Did Hermione kiss Viktor Krum? v4

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by Nicole

Harry retrieves the Marauder's Map. Harry knows the name "Godric's Hollow" though it's never been mentioned to him by anyone; he knows not only the name, but that it's where his parents were killed and buried. Ron knowing all about the Hand of Glory. There, that's at least 3 instances of major characters knowing/doing something that wasn't shown on page.

Jo addressed the Marauder's Map issue - revealed that it caused confusion and that it was a mistake not to include something on page to show how he got it back. She also explained how he did so there would be no more confusion.

How Harry knows the name Godric's Hollow is indicated on page with the Daily Prophet printing articles about Harry and Voldemort - and showing that Harry is reading them. He's known that his parents were killed in their home since the beginning so there's nothing unusual there.

Harry told Ron about seeing the Malfoys in Borgin and Burkes in COS. They spent a lot of time speculating about Malfoy because they thought he was the heir of Slytherin - planning what they were going to ask him with the Polyjuice Potion - and so on.

So those two are indicated on page and the first has been addressed and admitted to be a mistake. I don't see Jo making the same mistake twice - particularly regarding something that turned out to be significant to the Ron/Hermione subplot.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

As I said in my previous post, we have 2 sources of canon, the books and JKR. Here is yet another quote where JKR tells us that Hermione did indeed get some action with Krum. (bolding is mine)

No, Jo said that "it dawns on Ron". She never said that Hermione actually had any actions - just that Ron thinks she has. She's been very careful in that regard and she has never directly stated that Hermione made out with Krum. She always puts it through Ron's point of view with things like "Ron would like to know" or "It dawns on Ron".

Originally Posted by seeker

Meesha, I think at this point you're just inventing rules of literature and expecting JKR to follow them. Where do we get the rule that every action by a main, non POV character needs to be shown on page in order to be mentioned later on?

I learned it in college. My literature professor would cringe at some of the arguments being presented here. What one person considers to be "normal" behavior cannot apply - nor can personal opinion. There must be something on page to at least indicate it.

Even if this were a hard and fast literary convention, JKR isn't perfect, and there is no reason to believe that she couldn't have violated it.

No, she's not perfect, but when she makes a mistake, she admits to it - like with the Marauder's Map. She has also gone on record to say that she hates the kind of writing where plot holes are created and questions are raised and meticulously tries to avoid that. That's exactly what this does and she has yet to address it directly in any form, so there is more to this issue to be revealed. There is no other reason for Jo to keep quiet about - particularly when she had so much fun discussing everyone else's relationships and discussed in detail what she was trying to accomplish.

My point is, I love these books, but JKR isn't the best writer who ever lived. Even if we accept the dubious premise that Hermione's obvious embarassment about the whole Krum issue, Ron's jealousy, their canonical date and other canon-implied meetings have not adequately prepared the reader for the "revelation" that two teenagers shared a real kiss, it is quite possible that Rowling just got to HBP, said "Hmm... how can I make Ron mad enough at Hermione to date Lavender?" and decided to throw in that detail to push him over the edge.

I think that's exactly what Jo did. However - because she is so meticulous about avoiding plot holes, her options were limited. She cannot directly say that Hermione and Krum did make out because there is nothing in GOF that even remotely indicates that they had that kind of relationship. She can have Ginny make an assumption and later reveal it to be incorrect. That is a standard literary device - particularly with romance. A misunderstanding occurs to prevent the couple from getting together too soon in the story and then everything is cleared up later to they can get together.

I remember in the old Sibling Theory threads you (and I, and others) always argued against the pro-sibbers improbable contention that JKR responding that "no" to the question "does Hermione have any siblings" still allowed for ST because she might have been referring only to the scrapped Granger sister and not to Harry. But you are doing something similar here. In at least two interviews, at least one of which was after HBP and after JKR was aware of ship wars, JKR said something to strongly suggest that Hermione and Krum had some romantic involvement beyond the Ball. I'm not saying she was Krum's girlfriend, or that it was deep and abiding love, but taken together, I think it is safe to say that the author confirms some relationship. I can give you that JKR's "everyone is in love with the wrong people" comment was flippant and ill-thought out, although even that suggests that Hermione is interested in Krum, just as Harry is in Cho and Ron is in Fleur. But I can't accept that "Ron realizes that Hermione has had some action" doesn't suggest that there was a kiss. She doesn't say "Ron believes" or "thinks" that Hermione has had some action, but that he "realizes" it. That pretty clearly implies that he was correct in trusting Ginny.

In keeping her answers through Ron's point of view, Jo raises doubt in the validity of Ginny's statement. She does not say "Ron realizes" - she says that "It dawns on Ron" - which means that Ron thinks it - not that it is true.

The difference in the two situations is that the sibling quote is a direct question with a direct answer. The quotes regarding Hermione and Krum are vague and kept through Ron's point of view - no direct answer is ever given. The quote about "everyone being in love" does not match what was shown on page in GOF and it is obvious that Jo was having fun and joking around when she said that. They all went to the ball with the wrong person, but the only two people demonstrated to have any kind of feelings for the wrong person were Harry and Krum - not "everyone".

I also don't buy your certainty that Hermione and Krum couldn't possibly have had time to kiss. First of all, while your explanation of why it is unlikely that it occurred during the Yule Ball makes sense, I'm not sure how closely JKR was scrutinizing the time line. Just as when readers asked how Harry got the map back, JKR just said that she expected us to realize that he would find a way to get into Moody's office a nick it back (and this is the POV character, remember), I bet if you asked her about this she would say something like "I'm sure they found their moment while Ron was away." Ron was watching them, but he isn't a stalker and he was canonically absent for part of the Ball.

Jo also said that not including something on page to show how Harry got the map back was a mistake. It caused confusion and she apologized for that. I don't see her making the same mistake twice.

The timing doesn't work and Jo would be hard pressed to explain it. How exactly would Hermione and Krum fit the snogging in? Krum had to locate Hermione in the crowd - they had drinks - they resumed dancing. There simply is not enough time presented for them to leave the Great Hall, make out, return, and be in the middle of a dance when Harry and Ron return. Unless they were making out in the middle of the dance floor in front of everyone - which would have been all over the school - it simply does not work.

In order to assume that Hermione left the Great Hall at any point, there must be something on page to indicate that she did. Harry and/or Ron would have to note that she was absent - or someone else ask them where she was to draw attention to the fact that she was not there. Otherwise we are left with only one conclusion - Hermione never left the Great Hall until midnight when everyone left.

However, I think it is quite possible they kissed on another occasion. The timeline of the book doesn't support the idea that their "relationship" was over by the end of the Ball. The Ball is at Christmas. The second Task is on February 24th, a full two months later. If Hermione had made it clear that she didn't return Krum's affections and they hadn't met alone since then, Krum would have to be very shallow indeed for her to be the thing he would miss most. How could he miss her if they never saw each other anyway?

GOF doesn't support the idea of them having any kind of relationship beyond friendship. Hermione wasn't attracted to Krum romantically. From what is shown on page, they were never alone together. He asked her to the ball in the library - where his flock of fangirls consistently hovered in the background. The ball was a public event and they never left the Great Hall. They said good night in the Entrance Hall with students milling around.

Krum didn't actually have feelings for Hermione - although he thought he did. It was the fact that she wasn't attracted to him that peaked his interest. He had all those girls fawning all over him - following him around - he could have any one of them at the snap of a finger. But he couldn't have Hermione and that made him want her all the more.

None of this makes Hermione a bad person, or interferes with her character. To have kissed him once doesn't mean she led him on or felt deeply about him, it means that she was a typical 14 year old just a bit star-struck by an older sports star who shows interest in her. Remember, this is the same girl who only two years earlier had mooned over the incompetent pretty boy Lockhart. She has matured since then, and isn't about to become one of Krum's foolish fangirls. But she would have to be inhuman to be completely impervious to Krum's advances.

Inhuman? Sorry, but not being attracted to someone doesn't make you "inhuman". She thought Krum was a nice guy and wanted to be friends with him. She was never "starstruck" by Krum. She could care less about Quidditch. She was infatuated with Lockhart because he was a famous author and had written all the books for their class.

It's not the idea of a kiss that bothers me - I think she should have kissed him - although Jo did make Krum too old for her, but that's another issue. What bothers me about this is the fact that Hermione would have had to go to great extremes to hide such a thing. It simply is not feasible that she could have had any kind of serious relationship with any boy and neither Harry nor Ron notice anything unusual - particularly Ron because he was jealous. She spends too much time with Harry and Ron for that to be possible. Then you have Krums fangirls following him around and Rita Skeeter buzzing around in beetle form trying to dig up dirt. It simply is not feasible that not one single person would have noticed anything. If Hermione had been involved with Krum on a serious, romantic level, then it would have been all over the school. Harry and Ron would have noticed something themselves as well as hearing about it from other people. Rita wouldn't have passed up a juicy tidbit like that for her article. And Hermione wouldn't have laughed at the idea and called it rubbish.

And why would she go to such extremes to hide it? That goes against Hermione's characterization. If she were attracted to Krum and involved with him on that level, then she would have dated him openly. Everyone would have known about it. There was no reason to keep something like that a secret and it is derogatory to Hermione to say that she would do something like that. It wouldn't be fair to Ron or Krum. And I really don't see Krum staying friends with her if she had treated him that badly.

Then we have the lies. If it were true, then why lie about it? Why tell Ron they were just friends and then roll her eyes in exasperation when he was still suspicious? Hermione was completely honest about everything else regarding Krum. She told them about him asking her to the ball and what he said - she told them about Krum confessing his feelings. Ron asked and she told the truth. Why lie about their relationship? That is also derogatory to Hermione's character.

There simply is too much inconsistency for it to be true. Of all the people Jo could have picked for this revelation, choosing Ginny makes it even less likely to be true because Jo then goes on to emphasize on page that Ginny and Hermione are not very close. She further demonstrated that Ginny likes to gossip and makes assumptions about others - particularly about romance. She directly shows that Ginny is making an assumption about Harry. Harry didn't even talk about kissing Cho in detail with Ron and Hermione. There is no way that Ginny knew anything about that. She's making an assumption.

The evidence is clear. Ginny is making an assumption based on the gossip that surrounded Hermione and Krum in GOF. Jo didn't have any other choice in the matter because she wrote herself into a corner regarding Hermione and Krum. Anything else creates a plot hole, raises too many questions, and is derogatory to both Hermione and Ginny's characters. Nothing else works.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

I learned it in college. My literature professor would cringe at some of the arguments being presented here.

However, we're not discussing your literature professor's opinions/classes, we're discussing the HP books as JKR has written them, and what questions she has answered about them.

[DumblysArmy]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

It's just a little discussion about relationships (friendly & otherwise) between characters in the book. (By the way, if you really want to read something odd, there's a thread somewhere about the length of Harry's hair in OoP, and what length it should be, etc.......now that's odd, in my opinion.)

As there's very little revealed on page about Hermione's relationship with Krum until Ginny has an angry argument with Ron in HBP, the question came up here about whether Hermione kissed Krum. But as JKR has said in interview that Hermione's seen some action, many of us think so, but not everyone agrees.

Oh, I see. Well I'll throw in my two cents on the matter if it'll help any.

HBP, Felix Felicis Harry's snogged Cho Chang!' shouted Ginny, who sounded close to tears now. 'And Hermione snogged Viktor Krum, it's only you who acts like it's something disgusting, Ron, and that's because you've got about as much experience as a twelve-year-old!'

Here it is shown on page that Hermione kissed Krum. Nothing has ever been shown on page that Ginny was incorrect. If Ginny was incorrect JKR would have shown so on page, she doesn't make mistakes like that in her writing.

HBP, Felix Felicis D'you think Hermione did snog Krum? snip The honest answer was 'yes'

Again it is shown on page that Hermione kissed Krum. If Harry was incorrect JKR would have shown so on page, but she never did.

HBP, The Unbreakable Vow 'She can't complain,' he told Harry. 'She snogged Krum.

I hate to sound redundant but again it is shown on page that Hermione kissed Krum and again JKR never shows on page that this is false.

So in HBP there are three different characters all saying that Hermione kissed Krum and not once are any of their statements shown to be false on page. In DH maybe they will be, but until that time we must go by what's shown on page and that is that Hermione kissed Krum.

[kingwidgit]

Originally Posted by DumblysArmy

it is shown on page that Hermione kissed Krum

Actually, we have the phrases 'she snogged him' but we do not get to visually witness the act in canon, as we do Harry and Ginny's kiss. Of course, we didn't witness Krum inviting Hermy-own-ninny to the dance, either. There are things that occur with main/minor characters that we do not visually see, but hear of 'after the fact' in canon:

• Ginny killing Hagrid's roosters, writing on the wall, sending the singing Valentine, setting the Basilisk loose, shredding Harry's possessions in an attempt to regain the diary, being taken into the Chamber...
• Hermione telling McGonagall about the Firebolt.
• Hermione being lonely and visiting Hagrid because Ron and Harry aren't talking to her.
• Fred & George sneaking out of school, to and from Hogsmeade.
• Dumbledore's meetings with the Ministers of Magic.
• The disappearance of Fortescue and Ollivander.
• Hagrid's trip to the giants.
• Cho, Gabrielle, Ron, and Hermione being bewitched and tied to a stone statue under the lake.
• Rosmerta being placed under the Imperius and sending messages back and forth to Malfoy via enchanted coin.
• The Death Eaters entering the castle.

The reason for this is because Harry wasn't there to "see" any of it and we fans see things from Harry's POV. Most of the time when we hear "after the fact" it's truthful and correct.

Sometimes things not seen from Harry's POV but heard "after the fact" aren't true, though normally they are revealed to be untrue by the ending of the book:

• Snape was after the Philopher's Stone. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in PS/SS]
• Sirius was the Secret Keeper and betrayed the Potters. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in POA]
• Crookshanks killed Scabbers. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in POA]
• Barty Crouch died in prison. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in GoF]
• Kreacher hiding in the attic. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in OotP]
• Lockhart and all of his wondrous exploits. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in CoS]
• Sirius being held and tortured in the DoM. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in OotP]

The 'after the fact' hearing of "Hermione snogged Krum" was not shown 'on page' to be untrue in HBP.

In separate interviews by JK:

"Rowling certainly isn't afraid of sex, as Order of the Phoenix--which had Harry making out with the beautiful, grieving Cho Chang--ably demonstrated. Harry and his friends are now 16, and it would just be weird if Harry didn't have more on his mind than wands and snitches. "Because of the demands of the adventure that Harry is following, he has had less sexual experience than boys of his age might have had," Rowling allows. "But I really wanted my heroes to grow up. Ron's hormones get fuller play in book six." Cue the throaty alto laughter. "Basically it dawns on Ron that Hermione's had some action, Harry's had some action and he's never got close!" '

"But Ron - I had a lot of fun with that in this book. I really enjoyed writing the Ron/Lavender business, and the reason that was enjoyable was Ron up to this point has been quite immature compared to the other two, and he kind of needed to make himself worthy of Hermione. Now, that didn't mean necessarily physical experience, but he had to grow up emotionally and now he's taken a big step up."

[DumblysArmy]

Originally Posted by kingwidgit

Actually, we have the phrases 'she snogged him' but we do not get to visually witness the act in canon, as we do Harry and Ginny's kiss. Of course, we didn't witness Krum inviting Hermy-own-ninny to the dance, either. There are things that occur with main/minor characters that we do not visually see, but hear of 'after the fact' in canon:

• Ginny killing Hagrid's roosters, writing on the wall, sending the singing Valentine, setting the Basilisk loose, shredding Harry's possessions in an attempt to regain the diary, being taken into the Chamber...
• Hermione telling McGonagall about the Firebolt.
• Hermione being lonely and visiting Hagrid because Ron and Harry aren't talking to her.
• Fred & George sneaking out of school, to and from Hogsmeade.
• Dumbledore's meetings with the Ministers of Magic.
• The disappearance of Fortescue and Ollivander.
• Hagrid's trip to the giants.
• Cho, Gabrielle, Ron, and Hermione being bewitched and tied to a stone statue under the lake.
• Rosmerta being placed under the Imperius and sending messages back and forth to Malfoy via enchanted coin.
• The Death Eaters entering the castle.

The reason for this is because Harry wasn't there to "see" any of it and we fans see things from Harry's POV. Most of the time when we hear "after the fact" it's truthful and correct.

Sometimes things not seen from Harry's POV but heard "after the fact" aren't true, though normally they are revealed to be untrue by the ending of the book:

• Snape was after the Philopher's Stone. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in PS/SS]
• Sirius was the Secret Keeper and betrayed the Potters. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in POA]
• Crookshanks killed Scabbers. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in POA]
• Barty Crouch died in prison. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in GoF]
• Kreacher hiding in the attic. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in OotP]
• Lockhart and all of his wondrous exploits. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in CoS]
• Sirius being held and tortured in the DoM. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in OotP]

The 'after the fact' hearing of "Hermione snogged Krum" was not shown 'on page' to be untrue in HBP.

In separate interviews by JK:

Kissing is usually done in private so it makes sense that we don't visually see it. It's been introduced as truth and has reappeared multiple times as truth. So like I said unless it's proven untrue in DH there is no reason to believe otherwise and it should be accepted as it's been introduced a truth.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by kingwidgit

Actually, we have the phrases 'she snogged him' but we do not get to visually witness the act in canon, as we do Harry and Ginny's kiss. Of course, we didn't witness Krum inviting Hermy-own-ninny to the dance, either. There are things that occur with main/minor characters that we do not visually see, but hear of 'after the fact' in canon:

• Ginny killing Hagrid's roosters, writing on the wall, sending the singing Valentine, setting the Basilisk loose, shredding Harry's possessions in an attempt to regain the diary, being taken into the Chamber...
• Hermione telling McGonagall about the Firebolt.
• Hermione being lonely and visiting Hagrid because Ron and Harry aren't talking to her.
• Fred & George sneaking out of school, to and from Hogsmeade.
• Dumbledore's meetings with the Ministers of Magic.
• The disappearance of Fortescue and Ollivander.
• Hagrid's trip to the giants.
• Cho, Gabrielle, Ron, and Hermione being bewitched and tied to a stone statue under the lake.
• Rosmerta being placed under the Imperius and sending messages back and forth to Malfoy via enchanted coin.
• The Death Eaters entering the castle.

The reason for this is because Harry wasn't there to "see" any of it and we fans see things from Harry's POV. Most of the time when we hear "after the fact" it's truthful and correct.

And all of those things are confirmed on page by the people involved. Ginny admitted to all of the things she had done while possessed. Hermione confessed that she had told McGonagall about the Firebolt - and the opportunity for her to do that was directly shown on page. Hagrid reveals that Hermione came to see him and what she said and the wording is specific there - he wasn't just stating she was upset without giving the reasons why he thought that. Fred and George personally tell Harry how they've used the map - and we are also shown on page when they supply food, etc... for the celebration. Dumbledore mentions meeting with Fudge, etc... himself. Fortescue and Ollivander's disappearances are news and nobody knows exactly what happened to them - or is directly stating anything of the sort. Hagrid's trip to the giants is recounted by Hagrid. The hostages being taken was alluded to on page when Ron and Hermione were summoned to McGonagall's office - rather obvious what was going on there. Draco confessed to putting Rosmerta under the Imperius Curse and using the enchanted coins - and so on. Harry saw the Death Eaters in the castle for himself and Ron personally witnessed them enter - and Draco confessed to how he had accomplished it.

That is the significant difference in these events. In all of those examples, the event was confirmed by the person involved. Draco is the one who performed the curse - Draco can reveal it. Hermione was the one who went to McGonagall so she can reveal that. In this case, we never get Hermione's side of the story. She never finds out about what Ginny said and never gets the opportunity to defend herself.

That is very significant. Ginny is not Hermione and cannot speak for Hermione without corroborating evidence on page. That is not the same as Hagrid telling them that Hermione came to him and was upset. Ginny makes a blanket statement with nothing to show how she would know such a thing and she assumes that Harry and Ron already know about it.

Something on page in GOF that at least alludes to the opportunity is an absolute requirement because Ginny's statement cannot stand alone. Harry's assumption cannot stand alone either because he never saw anything to lead him to that conclusion. He is making an assumption based on another assumption - that Hermione was interested in Krum because he was older and famous.

Hermione could confirm it herself, but that still leaves the plot hole because there is no opportunity presented in GOF for her to have been making out with Krum. Even Ginny's activities in COS were alluded to on page. It was noted that she was hanging around Hagrid's, etc... So that becomes a complicated issue because, in order for neither Harry or Ron to have seen anything at all, then Hermione would have to have lied to them at some point. She spends too much time with them for them not to notice anything.

Sometimes things not seen from Harry's POV but heard "after the fact" aren't true, though normally they are revealed to be untrue by the ending of the book:

• Snape was after the Philopher's Stone. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in PS/SS]
• Sirius was the Secret Keeper and betrayed the Potters. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in POA]
• Crookshanks killed Scabbers. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in POA]
• Barty Crouch died in prison. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in GoF]
• Kreacher hiding in the attic. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in OotP]
• Lockhart and all of his wondrous exploits. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in CoS]
• Sirius being held and tortured in the DoM. [Introduced as truth/proven untrue in OotP]

The 'after the fact' hearing of "Hermione snogged Krum" was not shown 'on page' to be untrue in HBP.

The same can be said about Snape's loyalties - carrying over through each book with no definite resolution. The same can be said about the relationships in general - clues given to show that Ron and Hermione will get together - but they have not done so yet. Clues towards Harry and Ginny were given throughout, but not resolved until HBP. The prophecy was alluded to in POA and GOF, but not revealed until OOTP.

Not everything is dealt with in a single book. A lot of issues have carried over. This issue in particular has carried over three books with Ron being suspicious in GOF and OOTP and Ginny making an assumption in HBP. Ginny's statement was not a revelation - it's just another piece of the puzzle. We don't know the final resolution yet because we haven't heard anything from Hermione.

In separate interviews by JK:

Both of those are discussing Ron and what he thinks - not what actually happened. Jo has never addressed the issue directly. In keeping her answers through Ron's point of view - what he thinks and what he would like to know - she raises doubt.

It's also interesting that she specifically refers to wanting Harry and Ron to kiss other girls but makes no mention of Hermione at all. Hermione is conspicuously absent from that conversation - and Jo is quick to point out that she was not trying to show physical experience, but emotional development. From that, we know that someone doesn't have any kind of physical experience and, since Hermione was the only one not shown, we know that she is the one who doesn't have any experience. This is also evident in her actions in HBP - particularly with McLaggen. Her lack of experience really stands out there.

[kingwidgit]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Jo has never addressed the issue directly. In keeping her answers through Ron's point of view - what he thinks and what he would like to know - she raises doubt.

I disagree. JK doesn't say "it dawns on Ron that Hermione may have had some action"; she says "it dawns on Ron that Hermione has had some action".

The simple fact of the matter is, in regards to ships, specifically Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione, she's been extremely cagey and/or silent on the subject. We had Chocolate confirmed on page, but I don't see JK doing anything to confirm the kiss to Krum on/off page until Heron is established.

The kiss could have occurred at any time that Harry wasn't there to "see" it: before the ball, after the ball, when Krum invited Hermione to a 'word and led her out of sight' before Durmstrang left Hogwarts.

[seeker]

The problem with using examples like Snape's loyalties to suggest that something can be introduced as true in one book and contradicted in the next is that that actually matters to the plot of the book. Snape's identity as a character is bound up in the ambiguity surrounding his loyalties: it is an issue that has to be resolved in one way or the other. The same can't be said for Hermione kissing Krum. While it had some impact on a subplot in HBP, by the end of the book, it is pretty clear that Ron and Hermione have gotten over their differences and are moving toward a relationship, if they aren't in one already. There is no need for the two to have a conversation about whether or not Hermione and Krum snogged, because Ron has moved past it. Unlike Snape's loyalties, it is no longer an issue, and hence we have no reason to doubt Ginny's assertion and the author's implied corraboration of that assertion.

By the way, if Harry's and Ron's closeness to Hermione would have prevented her from kissing Krum without their knowledge, than why would they believe Ginny at all? Considering that the boys who apparently spend all of their time with her find it credible that she kissed Krum without their knowledge, I don't see where you find the basis to question it. This is particularly true given that Krum met Hermione and asked her to the Ball without Harry or Ron knowing, and that he apparently spent enough time with her to be able to say, five months after the ball that she speaks about Harry "often."

Again, I want to point out that assuming that you are right about the extent of Hermione and Krum's relationship, Krum's behavior is inexiplicable. If they haven't spent any time together between December 25 and February 24, why is Hermione the thing that he'll miss most? And if Hermione is unequivocally not interested in him, why does he think she might go to Bulgaria with him? And why are they stil in correspondence in OOtP?

My reading of Hermione's behavior during the book is that she herself is somewhat confused. On the one hand, she isn't particularly interested in Krum, and is becoming increasingly aware of her feelings for Ron. She also doesn't want to be one of these foolish girls hanging on his every word. However, as someone whose two male best friends, one of whom she is interested in, see her as "one of the boys" to the point where they don't immediately realize that she could be a potential Yule Ball date, it is flattering when Krum, who so many girls desire, singles her out. If Krum were an idiot or a jerk, that wouldn't have mattered. But Krum in GoF comes off as a basically decent guy who has at least enough substance and intelligence to be chosen as a Triwizard Champion. Her feelings for him are never serious, but she does see him in a romantic light. I mean, very few high school (or even college) girls choose their boyfriends or dates based on whether or not they have a future together. It is quite acceptable to date someone just because he's a nice guy that you are somewhat attracted to and can see spending an enjoyable few months with. This only becomes problematic once it becomes clear that one partner wants more.

Canon supports this reading. Hermione's first reaction to seeing the picture of Krum is to dismiss him as "grumpy" looking. Yet, after the match, she is leaning over the top box to get a look at him, saying that "He was very brave." To me, this comment is foreshadowing of their later pairing - and it is Hermione showing interest in Krum, rather than the other way around. When Krum arrives at Hogwarts, Hermione shows an immoderate amount of annoyance at the way everyone fawns over Krum: there are several occasions on which she maintains that he is "only a Quidditch player" and that she can't believe that all the girls are being so silly. You can choose to interpret this purely as irritation over the foolishness of others, but it seems to me that her obvious anxiety to show how above that she is may be intended to conceal, even to herself, her own mild attraction to him. She is absurdly secretive about going to the ball with him - kind of strange is she doesn't care about him at all. Compare that to Ginny, who is clearly not interested in Neville and therefore has no problem telling her brother and her crush who she is going to *** ball with. She spends a lot of time getting ready for the Ball, although she doesn't normally have much concern for her appearance. If it were all so that Ron could see her in that light, she could just make more of an effort on a daily basis. Indeed, if the fact that she and the boys are so close has any bearing on this situation, it is that her continued reticence to talk about him to them suggests that there is someting more than pure friendship going on.

Instead, she seems to confide in Ginny. While we don't know how much she told her, it is clear that Ginny knows who Hermione is going to the Ball with. When Ron thinks Hermione is lying, Ginny is the one who says that she isn't. Then, in OOtP, Hermione knows about Ginny's relationship with Michael while Harry and Ron don't. We get further confirmation that the two girls discuss relationship issues at the end of HBP, when Ginny tells Harry that Hermione suggested to her that she act more natural around him. Given these incidents, Ginny's knowledge of Hermione and Krum's kiss fits with other indications that JKR has given us about Ginny and Hermione's friendship.

There is no real reason to doubt Ginny's assertion. Harry, who we can expect to be fairly impartial on the issue, believes her. JKR makes statements that, if not confirmations, at least suggest a romantic linkage. Hermione's behavior in GoF is at least ambiguous as to how she felt about him, and Krum's behavior only makes sense if they had some contact beyond the Yule Ball. They are two teenagers who went to the equivelent of the prom together. Ron and Hermione are firmly on the road to a relationship, so there is no textual reason to contradict Ginny's words. The clearest explanation is that the two did indeed kiss.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by kingwidgit

I disagree. JK doesn't say "it dawns on Ron that Hermione may have had some action"; she says "it dawns on Ron that Hermione has had some action".

Then why not say "Hermione had some action" instead of "It dawns on Ron"? All that really says is that Ron thinks something happened - not that it actually did.

That's the second suspicious thing I noticed about this - the first being that Ginny's statement comes completely out of the blue with nothing to support it and nothing to confirm it. Not once has Jo ever said that Hermione kissed Krum - that she dated him - or anything. It's always from Ron's point of view - Ron would like to know or it dawns on Ron. That tells us nothing. A typically vague response from Jo.

The simple fact of the matter is, in regards to ships, specifically Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione, she's been extremely cagey and/or silent on the subject. We had Chocolate confirmed on page, but I don't see JK doing anything to confirm the kiss to Krum on/off page until Heron is established.

Prior to HBP, that was true. She was vague and very cagey about it. After HBP, she was completely open and very willing to discuss it - and had a lot of fun doing so. She discussed Harry and Ron's previous relationships and what she was trying to accomplish. She even discussed the fact that Ginny needed to go on a journey before getting with Harry. Absolutely nothing about Hermione. Hermione is not even mentioned apart from confirmation that Ron and Hermione will be a couple.

Simply put, there is no reason for a previous relationship for Hermione not to be shown or for it to be hidden. Everyone else's relationships were shown on page and discussed by Jo. The only reason for nothing to be shown for Hermione and for Jo not to discuss Hermione is if nothing happened.

The kiss could have occurred at any time that Harry wasn't there to "see" it: before the ball, after the ball, when Krum invited Hermione to a 'word and led her out of sight' before Durmstrang left Hogwarts.

That is very bad writing - amateurish would be the best way to describe it. Jo has always been meticulous about at least giving some on page indication as to what is going on - even with minor issues such as shipping.

I think I may be getting misunderstood here. I'm not saying that the kissing itself would have to be shown on page. What I'm saying is that there must be something on page to at least indicate it. Ron questioning why Hermione was spending so much extra time in the library - or just wondering where she was at some point. Hermione showing up late and not wanting to say why or being vague about it. Even Harry spotting Hermione with Viktor holding hands or cuddling - or some other "couple" behavior - would suffice.

We were given indication on page that Krum was interested in Hermione and that he asked her to the ball - the opportunity was indicated on page by showing Krum in the library every time they went in there. None of that came out of the blue. Nor did Hermione's accepting his invitation or the reason why she accepted his invitation. And all of that was confirmed by Hermione. Hermione was always honest when asked about Krum.

So why would she hide it - particularly when she would have had to go to such great extremes in order to do so? That makes no sense whatsoever. If she was attracted to Krum and was making out with him, then why not date him openly? Why lie to Ron's face when he said that Krum wanted to be more than friends? Why get exasperated with Ron when he didn't believe that they were just friends?

It just doesn't work and I have more faith in Jo's writing ability than to think she would just toss something in with no thought to consistency whatsoever. Everything else has had sufficient information given on page to at least give an indication of it. Having Ginny state that out of the blue with no on page support in GOF and no confirmation from Hermione at all is suspicious and very poor writing. It raises too many questions and is completely inconsistent with what was shown. Given that Jo has gone on record to say that she loathes that type of writing, I don't see her doing that.

[Yoana]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Krum didn't actually have feelings for Hermione - although he thought he did. It was the fact that she wasn't attracted to him that peaked his interest. He had all those girls fawning all over him - following him around - he could have any one of them at the snap of a finger. But he couldn't have Hermione and that made him want her all the more.

There were plenty other girls not following Viktor around - among them Cho, Fleur, Ginny. But he chose Hermione. So there was something more than lack of interest.

Saying he didn't have feelings for her is contradictory to what is written in the book. He says he has never felt the same about any other girl. He invites her to Bulgaria. The Triwizard people in charge see her as the thing he would miss most.

[tuer_lisse]

I dont know how there can be any ambiguity about this!? Didnt it state in Half Blood Prince that Hermione kissed Victor Krum?

[Yoana]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Then why not say "Hermione had some action" instead of "It dawns on Ron"? All that really says is that Ron thinks something happened - not that it actually did.

Because she explains Ron's reason to date Lavender. Therefore he needs to be included in the sentence. But she says "dawns on", which means "realizes". She could have said "he thinks", "he is told", "he is led to believe", but she says it the simplest way - Ron realizes.

We were given indication on page that Krum was interested in Hermione and that he asked her to the ball - the opportunity was indicated on page by showing Krum in the library every time they went in there. None of that came out of the blue. Nor did Hermione's accepting his invitation or the reason why she accepted his invitation. And all of that was confirmed by Hermione. Hermione was always honest when asked about Krum.

Yes - when asked. No one ever asks her if she dated him in year 4 or if she kissed him. And it seems to me that she wouldn't have told them even about the invitation to Bulgaria, had it not been in the paper - why did they have to learn it from there? Why didn't she confide in them earlier?

[kingwidgit]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

What I'm saying is that there must be something on page to at least indicate it.

There is, but some do not accept it as canon. Neither Hermione or Krum have to confirm "Hermione snogged Krum" for it to be true. It was stated in canon, therefore it is on page as canon. There's nothing on or off page to refute it.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

That is very bad writing - amateurish would be the best way to describe it.

Like how Harry got the Marauder's Map back from Moody? That has never been confirmed in the book. If it weren't for the fact that someone had specifically asked JK how that came about I'm willing to bet we'd still be in the dark about it.

[Balbulmaya]

I'm not really sure...

I think Ginny was really angry at the momment she said that hermiony "snogged" Krum, but then again, ginny is like, the closest girl friend that Hermiony has, so Hermiony probably shares some secrets with her....right?

[SSJ_Jup81]

Originally Posted by kingwidgit

There is, but some do not accept it as canon. Neither Hermione or Krum have to confirm "Hermione snogged Krum" for it to be true. It was stated in canon, therefore it is on page as canon. There's nothing on or off page to refute it.

It's not technically "canon" until it's mentioned by the persons involved when it comes to that type of stuff, seemingly. It's like how Hermione mentioned to the boys that Ginny was dating Michael. Yes, it was mentioned in canon, but, it wasn't confirmed or shown to be true by Hermione; that was done so by Ginny later on, onpage. We have a one-sided situation here. Ginny made a confirmation and it still hasn't been shown or confirmed by any of the people involved.

Like how Harry got the Marauder's Map back from Moody? That has never been confirmed in the book. If it weren't for the fact that someone had specifically asked JK how that came about I'm willing to bet we'd still be in the dark about it.

Yeah, but JKR admitted to its being a mistake on her part and explained it. So, what we have here (in ref to this topic), is that JKR forgot to include clues in GoF to corroborate Ginny's revelation, like the Marauder's map thing, or either Ginny's assuming or either she's lying or either she's exaggerating.

[snuka]

We can't say for sure.

Given what Hermione said when asked about her "dating" Krum, I'd say no, it didn't happen. They're just friends. Maybe a gentlemanly peck on the cheek/kiss of the hand, but nothing near to the making out like Ginny is suggesting.

[amafaiope]

Ah.. this is the cost of having the stories narrarated by Harry. He wasn't with Viktor and Hermione much, so we can't really know for sure. I just have a little feeling that Hermione did have her first kiss with Viktor, if only to have Hermione and Ron on even-footing. I mean, Ron's "relationship" with Lavender seemed to go further than I'd imagine Hermione/Viktor went, but both Hermione and Ron still had their first kisses. Perhaps that's just my bias though, because I wouldn't want Ron to be Hermione's first kiss.

[sparkly]

Originally Posted by SSJ_Jup81

It's not technically "canon" until it's mentioned by the persons involved when it comes to that type of stuff, seemingly. It's like how Hermione mentioned to the boys that Ginny was dating Michael. Yes, it was mentioned in canon, but, it wasn't confirmed or shown to be true by Hermione; that was done so by Ginny later on, onpage. We have a one-sided situation here. Ginny made a confirmation and it still hasn't been shown or confirmed by any of the people involved.Yeah, but JKR admitted to its being a mistake on her part and explained it. So, what we have here (in ref to this topic), is that JKR forgot to include clues in GoF to corroborate Ginny's revelation, like the Marauder's map thing, or either Ginny's assuming or either she's lying or either she's exaggerating.

Ginny never said she was dating Michael - all she did was tell him about the DA meeting.

I disagree that canon evidence needs to be confirmed by the principals involved - if so, then Ginny and Dean are still dating since neither of them confirmed Hermione's declaration that they had broken up.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

I think I may be getting misunderstood here. I'm not saying that the kissing itself would have to be shown on page. What I'm saying is that there must be something on page to at least indicate it.

There is, we have JKR's description of Hermione & Krum at the ball, Hermione's confirmation that Rita's article was true about her & Krum's conversation, leading up to HBP, where Ginny tells Ron that Hermione & Krum had snogged. And indirectly, we have indication on page through Ron's seemingly irrationally jealous reactions -- if Hermione did not seem interested in Krum as well, I don't think Ron would have been so upset.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Krum didn't actually have feelings for Hermione - although he thought he did.

Sorry, but that directly contradicts what is written in GoF.

Originally Posted by Yoana

There were plenty other girls not following Viktor around - among them Cho, Fleur, Ginny. But he chose Hermione. So there was something more than lack of interest.

Saying he didn't have feelings for her is contradictory to what is written in the book. He says he has never felt the same about any other girl. He invites her to Bulgaria. The Triwizard people in charge see her as the thing he would miss most.

Agreed. Also, the canon descriptions of those girls following Krum seemed very small compared to the entire school and all the girls from the visiting schools. Hermione describes them as a "fan club" while in the library with Harry, and we are told of a "gang of girls" tip-toeing past them into the library -- there cannot have been that many of them or Madam Pince would have thrown them out.

[snuka]

It seems all 3 need one failed "relationship" before the real thing.

Harry-Cho before Harry-Ginny
Ron-Lavender before Ron-Hermione
and before Hermione-Ron there was IMO Hermione-McLaggen

I think in the books it seemed Krum always liked Hermione more than the other way around. Also, Hermione is quite the player in the romantic field if she is a) seeing Krum, b) interested in Ron and c) still went out with McLaggen. I think nothing in the cannon suggests she has any more romantic experience than Harry (or Ron by the end of HBP).