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"Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.



 
 
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  #41  
Old February 28th, 2007, 3:47 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coco1965 View Post
James was the only person he actually caused to die. I do think that it was left ambiguous for a reason, as with so many other things in the series.
I don't feel that this is an ambigous comment. Snape did not kill James, Voldemort did. Harry knows that. Harry saw Snape kill Dumbledore, and that is what the comment is referring to.


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  #42  
Old February 28th, 2007, 3:57 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I must admit that I took it to refer til Dumbledore, but the thought did cross my mind...
We must keep in mind that this is the second time Jo chooses to use the word "him/her" and then leave it up to speculation who "him" is, even though it could seem obvious.
The other time is when Petunia in OotP mentions dementores she says "I heard that awfull boy tell "her" about them", we kind of all assumes that "her" refers to Lily (whereas the question about who "that awful boy" is stands open - but is not relevant for this thread). If Jo can refer to Lily as "her" but keep it open for speculation that it might not be Lily, then who says that "him" can't be James?
I agree that Harry was thinking about Dumbledore when he ran after Snape, but as it is already stated Snape turn the "conversation" onto James... perhaps Harry just "remembered" that Snape was also responsible for his fathers death, in a (from Harrys point of view) just a cowardly way as Dumbledores.
(I apoligize for potential miss spellings, I have a cat on top of my keybord...)


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  #43  
Old February 28th, 2007, 4:49 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

There is quite a bit of dialogue and action that happens between the first coward comment and the final one. Harry first calls Snape a coward on page 602, HBP, US ed. Then Snape’s comment about James. Then Harry tries to stupefy Snape. Snape says his line about “blocked and blocked again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed.” A Death Eater fires a crucio spell at Harry, which Snape stops. Snape says the line about Harry belonging to Voldemort. Harry fires the sectumsepra spell at Snape. He blocked Harry’s curse again. Harry tries Levicorpus on Snape. Snape retaliates by hitting Harry with a spell that knocked him to the ground.

Here is the part, that in my opinion, is why Harry meant Dumbledore when he said the second coward line.
Page 604:
Quote:
He could hear Hagrid yelling and Fang howling as Snape closed in and looked down on him where he lay, wandless and defenseless as Dumbledore had been.
(bold added)

Snape tells Harry that he was the Half Blood Prince. He mentions that Harry is turning his own spells against him like his filthy father. Page 604 –
Quote:
Harry had dived for his wand; Snape shot a hex at it and it flew away into the darkness and out of sight.
“Kill me then,” panted Harry, who felt no fear at all, but only rage and contempt. “Kill me like you killed him, you coward –“
Harry is on the ground and defenseless, with his wand out of reach just like Dumbledore’s was. I think that Harry stopped thinking about James and had his mind focused on what he had just witnessed on the Tower.


  #44  
Old March 1st, 2007, 3:03 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I believe Harry is referring to Dumbledore, as that was the most recent death at the time. He also calls Snape a coward, prolly because he attacked an un-armed and weak wizard.


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  #45  
Old March 1st, 2007, 3:41 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I've always assumed Harry was talking about James when he said that. It just made sense with the context. I didn't even think of Dumbledore at that moment.


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  #46  
Old April 11th, 2007, 8:56 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

He was refuring to both i think


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  #47  
Old April 11th, 2007, 8:59 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I agree, Harry was probably refering to both of them; probably Dumbledore more.


  #48  
Old April 11th, 2007, 9:01 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

i think it means dumbledore because snape did not technically kill james.


  #49  
Old April 11th, 2007, 9:09 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I assume its Dumblredore because as much as Harry (possibly rightly) blames Snape for his parents' deaths, he knows he didn't deal the death blow and so the refrence makes no sense.

Really though who Harry was talking about is entirely irrelevant... what matters is who Snape interpreted it as, because it drew a huge emotional response from him. Given that Snape (if bad) would feel no remorse and (even if good) still harbors incredible hatred for James, then he wouldn't have had that strong a reaction if he though Harry was talking about his father. It has to be Dumbledore that Snape thinks Harry is refering to.


  #50  
Old April 11th, 2007, 9:58 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I have a interpretation of this scene that I’ve broken down line by line. I’d like to post the whole thing if I may. This is how I came to the question if the accusation Snape reacted to so violently- wasn't really about the word "Coward?" but something much more personal? There is a change in Snape during this scene and I believe on a very subtle level we see the way Harry and Snape have always been at odds. Harry made it personal and Snape reacted to that sentiment. By the end of the scene it’s apparent that Harry hates Snape as much as Voldemort and he’s projected his parents death, as well as Sirius into Snape in the past. I think the “like you killed him” comment could be read either way. Why not both?

So...um... here’s my breakdown forgive the length but I'm quoting the text as I go along.
-------------
When Harry confronts Snape after Dumbledore's death he duels with him feebly. Snape is practically toying with him up to a certain point. He is easily deflecting Harry's spells, and still barking lessons at Harry. He still keeps Harry alive. He doesn't even disarm Harry intentionally.

Now, we assume Snape's last straw was being called a coward, but even earlier on in that same fight, Harry had lobbed the word at Snape to no real effect. When Harry yells at Snape to "Fight back fight back you cowardly- " Snape only sneered at it and turned right back on Harry's own weakness- his Father.

Quote:
"Coward did you call me, Potter?" Shouted Snape. "You're father would never attacked me unless it was four on one, what would you call him I wonder?"
Here Snape turns Harry's silly insult back at him by reminding Harry that his dad was a bully, and "attacked" Snape with friends, never alone. Snape is implying that he was powerful then and is more powerful now, yet he's still toying with Harry. In the next line Snape offers more lessons, chastising Harry, "Blocked again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed Potter!"

Snape then orders the nearby Death Eater "Now come!" He is not only not attacking Harry, he is commanding the others to leave him alone. Snape is shown here to be in charge of the other Death Eaters around him he is leading the pack not just following along.

Then something subtle but significant happens- Harry feels the Cruciatus curse and immediately assumes that it is Snape casting it. This is another penultimate example of where Harry assumes it is Severus Snape trying to kill him at the very moment that Snape is in fact saving Harry's life. This moment is the apex of blame and suspicion that Severus Snape has suffered at the hands of Harry the entire series.

"NO! roared Snape's voice and the pain stopped as suddenly as it had started; ...."


Snape orders the Death Eater that had tortured Harry to leave him alone and gets the rest of the Death Eaters past Harry and out of is way...but Harry keeps coming - solely focused on Snape who is now, Harry sees Snape as "the man he hated as much as he hated Voldemort himself-"

Then another important jab- Harry tries to do "Sectum Sempra-" Snape’s own spell. He is immediately is blocked again but Snape's face changes. He is "no longer sneering or jeering; the blazing flames show a face full of hatred." Snape's demeanor towards Harry gets nasty at this very moment because Harry has made it personal.

"Mustering all his powers of concentration, Harry thought Levi-"
-but Harry didn't even SAY Levicorpus, Harry did a nonverbal spell and was still blocked. Again we see how powerful Snape is. He read the spell even before Harry had a chance to think it.

It's after Harry tries to do "Levicorpus" Snape finally snaps and knocks Potter off his feet, "There was a loud "BANG and Harry was soaring backward, hitting the ground hard again..."[

Harry's wand flies out of his hand and he is defenseless.( I wonder what kind of spell causes a loud BANG?) We should note that if Snape wanted to he could have disarmed Harry from the start - but it's only after Harry uses his the same spell his Father did-after Harry pulled out the Levicorpus he saw in Snape’s Worst Memory his own that Snape finally has enough. Snape approaches Harry and towers over him and discloses that he is the Half Blood Prince and curses Harry's "filthy father" for using his own spells against him.

Now I have to ask - why did Harry- try to use Levicorpus at all? At this moment after so many other more serious spells were easily deflected by Snape- isn’t the LC a totally personal attack? This was the spell he saw in Snape's pensieve- he knew his father had used against him. A spell labeled as a mere "fad" by the others. Wasn't it a bit desperate? Isn't it a bit like insulting someone's mother after all the bullets have run out? It's a personal insult.

Now after all other options are gone and Harry is disarmed, defenseless, and suffers the insult of Snape calling out Harry's "filthy father" -- Harry says this to Snape.

"Kill me then...Kill me kill me like you did him you coward!"


Quote:
"DON'T" screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them- "CALL ME COWARD!"
It's the pause after "DON'T" that I really wonder about. I read it as a pause in Snape's voice. Did Snape start to say something else? Did he almost slip and say too much at that Moment? Or did he read in Harry's mind - as he just did the Levicorpus spell - Harry's true meaning even before Harry did?

Snape whips Harry and slams him into the ground- just before Buck Beak swoops down on him.

I have to say when I first read this line- "Kill me like you did him" I jsut assumed Harry was referring to his own father- accusing Snape of killing the Potters. It wouldn't be past Harry to assume that Snape was just as guilty of his parents death as Voldemort, just as he had assumed Snape was attacking him with the Cruciatus, just as he has assumed all along that Snape was guilty of something- and especially now after he's seen him kill Dumbledore and hated Snape "as much as Voldemort himself."

Here' s the step by step downward spiral of this confrontation
  • Snape Toys with harry, but teaching him still.
  • Harry call Snape a coward, Snape implies that James a coward
  • Then Harry suffers a Cruciatus and assumes it's Snape killing him -
  • Ergo Harry Hates Snape as much as Voldemort and
  • Harry takes it to a personal level with Sectum Sempra and uses Levicorpus - from Snape's Worst Memory
  • Then Snape shows hatred - as Snape is personally insulted.
  • Snape snaps and finishes the scene leaving Harry on the ground.

Harry has now painted Snape all black in one fell swoop of thick "Evil." He's equivocated Snape with Evil. You're just as bad as Voldemort. As much as James Potter hated anything to do with the Dark Arts i.e. Snape - Harry now hates Snape as well.

I could read from this that the real cause of Snape's rage and "pain" in this scene was maybe not just the taunt of being called a “coward,” as much as the accusation that Harry seems to make in that moment, that he killed James Potter- and Lily. Something Snape himself could feel guilty for on some level already. Along side that accusation is the fact that all along for 6 years no matter how many times Snape tried to pay off his "lief debt" to Harry- now matter how powerful and intelligent Snape obviously is and helpful "The Prince" has been -Harry has always refused to respect him, thank him, or see him as an equal. Harry is echoing his Father's hatred of Snape in this moment and can not see anything in Snape but a guilty, ugly, and now evil man.


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Last edited by Bscorp; April 11th, 2007 at 10:01 pm.
  #51  
Old April 11th, 2007, 10:01 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Given the moment and the context, I think the only "him" on Harry's mind was Dumbledore. He's half in shock at what he's witnessed, and I don't think James was who he thought of. . . .

Besides, by blabbing about the half-heard prophecy to Voldie, the person whose life has been put in jeopardy is Harry himself, not James. James and Lily's death must be blamed on Peter "Wormtail" Pettigrew. No matter how much Snape hated James, so far, I don't think he's directly linked to his death. (Yes, I could be wrong. We'll see in "Deathly Hallows" if Snape is more directly involved in the Potters' murder than simply being a DE.)

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  #52  
Old April 11th, 2007, 10:09 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

To what extent does Harry blame Snape for his parents' deaths?
He blames Snape as an indirect cause of his parents death. He wouldn't be seeking revenge on Snape as much as say Wormtail but he does seem to blame him to some extent.

Will this interfere at all with Harry's mission to collect the remaining Horcruxes?
No I don't think Harry will be actively looking for Snape, the Horcrux hunt it too important. I think when he comes face to face with Snape, which will happen some manner of revenge will be taken


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  #53  
Old April 11th, 2007, 10:14 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

The question is not whether or not Snape "killed" Harry's Dad but whether or not Harry would deem Snape as the guilty of his Parents deaths.

Harry has said as much about Snape in the past when he went off about Snape telling Voldemort the prophecy. He blamed Snape for it all.


So I think Harry could be thinking or feeling the rage of of BOTH his parents death AND Dumbledore's at that very moment. It's an emotional moment Harry and Snape are both enraged and all of it comes together in one accusation.


  #54  
Old April 11th, 2007, 10:18 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
Then something subtle but significant happens- Harry feels the Cruciatus curse and immediately assumes that it is Snape casting it. This is another penultimate example of where Harry assumes it is Severus Snape trying to kill him at the very moment that Snape is in fact saving Harry's life. This moment is the apex of blame and suspicion that Severus Snape has suffered at the hands of Harry the entire series.
The only time I can think of in which Harry thinks Snape is trying to kill him is in PS/SS.
Harry has been hit with the cruciatus curse enough times to recognize it. He knows that whoever cast the curse was not trying to kill him.

What Harry assumes is that he is chasing a murderer. That is why he continues to attack until he is disarmed and Snape vanishes. Any hero of any book would do the same. Harry would do the same to anyone who killed Dumbledore, especially an unarmed Dumbledore.



Last edited by SusanBones; April 11th, 2007 at 10:41 pm.
  #55  
Old April 11th, 2007, 10:19 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

up to a point I thought you meant the other way around. \

That Snape intrepated Harry's words as a reference to Snape killing James. I could believe that -but judging the circumstances (DD just died) I have to disagree.


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  #56  
Old April 11th, 2007, 10:22 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Harry was so shocked at Dumbledore's death that he didn't think about his father at the time. He meant Dumbledore


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  #57  
Old April 11th, 2007, 10:28 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Put yourself in Harry's shoes....

Harry had just gone through one of the worst nights of his life along the side of Dumbledore, and then what does Snape do? HE KILLS HIM! If I was Harry, I wouldn't have been really listening to anything Snape would have to say. I'd just have Dumbledore's face branded into my brain.

So just because Snape brought James up doesn't mean that Harry was paying any attention to him. He was only thinking of Dumbledore at that moment.


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  #58  
Old April 12th, 2007, 12:48 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Godric View Post
I have heard the arguement that this was referring to James before but I just don't buy it. People say that Harry couldn't be talking about Dumbledore because Snape had just presented a new subject - James, therefore, Harry has to be talking about him. It just doesn't make sense that Harry would be leaving Dumbledore's murder chasing Snape and thinking about his father.
Ture, I don't think James would pop into Harry's head right after Dumbledore died.


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  #59  
Old April 12th, 2007, 12:54 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I believe that Harry was referring to Dumbledore, it seems out of place to suddenly start referring to James as 'him' when Dumbledore is the one who died most recently.

And, whether Harry meant Dumbledore or not, I think that Snape assumes this is who Harry meant, as seen by him reaction afterward.


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Old April 12th, 2007, 5:48 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I always thought that Harry was referring to Dumbledore. Dumbledore's death was extremely fresh in his mind and he was chasing after Snape because he had just killed Dumbledore. I'm pretty sure that was the only thing Harry was thinking about. He was in shock; I don't think the subject could have been changed so quickly.


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