Centaurs: Group Analysis

[Moriath]

Background information: Harry meets Centaurs as early as in his first year at Hogwarts. Centaurs do not like to meddle in the affairs of Muggles and wizards alike and avoid all worldly affairs. They spend their time reading the future in the movements of stars and planets but they keep their knowledge mostly to themselves and do usually not interfere. The Harry Potter Lexicon states that the Centaurs have chosen to be considered Beasts by the Ministry and do not take part in governing at all. The Centaurs we meet throughout the series all live in the Forbidden Forest and are all male. They are very capable of defending themselves - as Dolores Umbridge experiences in OotP - and some have quite a temper. Centaurs are proud and consider themselves far more intelligent than humans. For them, human divination is very limited and inferior to their own ability to read future events.

Known Centaurs

Bane is a black-haired Centaur, who is very proud and strongly dislikes wizards. He is wild-looking. Dolores Umbrige learns that one should not mess with him because Bane carries her off after her attack on Magorian in OotP.

Ronan is a Centaur with red hair and a chestnut body and is the first Centaur Harry and Hermione ever see. Hagrid talks to him in SS/PS during his search for the unicorn. Ronan's answers, however, are rather vague.

Magorian has also a chestnut body and is apparently the leader of the Centaurs of the forest. He mistrusts humans almost as much as Bane does. The HPL states that his name is pseudo-Greek, "which is fitting for a Centaur because those creatures come from Greek mythology."

Firenze is a Centaur with white-blond hair and palomino body. His personality differs greatly from the other Centaurs, in that he trusts humans and realises that the war won't stop at the borders of the Forbidden Forest. He rescues Harry in SS/PS and lets him ride on his back - something the other Centaurs consider humiliating. When Dumbledore asks him in OotP to teach Divination at Hogwarts he agrees and as a consequence he is banished from the herd in the Forbidden Forest. Hagrid even has to stop the other Centaurs from killing him.

Some quotes by Centaurs:

"Mars is bright tonight." (Bane and Ronan in SS/PS)

"Good luck, Harry Potter. The planets have been read wrongly before now, even by Centaurs. I hope this is one of those times." (Firenze in SS/PS)

"In the past decade, the indications have been that wizardkind is living through nothing more than a brief calm between two wars. Mars, bringer of battle, shines brightly above us, suggesting that the fight must soon break out again." (Firenze in OotP)

Things to be discussed:

• What role will the Centaurs play in DH? Will they interfere with human affairs and leave the forest or will Firenze remain the exception?
• Whatever the Centaurs read in the stars seems rather gloomy. Does Firenze's statement in SS/PS foreshadow Harry's defeat?
• Why do we never meet any female Centaurs?
• Why are Centaurs so suspicious when it comes to humans?
• Were the Centaurs right in choosing to be classified as Beasts? Should they have offered their wisdom to the wizarding world?

[silmarilien]

What role will the Centaurs play in DH? Will they interfere with human affairs and leave the forest or will Firenze remain the exception?
i think he will, how ever they might fight their own battle in protecting the forest from wizards as the may be threatened by the likely 'Hogwarts take over'... in light of this perhaps they will give info that might help Harry on his final quest.

Whatever the Centaurs read in the stars seems rather gloomy. Does Firenze's statement in SS/PS foreshadow Harry's defeat?
i have thought about this.. since the stars have been misread before.. maybe they see Harry's failure there and are hoping to be wrong.. how ever the clue is very vague and might just mean other reads (lack of better word there) that had nothing to do with the potterverse in particular..

Why do we never meet any female Centaurs?
good question, however in all the information i find on the net it seems that centaurs are rather cruel, violent and barbaric towards women.. maybe that's why.. the most famous myth has them trying to rape an entire wedding (as in all the women invited.. including the bride) Folo...Neso.. and others..

Why are Centaurs so suspicious when it comes to humans?
mankind has taken, throughout history, the place of superiority and so have the wizards.. they think they're better than the rest of the magical creatures simply becuase they can use a wand. Since they were not regarded historicly.. and still aren't.. as equals, being subject of the whole half-breed thing.. makes them suspicious of humans, they're half threatened, half insulted..

Were the Centaurs right in choosing to be classified as Beasts? Should they have offered their wisdom to the wizarding world?
i think they were misclassified, maybe had theybeen reated differently they would have been a lot of help with all their information about the future and the passing of time written in the stars..

[guad]

What role will the Centaurs play in DH? Will they interfere with human affairs and leave the forest or will Firenze remain the exception?I think they will not join with the humans. (except for their interaction with Umbridge, which was one of their brilliant moments )
Centaurs are arrogant. They do not want to mix with humans because they consider themselves to be superior to wizards. Even Firenze, who seems more open to wizards has a very low opinion on humans and their Seer capabilities, when he gives the class and talks about Trelawney.
Whatever the Centaurs read in the stars seems rather gloomy. Does Firenze's statement in SS/PS foreshadow Harry's defeat?
I don't think so. As far as I recall, he only forsees that there is a second war coming and difficult times are ahead.
Why do we never meet any female Centaurs? Hmmm, because they keep them hidden? No idea though
Why are Centaurs so suspicious when it comes to humans? Humans have not deserved their trust or friendship so far, and for what we can see from the wizarding society, I can't really blame them. Dumbledore is the only wizard who treats all creatures with respect and as equals, and this is the reason Firenze helps him. Not for Hogwarts, but for Dumbledore.
Firenze and the others also seem to have a certain respect for Hagrid though.
Were the Centaurs right in choosing to be classified as Beasts? Should they have offered their wisdom to the wizarding world? They wanted to distanciate themselves from the wizards. The fountain of magical brethem is probably something humiliating for them and I could see that they didn't want to be considered as equals by wizards, because they don't want to have anything to do with them. Being classified as beasts, they achieve that the wizards leave them alone.

[dobbysfriend]

Were the Centaurs right in choosing to be classified as Beasts? Should they have offered their wisdom to the wizarding world?
They are too arrogant or too afraid to interfere in the coming war. They may believe that if they distance themselves from the events, that they will not be affected by them. They have seen what is coming in the stars and they are afraid of it.

[Tinkie]

Originally Posted by guad

What role will the Centaurs play in DH? Will they interfere with human affairs and leave the forest or will Firenze remain the exception?I think they will not join with the humans. (except for their interaction with Umbridge, which was one of their brilliant moments )
Centaurs are arrogant. They do not want to mix with humans because they consider themselves to be superior to wizards. Even Firenze, who seems more open to wizards has a very low opinion on humans and their Seer capabilities, when he gives the class and talks about Trelawney.
Whatever the Centaurs read in the stars seems rather gloomy. Does Firenze's statement in SS/PS foreshadow Harry's defeat?
I don't think so. As far as I recall, he only forsees that there is a second war coming and difficult times are ahead.
Why do we never meet any female Centaurs? Hmmm, because they keep them hidden? No idea though
Why are Centaurs so suspicious when it comes to humans? Humans have not deserved their trust or friendship so far, and for what we can see from the wizarding society, I can't really blame them. Dumbledore is the only wizard who treats all creatures with respect and as equals, and this is the reason Firenze helps him. Not for Hogwarts, but for Dumbledore.
Firenze and the others also seem to have a certain respect for Hagrid though.
Were the Centaurs right in choosing to be classified as Beasts? Should they have offered their wisdom to the wizarding world? They wanted to distanciate themselves from the wizards. The fountain of magical brethem is probably something humiliating for them and I could see that they didn't want to be considered as equals by wizards, because they don't want to have anything to do with them. Being classified as beasts, they achieve that the wizards leave them alone.

Excellent post ! I agree on all of the points you make. The Centaurs are arrogant as much as they are wise and feel that wizards are not equal to them. So they probably wanted to belong to a different category from that of humans, even if those are powerful wizards.
In Greek mythology, Centaurs taught to select humans (e.g. Hercules) about the sciences, astronomy, physics. But they usually lived in the forests and would rarely come out. Students had to go to them. They were considered very wise and were separated from the rest of the world.

[Hes]

What role will the Centaurs play in DH? Will they interfere with human affairs and leave the forest or will Firenze remain the exception?

I don't think they will join a battle as group. The only Centaur that I can imagine to play some role is Firenze. The others have made it plain enough that they don't like humans and what is happening is none of their business. Firenze likes Harry and might want to help him as some debt to Dumbledore. Would be nice if Firenze joined a battle, although I wonder how he would react on magic.

Whatever the Centaurs read in the stars seems rather gloomy. Does Firenze's statement in SS/PS foreshadow Harry's defeat?

Mars is the god of war, so if the stars and planets are to be believed there was a war to be expected in the future... that sort of came through. But it doesn't have to mean Harry will be defeated.

I think Centaurs just like to be gloomy just like house elves like to work, it's part of them.

Why do we never meet any female Centaurs?

Maybe in the opinion of Centaurs you can't have females and foals walking around, when you are on a mission. When we see the Centaurs they are always armed and grumpy... I am sure they are around somewhere... or they have left, because they couldn't stand the gloominess?

Why are Centaurs so suspicious when it comes to humans?

They have reason, the Ministry sees them as animals, but they are part human. They have the intelligence of humans or maybe more, when treated as an animal I would be suspicious of any human too. If there weren't, they might end up in as mules with little wizards and witches on their back... very humiliating.

Were the Centaurs right in choosing to be classified as Beasts? Should they have offered their wisdom to the wizarding world?

They prefer to be among their own kind and not be involved with others, classified as beast they managed to be left alone.

If they would have participated they would have met with prejudices and mostly be ignored by people like Umbridge anyway.

[Tinkie]

Nice post Hes!!

A point I forgot to make is that we never hear of a female Centaur in Greek Mythology. I only know of one Centaur who fell in love, and that was with a human, Hercules' wife.

[Hes]

Originally Posted by Tinkie

Nice post Hes!!

A point I forgot to make is that we never hear of a female Centaur in Greek Mythology. I only know of one Centaur who fell in love, and that was with a human, Hercules' wife.

Yes that's true! I kind of hope female centaurs do exist in the Magical world though

[Tinkie]

Yes, it would kind of weird if there were only males.

[RemusLupinFan]

What role will the Centaurs play in DH? Will they interfere with human affairs and leave the forest or will Firenze remain the exception?
It's possible the Centaurs will continue to make predictions, but I actually don't think they'll have a huge role in DH. I think Firenze might be the only Centaur to interfere with human affairs, since he's kind of estranged from the rest of his pack. He might join the battle, but I don't think any of the other Centaurs will.

Whatever the Centaurs read in the stars seems rather gloomy. Does Firenze's statement in SS/PS foreshadow Harry's defeat?
I'm optimistic, so I don't think it does. Since he didn't actually give us a prediction, I'd say there's a good chance this doesn't foreshadow Harry's demise.

Why do we never meet any female Centaurs?
Maybe they stay wherever their homes are and don't go roaming the forest? I agree, there have to be female Centaurs.

Why are Centaurs so suspicious when it comes to humans?
Maybe it stems from past behavior of wizards. Perhaps in the past there was persecution of non-human creatures, or maybe they tried to interfere in Centaur affairs.

Were the Centaurs right in choosing to be classified as Beasts? Should they have offered their wisdom to the wizarding world?
Well, I think the Centaurs had the right to choose how they wanted to be classified. I don't think they were right or wrong, but I'm sure their wisdome could have have benefitted the wizarding world (and the war against Voldemort I'm sure).

[cincyhermione]

•What role will the Centaurs play in DH? Will they interfere with human affairs and leave the forest or will Firenze remain the exception?

I think most centaurs will stand and fight if things get bad enough. Surely they will realize (as Firenze did) that the wars of humans will not come to a screeching halt at the edge of the forbidden forest. On a side note, is Firenze the Italian for the city we know as Florence?

•Whatever the Centaurs read in the stars seems rather gloomy. Does Firenze's statement in SS/PS foreshadow Harry's defeat?

Their statements are so vague that it is very difficult to tell what this might mean. I am hoping that a prediction of defeat for Harry is one of those rare misreadings that Firenze alluded to.

•Why do we never meet any female Centaurs?

I have no idea! I don’t think I ever saw anything in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them regarding centaur gender; only their classification-by-choice as beasts, etc. I don’t have my copy handy, so I’m hoping someone else does.

•Why are Centaurs so suspicious when it comes to humans?
From their point of view, I can totally understand their suspicions. Humans have clouded the skies and muddied the waters of the earth with pollution, and have been destroying natural resources for centuries. As each century passes, they seem to show less and less regard for the natural world, something which the centaurs hold very dear. Also, they often have the unpleasant qualities of greed, laziness, and senseless violence. None of these seem to play such a large role in the centaurs’ world.

•Were the Centaurs right in choosing to be classified as Beasts? Should they have offered their wisdom to the wizarding world?
I think the wizarding world would seek to use things of such great power in powerful (and likely dangerous) ways. If they had access to what they viewed as straight-up predicting the future, I certainly believe they would abuse it. Humans have always abused powerful innovations (nuclear energy, firearms, etc.) and I don’t think the wizarding world is necessarily above such abuses of power. I do think that the centaurs are above it, and this is why I think they made the right decision in remaining isolated and protecting their knowledge from corruption.

[Hes]

Originally Posted by cincyhermione

I think most centaurs will stand and fight if things get bad enough. Surely they will realize (as Firenze did) that the wars of humans will not come to a screeching halt at the edge of the forbidden forest.

They will understand that there hide out is threatened, but I rather think they would prefer to move to somewhere else then to get involved. They just don't like and trust wizards and would not help them.

On a side note, is Firenze the Italian for the city we know as Florence?

Yes it is

I have no idea! I don’t think I ever saw anything in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them regarding centaur gender; only their classification-by-choice as beasts, etc. I don’t have my copy handy, so I’m hoping someone else does.

Nope, no mention whatsoever about gender.

[fruitia pickleweed]

It bugs me a little that the Black centaur is set up to be the mean and violent individual, the chestnut brown ones are something in-between, and Firenze, the saintly, is palomino/blonde.

JKR obviously has worked hard not to classify wizards and witches according to their color. In fact, she seems to have bent over backwards to make sure that no human characters of color are really evil or seem to face any color discrimination. Wizard/Muggle is the surrogate for racial discrimination.

But along with the fact that all of her main human characters are White, this thing with the Centaurs is a bit bothersome. And in that there are no mares and foals in sight, maybe a little sexist too. I think all this is just the same as in the Narnia books, actually.

However, I'm sure we'll see more of Firenze and how he handles Divination, and look forward to it.

The Centaurs are interesting in that they have made a positive choice to eschew "civilization," and that -- unlike with human native peoples -- it's admirable that the wizarding world has respected their decision.

Like the ancient Greeks who first described them, they cultivate their bodies and minds rather than an artificial technology and they are obviously proud and touchy and individualistic; the seclusion of females might also reflect that culure. So might Firenze's frank admission of the difficulties in prediction resemble the modest beginnings of science in ancient Greece.

It would be interesting to learn more of their life when wizards are not in the picture, but I bet we won't. They would not want us hanging around.

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by fruitia pickleweed

It bugs me a little that the Black centaur is set up to be the mean and violent individual, the chestnut brown ones are something in-between, and Firenze, the saintly, is palomino/blonde.

JKR obviously has worked hard not to classify wizards and witches according to their color. In fact, she seems to have bent over backwards to make sure that no human characters of color are really evil or seem to face any color discrimination. Wizard/Muggle is the surrogate for racial discrimination.

I don't think that the colouring of the Centaurs is of importance. Voldemort himself is described as having skin whiter than a skull. His unnaturally pale skin is mentioned over and over again. On the other hand, whiteness has always symbolised purity and innocence in many cultures. Unicorns are white, doves of peace are white etc. That's why I do not see subtle racism when it comes to Centaurs.

[HerbProfNeville]

- What role will the Centaurs play in DH? Will they interfere with human affairs and leave the forest or will Firenze remain the exception?
I think Dumbledore's words about unity being important at Hogwarts - all 4 houses working together - will apply outside the castle walls too. I don't think it is coincidental that there are 4 species of magical brethren - wizards, goblins, house elves and centaurs. I'm not sure if there's a direct correlation to the 4 houses at Hogwarts - but it seems likely to me that the 4 races will all join at the end against Voldemort. The centaurs have not experiences losses that we know of, but they did show up at Dumbledore's funeral. Their envolvement may be reactionary, but I don't think it will take the battle being on the outskirts of the forbidden forest for them to swallow their pride and join the fray along side the Order.

-Whatever the Centaurs read in the stars seems rather gloomy. Does Firenze's statement in SS/PS foreshadow Harry's defeat?
I think it just foreshadows the impending war/battle. I don't know that the outcome was there. I think it amounts to - I see a battle coming, I just pulled you away from Voldemort the darkest wizard ever, and you're only 11. Not very good odds.

-Why do we never meet any female Centaurs?
Couldn't tell you. They exist in ancient artwork, but there aren't too many myths about them. My guess would support some of the things mentioned by other posters. Centaurs are protective of their ways and it would be in their nature to hide their familial aspects. The fact that they don't attack the young of wizards is telling. Also, that they are only ever seen when responding to the presence of wizards in the forest could be important here - the females and young would not voluntarilly approach a creature they didn't trust.

-Why are Centaurs so suspicious when it comes to humans?
The idea that it's an environmental respect thing is interesting. My personal thinking is that humans in the muggle world, and wizards in the magical, all attempt to hold dominion over everything. We domesticate and subjegate every race and species we hold to be inferior. We take for granted that our will is just and our authority divine or absolute. House Elves, Goblins and Centaurs are all considered magical bretheren, yet we see at the ministry how the fountain statues make a mockery of each of their race with cartoony, minstral representations oogling the witch and wizard with awestruck looks. That idea that isolation and withholding the magic of their ancient way from humans ensures that wizards can not abuse or misuse that knowledge is a wonderful observation as well.

-Were the Centaurs right in choosing to be classified as Beasts? Should they have offered their wisdom to the wizarding world?
Wether they were right or not, I can see why they did it. If being a part of Wizarding society means playing by their rules, then they'll take to the forest, thank you very much. The refusal to accept Wizarding authority is the means by which they maintain their independance. As opposed to the House Elves who assume the role given them by wizard kind, and the Goblins who earned (near) equal footing through years of revolution and hard work - the Centaurs choose to hide from it all in their forest. And while that may be their right, it seems like an argument that will be used to get them involved ultimately. I don't know that they should offer their wisdom entirely - that would have been silly. But perhaps some level of diplomacy could have been employed for the good of the magical world and our world as well. A better question might be, Were wizards right to expect Centaurs (or Goblins or House Elves for that matter) to conform to their unilateral government and subjegation of their kind without considering them first as equals in the formation of government?

[ahsweape]

Should they have offered their wisdom to the wizarding world?


I don't think that the Centaurs are refusing to offer their wisdom to humans out of arrogance or suspicion or any particularly short-sided or personal reason. I agree that these are the reasons they are pretty rude to humans; they clearly think of themselves as better than humans.

But I really got the sense in the first book that the Centaurs are somehow magically forbidden from using their powers of foresight to shape the coming events of humans. Which seems to be a good decision to me. It would be a little too close to playing God if the Centaurs began to depart their wisdom on any side. I kind of feel like the Centaurs were given this gift, but are somehow magically bound from ever using the gift as a weapon against anyone, and so they must just observe how history plays out rather than interfere with it.

[gabrielle_004]

What role will the Centaurs play in DH? Will they interfere with human affairs and leave the forest or will Firenze remain the exception?

I think that the Centaurs will play some roles in DH. It just seems too strange for them to appear in PS, and then again in HBP, and not play an important part in DH. I think that the Centaurs will join the war - probably because they "read it in the stars" that they should help.

Whatever the Centaurs read in the stars seems rather gloomy. Does Firenze's statement in SS/PS foreshadow Harry's defeat?

I think that Firenze did see something in the stars that represented Harry, but I don't think that it's his defeat. I think that maybe the Centaurs like to word things so that everything sounds really gloomy, even if it really isn't half bad.

Why do we never meet any female Centaurs?

I would have to agree with what previous people have said about Greek myth and the fact that Centaurs aren't normally friendly around women. Although there maybe be female Centaurs in the forest after all... maybe they have a more "stay at home and take care of the children" role, rather then "roam the forest and star gaze".

Why are Centaurs so suspicious when it comes to humans?

I think that the Centaurs feel like they are above Humans, but at the same time, they see them as a threat as well. I'm pretty sure that Centaurs fear humans to a point, especially the wizards because they could murder the whole lot of them if they wanted to. And yet on the other hand, I think the Centaurs also have little respect for Humans since they do not understand the world/stars/fate as they do. In my opinion, the Centaurs greatest down fall is that they see Humans as "weak" because we cannot read the future in the stars and blah blah blah...

Were the Centaurs right in choosing to be classified as Beasts? Should they have offered their wisdom to the wizarding world?

I don't think they really choose to be classified as beast. I think that when it comes down to it, a wizard really wouldn't listen to a Centaur because they see it as silly stargazing and see the whole thing as being completely pointless (plus the Centaurs talk in code and that can be very very annoying. It's as if they are hinting you towards the answer, but you really don't know what the heck the hints mean.)

Also I think that a Centaur really wouldn't put up with the "slow" thinking mind of a human, and our inability to read the stars.

So I think in the end it was more of an agreement that the Centaurs became beasts. I think to the Centaurs, they didn't care anyways because the classifying system was made by Wizards for Wizards. Just like how humans classify animals into families, orders, classes, divisions, kingdoms, etc, etc. A monkey doesn't care what order it's in, nor does an octopus - the classification doesn't really mean anything to them - just like with the Centaurs. They don't classify themselves under Wizard law - because really, it doesn't mean anything or do anything for them.

[HerbProfNeville]

additional thought about the lack of female centaurs thus far in the books - If they have the upper torso of a female human and centaurs don't wear clothes, perhaps Jo is just trying to keep the rating on this children's book series manageable. She get enough flak from conservative goups as it is without having to wory about presenting possible interpretations of partial nudity as well. Seems as likely as anything else that's been suggested.

[Hes]

Originally Posted by HerbProfNeville

additional thought about the lack of female centaurs thus far in the books - If they have the upper torso of a female human and centaurs don't wear clothes, perhaps Jo is just trying to keep the rating on this children's book series manageable. She get enough flak from conservative goups as it is without having to wory about presenting possible interpretations of partial nudity as well. Seems as likely as anything else that's been suggested.

Good thought, although I think if she wanted too, she could have gotten around that. Since mermaids in stories tend to wear a bikini top, female centaurs could wear bra's. But I guess Jo had no need for female centaurs, seeing that they probably wouldn't be as aggressive as their male counterparts. In the books the main role of the centaurs seems to be defending the forest from unwanted people. Female centaurs, perhaps with foals would only be in the way. That's why in my view she didn't create them.

[Shannah]

Originally Posted by HerbProfNeville

additional thought about the lack of female centaurs thus far in the books - If they have the upper torso of a female human and centaurs don't wear clothes, perhaps Jo is just trying to keep the rating on this children's book series manageable. She get enough flak from conservative goups as it is without having to wory about presenting possible interpretations of partial nudity as well. Seems as likely as anything else that's been suggested.

I agree with this 100%. Rememer, two of the 3 main characters are teenage boys, I don't think JKR wanted to deal with all of that in the first book at the veery least. From a literary standpoint, it makes sense to avoid all of that.