Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Harry Potter Archives

"Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.



 
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 5:25 pm
Severus15  Female.gif Severus15 is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 5250 days
Location: Up in the Great White North
Age: 30
Posts: 71
"Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

It seems like most people seem to agree that Harry is refering to Dumbledore when he says to Snape, "Kill me like you killed him, you coward."

However, this is Harry's second time he accuses Snpae of cowardice. His first accusation is met with: "Coward, did you call me Potter? Your father only attacked when it was four on one. What would you call him, I wonder?"

And then Harry responds with "Kill me like you killed him..." (Or something to that extent)

Could Harry instead be refering to Snape telling Voldemort about the prophecy? This was of course a shocking revation for Harry - one that he discoverd on the same night as the attack on Hogwarts - one that certainly would have stayed with Harry for the rest of the night?

Thoughts?

(This is different than the "Snape's reaction to being called a coward" thread as it explicitly focuses on Harry's reaction)


Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 8:40 pm
Lord Godric's Avatar
Lord Godric  Male.gif Lord Godric is offline
Squee-worthy
 
Joined: 4600 days
Posts: 4,524
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I have heard the arguement that this was referring to James before but I just don't buy it. People say that Harry couldn't be talking about Dumbledore because Snape had just presented a new subject - James, therefore, Harry has to be talking about him. It just doesn't make sense that Harry would be leaving Dumbledore's murder chasing Snape and thinking about his father.


  #3  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 8:42 pm
JJFinch's Avatar
JJFinch  Female.gif JJFinch is offline
Fifth Year
 
Joined: 4034 days
Location: Cornwall, England
Age: 26
Posts: 834
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Good idea, but at the time Harry was so full of the shock of Dumbledore's death that he wasn't thinking about his father. Really I don't think it's relevant.


__________________


"Six years ter the day since we met, Harry, d'yeh remember it?"
"Vaguely...didn't you smash down the front door, give Dudley a pig's tail and tell me I was a wizard?"
"I forge' the details."

  #4  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 8:52 pm
canismajoris  Male.gif canismajoris is offline
The Forums Red Hypergiant Star
 
Joined: 4389 days
Location: əɹəɥ
Age: 34
Posts: 2,766
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Godric View Post
I have heard the arguement that this was referring to James before but I just don't buy it. People say that Harry couldn't be talking about Dumbledore because Snape had just presented a new subject - James, therefore, Harry has to be talking about him. It just doesn't make sense that Harry would be leaving Dumbledore's murder chasing Snape and thinking about his father.
Yeah, I would agree with you. Just because Snape opened a new subject doesn't mean Harry was listening to him.


  #5  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 8:54 pm
mather  Male.gif mather is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 4473 days
Location: I have no idea.....
Age: 24
Posts: 143
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I agree with the others.


__________________
PROUD TO BE A RAVENCLAW
  #6  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 9:31 pm
MHPFAN's Avatar
MHPFAN  Female.gif MHPFAN is offline
BANNED... No really they are...
 
Joined: 4304 days
Location: Telemetry Floor...
Posts: 1,543
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Godric View Post
I have heard the arguement that this was referring to James before but I just don't buy it. People say that Harry couldn't be talking about Dumbledore because Snape had just presented a new subject - James, therefore, Harry has to be talking about him. It just doesn't make sense that Harry would be leaving Dumbledore's murder chasing Snape and thinking about his father.
I agree. I think Harry was only referring to Snape killing Dumbledore and not James.


__________________
Because all it takes is a ready mind, a steady heart, and a determined attitude.
Proud Gryffindor!
Nursing Class of 2007!
ALL HAIL THE PIXIE QUEEN TINKIE!!
Mave, RN.
Winner of Happiest Hoggie Award (2011).
  #7  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 9:33 pm
Solace_Forever  Female.gif Solace_Forever is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 4021 days
Location: in a pineapple under the sea
Age: 26
Posts: 322
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

i think you have heard ebough but i agree too but u could argue


__________________

Leaves from the vine, Falling so slow, Like fragile tiny shells, Drifting in the foam.
Little soldier boy, come marching home
Brave soldier boy, comes marching home.

We miss you Uncle Iroh

Proud member of OFINOA (obsessed fans in need of Avatar)

Germany to win Euro 08
  #8  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 9:36 pm
Ginny_Weasley_x  Female.gif Ginny_Weasley_x is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4030 days
Location: Scotland
Posts: 9
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I agree - Dumbledore is what's on harry's mind - not his father


__________________
It is the unknown we fear when we look upon death and darkness, nothing more.
-Albus Dumbledore
  #9  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 9:41 pm
Solace_Forever  Female.gif Solace_Forever is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 4021 days
Location: in a pineapple under the sea
Age: 26
Posts: 322
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

i agree but as i like to discuss
dumbledore's death could remind harry of his fathers death even though harry couldnt remember being with his father dumbledore was always there and suchh a big loss could remind him losing his father
well ?


__________________

Leaves from the vine, Falling so slow, Like fragile tiny shells, Drifting in the foam.
Little soldier boy, come marching home
Brave soldier boy, comes marching home.

We miss you Uncle Iroh

Proud member of OFINOA (obsessed fans in need of Avatar)

Germany to win Euro 08
  #10  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 9:43 pm
mysterious's Avatar
mysterious  Male.gif mysterious is offline
Oracle Octopus
 
Joined: 4595 days
Location: Was right here...
Age: 28
Posts: 4,004
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

It was indeed for Dumbledore.

But why do you think that it could be referring to James?


  #11  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 9:51 pm
Solace_Forever  Female.gif Solace_Forever is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 4021 days
Location: in a pineapple under the sea
Age: 26
Posts: 322
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

maybe because snape brings james into the conversation and harry starts to think of james as well dumbledore


__________________

Leaves from the vine, Falling so slow, Like fragile tiny shells, Drifting in the foam.
Little soldier boy, come marching home
Brave soldier boy, comes marching home.

We miss you Uncle Iroh

Proud member of OFINOA (obsessed fans in need of Avatar)

Germany to win Euro 08
  #12  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 10:02 pm
MHPFAN's Avatar
MHPFAN  Female.gif MHPFAN is offline
BANNED... No really they are...
 
Joined: 4304 days
Location: Telemetry Floor...
Posts: 1,543
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
But why do you think that it could be referring to James?
Because it could be taken metaphorically as well, since it was right after Snape gave Voldy the beginning of the prophecy that Voldemort decided to take it upon himself and kill the Potters. In a sense, Snape did kill Harry's father. However, in that particular scene, I believe that he was referring to Dumbledore.


__________________
Because all it takes is a ready mind, a steady heart, and a determined attitude.
Proud Gryffindor!
Nursing Class of 2007!
ALL HAIL THE PIXIE QUEEN TINKIE!!
Mave, RN.
Winner of Happiest Hoggie Award (2011).
  #13  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 10:08 pm
arithmancer's Avatar
arithmancer  Undisclosed.gif arithmancer is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 4590 days
Location: The Hogwarts Boathouse
Posts: 7,937
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I think Harry means Dumbledore, and Snape knows it.

If Harry was referring to the Prophecy, I would expect him to accuse Snape of killing both his parents, and with no ambiguity. "HE KILLED MY MUM AND DAD!" is what Harry shouts about Sirius Black in PoA, for comparison.

An additional reason to suppose they both mean Dumbledore is the 'like you killed him" bit. Were Snape to kill him at that moment, it would indeed be just like the way he killed Dumbledore, a defenseless person. This comparison in made explicitly in the text, a half a page before Harry's line:

HBP
Snape closed in and looked down on him where he lay, wandless and defenseless as Dumbledore had been. Snape's pale face, illuminated by the flaming cabin, was suffused with hatred just as it had been before he had cursed Dumbledore.


__________________
The Sorting Hat says I belong in Slytherin.



“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

All was well.


Avatar by nerwende, signature art by sigune, used with permission.
  #14  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 10:14 pm
mysterious's Avatar
mysterious  Male.gif mysterious is offline
Oracle Octopus
 
Joined: 4595 days
Location: Was right here...
Age: 28
Posts: 4,004
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MHPFAN View Post
Because it could be taken metaphorically as well, since it was right after Snape gave Voldy the beginning of the prophecy that Voldemort decided to take it upon himself and kill the Potters. In a sense, Snape did kill Harry's father. However, in that particular scene, I believe that he was referring to Dumbledore.
I am aware of that but why will Harry get there........I was wondering if there was some theory behind it.


  #15  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 10:19 pm
MHPFAN's Avatar
MHPFAN  Female.gif MHPFAN is offline
BANNED... No really they are...
 
Joined: 4304 days
Location: Telemetry Floor...
Posts: 1,543
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
I think Harry means Dumbledore, and Snape knows it.

If Harry was referring to the Prophecy, I would expect him to accuse Snape of killing both his parents, and with no ambiguity. "HE KILLED MY MUM AND DAD!" is what Harry shouts about Sirius Black in PoA, for comparison.

An additional reason to suppose they both mean Dumbledore is the 'like you killed him" bit. Were Snape to kill him at that moment, it would indeed be just like the way he killed Dumbledore, a defenseless person. This comparison in made explicitly in the text, a half a page before Harry's line:

HBP
Snape closed in and looked down on him where he lay, wandless and defenseless as Dumbledore had been. Snape's pale face, illuminated by the flaming cabin, was suffused with hatred just as it had been before he had cursed Dumbledore.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
I am aware of that but why will Harry get there....
I'm not sure because I doubt his parents came to his mind when he was so angry at Snape.


__________________
Because all it takes is a ready mind, a steady heart, and a determined attitude.
Proud Gryffindor!
Nursing Class of 2007!
ALL HAIL THE PIXIE QUEEN TINKIE!!
Mave, RN.
Winner of Happiest Hoggie Award (2011).
  #16  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 10:25 pm
mysterious's Avatar
mysterious  Male.gif mysterious is offline
Oracle Octopus
 
Joined: 4595 days
Location: Was right here...
Age: 28
Posts: 4,004
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MHPFAN View Post
I'm not sure because I doubt his parents came to his mind when he was so angry at Snape.
Exactly, he was too occupied with other things to think of anything as deep as that.


  #17  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 10:39 pm
Lord Godric's Avatar
Lord Godric  Male.gif Lord Godric is offline
Squee-worthy
 
Joined: 4600 days
Posts: 4,524
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
Exactly, he was too occupied with other things to think of anything as deep as that.
The arguement is because Snape had just mentioned James Coward, did you call me Potter? Your father only attacked when it was four on one. What would you call him, I wonder? Then Harry says kill me like you killed him.


  #18  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 11:03 pm
mysterious's Avatar
mysterious  Male.gif mysterious is offline
Oracle Octopus
 
Joined: 4595 days
Location: Was right here...
Age: 28
Posts: 4,004
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Godric View Post
The arguement is because Snape had just mentioned James Coward, did you call me Potter? Your father only attacked when it was four on one. What would you call him, I wonder? Then Harry says kill me like you killed him.
I re-read the part....

Flight of the Prince, HBP 'You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them- I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so....no!'

Harry had dived for his wand; Snape shot a hex at it and it flew feet away into the darkness and out of sight.

'Kill me, then,' paused Harry, who felt no fear at all, but only rage and contempt. 'Kill me like you killed him, you coward-'



Now that makes it clear that Snape mentioned James once and that to not specifically, he didn't say anything that would insult him or any such thing that would incite Harry into retaliating for James. Moreover like mentioned Harry was too angry and full of contempt to notice any thing like that, and respond to that so deeply.


  #19  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 11:44 pm
ModernInkling  Female.gif ModernInkling is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 4140 days
Location: In a theater... on a stage...
Posts: 256
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Actually, I could be wrong, but I've always thought that in the passage in question, Harry was referring to his dad with "Kill me like you killed him."

Harry had just found out that day that Snape helped to betray his parents, and it had affected him quite strongly. I think it was still enough on his mind, that when Snape mentioned his dad, he would think of it immediately.

Like I said, I could be wrong, but ever since I first read that part, I've thought he meant James...


__________________
"Dragons will wander about the waste places, and the phoenix will soar from her nest of fire into the air.
We shall lay our hands upon the basilisk, and see the jewel in the toad's head.
Champing his gilded oats, the Hippogriff will stand in our stalls,
and over our heads will float the Blue Bird, singing of beautiful and impossible things,
of things that are lovely and that never happen, of things that are not and that should be."
- Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying
  #20  
Old February 24th, 2007, 1:39 am
Severus15  Female.gif Severus15 is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 5250 days
Location: Up in the Great White North
Age: 30
Posts: 71
Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

An embelishment to my original post that could extend discussion here to more relevant matters:

To what extent does Harry blame Snape for his parents' deaths?
Will this interfere at all with Harry's mission to collect the remaining Horcruxes?


 
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Harry Potter Archives

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 9:14 pm.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.