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"Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.



 
 
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  #21  
Old February 24th, 2007, 12:57 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJFinch View Post
Good idea, but at the time Harry was so full of the shock of Dumbledore's death that he wasn't thinking about his father. Really I don't think it's relevant.
I agree. On both counts.


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  #22  
Old February 24th, 2007, 2:35 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Harry just witnessed Snape killing Dumbledore. He's in shock, ANGRY and set on vengeance. It's clear to me, Harry was referring to Dumbledore. IMHO, it probably didn't register that Snape was belittling James. Harry just saw the most important and influential person in his life being killed. Snape killed the only man who ever trusted him. Harry didn't need to say "Kill me, like you killed Dumbledore you COWARD" for the two of them to know WHOM he was speaking about. Hense the strong reactions in both Harry and Snape--especially him.
If Harry had been talking about James, Snape would have sneered, hit Harry with a hex and made another slur about James. NOT fall apart like he did.


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  #23  
Old February 24th, 2007, 4:26 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I agree there would have been a different reaction from Snape, but I have several problems. Harry is seriously ****** off. He is still in shock about Dumbledore's death so I don't think he would have reference it like this. Also he chokes over the words when he repeats them to Hagrid. I don't think he would have done this if he had already said it out loud. This reaction of falling apart could be Snape's surprise that Harry knew what he had done. He also could have been in shock about what he had just done, kill Dumbledore, and unable to bring about his feeling for James.


  #24  
Old February 24th, 2007, 2:01 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Snape used to tell Harry bad things about his father every chance he could get. Hearing more bad things about his father from Snape is nothing new to Harry. From the moment Harry is unfrozen from the Tower scene, his whole purpose is to catch up with Snape. He runs through the fight in the castle, trying to get out the door as fast as possible. He casts a few spells, but his goal is to get to Snape. Dumbledore was more of a father to him at this point than James was. Harry was referring to Dumbledore when he said, "kill me like you killed him, you coward."


  #25  
Old February 24th, 2007, 2:35 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I would think that Harry was referring to Dumbledore because he died only minutes before this conversation took place.


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  #26  
Old February 24th, 2007, 4:26 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

i assumed it was dumbledore but it could be james. snape had just refered to him so it could really be either or.


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  #27  
Old February 24th, 2007, 6:15 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

That's funny.. Ever since my first reading I always got the impression that Harry meant James.

Snape has just admitted to Harry that he is the half-blood prince, and he's angry at Harry for using Levicorpus saying "You'll steal my spells like your father" And then Harry says "Kill me like you killed him." Snape brought James into the conversation and it just seems natural for Harry to say that.. It is true that it was because of Snape that James died.. Harry blames both Snape and Pettigrew for bringing about his parents' death.


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  #28  
Old February 24th, 2007, 6:21 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I could be wrong, but I always thought he was referring to James in the passage. After all, he could have gone on about how Snape killed Dumbledore, but Snape brought up Harry's father. That, I know, must have struck a nerve.


  #29  
Old February 24th, 2007, 8:27 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

and doesn't harry blame snape for killing sirius as well.
what if he was referring to sirius and dumbledore as they were deaths harry had witnessed and felt.


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  #30  
Old February 24th, 2007, 11:40 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I don't think so, sirius wasn't fresh in his mind. Could be though....


  #31  
Old February 25th, 2007, 1:37 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Dumbledore. Clearly. Harry isn't in the emotional state to make any far-fetched connections at that point and he has seen during his Dementor training certain evidence that has convinced him that LV personally killed his dad. During these flashes of memory he has never seen Snape.


  #32  
Old February 25th, 2007, 4:54 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I think Snape bringing up James was just another way to take a jab at Harry...ANYTIME Snape wanted to hurt Harry he brought up his parents.

Harry meant Dumledore.


  #33  
Old February 25th, 2007, 7:59 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I always believed that Harry was referring to Snape just killing Dumbledore. Yes Snape brought in James and insulted James but Harry had just witnessed Snape murder Dumbledore right in front of his eyes. I really think that that's what Harry was referring to.


  #34  
Old February 25th, 2007, 8:07 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I automatically assumed Harry was referring about Snape killing Dumbledore. When I read the DIATSSISE theory I changed my view on that exchanged right away.


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  #35  
Old February 26th, 2007, 3:21 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

What is particularly interesting is that, as an author, Jo has written it in an ambiguous manner.
To use the word "him" after references to a specific person ( in this case to Harry's "filthy father" James) would suggest that they refer to that person.

If she wanted to be very clear, she could have put Dumbledore's name or written it as "kill me like you JUST killed him".

So we would have to consider at least, why Jo might want this to seem ambiguous.

We should also consider Snape's thoughts here-whatever Harry might have meant, what did Snape take it as? And how did this affect his reactions afterwards?
If Snape didn't actually kill Dumbledore, then he might assume Harry is talking about James because that is the death he feels responsible for.

Also we don't yet fully understand how close Snape was to Dumbledore. If he is loyal, and Snape has either just witnessed Dumbledore's death or played a part in it, then he may be feeling grief of his own. maybe this could connect Snape to Harry's feelings of loss about his father in a new and unexpected way for Snape. ( We don't know how close Snape was to his parents or if this is his first encounter with losing someone he really cared about or who really cared about him )

I'd have to re-read the passage to see if his reactions to the "Kill me like you killed him" comment betray anything else about Snape that could be interpreted along the lines above.


  #36  
Old February 26th, 2007, 3:31 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Perhaps they are talking about two different people. A thread of understand did not suddenly shoot between them. If he was talking about James, Snivilus wouldn't understand him because he doesn't know Harry knows he passed the info that led to Harry's parents deaths.


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  #37  
Old February 26th, 2007, 4:00 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Harry has been knocked to the ground and disarmed by the spell Snape shot at him. Harry says, "kill me like you killed him, you coward" because he is disarmed just like Dumbledore was. There is no way that this comment referred to James. First of all, James wasn't killed by Snape. And I don't think James was disarmed when he was killed by Voldemort, although I am not positive.


  #38  
Old February 28th, 2007, 5:39 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SusanBones111 View Post
Harry has been knocked to the ground and disarmed by the spell Snape shot at him. Harry says, "kill me like you killed him, you coward" because he is disarmed just like Dumbledore was. There is no way that this comment referred to James. First of all, James wasn't killed by Snape. And I don't think James was disarmed when he was killed by Voldemort, although I am not positive.
No, I don't think James was...and he died significantly differently to Dumbledore...standing, fighting.
So, you make a good point. If you take the phrase "kill me like you killed him" to mean "in the manner of" or "in the same way as" and not just "as well as" then yes, it would make sense that it referred to Dumbledore, as he was also disarmed.


  #39  
Old February 28th, 2007, 9:19 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I always thought he was referring to James- it seemed to me that, as his father had been dragged into the conversation, that Harry would have said "Kill me like you killed dumbledore". I could be wrong but i thought 'him/her' always refers to the person you mentioned last.


  #40  
Old February 28th, 2007, 2:49 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugabeen
Also we don't yet fully understand how close Snape was to Dumbledore. If he is loyal, and Snape has either just witnessed Dumbledore's death or played a part in it, then he may be feeling grief of his own. maybe this could connect Snape to Harry's feelings of loss about his father in a new and unexpected way for Snape. ( We don't know how close Snape was to his parents or if this is his first encounter with losing someone he really cared about or who really cared about him )
There has been speculation in other threads that touch on this. IF there was initially a plan in place between Snape and Dumbledore regarding what was 'supposed ' to take place up on the tower, Snape may not realize 'yet' that Dumbledore is really dead, as it appears that the fall is what killed him, not the AK. Snape bringing up James at this particular moment could be from the fact that (he thinks) James was the only person he actually caused to die. I do think that it was left ambiguous for a reason, as with so many other things in the series.


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