore "trusts Hagrid with his life."

[cgold]

Originally Posted by Agraphia

I agree.

Hagrid knew where the Potters were all along, he just couldn't tell anyone. This seems like the simplist explaination. Is there any reason Hagrid couldn't have known? Especially since we know Dumbledore "trusts Hagrid with his life."

I actually don't like that idea because that would mean all those people who knew where Grimmauld Place was before could simply show up. It doesn't seem particularly safe unless they can both enter Grimmauld Place and use it but not see anyone else in it. That's just too much for my imagination to accept.

Cheers

[RemusLupinFan]

Originally Posted by HGHPRW

Wasn't the charm broken when the house was demolished?

I think that's a possibility. After all, once the Potters were dead, there really wasn't a secret to be kept by the charm anymore. I wonder if someone (maybe Dumbledore) was just able to tell Hagrid where baby Harry was so he could rescue him. However, this possibility depends on whether the charm was indeed broken with the house's destruction and if not, if Dumbledore was involved in the casting of the charm.

Originally Posted by unconvinced

Isn't it just possible that as an Order member Hagrid knew the location of the Potters house before the charm was used on Wormtail, I don't think that the charm can make people forget what they already know just that new people can't be told.

Though lots of people must have known where Godric's Hollow was before the charm was performed, I think the key here is that not all of them or none of them knew that the Potters were hiding there. So if they wanted to find Godric's Hollow they would have been able to do so, but if they wanted to find the Potters they wouldn't have been able to. Thus no one would really forget what they already knew, but at the same time no one who knew where the house was could find the Potters if they weren't told the secret.

[cgold]

Originally Posted by RemusLupinFan

I think that's a possibility. After all, once the Potters were dead, there really wasn't a secret to be kept by the charm anymore.

But the secret would or should also include Harry Potter, and he wasn't dead. I think once one of the Potters was alive the secret should still have held. I can't see why they would exclude Harry from the charm. He was the main reason they were in hiding in the first place.

Cheers

[crookshanksfan]

Originally Posted by mexicant

I think I pointed out the first one in the last thread, so I will have to agree with you there.
What does anyone think of howlers playing some part? Well, not a howler, but a message very much like it disclosing the secret to certain people via owl. The way I see it, even if LV had DE's searching through owls (which I highly doubt), would they really touch what they thought was a howler? But then I suppose there could be discrepancies as to whether or not the voice was recognisable as Peter's.

I've got another thought about how a note could work. We know that the Marauder's Map only becomes visible when the right words are said. Perhaps it's possible to open it using a non-verbal spell too? Just focus hard on the right words, and the map appears... My point is: there could be a note going around at the time of the FC working the same way. The order members knew the right words to make the information on the note appear (the location of the Potters), and also which words to use to conceal the information afterwards. Thus the note wouldn't be dangerous in the hands of an enemy. The note was of course written by Peter - OR: could it be written by Sirius, on Peter's orders, to conceal who the real Secret Keeper was?... (I don't even know if it would be possible for Sirius to write it down)

[cab2311]

Originally Posted by HGHPRW

Wasn't the charm broken when the house was demolished?

I think there is a huge difference between "almost destroyed" and demolished. The fact that it was "almost" means it wasn't destoyed.

Though lots of people must have known where Godric's Hollow was before the charm was performed, I think the key here is that not all of them or none of them knew that the Potters were hiding there. So if they wanted to find Godric's Hollow they would have been able to do so, but if they wanted to find the Potters they wouldn't have been able to.

I agree with this and it also fits in perfectly with Flitwick's explanation. He did simplify his explanation, but the meat of it is the same. You may have know where Godric's Hollow was, but you couldn't see the Potter's there unless you knew the secret.

[iluvhp_765]

I think the question that needs answered before the charm and how it was broken is why the Potters were in hiding. I can only venture a guess that it was voldy's threat and maybe the push of Dumbledore and the order to conceal the Potters when the prophecy was heard. The order and the potters may not have known, and Dumbledore may not have told them, but this would lead me to believe that Dumbledore and the order knew where the potters were.

[Daelin]

Originally Posted by cgold

I actually don't like that idea because that would mean all those people who knew where Grimmauld Place was before could simply show up. It doesn't seem particularly safe unless they can both enter Grimmauld Place and use it but not see anyone else in it. That's just too much for my imagination to accept.

In OOtP, we see people coming and going from 12 Grimmauld Place all through the day. Remember how the doorbell set off Sirius' mom every time?

So yeah, if you are 'in', you can come and go as you please.

[cgold]

Originally Posted by Daelin

In OOtP, we see people coming and going from 12 Grimmauld Place all through the day. Remember how the doorbell set off Sirius' mom every time?

So yeah, if you are 'in', you can come and go as you please.

I was referring to people were not "in" on the secret as Hagrid would not have been since he never knew in PoA that Pettigrew was the secret keeper.

Cheers

[Daelin]

Originally Posted by cgold

I was referring to people were not "in" on the secret as Hagrid would not have been since he never knew in PoA that Pettigrew was the secret keeper.

Cheers

Do we know that from Canon, or is that just an assumption? Seems to me that since Hagrid was sent there by Dumbledore, and he did not have to even ask for directions, that he was included. It is possible for example for Hagrid to have been told where the Potters were by a group which included Peter, without him knowing who the Secret Keeper was, since after all it seems that Dumbledore himself did not know that the Secret Keeper had been switched to Peter from Sirius. Remember also that the Marauders ran together, so it is not strange at all that Peter, James, Remus and Sirius would all be there when Hagrid/Dumbledore/Etc. were told.

[cgold]

Originally Posted by Daelin

Do we know that from Canon, or is that just an assumption? Seems to me that since Hagrid was sent there by Dumbledore, and he did not have to even ask for directions, that he was included. It is possible for example for Hagrid to have been told where the Potters were by a group which included Peter, without him knowing who the Secret Keeper was, since after all it seems that Dumbledore himself did not know that the Secret Keeper had been switched to Peter from Sirius. Remember also that the Marauders ran together, so it is not strange at all that Peter, James, Remus and Sirius would all be there when Hagrid/Dumbledore/Etc. were told.

PoA "An immensley complex spell," he [Professor Flitwick] said squeakily "involving the concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window."

Based on how the spell works only Pettigrew could have given the secret. Dumbledore also knows how the secret works so I don't think they could have tricked him like that. There is no way what you're saying could work. The only way it could work is if Pettigrew sent them a note.

Cheers

[icklek]

Originally Posted by cgold

The only way it could work is if Pettigrew sent them a note.

Or there's the possibility that those who knew the secret before the charm was cast will still know it afterwards, and won't need to be re-told...