Did Hermione kiss Viktor Krum? v4

[Sandrinha]

Originally Posted by HagathaChristie

I notice this is version 4 of this thread and I've never ventured in before so can't imagine what all there is to talk about but it seemed obvious that Viktor was Hermione's superficial teen fling which would include kissing whether Harry witnessed it and reported it to us directly or not.

For the first time Hr has a guy oogling her not the Lavenders and what girl at that age would not like that attention.

4 threads . Damn these love issues sure do make up for some very long threads .

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Then why not say "Hermione had some action" instead of "It dawns on Ron"? All that really says is that Ron thinks something happened - not that it actually did.

Well, Jo is answering a question about Ron's behaviour in HBP, and it would make sense to include Ron in the answer. If she'd wanted to suggest that Ron was wrong, she could have said 'Ron thinks', or 'Ron assumed'. But, Jo says "It dawns on Ron", suggesting that Ron has 'realized' something that he hadn't thought about before. Ron did understand that Hermione was a girl, and that she'd seen Krum for a while, but he hadn't realized the implications, what they could've done, until Ginny told him not-so-subtly. Wishful thinking, as it were.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

That's the second suspicious thing I noticed about this - the first being that Ginny's statement comes completely out of the blue with nothing to support it and nothing to confirm it.

Considering that the story is from Harry's viewpoint, and because he concludes that she did kiss him, I'd say that it was confirmation enough. There's also the fact that neither of them know if Hermione accepted Krum's offer to visit him or not.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

She discussed Harry and Ron's previous relationships and what she was trying to accomplish. She even discussed the fact that Ginny needed to go on a journey before getting with Harry. Absolutely nothing about Hermione. Hermione is not even mentioned apart from confirmation that Ron and Hermione will be a couple.

She did say that she wanted all of her heroes to be well-rounded, and that she didn't want their first kiss to be with the one they would end up with. Unless Hermione's first kiss was with Mclaggen, it was with Krum.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Simply put, there is no reason for a previous relationship for Hermione not to be shown or for it to be hidden. Everyone else's relationships were shown on page and discussed by Jo. The only reason for nothing to be shown for Hermione and for Jo not to discuss Hermione is if nothing happened.

If Harry had seen Hermione kissing Krum, he'd have had to tell Ron sometime before HBP, and then, there wouldn't have been a row in HBP about it. Thus, it was important that the details of Hermione and Krum's relationship be unknown to the boys.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

That is very bad writing - amateurish would be the best way to describe it. Jo has always been meticulous about at least giving some on page indication as to what is going on - even with minor issues such as shipping.

Since the story is from Harry's perspective, there are some limitations to that sort of thing. In GoF, Harry is far more interested in what Maxime and Hagrid are saying than what is going on in the bushes. Harry wasn't interested in Hermione's love-life then. He is rather selfish in such things, especially since he has more than enough on his plate as it is.

The same goes for the 'couple' behaviour. For one, Harry isn't even noticing what Hermione gets up to with Krum, and for another, Hermione would take care to avoid such situations herself, because she wouldn't want to have to offer explanations. Not because she was ashamed or anything, but because she isn't comfortable discussing it with them. Hermione in GoF is still very insecure about herself. Telling her friends about what he's like as a person is very different from telling the intimate details.

Until the ball, Hermione thought that Ron would be excited at the prospect of her dating his Quidditch idol. I get the idea that she intended for it to be a pleasant surprise for him. However, at the Ball, she's shocked by his reaction, and decides to not antagonize him any further, and ruin their friendship with another row, by 'flaunting' her relationship with Krum, and dating him openly. They've both come to some sort of understanding where they do not talk about it at all if possible.

It might also be that the relationship stuff is still new for Hermione, and she's a bit shy about it all. We didn't see Ginny and Micheal together, and Ron and Harry didn't even notice that they were dating until Hermione told him. Ginny didn't tell Ron because she knew he would take it badly, not because she was ashamed of Michael. It's the same thing with Krum and Hermione.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

It raises too many questions and is completely inconsistent with what was shown. Given that Jo has gone on record to say that she loathes that type of writing, I don't see her doing that.

IMHO, it would be even more inconsistent if it turns out that Ginny was just spreading rumours. Ginny isn't the sort to spread baseless rumours. Harry hates that sort of thing, and I don't see him falling for her if she were a horrible gossip, who spreads baseless and harmful rumours about friends. Harry doesn't respect people like that, and I can't see a girl like that being Harry's perfect girl.

[CelestLBeing]

There are many things that JKR doesn't go into detail over simply because they aren't important enough to waste space in a book. Like how Harry got the map back from Remus. But we know he did because it was casually mentioned later. Just as Hermione and Viktor snogging. We know they did because it was mentioned later. I fail to see why some on this thread refuse to see that there is canon saying they did snog. What is the big deal. Hermione is not a saint, she is a normal red blooded teenage girl. Of course she and Viktor snogged. It doesn't mean she decided she was madly in love with him. It means she is normal.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by CelestLBeing

There are many things that JKR doesn't go into detail over simply because they aren't important enough to waste space in a book. Like how Harry got the map back from Remus. But we know he did because it was casually mentioned later. Just as Hermione and Viktor snogging. We know they did because it was mentioned later. I fail to see why some on this thread refuse to see that there is canon saying they did snog. What is the big deal. Hermione is not a saint, she is a normal red blooded teenage girl. Of course she and Viktor snogged. It doesn't mean she decided she was madly in love with him. It means she is normal.

Jo publicly admitted that she made a mistake regarding the map. She said that she should have included something on page to show how Harry got it back and neglecting to do so caused confusion amongst the readers. She's not going to make the same mistake twice. Jo is very meticulous with little details - even going so far as to give reference on page to the fact that the students bathe and use the bathroom. Most authors don't pay that much attention to detail, but Jo does because she hates the kind of writing that creates plot holes and raises unanswered questions.

It's a big deal because it turns Hermione into a deceptive, manipulative person who used Krum, went to great lengths to hide that fact, and deliberately lied about it. It creates a plot hole because there is nothing in GOF to support it - no motive or opportunity for Hermione to have been making out.

Having a prior relationship - even making out - would not be a big deal. But the lengths that Hermione would have to have gone to to hide something like that - as well as deliberately lying to Ron about it make it a big deal. Not to mention what a terrible person that would make Ginny - to toss off such a huge secret of Hermione's without giving any consideration to Hermione's feelings or showing any remorse for it at all.

It is not canon. Canon only shows that Ginny thinks it is true. There is no canon at all that even remotely supports Ginny's statement. Hermione was never romantically attracted to Krum. She never exhibited any behavior to suggest that she was making out with anyone. Harry never saw anything to support the conclusion. There are no unexplained absences in GOF - there are no instances where Hermione showed up late and/or disheveled - or flustered when asked where she'd been. Harry never saw her with Krum behaving as a couple. Nothing.

Ginny is not Hermione and cannot speak for Hermione without corroborating evidence on page. That is a fact. Her statement can only be considered an assumption until something occurs on page to prove that it is true - and that can only come from Hermione. Nobody else can speak for Hermione's actions off page but Hermione - and even then Jo would have to jump through hoops to explain why there is no evidence in GOF to support it because it would still create a plot hole in that regard.

[HagathaChristie]

Originally Posted by CelestLBeing

There are many things that JKR doesn't go into detail over simply because they aren't important enough to waste space in a book. Like how Harry got the map back from Remus. But we know he did because it was casually mentioned later. Just as Hermione and Viktor snogging. We know they did because it was mentioned later. I fail to see why some on this thread refuse to see that there is canon saying they did snog. What is the big deal. Hermione is not a saint, she is a normal red blooded teenage girl. Of course she and Viktor snogged. It doesn't mean she decided she was madly in love with him. It means she is normal.

I agree. And considering JKR's comment that she didn't want the boys to never kiss anyone other than their ultimate partner, I would be quite perturbed if we were to learn that Hermione had not had her own snogging experience with Krum. It would seem rather sexist, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Jo publicly admitted that she made a mistake regarding the map.

Do you have her quote on that? I searched at accio-quote, but didn't find it. Thanks.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by HagathaChristie

I agree. And considering JKR's comment that she didn't want the boys to never kiss anyone other than their ultimate partner, I would be quite perturbed if we were to learn that Hermione had not had her own snogging experience with Krum. It would seem rather sexist, in my opinion.

I think it's rather sweet myself. I think it would be better to have your first kiss with someone you love as opposed to some random boy you aren't even attracted to. But that's just me.

It would have been nice if Jo had written in a prior relationship for Hermione - with Krum or anyone - but she chose not to do that. Hermione just wasn't interested in Krum romantically. I kept hoping Hermione would date someone - cause I could see that Jo was taking that route with Harry and Ron. But she never did. I'm not all that fussed about it though. The character development was served regardless. Hermione learned that guys could find her attractive even if she didn't return Krum's feelings. And that was what was important really.

Do you have her quote on that? I searched at accio-quote, but didn't find it. Thanks.

World Book Day Chat HPFreak7: How did Harry get the Marauder's Map back, when Crouch Jr. had it last? JK Rowling replies -> Loads of people have asked me this, I knew I should have shown Harry nipping into Moody's empty office and getting it back, but I assumed you'd all know that's what he did. Sorry!

She also addressed it on her website. Both times she is apologetic for it and, on her websites, considers adding a line about that somewhere to clear it up. I don't think she actually did that, but it was something that caused confusion that she said she should have included on page.

I really don't see her making the same mistake twice - particularly not with an issue that is such a major part of the Ron/Hermione subplot. She pays too much attention to detail for that.

[CelestLBeing]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

It's a big deal because it turns Hermione into a deceptive, manipulative person who used Krum, went to great lengths to hide that fact, and deliberately lied about it.

My goodness, you do put alot of importance on a little snogging. It actually reminds me of ron. What was it ginny said about it would do him good to do a little snogging.
You might recall that so far Hermione hasn't had a boyfriend up to this point so I am not sure how that makes her deceptive. If Ron ever asks her outright I am sure she will tell him truthfully that she and Viktor snogged. She hasn't lied to anyone. And she has munipulated no one.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

It creates a plot hole because there is nothing in GOF to support it - no motive or opportunity for Hermione to have been making out. Having a prior relationship - even making out - would not be a big deal. But the lengths that Hermione would have to have gone to to hide something like that - as well as deliberately lying to Ron about it make it a big deal. Not to mention what a terrible person that would make Ginny - to toss off such a huge secret of Hermione's without giving any consideration to Hermione's feelings or showing any remorse for it at all. It is not canon. Canon only shows that Ginny thinks it is true. There is no canon at all that even remotely supports Ginny's statement. Hermione was never romantically attracted to Krum. She never exhibited any behavior to suggest that she was making out with anyone. Harry never saw anything to support the conclusion.

Ah, Ah, Ah, Harry personally thought it was true. Of course since it is just in the book I guess we can't call that canon either.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

There are no unexplained absences in GOF

How would we know if there are or not since we don't know what Hermione is doing when she isn't with Harry or Ron. Where were Harry and Ron when Viktor asked her to the dance. But since JKR didn't show him asking her it probably didn't happen, no canon of course.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

- there are no instances where Hermione showed up late and/or disheveled - or flustered when asked where she'd been. Harry never saw her with Krum behaving as a couple. Nothing. Ginny is not Hermione and cannot speak for Hermione without corroborating evidence on page.

Actually I often her teenage girls repeating things friends have told them. Not to be spiteful, just in formative.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by CelestLBeing

My goodness, you do put alot of importance on a little snogging. It actually reminds me of ron. What was it ginny said about it would do him good to do a little snogging.

No, snogging would have been fine. Hiding it and lying about it is not.

You might recall that so far Hermione hasn't had a boyfriend up to this point so I am not sure how that makes her deceptive. If Ron ever asks her outright I am sure she will tell him truthfully that she and Viktor snogged. She hasn't lied to anyone. And she has munipulated no one.

If it were true, then she would have cruelly manipulated Krum because she did not have feelings for him and knew that he had feelings for her. If it were true then she would have been lying through her teeth every time she said they were just friends.

If it were true, then she would have had to go to great lengths to hide it - particularly considering that Rita Skeeter was digging around for dirt on Hermione. That would also go towards being manipulative and lying.

Personally, I think Hermione is a better person than that. She wouldn't stomp all over Krum's feelings in that manner and she would have no reason to lie to Ron if she had dated Krum.

Ah, Ah, Ah, Harry personally thought it was true. Of course since it is just in the book I guess we can't call that canon either.

That only shows that Harry thinks it's true - just as Ginny's statement only shows that she thinks it's true. There is nothing in canon to support the assumption. Ginny and Harry believing it does not mean it actually happened. Ginny was also positive that Molly was trying to set Bill up with Tonks. Harry was also positive that Tonks was in love with Sirius. They believed those things, but they were not true.

How would we know if there are or not since we don't know what Hermione is doing when she isn't with Harry or Ron. Where were Harry and Ron when Viktor asked her to the dance. But since JKR didn't show him asking her it probably didn't happen, no canon of course.

Actually, we do know what Hermione does when she is not with Harry and Ron - she goes to the library and she studies. Hermione revealed that Krum asked her in the library - which is fine because Hermione can reveal her own actions off page. Even so, there was evidence on page to support it. We knew that she had been going to the library and we knew that Krum was hanging around the library a lot.

Hermione is the only person who can reveal what she does off page. Ginny can't do that - neither can Harry for that matter. And we still need something in GOF to support it or there is a plot hole.

Actually I often her teenage girls repeating things friends have told them. Not to be spiteful, just in formative.

Things that they have been told in confidence? Things that person had gone to great lengths to hide - including lying about them? If that is the case, then I would have to say those girls are not close friends and whatever they're revealing would be questionable at best. Gossip is rarely accurate.

[seeker]

Meesha: Let me respond to your contentions seperately, because they are good points and deserve a clear answer:

1. There would have to have been clear textual evidence for a Krum/Hermione snog

The HP series is primarily a coming of age, action adventure story. Love is an important theme in the books, but romantic love is a subplot. Even Harry's romances have not been given a huge amount of page space, and while Hermione is certainly an important character, she is not the main character Furthermore, this is not even her main romance. JKR's mistake with the map is that she left out something that Harry does during the timeframe of the book that the reader could have expected to have been aware of given that the book is from Harry's perspective. When we consider other characters, we shouldn't expect the same level of information.

2.Hermione would have been decieving Krum in snogging him without loving him.
Not necessarily. No one really expects most high school relationships to end in marriage, particularly when one partner is a senior and one a freshman, and even more particularly when the two live in different countries. Snogging may be more than a chaste kiss, but it is not shagging either, and for even a relatively modest 15 year old and 18 year old, a kiss with tongue doesn't necessarily indicate a serious relationship. We also don't know who initiated the kiss. It is possible that Hermione was going for a quick kiss on the lips and the more experienced Krum went slightly further, prompting Hermione to pull away. The Ron factor is to me a non-issue: many women have loved men who weren't interested in them, which is how her attraction to Ron probably appeared to Hermione in this book, and have concluded that they had no choice but to move on.

3.Since the trio spends so much time together, Hermione would have to have been deliberately decieving Harry and Ron to keep her relationship with Krum secret.
Hermione is under no obligation to reveal every aspect of her private life to her close male friends. While they are very close in other ways, I could understand how it might be awkward for her to discuss her love life with the boys, particularly given that one of them is Ron, who she already seems to have some feelings for and who has already reacted poorly to even her Yule Ball date with Krum. Harry, the more objective observor in the HBP revelation, has no problem believing that Hermione snogged Krum, suggesting that he at least seems to find it consistent with what he knew of their relationship. In terms of timing, we know that their different class schedules mean that the trio is canonically separate for at least a brief period each week, even assuming (which I don't) that they spent every waking moment together besides that. In addition, we know that Hermione is fond of the library, which is where she met Krum in the first place. It would have been very easy for her to tell the boys, if questioned, that she was going to the library - which could have been true, if she had arranged to meet Krum there. That may have been a lie , but it was not an elaborate deception, and not unheard of in the annals of male-female interaction. I doubt that it happened frequently, either.

It would make Ginny a terrible friend for telling her secret.
As Ron's reaction proves, Ginny was wrong to tell Ron about the snog. However, given that the kiss occurred two years earlier, Ginny might not have considered it a "huge" secret any more. It wasn't as if she told Ron the morning after it happened. Ginny also might have considered it to be a pretty logical assumption, rather than a shock, which is indeed the way in which Harry accepts the information. Ginny also may not have anticipated the extreme immaturity of Ron's reaction, again given that the information was TWO YEARS OLD and not something outside the realm of teenage behavior. Granted, than wasn't Ginny's call to make and she shouldn't have done it. But it isn't a horrible betrayal either.

Canon doesn't confirm that what Ginny says is true.
Only to the extent that hearsay is never as reliable as the evidence of our own senses. On that basis, we also don't have any canon to back up Hagrid's account of his time with the giants. However, unless we have a particular reason to believe that the story told is false, it just makes sense to accept such statements as true. When it isn't true, JKR usually makes that clear - for example, it is obvious that Hagrid is hiding something when the trio asks him about how he got his bruises. For the reasons I mentioned above, Hermione snogging Krum makes sense - and revealing the statement to have been false at this point makes no sense, since it is now a non-issue. There is also the JKR interview, about which we will have to agree to disagree, I think.

Hermione was never remotely attracted to Krum.

We don't know that. We know that she ultimately chose not to become seriously involved with him. There is a difference.

Harry never saw anything to support the conclusion that they were a couple.

If that is true, then why isn't he surprised when Ginny tell him that the two snogged? He didn't see the snog, but he know that they went to the ball together, that Hermione seems somewhat embarassed and secretive about the whole situation, that she is the thing Krum would miss most two months after the ball (suggesting that they have maintained contact - how could he miss her if they never spent time together), and that Krum is jealous of Harry's supposed relationship with her five months later. He also knows that the two have exchanged some letters after OotP, suggesting that they at least maintained contact during the year.

Ginny is not Hermione and cannot speak for her.
Perhaps she shouldn't have, but she can if Hermione confided in her. I know you see this as unlikely given the girls' relationship, but JKR doesn't seem to agree with you. Ginny seems to know that Hermione is going to the ball with Krum during GoF, and Hermione knows that Ginny is going out with Michael and how they met before the boys do. She also is at least close enough to the younger girl to have given her advice about Harry .These things suggest that the two discuss romantic issues with each other.

Jo would have to jump through hoops to explain why there was no evidence in GoF to support it.
At worst, she would have to say something like "I probably should have made it clearer." This is hardly the literary crime of the century (or even the series). I don't even agree that she did anything wrong in presenting the relationship, but even if you do it isn't a terribly significant issue. If the problem is so small that one sentence (i.e. "Harry had noticed that Hermione had been spending more time away from the room, a subejct that he studiously avoided mentioning in front of Ron, who still became sullen at any mention of Krum's name") would fix it, than it isn't a terrible mistake.

Wow, I spent way too much time on that!

[Sugabeen]

I suppose you have to consider the strength of Hermione's friendship with Ginny when wondering why there was no mention of a kiss between her and Krum.

She has no other female friends to swap stories about boys with, and I just don't see her doing that with Harry or Ron. Boys don't usually like to hear their girl friends talking about boys anyway-even if they are just friends with the girls, so it wouldn't have come out that way.

I don't see Hermione as a very girly girl either-I have plenty of female friends who are like her and they don't go into details about their love lives! Yes, she liked dressing up, but she's equally happy as herself-she wouldn't bother to do her hair all the time just to make a boy happy!

I think Jo is more concerned with explaining what Hermione is all about-she might want a relationship, but it isn't a high priority for her, and there's a lot more to her character than that. Spending too much time telling us what went on with Victor would detract from her true nature.

Besides, a good author doesn't explain all the little details as its fun for the reader to allow their imagination to fill in gaps.

I don't go along with people who are saying that if she did kiss him and said she didn't then it points to her being a liar or a manipulator-its her personal business. I don't think Harry would have mentioned that he'd kissed Cho if Hermione hadn't asked him straight out.
She likes Ron-she's not going to go around saying that she kissed someone else, even if she did....she doesn't want to rub it in to Ron, for one thing-look how hurt she was when Ron was with Lavender.
It doesn't taint her entire character to lie about it.

[PotterFreak0515]

I suppose. It doesn't really matter, does it? Except for Krum being at the Bill and Fleur's wedding and Ron getting jealous. I don't think it'll even come up. Ginny said she did and, though she was in a rage and trying to madden her brother, I trust her on that.

[sparkly]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

I think it's rather sweet myself. I think it would be better to have your first kiss with someone you love as opposed to some random boy you aren't even attracted to. But that's just me.

While that may be how you want Hermione to behave, what's important is what JKR wants. We can't impose our own preferences on what happened - we can only use what's given us in the books. What we have is JKR causing two characters to state positively that Hermione kissed Viktor, and neither of those statements have been contradicted. We do not have any indication that either Harry or Ginny only think their statements are true, and none of the other characters express any doubt about their statements.

World Book Day Chat HPFreak7: How did Harry get the Marauder's Map back, when Crouch Jr. had it last? JK Rowling replies -> Loads of people have asked me this, I knew I should have shown Harry nipping into Moody's empty office and getting it back, but I assumed you'd all know that's what he did. Sorry!

She also addressed it on her website. Both times she is apologetic for it and, on her websites, considers adding a line about that somewhere to clear it up. I don't think she actually did that, but it was something that caused confusion that she said she should have included on page.

This quote shows that JKR is sorry she wasn't clear about how the map was returned, but she never says she made a mistake. As you said JKR doesn't make those kind of mistakes, and it's highly unlikely she'll make a mistake about the development of Ron and Hermione's relationship, since she's been nurturing it for six books. Therefore she did not make a mistake in GOF, and she didn't make one in HBP. Since Ginny and Harry were deliberately given lines to speak that positively state that Hermione kissed Viktor, and those statements have not been contradicted, the logical conclusion is that JKR intended Hermione to have kissed Viktor.

I really don't see her making the same mistake twice - particularly not with an issue that is such a major part of the Ron/Hermione subplot. She pays too much attention to detail for that.

Agreed. That confirms that Ginny and Harry were not mistaken. Hermione snogged Viktor.

[HagathaChristie]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

It would have been nice if Jo had written in a prior relationship for Hermione - with Krum or anyone - but she chose not to do that.

I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of readers believe JKR did include a prior relationship for Hermione, with Viktor, as it's in the canon.

World Book Day Chat HPFreak7: How did Harry get the Marauder's Map back, when Crouch Jr. had it last? JK Rowling replies -> Loads of people have asked me this, I knew I should have shown Harry nipping into Moody's empty office and getting it back, but I assumed you'd all know that's what he did. Sorry!

Originally Posted by meesha1971

She also addressed it on her website. Both times she is apologetic for it and, on her websites, considers adding a line about that somewhere to clear it up. I don't think she actually did that, but it was something that caused confusion that she said she should have included on page.

I really don't see her making the same mistake twice - particularly not with an issue that is such a major part of the Ron/Hermione subplot. She pays too much attention to detail for that.

Thanks for posting the quote. Her map comment could also be taken as her saying she'd assumed her readers would be smart enough to figure it out and that she didn't realize she'd have to spoonfeed every tiny little detail for us to get it. I don't see it as a mistake personally. Harry getting the map back might be a bit more pertinent because it involves our main character and we get the story through him, but I think with regard to other characters, we do have to realize that we are limited to Harry's view and we aren't normally going to witness things that Harry doesn't witness.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Actually, we do know what Hermione does when she is not with Harry and Ron - she goes to the library and she studies.

Hermione has had classes that the boys aren't in, so obviously she does some activities and has some interactions with others that the boys (and us as readers) don't necessarily know about. The boys didn't know she'd gotten friendly with Krum, after all.

[quote=meesha1971Hermione is the only person who can reveal what she does off page. Ginny can't do that - neither can Harry for that matter. And we still need something in GOF to support it or there is a plot hole.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it qualifies as a plot hole. There is ample opportunity for it to have happened, and she did see Krum socially so it is not beyond reasonability at all.

[Melfina]

Hehehe HagathaChristie, I love your sig pic
I do believe Krum and Hermione kissed, why would Ginny lie about it? Hermione could have mentioned it any time to her whenever they sit together talking without the boys.
And I have a feeling it wasn't a forceful hormone-induced sloppy kiss or anything, probably a very sweet kiss that they shared when they had a tender moment alone. Krum and Hermione are hardly the types to kiss like crazed teens. I think outside the moment of the kiss they remained dear friends (the pen pal writing) and never took the relationship further, before and after.

[Yoana]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Jo publicly admitted that she made a mistake regarding the map. She said that she should have included something on page to show how Harry got it back and neglecting to do so caused confusion amongst the readers. She's not going to make the same mistake twice. Jo is very meticulous with little details - even going so far as to give reference on page to the fact that the students bathe and use the bathroom. Most authors don't pay that much attention to detail, but Jo does because she hates the kind of writing that creates plot holes and raises unanswered questions.

Actually, the bathroom, in both senses, was introduced for plot reasons - Moaning Myrtle and the Egg. It wasn't for punctuality really. If it were, we may justly ask, since the students are never shown brushing their teeth before breakfast, does it mean they don"t Harry ususally goes from bed straight to the Great Hall, does that mean that he doesn't even change after he gets up? We don't even know if there are any bathrooms in the dormitories - what do they do if they have to go to the bathroom at night? And so on. Jo doesn't give that much attention to details, she does it only when it serves the plot or is necessary in the situation described. Many things happen off page.

It's a big deal because it turns Hermione into a deceptive, manipulative person who used Krum, went to great lengths to hide that fact, and deliberately lied about it. It creates a plot hole because there is nothing in GOF to support it - no motive or opportunity for Hermione to have been making out.

Having a prior relationship - even making out - would not be a big deal. But the lengths that Hermione would have to have gone to to hide something like that - as well as deliberately lying to Ron about it make it a big deal. Not to mention what a terrible person that would make Ginny - to toss off such a huge secret of Hermione's without giving any consideration to Hermione's feelings or showing any remorse for it at all.

As much as you want to read into her evasive answers concerning Viktor, she never gives a direct answer whether she was attracted to him or whether they kissed. Never. She doesn't say, "I want to be just friends with him", she says, "The purpose of this is to make friends." Which is pretty evasive. She doesn't say, "He is and has always been just a pal", she says, "I can have a pen pal if I want to!", which is not only evasive, but defensive as well. She is defending her right to privacy. There is not a direct statement from Hermione that can be read only as confirmation that she has never kissed Viktor and has never been attracted to him. If there were, we wouldn't have different interpretations of her words. So she didn't lie, she just evaded the questions, which is very different - because she is not obliged to answer all the questions Harry or Ron may ask her.

It is not canon. Canon only shows that Ginny thinks it is true. There is no canon at all that even remotely supports Ginny's statement.

Harry's internal confirmation, without any hesitation, is on page, therefore canon, and it does support Ginny's statement.

Hermione was never romantically attracted to Krum. She never exhibited any behavior to suggest that she was making out with anyone. Harry never saw anything to support the conclusion. There are no unexplained absences in GOF - there are no instances where Hermione showed up late and/or disheveled - or flustered when asked where she'd been. Harry never saw her with Krum behaving as a couple. Nothing.

All this shows that it just wasn't shown on page for the reader to see and draw conclusions.

Ginny is not Hermione and cannot speak for Hermione without corroborating evidence on page. That is a fact. Her statement can only be considered an assumption until something occurs on page to prove that it is true - and that can only come from Hermione. Nobody else can speak for Hermione's actions off page but Hermione.

Which can happen in Deathly Hallows. Until then, the possibility remains.

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Jo publicly admitted that she made a mistake regarding the map. She said that she should have included something on page to show how Harry got it back and neglecting to do so caused confusion amongst the readers.

So, I guess the next rewrite of GoF would have two additional sentences. One for Harry getting the map and another explaining Hermione's 'mysterious' disappearances about which Harry couldn't care less.

Jo never said that she made a mistake, she said that she assumes that most people would figure it out. It only caught my eye because of the scene in PoA where Lupin returned the map to Harry, and because I'd been reading GoF closely in preparation for the release of OoTP. If the big plot hole you're talking about is anything like that, most people wouldn't even notice.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

It's a big deal because it turns Hermione into a deceptive, manipulative person who used Krum, went to great lengths to hide that fact, and deliberately lied about it. It creates a plot hole because there is nothing in GOF to support it - no motive or opportunity for Hermione to have been making out.

Or, it turns Hermione into a typical, insecure teenager in a relationship for the first time, who doesn't want to talk about it to her male friends because she's shy about it, and because she doesn't want to risk losing a close friend over a potential romance. I'd say that she's a bit confused about her feelings, and about how to deal with it. It's not that she's planning this grand deception and laughing to herself as the plans come to fruitition, she's just bumbling through a confusing situation.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

But the lengths that Hermione would have to have gone to to hide something like that - as well as deliberately lying to Ron about it make it a big deal.

What lengths? By the time Ron asks her about Krum again, it's over, and they're just friends. Ron is still jealous, however, and why should Hermione deliberately try and antagonize him by telling him about kissing Krum? Especially, when it is none of his business? Why is Hermione obligated to reveal this to Ron? How do you figure that Ron or Harry has a right to know about all this?

Hermione took the initiative and asked out Ron on a date. Granted, the invitation was a bit awkward, because Ron kind of forced it out of her by mocking her. It shouldn't matter at all what Hermione got up to with Krum two years before. We didn't see Harry being upset about Ginny's previous relationships. It was the same even with Cho. The only reason discussing Cedric made him uncomfortable was because it always made Cho cry afterwards. He never was angry with Cho for dating Cedric first, even after she'd been showing interest in Harry.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Not to mention what a terrible person that would make Ginny - to toss off such a huge secret of Hermione's without giving any consideration to Hermione's feelings or showing any remorse for it at all.

The kiss occured two years before. I don't see why anyone would think that it is still a big secret. Besides, as she says very clearly, it's only Ron that makes such a big deal of it. Clearly, neither Ginny nor Harry think that it's such a big deal that Hermione and Krum would have kissed. Harry doesn't feel betrayed even though Hermione had never told him. He's unsurprised by it.

Thus, all this talk about "remorse" and "forgiveness" is completely irrelevant. Ron's immaturity and his inability to handle the truth is the issue here. He had to grow up sometime.

The decent thing to do for Ron when he walked in on Ginny and Dean would have been to walk away, and not let them know that they'd been spotted. Ron, however, chose to be inconsiderate and embarass his sister and Dean. Still, Ginny was considerate enough to ask Dean to leave before she started in on Ron. She had more sense than to embarass Ron in Dean's presence.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

It is not canon. Canon only shows that Ginny thinks it is true. There is no canon at all that even remotely supports Ginny's statement. Hermione was never romantically attracted to Krum. She never exhibited any behavior to suggest that she was making out with anyone. Harry never saw anything to support the conclusion. There are no unexplained absences in GOF - there are no instances where Hermione showed up late and/or disheveled - or flustered when asked where she'd been. Harry never saw her with Krum behaving as a couple. Nothing.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is canon. As of HBP, Ginny's statement is unchallenged, and even confirmed by Harry. In Ginny's other guess about Tonks, she makes it clear that it's an assumption. She says, "I think mum's trying to...". Ginny's statement does not provide any room for speculation. There's no doubt on her part. There's also nothing to indicate that the kiss/snog didn't happen. No one has denied that it happened. It's irrelevant that it's not shown on-page, because Harry has confirmed it.

Hermione was blushing and stuttering whenever she talked about Krum being romantic. That indicates that she was affected by his charms. If she had shown no interest in Krum at all, why would Hermione be the one that Krum would miss the most? Cho was the person that Cedric would miss the most, and it is later confirmed that they had been seeing each other. Yet, Harry, for all his romantic interest in Cho, never noted anything of the sort to indicate that they were a couple, except for seeing them at the Ball and in the corridor afterwards. He was too worried about the Egg to really notice Hermione. In any case, Hermione had to have responded positively to Krum, because he's still attracted to her, months after the Ball. That indicates that Hermione did not blow him off, and that she encouraged him.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Ginny is not Hermione and cannot speak for Hermione without corroborating evidence on page. That is a fact. Her statement can only be considered an assumption until something occurs on page to prove that it is true - and that can only come from Hermione.

Not at all. Harry seems to think that Ginny would be in the know about something like that, because he confirms Ginny's statement immediately afterwards. Harry, who spends so much time with Hermione would know who her friends were. The confirmation doesn't need to come from Hermione. Few things in the story are confirmed that way. It all depends on how reliable the source is. In this case, Harry seems to think that Ginny is a reliable source of information on Hermione.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Jo would have to jump through hoops to explain why there is no evidence in GOF to support it because it would still create a plot hole in that regard.

Jo wouldn't have to get up from her chair, let alone jump. As seeker pointed out, there would be no plot hole. If someone asks her, she could just say, "Hogwarts is a pretty big place, and Hermione knows a lot of secret passages from hanging out with Harry", and the whole thing would be put to rest. No plot hole. If Harry was able to find mistletoe-free routes to all of his classes, then surely Hermione would be able to find a little niche with a bit of privacy with Krum. Even Ginny was able to do so. Hermione's hair is bushy and untamed all the time except for when she puts it up for parties. So, how would Harry even notice that her hair was off? Even if Harry were a 'hair connoiseur', would Hermione be stupid enough to ave a snogging session with Viktor, and then run to meet Harry and Ron without checking her appearance?

Originally Posted by meesha1971

I think it's rather sweet myself. I think it would be better to have your first kiss with someone you love as opposed to some random boy you aren't even attracted to. But that's just me.

You should definitely refrain from watching Shrek. . Sorry, but I couldn't resist. I just don't think that Hermione was optimistic enough to believe that everything would work out and wait 'unspoiled' for her 'true love's first kiss'. That is too idealistic, IMO. It would be a nice fairytale, true.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

It would have been nice if Jo had written in a prior relationship for Hermione - with Krum or anyone - but she chose not to do that.

Actually, she did. But others have explained that point very well, IMO.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

If it were true, then she would have had to go to great lengths to hide it - particularly considering that Rita Skeeter was digging around for dirt on Hermione. That would also go towards being manipulative and lying.

If anything, Rita bugging around would be an added incentive for Hermione to be careful about meeting Krum. That would also explain why Harry didn't see them being a couple in public. Neither Hermione nor Krum have a wish to be Rita's next victims.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Personally, I think Hermione is a better person than that. She wouldn't stomp all over Krum's feelings in that manner and she would have no reason to lie to Ron if she had dated Krum.

Hermione is a better person than that. All she did was date someone who was interested in her, to see if there was something there. She gave him a chance, realized by June that it wasn't working out, and decided to be just friends with him. It wasn't manipulative, or anything. She knew that it wouldn't be fair to Krum to push him away without giving him a chance. In fact, it's commendable that she is still friends with an ex, while all the others split up on bad terms.

Hermione did not lie to Ron. I don't see where you get that. Ron never asked her if they had ever kissed. Ron never asked her if they'd been dating. All she told him was that he was her pen-pal, which is true. They are pen-pals at that point. Ron never asked her about her feelings for Krum, he just wanted to know why she was still in contact with him, and then commented that Krum wanted to be more than just pen-pals with her. There's absolutely no reference whatsoever to Hermione's feelings. Hermione rolling her eyes at Harry can be interpreted as "Are we still on that?" or "He really needs to get over this".

The main point being, Ron never asked if they'd ever been anything more than friends. Hermione's stand is that they're pen-pals now. She never states that they'd always been just friends, that there never was anything between them.

[SnorkackCatcher]

I'd assumed from what was said in GoF that they were seeing each other in the background (e.g. the 'would most miss' thing, and Krum saying that Hermione talked about Harry 'often', presumably there to indicate an offscreen relationship), and that this would most likely include some kissing. It was nice to see that confirmed in HBP.

As for it not being more obviously shown -- well, we didn't see the initial pre-Yule Ball meetings either, or for that matter any romantic scenes between Remus and Tonks before the end of HBP, or more than the briefest hints of Bill/Fleur before their engagement was announced, or anything at all of how Dean got together with Ginny, and so on. JKR seems to make the reasonable assumption that it doesn't need that much detail about these side relationships -- the important thing is that they're taking place, they don't concern Harry directly.

I've never seen why any of this would be a problem -- unless of course you have a very idealised view of Hermione, or of relationships.

[Yoana]

Originally Posted by SnorkackCatcher

I'd assumed from what was said in GoF that they were seeing each other in the background (e.g. the 'would most miss' thing, and Krum saying that Hermione talked about Harry 'often', presumably there to indicate an offscreen relationship), and that this would most likely include some kissing. It was nice to see that confirmed in HBP.

As for it not being more obviously shown -- well, we didn't see the initial pre-Yule Ball meetings either, or for that matter any romantic scenes between Remus and Tonks before the end of HBP, or more than the briefest hints of Bill/Fleur before their engagement was announced, or anything at all of how Dean got together with Ginny, and so on. JKR seems to make the reasonable assumption that it doesn't need that much detail about these side relationships -- the important thing is that they're taking place, they don't concern Harry directly.

I've never seen why any of this would be a problem -- unless of course you have a very idealised view of Hermione, or of relationships.

You've summed it up brilliantly! That's exactly how I see it, too.

[MissHufflepuff]

What I think is this:
Hermione goes to the library - as always, and sees Krum there. He talks her to her, obviously likes her. She's a 14/15 year year old girl and obviously deeply compliment and maybe a bit in awe.
He talks to her a bit, eventhough she's a bit shy and shies away from him a bit...yet he asks her to the ball and she agrees (maybe she'd been considering ron, but he's obviously hadn't asked her first).
Maybe he kissed her at the ball, just one little kiss (no tongues) and then she turned away, and didn;t ksis him again - but that was it.
I'm sure they saw each other, like afirst, cute relationship...but I doubt much happened. Even though i can see her blushing and being quite in awe of him, i can't see her talking about him as a 'physicla being' like she did to Harry. SHe jsut doesn't seem as open. Hermione seems like she'd be quite shy, and Krum quite resepcting of her views.
And then he left, and she writes to him - like a pen pal.

It's likely he still likes her, but she has to keep saying 'no', because deep down she likes ron. i doubt JK would throw it in in if hermione hadn't kissed him, it was part of hte character development - angered ron and helped speed along the harry/ginny and ron/hermione. Plus she's already said how she doesn't like her characters' first kisses to be with the ones they end up with.

And did she and Krum ever actually meet over the summer?!? Hmmm.

[kingwidgit]

Originally Posted by MissHufflepuff

And did she and Krum ever actually meet over the summer?!? Hmmm.

It's kind of implied, off-page, that they did.

World BooK Day, 2004 renata: What happened between Hermione and Viktor Krum during the summer? JK Rowling replies -> Ron would like to know that, too.

• There was a month between the end of school [Cedric died June 24] and the dementor attack in Little Whinging [August 2].
• Lupin said "We've set up headquarters somewhere undetectable. It's taken a while..." in reference to 12 Grimmauld Place.
• At some point during that month away from school, it becomes apparent to Harry that Ron and Hermione are together while he's stuck alone, without information, at 4 Privet Drive.

There was time for Hermione to visit Krum before everyone moved into headquarters, but there's really no canon to prove that she did or didn't and there's always the chance that Ron could just be assuming that Hermione visited Krum.