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"Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.



 
 
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  #61  
Old April 12th, 2007, 7:18 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
I have a interpretation of this scene that I’ve broken down line by line. I’d like to post the whole thing if I may.
Wow! Nice work, though I disagree with your conclusion. Some comments and suggestions below...

Quote:
Then another important jab- Harry tries to do "Sectum Sempra-" Snape’s own spell. He is immediately is blocked again but Snape's face changes. He is "no longer sneering or jeering; the blazing flames show a face full of hatred." Snape's demeanor towards Harry gets nasty at this very moment because Harry has made it personal.
Another possible factor is that Snape is by now aware that Harry knows exactly what that spell does. In other words, he just saved Harry from Crucio, and now Harry is trying to kill him.

Quote:
It's after Harry tries to do "Levicorpus" Snape finally snaps and knocks Potter off his feet, "There was a loud "BANG and Harry was soaring backward, hitting the ground hard again..."[

Harry's wand flies out of his hand and he is defenseless.( I wonder what kind of spell causes a loud BANG?)
I believe Snape has not lost it yet. First, we do know a spell that causes a bang, and may throw the victim back: Expelliarmus. For example:

PoA
"Expelliarmus!" he yelled -- except that his wasn't the only voice that shouted. There was a blast that made the door rattle on its hinges;


Snape would not have disarmed Harry earlier for practical reasons - the other Death Eaters were still around and this would leave Harry defenseless. In my opinion he could have, he may have wanted tio, but he waited until the others had left.

Quote:
Now I have to ask - why did Harry- try to use Levicorpus at all?
I think Harry chose it because it is a nonverbal, the only one he can, at this point, reliably perform. It was not enough, though, Snape still saw it coming and blocked it.
(Of course, Harry has no clue Snape invented it at this point.)

Quote:

"Kill me then...Kill me kill me like you did him you coward!"


I have to say when I first read this line- "Kill me like you did him" I jsut assumed Harry was referring to his own father- accusing Snape of killing the Potters.
My first, middle, and final reaction is that 'him' means Dumbledore to both participants. He was just killed. Also, he was actually killed by Snape (unlike the Potters). If Harry were levelling the accusation about the Potters, he ought to include his mother, which 'him' does not. Finally, and to me most importantly, 'like you did him' carries the meaning 'in the same manner as you did him'. Harry, as he speaks those words, is affected by the Crucio, and unarmed. Just like Dumbledore was weakened by the green potion and disarmed when Snape killed him.

Quote:
I could read from this that the real cause of Snape's rage and "pain" in this scene was maybe not just the taunt of being called a “coward,” as much as the accusation that Harry seems to make in that moment, that he killed James Potter- and Lily. Something Snape himself could feel guilty for on some level already.
I also don't think coward was the accusation that pushed Snape over the edge - I think it was the implication that he murdered Dumbledore.


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  #62  
Old April 12th, 2007, 8:57 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Harry had already called Snape a coward before in the same fight, and Snape just shouts back "Coward did you call me, Potter? Your father would never attack me unless it was four on one, what would you call him, I wonder?" so its not the word 'coward' that gets to Snape.

I've always thought Harry meant James by 'him.' Snape had just said "And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you?" to which Harry responds, "Kill me like you killed him." The context makes it look like Harry's talking about James. It could be he's meaning both James and Dumbledore by 'him' though. Technically, Harry does now consider Snape to be responsible for his parents' death.


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  #63  
Old April 12th, 2007, 10:34 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I've flipped through the thread, and I must admit, I don't see enough reason to suggest Harry didn't mean Dumbledore. Wht would be the significance of a hiden reference to James? I'm particularly inclined to think it was Dumbledore, because Harry shouts it, full of rage, when he is left wandless and defenceless "as Dumbledore had been" - being in the same situation, without a wand to throw his revengeful rage at Snape, he is left to shout at him to do what he just did to another unarmed man.

We should also take Harry's emotional state into consideration - he's just seen Dubledore die - a sight as horrible as is unbelievable, and he's under its enormous influence - it's just illogical that he would make a comment about his father all of a sudden.

And there's another thing that I find illogical - why would Harry leave his mother out of that accusation? When he talks about Snape delivering the prophecy, he always says "he told Voldemort to go after my mum and dad!" - and now, he's only responsible for his father's death? I see no reason for Harry to leave Lily out here.

It just makes no sense for it NOT to be Dumbledore, and it doesn't make much sense for it to be James, so I think he did indeed mean Dumbledore by that comment. It's the most natural conclusion, and there's no evidence against it.


  #64  
Old April 12th, 2007, 12:36 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Dumbledore has just been killed by Snape. I just don't think that Harry is thinking of another death at this point. Dumbledore's death is just to fresh.


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  #65  
Old April 12th, 2007, 2:18 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I think that Harry was referring to James. Snape was taunting Harry about James just a moment before, when Harry first called him a coward. Harry taunting Snape to kill him like he killed James was what brought on such a rage. Snape realised then that Harry knew that he was responsible for James's death. Besides, Snape didn't see Harry at all until then, and Harry was under the cloak on top of the tower.


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  #66  
Old April 12th, 2007, 3:24 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
Snape realised then that Harry knew that he was responsible for James's death. Besides, Snape didn't see Harry at all until then, and Harry was under the cloak on top of the tower.
Taking your second comment, would not "Snape realized then that Harry knew he was Dumbledore's killer"? make just as much sense?


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  #67  
Old April 12th, 2007, 3:57 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I think Harry was talking about Dumbledore. I think that was the only thing on his mind.He wanted to stop Snape and not let him get away.


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  #68  
Old April 12th, 2007, 4:22 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
I think that Harry was referring to James. Snape was taunting Harry about James just a moment before, when Harry first called him a coward. Harry taunting Snape to kill him like he killed James was what brought on such a rage. Snape realised then that Harry knew that he was responsible for James's death. Besides, Snape didn't see Harry at all until then, and Harry was under the cloak on top of the tower.

Ultimately Voldemort was responsible for the Potter's Death and no one else. Snape tipped him off to a prophecy before he even knew who it was about and until we know exactly what happened that night we can't assume Snape was even there. So Snape is not "responsible." But Snape could have inferred that Harry meant James- as well as Dumbledore - even if Harry didn't at the time.


My point is that Snape felt remorse for it, and on some level maybe even blames himself even if he didn't kill them. And I do think Harry blames Snape for his parent's death just as much as if Snape had pulled the trigger (so to speak) and now he equivocates Snape with Voldemort. That's why Snape appears to be "in pain."


  #69  
Old April 14th, 2007, 10:12 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I think that Harry was referring to James, because Snape had just made a comment about James calling him filfthy and it reminded Harry of how he had found out that night also that Snape had told Voldemort about the prophecy. ( perhaps he called him a coward also too because he told Voldemort of the prophecy instead of Snape just killing his parents himself.. Voldemort had to do it... ?)

It is definitely questioniable though.. but I think it's just one of those things where you have to interpret it as you want.. I don't think there really is a real answer.


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  #70  
Old April 14th, 2007, 10:50 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I don't think there can be any question that he was talking about Dumbledore. I understand what you were saying about the way the sentences are laid out, but there has never been any indication that Snape killed James - regardless of the fact that Snape was the person who overheard the prophecy. Plus, James' death, while tragic, doesn't exactly weigh on Harry's mind on a daily basis. I think after seeing Dumbledore killed, it would be strange for Harry to think about his father, who he never really knew, and have had lots of time to come to grips with his death.


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  #71  
Old April 16th, 2007, 3:59 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Dumbledore, definitely. Dumbledore had just died so HIS death was what was on Harry's mind, not his father's. He was referring to their both being unarmed.


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  #72  
Old April 16th, 2007, 4:11 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Perhaps Harry wasn't thinking of either one of them explicitly. Snape had killed Dumbledore, and earlier that night Harry had learned that Snape had led to the death of James. So Snape "killed" two people that Harry loved... maybe he was thinking of both Dumbledore and James when he said "kill me like you killed him".

But I doubt it was that complicated. It was a phrase shouted in anger, wasn't it? Harry hadn't contemplated much the fact that Snape led to James's death--it was a shock and then a bunch of horcrux-y stuff happened, which probably drove it out of his mind. I think he was caught up in the moment, and was referring to Dumbledore. Later he will realize that Snape also "killed" James. But at that time, he was talking about Dumbledore.


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  #73  
Old April 16th, 2007, 4:29 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Harry blame's Snape for the death of all those closest to him. His parent's death is a result of Snape's overhearing the prophecy, Sirius' death a result of Snape goading him about his self imposed house arrest, and Dumbledore's death.

I agree with the idea that the 'him' Harry refers to in this quote is Dumbledore, because it is so fresh on Harry's mind, and Harry witnessed it, but in the end it seems rather superfluous, ultimately. Harry sees Snape as culpable for the deaths of four people he loved most, and his anger and urge for revenge are going to play a major role in Deathly Hallows.


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  #74  
Old April 16th, 2007, 4:31 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeiaShadow View Post
maybe he was thinking of both Dumbledore and James when he said "kill me like you killed him".
If that were the case, he probably would have said, "Kill me like you killed them...".

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeiaShadow View Post
Later he will realize that Snape also "killed" James.
I think he came to that realization the moment he found out that Snape was the one who told Voldemort about the Prophecy though.


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  #75  
Old April 16th, 2007, 4:49 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
I think that Harry was referring to James. Snape was taunting Harry about James just a moment before, when Harry first called him a coward. Harry taunting Snape to kill him like he killed James was what brought on such a rage. Snape realised then that Harry knew that he was responsible for James's death. Besides, Snape didn't see Harry at all until then, and Harry was under the cloak on top of the tower.
I think he might have infered that Harry knew by then, either that he figured it out or he, like Draco, noticed the two wands and remembered Harry's invisibility cloak. I think he was probably refering to Dumbledore, but it's hard to say. It could have been intentionally ambiguous, I guess; the fact that he had just mentioned James makes it perfectly possible he was the 'he' in question, and Harry knew Snape was in a way responsible, but I think he still had Dumbledore in mind instead. Of course, Snape could have been unaware of either or both the fact that Harry knew he had killed DD and that he overheard the prophecy, and he could have taken it either way also, regardless of what Harry meant.


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  #76  
Old April 16th, 2007, 4:57 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

I think he knew who he was referring to (Dumbledore) because of one huge similarity-- Harry was wandless, just like Dumbledore had been. That's why Harry called him a coward in the first place-- he'd killed Dumbledore when he was most vulnerable.


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  #77  
Old April 16th, 2007, 5:01 am
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Well I most certainly believe that Harry is referring to Dumbledore. Imagine this:

Harry has never had any parents because Voldemort had killed them. Then, when Harry finds out that Sirius is not responcible for his parent's death, he is overwhelmed by the fact that Sirius is his Godfather. He now has someone to write to and to confide in. Then, in OOTP, Sirius fell through the veil. Harry was left in despair because Sirius was the closest thing to a father that he ever had.

When Snape killed Dumbledore in HBP, imagine how Harry felt, he was now left with nobody. Ron and Hermione have their own theories about things, as do all young friends. Harry really couldn't rely on them too much because of this. They didn't stop to think that Harry did not just have a terrible grudge against Draco Malfoy. If they had heard all of the things that Harry had, and if they had been through all of the things he has been through, their perception of things might have been different.

None of them really had a huge reason to hate Voldemort, because their families have never been separated quite like Harry's. Harry is extremely difficult to relate to, and Dumbledore was doing just that. He was being the second fatherly figure Harry had had since, his parents were murdered. Now that Snape had killed him, Harry was completely alone. Nobody could know how he felt, because nobody had understood Harry like Dumbledore and Sirius had.


I also think that it was extremely foolish of Harry to tell Snape that he knew Snape had killed Dumbledore. When Snape was taking the Unbreakable Vow, he had flinched slightly when Narcissa asked him to carry out Draco's duty if he should fail. I think he hadn't expected this, and if he had, he would not have taken the vow. Later in the story, we find out that Snape is having second thoughts on being Dumbledore's spy. That night, I think Dumbledore asked Snape if he had truely taken the Unbreakable Vow that Harry had accused him of taking. Snape probably might have said yes. (Nobody knows because this is just my theory) Dumbledore could have told Snape to do whatever the vow told him to. I think Dumbledore knew that Snape had to kill him. Not wanting to risk Severus or Draco's life, he knew that his life would have to be sacrificed for them to live.

Harry was not supposed to be with Dumbledore when he was murdered. Maybe, if Harry hadn't told everyone that Snape murdered Dumbledore, Snape could come back to him with a true story of waht happened, and why he had to do it. Also, now eveyone knows that Harry was with Dumbledore when he was murdered, including the Death Eaters. Snape probably would have told them, and Snape probably also knew that Dumbledore was searching for Voldemort's Horcruxes. Snape could have told Voldemort about this, and Voldemort would know that Harry would try to track down the rest of them. Voldemort would try to see to it that Harry was killed in the attempt, making things more difficult for the already complex agenda of Harry's.


  #78  
Old April 30th, 2007, 12:35 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Is the question really, not of whom is Harry talking about? But rather whom Snape believes he is talking about?

The whole ambiguity of the situation only matters, in my humble opinion, because the answer, Dumbledore or James, colours Snape reaction.


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  #79  
Old April 30th, 2007, 1:18 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

When I read HBP, all three times, I thought he meant DD. I agree that there's ambiguity in the writing and that because Snape mentions James it could well mean that.

However, I think I'm going to stick with my original thoughts, simply because Harry has spent an evening with DD. He has fed DD poison, faced inferi, seen the dark mark, seen his friends in combat with the thought that maybe one of them might be dead.

More so, he was petrified on the tower by DD so had no choice but to witness all the events unfurl...in slow motion.

From the minute Snape entered the tower to the minute he apparates, I think Harry is intent on DD's revenge.

I think he'll start to voice the thoughts of Snape killing Sirius, James and DD in Deathly Hallows, but I do think he still meant DD in this scene.


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  #80  
Old April 30th, 2007, 3:30 pm
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Re: "Kill me like you killed him" - Dumbledore?...Or James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DobbysBludger View Post
The whole ambiguity of the situation only matters, in my humble opinion, because the answer, Dumbledore or James, colours Snape reaction.
I too think it was Dumbledore, for Harry was poisoned by the images of Dumbledore's death and he was too full of hatred to think of a thing so far-fetched and comprehensive.


 
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