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Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 24th, 2007, 3:32 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Itscoldincanada View Post
If DD defeated Grindelwald and if Tom Riddle was in awe of his mentors abilities it could explain why he would be afraid of DD after that.
OOOOO yes you are absolutely right. Definitely!

Because I don't think Voldie would be afraid of somebody just because they were really powerful. But if DD slayed somebody that he thought was super powerful, like Grindlewald, then he would definitely consider DD to be even more powerful then his mentor was, and be very afraid of DD.


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  #22  
Old March 24th, 2007, 3:33 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

My only problem with Grindelwald teaching Tom Riddle about horcruxes is that by giving Riddle that info, he'd effectively anoint a successor. If Grindelwald was the big bad dark lord that we think he is, then I doubt he'd willingly give that info to anyone, because they could then figure out how to unseat him.

But...this doesn't preclude Riddle finding it out from Grindelwald. The information may not have been knowingly given. Tom Riddle was a brilliant young man, and he may have found out what he needed to know without Grindelwald knowing it.


  #23  
Old March 24th, 2007, 3:39 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

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Originally Posted by chparadise View Post
My only problem with Grindelwald teaching Tom Riddle about horcruxes is that by giving Riddle that info, he'd effectively anoint a successor. If Grindelwald was the big bad dark lord that we think he is, then I doubt he'd willingly give that info to anyone, because they could then figure out how to unseat him.

But...this doesn't preclude Riddle finding it out from Grindelwald. The information may not have been knowingly given. Tom Riddle was a brilliant young man, and he may have found out what he needed to know without Grindelwald knowing it.
Well, if Grindlewald was the "big bad dark lord that we think he is", then he would probably brag a bit about how big and bad and dark he is. And it would be easy for him to say something like "oh yeah, and I have two horcruxes..." to a group of people sitting at his feet (I have a mental image of Slughorn with the dozen-or-so boys sitting on lower, harder chairs than him, from the memory Harry was supposed to get--it could be something like that), and Tom Riddle would see the older ones go "ooo" and see them all in awe of that achievement, and wonder what horcruxes are, and if he interrogates Grindelwald then he probably won't be told because he is so young. So he asks Slughorn, someone he knows is powerful but a bit foolish and simple.

Again, Tom Riddle could have just heard Grindelwald mentioning it to another person. You know, eavesdropped. After all, Harry finds out things by eavesdropping plenty of times, right?


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Bean turned to her, put his arms around her, and wept into her shoulder. He had grown, to stand tall enough for that. ---Shadow of the Hegemon, Orson Scott Card
  #24  
Old March 24th, 2007, 3:42 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Grindelwald might have known his demise would come soon and might want to pass his knowledge on to someone worthy enough of it.


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  #25  
Old March 24th, 2007, 3:43 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chparadise View Post
My only problem with Grindelwald teaching Tom Riddle about horcruxes is that by giving Riddle that info, he'd effectively anoint a successor. If Grindelwald was the big bad dark lord that we think he is, then I doubt he'd willingly give that info to anyone, because they could then figure out how to unseat him.

But...this doesn't preclude Riddle finding it out from Grindelwald. The information may not have been knowingly given. Tom Riddle was a brilliant young man, and he may have found out what he needed to know without Grindelwald knowing it.
Good point. Tom really could have turned against his own mentor later, knowing of how much power he has now. Like said Tom was always someone who liked to work alone and trusted nobody.


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Old March 24th, 2007, 3:58 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

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Originally Posted by TENSHI View Post
Good point. Tom really could have turned against his own mentor later, knowing of how much power he has now.
Yup, very true.

This is strongly reminding me of that part in Episode III (Star Wars, people, haven't you noticed yet that I'm obsessed with two things at once?) when Chancellor Palpatine tells Anakin the story of that Sith lord that taught his apprentice everything he knew and then was killed by his apprentice. Funnily enough, there was a resisting-death factor in that story, too. The Sith lord knew how to stop people from dying, and then he taught his apprentice and, ironically, didn't see his own death coming. This is sounding a lot like the idea that Tom Riddle turned against Grindelwald, no? Except that, if Tom talked to him before talking to Slughorn, Grindelwald didn't teach Tom anything about horcruxes besides their name, or, if Tom talked to him after Slughorn, then perhaps he learned the finer parts of the process (how to do it, exactly) from Grindelwald. What I mean to say is, these stories are very, very similar, except that Tom Riddle wasn't the one who killed Grindelwald. Unless he was the one that tipped Dumbledore off which led to Grindelwald's death....?

OK I'll stop discussing Star Wars and the movie-everyone-hated-except-me (a.k.a. Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith) now. But the similarity was too good not to point out. No, I do not think that JKR put that in on purpose. Was it really put in? I'm building on so much conjecture here, I don't know where the "true" facts end and the implied and assumed facts start...


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"Is that what you tell yourself? There's no shame here, Bean. There's only love. And that's why I belong here--with the other lonely girls who gave their hearts to you."
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Last edited by LeiaShadow; March 24th, 2007 at 4:02 am.
  #27  
Old March 24th, 2007, 5:59 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Heh, I think you identified the subconscious source of my contention leia . My sources for my contention were DD's statement to Harry about tyrants always being on the lookout for their successor...and, on a subconscious level, Palpatine having killed his mentor and then he was later killed by his own protoge. Thanks for alerting me, so to say, about the other inspiration .


  #28  
Old March 24th, 2007, 6:25 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chparadise View Post
Heh, I think you identified the subconscious source of my contention leia . My sources for my contention were DD's statement to Harry about tyrants always being on the lookout for their successor...and, on a subconscious level, Palpatine having killed his mentor and then he was later killed by his own protoge. Thanks for alerting me, so to say, about the other inspiration .
Hey, you've got it exactly! And, guess what, I never even remembered Palpatine getting killed by Darth Vader...time for me to connect the new movies to the old.

Thanks! And I'd forgotten about DD's statement about tyrants. It's exactly what I was thinking of, tyrants looking out for their successors and such. I love thinking on the same level as somebody else.


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He turned to her, tears in his eyes. "This is my place of shame. I worked very hard to make sure your name would not be here."
"Is that what you tell yourself? There's no shame here, Bean. There's only love. And that's why I belong here--with the other lonely girls who gave their hearts to you."
Bean turned to her, put his arms around her, and wept into her shoulder. He had grown, to stand tall enough for that. ---Shadow of the Hegemon, Orson Scott Card
  #29  
Old March 24th, 2007, 3:23 pm
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Just a note - this really doesn't fit timeline too well.

Tom was a fifth year in '42-'43 (50 years before bk2). So his final year at Hogwarts was '44-'45. WWII ends in Aug'45 (supposedly with the defeat of Grindelwald).

So, Tom needed to find Grindelwald sometime between mid-June'45 and August'45 in the midst of a war and ask about horcrux making (IF one believes he did not know how to make a horcrux when he asked Slughorn)

Now admittedly, Tom was 17 during the summer before. An adult by wizarding standards. Whether this allowed him to leave the orphanage before 18 (adult in the muggle world) is unknown.

However, Voldy says he 'left' the orphange to kill his father (and grandparents). That was summer '43 and he would have been 16. Unclear whether he ever returned to the orphanage after that or not. 'Left' could mean left early that summer and went straight to Hogwarts afterwards. IF he was then 17 for the next summer he MIGHT not have needed to go back to the orphanage.

IF so, then he would have needed to be taken in by some friend's family (or supported monetarily by his friends) - since he has not been mentioned as having worked until he took the job at B&B

Note: according to Dumbledore (HBP20) Tom applied immediately upon graduation for the DADA position and was turned down. "the next thing the staff knew," he was working at B&B. That would SEEM to mean very soon after graduation. Which would pretty well mess up the chance to go find Grindelwald.

Leaving really only the summer of '43-'44 as the only possibility - approximately a 2-1/2 month window for an English wizard who was attending Hogwarts (home to Grindelwald's enemy) to find Grindelwald and learn from him. IF we use Slughorn's memory as proof that Tom didn't know how to make a horcrux, then he certainly didn't learn it from Grindelwald.

I'm not convinced that Tom did NOT know how to make a horcrux in that memory, but instead was 'pretending' - trying to get the real info he wanted - was it possible to make more than one. However, I think it unlikely because it tipped his hand to Slughorn. But again - perhaps he was unsure that he had done the first horcrux correctly?

It is unclear (I think) whether Tom created a horcrux before leaving Hogwarts. He certainly seems to have done so before leaving B&B as he is slightly affected appearance-wise in the memory from Hokey.

My personal favorite theory on this is that Tom found the info for making Horcruxes somehow among some heirloom books of Orion's or Walburga's. It might explain how Regulus was able to figure out Voldy had made a horcrux. It might also give us somewhere for Voldy to have lived between 6th and 7th year (IF he didn't return to the orphanage once he was a wizarding adult)

Note also that Walburga was 2 years older than Voldy while Orion was apparently 2 years younger than Voldy. IF the book was found at #12 (and still around later for Regulus to find) then I think it was Walburga who would have offered him a home for the summer (mirror to Sirius???) as #12 SEEMS to have been HER home, not her husband's


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Last edited by hwyla; March 24th, 2007 at 3:29 pm.
  #30  
Old March 24th, 2007, 6:57 pm
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Great post, hwyla! I hadn't read that theory about the books at #12, but I might have to seek out a thread on that specifically. That could give a whole new dimension to Bellatrix as well.

There are parts of this theory about Riddle being mentored by Grindelwald that I do find intriguing, though I assumed Riddle's earliest knowledge of horcruxes - before even asking Slughorn - was probably from visiting shops in Knockturn Alley, possibly Borgin & Burkes, possibly others we don't know specifically. Books that wouldn't be found in even in the Restricted Section of Hogwarts' library. But I think it's possible that he might have studied writings about Grindelwald, or just heard rumors of what he might be up to - just as Voldemort is written and whispered about - and decided to try to seek him out. Once he was 17 and able to apparate, if he had an approximation of Grindelwald's whereabouts, he could go on brief trips seeking him, or seeking information from his followers, while still having a day job at Borgin & Burkes. But JKR once said about Dumbledore - I don't have the exact quote, forgive me - but that he was largely self-taught, even though he'd been to school, he'd sought out knowledge on his own. I think Riddle would have been much the same, but drawn to the dark arts. He refused help from Dumbledore even on his very first trip to Diagon Alley - he could have been enticed into Knockturn Alley very easily. But because of his solitary nature, I don't see him being a follower of Grindelwald - at least, not a faithful follower. Is it possible that he provided Dumbledore - directly or indirectly - with some piece of crucial information that led to Grindelwald's defeat, hoping that he might gain from it - or at least get another dark lord out of the way without having to personally risk his own neck? He would have had at least one horcrux, maybe more, he'd killed all three Riddles and been responsible for Hepzibah Smith's death by ordering Hokey to poison her, but he probably didn't have seven - why risk it if DD is already on the case?

I think Riddle could have intimate knowledge of the manner in which Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald - "We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom." Could this be what Dumbledore meant? JKR has certainly strongly hinted that we will find out much more about Dumbledore's past - was this comment an allusion to Grindelwald, a personal loss, or something else?


  #31  
Old March 24th, 2007, 7:12 pm
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Dumbledore hints on a connection between Voldemort and Grindewald.

Chamber of Secrets, Dumbledore:

Quote:
He disappeared after leaving the school ... traveled far and wide ... sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable.
Dumbledore said our kind. Wich means he was refering to himself, his kind.
The wizarding kind. Present; Voldemort is the Darkest wizard around. But before him there was someone else - Grindewald. In those days, when he was powerful and began the wars, wizarding kind would have called him the darkest Wizard ergo "the very worst of our kind."


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  #32  
Old March 24th, 2007, 8:29 pm
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

That makes alot of sense. I can see it happening.


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  #33  
Old March 24th, 2007, 8:35 pm
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

I don't think that they actually knew each other, but I'm sure that Tom got some ideas from Grindelwald.


  #34  
Old March 24th, 2007, 8:37 pm
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

I can see it happening but I don't know how much knowledge Grindlewald could have imparted on the young Riddle, especially if Dumbledore was on the verge of destroying him at that point. But if he did, is that how Dumbledore first heard about Riddles horcruxes? Did he maybe fight against Riddle and Grindlewald?


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  #35  
Old March 24th, 2007, 8:48 pm
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

I believe that Tom Riddle began leaving the orphanage in the summers, early in his school career. The orphanage would not be sorry to see him leave, and I doubt that they would have made much of an effort to keep him at the orphanage. Therefore, during the summers (as early as after his first year at Hogwarts), Riddle sought out Grindelwald. He eventually found him, and Grindelwald began teaching Riddle everything he needed/wanted to know in order to become the next great Dark wizard (I believe that Grindelwald was reluctant, at first, to mentor Riddle, but after Riddle proved himself he was eager to. Grindelwald most likely knew that his demise was near, and was therefore eager to train a successor). I now believe that Riddle killed his father and grandparents the summer before his sixth year, and then went to Grindelwald. Riddle had come across the term 'Horcruxes' during his reading at Hogwarts, but wanted to know more. Thus, he asked/persuaded Grindelwald to reveal the information about making Horcruxes. Knowing how to create Horcruxes (due to Grindelwald's teaching), Riddle returned to Hogwarts. Although I am contradicting my earlier post, I believe that Riddle did know how to make Horcruxes when he interrogated Slughorn (simply based on theory - my earlier post was based on canon). Therefore, before he made the diary a Horcrux, he wanted to ask Slughorn if he could make more than one Horcrux (to make certain that the diary would not be his first and last Horcrux). Receiving an acceptable answer from Slughorn, Riddle then made the diary a Horcrux (doing what Grindelwald told him to do), and thus planned to make more.

With this theory, Riddle would certainly have enough time to find Grindelwald, persuade Grindelwald to mentor him, learn about Horcruxes, and make his first Horcrux before the summer after his sixth year. He would thus have one more summer to meet with Grindelwald, but Dumbledore, retrieving the memory from Slughorn, saw what it contained (he guessed that Riddle knew how to make Horcruxes, and he also guessed that Grindelwald was the only one who could have given him that information), and then was hurried to defeat Grindelwald before he could do any further damage (teach/tell Riddle anything more).

As I said in post #9:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead
It could also be this reason why Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald - he did not want another powerful Dark wizard in Grindelwald's place. However, Dumbledore would have been too slow to defeat Grindelwald, for Grindelwald would have already taught Riddle all he knew.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoeticHeart
Chamber of Secrets, Dumbledore:

Quote:
He disappeared after leaving the school ... traveled far and wide ... sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable.
Dumbledore said our kind. Wich means he was refering to himself, his kind.
The wizarding kind. Present; Voldemort is the Darkest wizard around. But before him there was someone else - Grindewald. In those days, when he was powerful and began the wars, wizarding kind would have called him the darkest Wizard ergo "the very worst of our kind."
A very good catch, PoeticHeart! I agree that "the very worst of our kind" would certainly refer to Grindelwald (after all, the Blacks were not the worst of wizards), and thus backs this theory up quite nicely.


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Last edited by MrSleepyHead; March 24th, 2007 at 8:51 pm.
  #36  
Old March 24th, 2007, 8:50 pm
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

woah MrSleepyHead...thats a really brilliant idea.


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  #37  
Old March 24th, 2007, 11:48 pm
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Re: Grindelwald

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Originally Posted by joannahex View Post
I think this idea makes some sense.We don't know who Riddle learned from after Hogwarts,why not Grindelwald.Could this also be why Tom hated Dumble dore so much,because he killed his mentor Grindelwald?

Could be. However, I don't think that was the only reason Voldemort hated Dumbledore. Remeber when Harry went into Dumbledore's pensieve and seen when Voldemort was applying for the Dark Arts job, he could've started hating him long beofre that. Also, Voldemort or Tom said that Dumbledore had never liked him, so his hatred began there.

Also, Grindelwald would be the perfect candidate to teach Voldemort or Tom, how to create the Horcuxes. Then when Dumbledore defeated him, Voldemort was exactly sure how to create them, so he went to Slughorn for advice.


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  #38  
Old March 24th, 2007, 11:54 pm
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Re: Dumbledore hints on a connection between Voldemort and Grindewald.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoeticHeart View Post
Chamber of Secrets, Dumbledore:

Quote: He disappeared after leaving the school ... traveled far and wide ... sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable.

Dumbledore said our kind. Wich means he was refering to himself, his kind. The wizarding kind. Present; Voldemort is the Darkest wizard around. But before him there was someone else - Grindewald. In those days, when he was powerful and began the wars, wizarding kind would have called him the darkest Wizard ergo "the very worst of our kind."
Very good catch. I agree that the "very worst of our kind" is referred to a bad wizard and Grindelwald was one at that time. That would fit.


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  #39  
Old March 24th, 2007, 11:58 pm
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

I agree that Tom Riddle's dislike of DD was more than just possibly that DD defeated his mentor. I think Riddle's wariness or dislike of DD started very soon after he got to Hogwarts, when he probably noticed DD keeping a close eye on him. DD securing Hagrid the gameskeeper job after Riddle framed Hagrid for the CoS opening probably sealed the deal for Riddle's dislike of DD, since he (RIddle) then knew that DD saw through him. He (Riddle) probably also identified DD as potentially the biggest obstacle to him becoming the big bad dark lord (to quote myself), since Riddle was smart enough to know that even though Dippett was the Headmaster and Slughorn his head of house, DD was the most powerful wizard or witch at Hogwarts at the time.

I tend to think that the orphanage didn't care much whether TR left during the summer months. He probably wandered far and wide during his summers, especially towards the end of his Hogwarts career. It'd be interesting to know; however, if DD knew this even prior to Riddle leaving Hogwarts. DD may have been trying to keep an eye on TR even while outside Hogwarts, but it's an open question as to whether he would have had the ability to at least know if TR wasn't at the orphanage, since it wouldn't be as simple as knocking on their door and asking.


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Old March 25th, 2007, 4:43 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

The problem with assuming that "...He disappeared after leaving the school ... traveled far and wide ... sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable. means Voldy associated with Grindelwald is that it all takes place AFTER Tom worked at B&B, killed Hezipah Smith (sp?) and stole her heirlooms. Grindelwald was surely defeated well before this.

We are unsure of the exact date Tom disappeared - however we do know the very earliest he could have made his reappearance. He disappeared for 10 years, but when he came back he applied for the DADA job. Albus was Headmaster by then - so at the very earliest he asked for the job in Dec'56 (the month Minerva was hired to teach Transfiguration). IF that's the earliest and he was missing for 10 years then supposedly he would not have disappeared before Dec'46. And WWII ended in Aug'45 - more than a year before.

So Albus' quote about Tom associating with the worst of our kind when he disappeared for 10 years cannot be referring to Grindelwald as he had already been defeated over a year before.

And - of course - 'worst of our kind' does not need to be limited to one person (as in the very worst wizard), but could just as easily mean multiple 'dark' wizards.



As to Tom leaving the orphanage during summers - the problem would be where would he live - he didn't have money to life on and he didn't have a job. The big risk would be what if the orphanage wouldn't take him back and he had to live on the street? Considering Sirius was taken in by the Potters, I don't see this as insurrmountable. But it must be considered.

The summer after his 5th year he certainly lived at the orphanage for at least part of the summer - that was the whole point of framing Hagrid, Dippet couldn't allow him to stay over the summer. Also - Albus tells us he 'left' the orphange - just doesn't specify whether he left it for the summer or forever.

So he leaves the orphange and goes to Little Hangleton - where he kills the Riddles and frames Uncle Morphin.

This COULD be at the very end of summer and he then took the Hogwarts Express after that - unknown. But he would have been only 16 at the time and considered underage and illegal for apparating. That December however he would turn 17 and so be considered an adult. I think he would have found somewhere else to live for that summer. Just as I can't see Harry living at the Dursleys after turning 17 - I can't see Tom continuing at the orphanage.

So - I would say he was 'free' for the summer of '43-'44 - altho' probably living with SOME school friend's family. Tom couldn't live at the Leaky Cauldron like Harry did - no inheritance. That does leave open time and apparating ability for him to go meet Grindelwald. 2-1/2 months of summer. The problem I see would be 1) getting an introduction - I doubt Grindelwald would 'see' a 17-year-old English wizard without a prior introduction and 2) whatever they talked about it either was NOT Horcrux-Making 101 -or- Tom was being very 'tricky' when trying to get the info on making horcruxes out of Slughorn, since Slug's memory was apparently from Tom's 7th year


__________________
When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.
 
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