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Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?



 
 
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  #81  
Old April 16th, 2007, 9:42 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

This is a very interesting thread. My thoughts on the matters are that Grindewald could have mentored Tom. In the horcrux bit, I believe that like hermione Tom devoured almost every book in the library and that is where he discovered the word horcrux but having no explanation of it went to professor slughorn to learn more about it. On where he found grindewald according to the lexicon Grindewald is a place in switzerland and this may be where he found him. The other possibility is that he may have spent some time at durmstrang when he disapeared after killing Hepzibah Smith. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.


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  #82  
Old April 16th, 2007, 10:32 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

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Originally Posted by olive632 View Post
This is a very interesting thread. My thoughts on the matters are that Grindewald could have mentored Tom. In the horcrux bit, I believe that like hermione Tom devoured almost every book in the library and that is where he discovered the word horcrux but having no explanation of it went to professor slughorn to learn more about it.
This i have to disagree with, riddle obviously knew what a horcrux was, because dumbledore himself says he wasnt looking to slughorn for information but for an opinion as to wether 7 horcruxes could be made, and if they could would they be powerful.


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  #83  
Old April 16th, 2007, 11:26 pm
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

I really think that this is stretching a little too far, and too extraneous to the plot. I think that the function that Grindelwald plays in these novels is to show that evil has and always will exist, and the battle will keep needing to be faught. Where Voldemort is Harry's battle, Grindelwald was Dumbledore's.


  #84  
Old April 17th, 2007, 12:31 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

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Originally Posted by magia View Post
This i have to disagree with, riddle obviously knew what a horcrux was, because dumbledore himself says he wasnt looking to slughorn for information but for an opinion as to wether 7 horcruxes could be made, and if they could would they be powerful.
Voldemort demanded not once, but three times to learn how a Horcrux was made. Going into that conversation, Voldemort knew that Horcruxes could (in some way) make you immortal, and he presents himself as knowing that they had something to do with putting a piece of soul in an object. (He might have been affecting that last part to put Slughorn at ease.)

However, Voldemort did not know how one tore the soul, nor did he know that spell for encasing a fragment of soul in something.


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I really think that this is stretching a little too far, and too extraneous to the plot. I think that the function that Grindelwald plays in these novels is to show that evil has and always will exist, and the battle will keep needing to be faught. Where Voldemort is Harry's battle, Grindelwald was Dumbledore's.
Harry has to find two completely hidden Horcruxes. These will be in two places of personal importance to Voldemort but largely unknown to anyone else.

How does this relate to Grindelwald? Well, Grindelwald is the single most likely source of the Encasing spell that Voldemort needed to learn. This spell is extremely arcane Dark Magic, which means that the person with the single highest probability of both knowing the spell AND being willing to teach it to someone would be the biggest, baddest Dark Wizard of the time. That would be Grindelwald.

So, how could this be important? Well, suppose that Harry learns from Dumbledore's memories where Grindelwald dwelled. Suppose that Harry learns from Regulus' memories that Voldemort had met and learned some dark arts from Grindelwald. Mr. 1, meet Mr. 1: and let's go to #2, a very plausible Horcrux hiding place: and one that could not be discovered by either Dumbledore's or Regulus' knowledge alone.

I could be wrong, but this just might be relevant to the plot........


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  #85  
Old April 17th, 2007, 2:03 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

I don't think that he directly mentored Tom, but Riddle could have studied Grindelwald's history to see where he made his "mistakes". By seeing what worked or didn't work, Riddle could have used that information in his own plans for world domination. If Grindelwald made a horcrux, then Tom would have learned that he needed more than one.


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Old April 17th, 2007, 2:07 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

this is a very thought provoking thread. i had thought about dd knowing things about dark magic because of his defeat of grindelwald and that perhaps that had something to do with how much he knew of voldy's doings and movements, but i never realized that the timeline fell into place quite like that. after seeing the dates like that, i have to agree that it seems very likely that they would have at least had some form of contact, probably some mentoring.

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Originally Posted by olive632 View Post
On where he found grindewald according to the lexicon Grindewald is a place in switzerland and this may be where he found him. The other possibility is that he may have spent some time at durmstrang when he disapeared after killing Hepzibah Smith. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.
as far as where goes, it has been my experience that evil finds evil. if a say highschool student is looking to hang out in the "wrong" crowd or be at the "wrong" place, they usually find a place. and i don't think it would have been that hard for tom to find grindy. however, my problem with the after smith's death part would be that her murder would have been a while after tom graduated, which means that by this point grindy has already been defeated. but durmstrang is an interesting theory. it has been my opinion that harry, now going to be of age and able to apparate, will do a bit of traveling in this book. i suppose we will have to wait and see...


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  #87  
Old April 18th, 2007, 3:23 pm
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

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Originally Posted by dobbysfriend View Post
If Grindelwald made a horcrux, then Tom would have learned that he needed more than one.
Voldemort decided to make six Horcruxes before Grindelwald was defeated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeNgUiNsRuLe View Post
this is a very thought provoking thread. i had thought about dd knowing things about dark magic because of his defeat of grindelwald and that perhaps that had something to do with how much he knew of voldy's doings and movements, but i never realized that the timeline fell into place quite like that. after seeing the dates like that, i have to agree that it seems very likely that they would have at least had some form of contact, probably some mentoring.
Grindelwald probably had one piece of information that Voldemort wanted: the spell for making a Horcrux.

As for Dumbledore, he probably knew these things because of his great theoretical knowledge. It is possible that he did not actually know the Horcrux spell itself: after all, why would he need to know it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeNgUiNsRuLe View Post
however, my problem with the after smith's death part would be that her murder would have been a while after tom graduated, which means that by this point grindy has already been defeated.
Grindelwald was still at large in the summer of 1944. Voldemort had decided that he wanted to learn how to make Horcruxes by the spring of 1944. So, Voldemort had all of his summer to find Grindelwald. As Voldemort was 17, he could freely apparate wherever he needed to go.

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Originally Posted by PeNgUiNsRuLe View Post
it has been my opinion that harry, now going to be of age and able to apparate, will do a bit of traveling in this book. i suppose we will have to wait and see...
True, but he almost certainly will be travelling a bit. Rowling did not make 17 year olds legal adults without reason.....


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  #88  
Old April 18th, 2007, 8:26 pm
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

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Originally Posted by PeNgUiNsRuLe View Post
however, my problem with the after smith's death part would be that her murder would have been a while after tom graduated, which means that by this point grindy has already been defeated
JK rowling has never been quite clear on what actually happened to Grindelwald. If you take defeated to mean killed, then you are completely right, but we know that in the magical world there are a lot of other things that defeated could mean. e.g. stripped of all magical power, turned into a fragment of soul like Voldemort was. This could mean that he could continue giving Voldemort inormation in the years after his "defeat"


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  #89  
Old April 18th, 2007, 9:16 pm
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

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Originally Posted by dobbysocks View Post
JK rowling has never been quite clear on what actually happened to Grindelwald. If you take defeated to mean killed, then you are completely right, but we know that in the magical world there are a lot of other things that defeated could mean. e.g. stripped of all magical power, turned into a fragment of soul like Voldemort was. This could mean that he could continue giving Voldemort inormation in the years after his "defeat"
that's very true. i suppose he could be living on some unknown island drinking sweet tea and lying in the sun even now...but, yeah, you're right. the wording is suspicious, he could have been so magically "disabled" after dd was through with him that he was defeated and no longer a threat, but still alive. although i'd think he'd be a threat as long as he could still pollute young minds, but hindsight's 20/20.

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Originally Posted by Wimsey View Post
Grindelwald probably had one piece of information that Voldemort wanted: the spell for making a Horcrux.
i agree that the horcrux spell would be his most desired knowledge, but anything else you could learn along the way would probably be nice, plus any other contacts or dark wizards he could talk to. we know that tommy enjoyed learning. i think he would have first and foremost wanted the horcrux spell, but also wanted to gain as much information on the dark arts as possible. then, using the information he had, he would go on to disappear and begin his experiments.

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Originally Posted by Wimsey View Post
Grindelwald was still at large in the summer of 1944. Voldemort had decided that he wanted to learn how to make Horcruxes by the spring of 1944. So, Voldemort had all of his summer to find Grindelwald. As Voldemort was 17, he could freely apparate wherever he needed to go.
yes, but we know he began working at borgin and burkes when he left hogwarts. and, based on the impression i've always gotten from the memory, he'd probably been working there for quite a bit of time before the memory; smith treats him like he's been doing business with her for a while by that point. and it's after he kills her and leaves b&b that he disappears off the map to perform his experiments. i just don't think after her quite fits the timeline. plus, if he got the spell from grindy and he made at least the ring horcrux while in school, he would have to have been in contact with grindy before he ever graduates.


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  #90  
Old April 18th, 2007, 10:31 pm
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

This is a very intesting idea. JKR did kind of hint that Grindelwald may be important in the final book, so it's an interesting thought that he and Riddle may have worked together before he was defeated. Judging from the timeline provided by Wimsey, I suppose he could have used his summer vacation to locate Grindelwald, though that would have meant he was actively seeking him out for advice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wimsey View Post
Grindelwald probably had one piece of information that Voldemort wanted: the spell for making a Horcrux.
It does seem likely that Grindelwald might have made a horcrux, but I don't think we know for sure if he had knowledge of the horcrux spell. If so, that would be a strong motivator for Riddle to seek Grindelwald out. In any case, Riddle could just as easily encountered Grindelwald during the time he disappeared and went through all those transformations.


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  #91  
Old April 18th, 2007, 11:22 pm
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

I think that it is also interesting to pose the question of where did Grindelwald go to school? We have not heard of anything regarding him being at Hogwarts, and Durmstrang would be a very likely candidate.


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  #92  
Old April 18th, 2007, 11:36 pm
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

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This is a very intesting idea. JKR did kind of hint that Grindelwald may be important in the final book, so it's an interesting thought that he and Riddle may have worked together before he was defeated. Judging from the timeline provided by Wimsey, I suppose he could have used his summer vacation to locate Grindelwald, though that would have meant he was actively seeking him out for advice. It does seem likely that Grindelwald might have made a horcrux, but I don't think we know for sure if he had knowledge of the horcrux spell. If so, that would be a strong motivator for Riddle to seek Grindelwald out. In any case, Riddle could just as easily encountered Grindelwald during the time he disappeared and went through all those transformations.
I think Grindelwald probably did have a horcrux which is why Dumbledore is familiar with them and why "he's particularly fierce about" the subject being banned from Hogwarts. Maybe Tom did learn the spell from Grindelwald somehow but then took it upon himself to inquire Slughorn for his opinion of multiple horcruxes. I agree that Grindelwald may have been defeated by being left in a powerless state, but he could still pass on knowledge.


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Old April 18th, 2007, 11:38 pm
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

I was just re-reading the HP series over the last few weeks, and an interesting pattern hit me: over the course of the books never is Voldemort refered to as "The darkest Wizard of all time" or "The worst wizard the world has ever seen" It is always something like "The most powerful dark wizard for a century" or "The most evil wizard alive"
I think this hints to an even worse person in the history of magic, and Jo definately seems to be hiding something about Grindelwald...
Just a thought


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Old April 18th, 2007, 11:45 pm
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

While I think it's probable that Riddle went out looking for information and possibly found it out from Grindewald, I don't think he mentored Riddle in the way we might think. We know Riddle was extremely independent and wanted to become the most powerful wizard who ever lived. I just don't think he respects any other wizard enough to learn quite a bit from them or apprentice himself with them.

Well, other than DD, who knows Riddle's true nature, which I think is what he is more afraid of than DD the person, imo.


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  #95  
Old April 19th, 2007, 12:17 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Grindelwald was defeated, but was he killed?


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  #96  
Old April 19th, 2007, 12:24 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

I don't know if he was killed, but he is definitely dead.


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Old April 19th, 2007, 1:41 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

I think Gindelwald did have somethig that Tom Riddle wanted; some information about horcruxes. I can't see Grindelwald mentoring Tom, just doesn't seem to fit his fierce independent streak. I think Tom used the same tactic he used on everyone else to get what he wanted; charm.


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Old April 19th, 2007, 1:48 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

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I think Gindelwald did have somethig that Tom Riddle wanted; some information about horcruxes. I can't see Grindelwald mentoring Tom, just doesn't seem to fit his fierce independent streak. I think Tom used the same tactic he used on everyone else to get what he wanted; charm.

I agree that a fully powerful Grindelwald isn't going to just give over his information on horcruxes. Tom probably used charming or trickery to get what he wanted (this is assuming they met, of course).


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  #99  
Old April 19th, 2007, 2:31 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

Voldemort is shown as someone who appreciates true talent and evil. It would make sense that Grindelwald was the same, and saw potential in Tom, taking him on as an apprentice. I doubt that charm would work on someone who is possibly the most evil wizard of all time.


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Old April 19th, 2007, 3:48 am
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Re: Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

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Originally Posted by dobbysocks View Post
Voldemort is shown as someone who appreciates true talent and evil. It would make sense that Grindelwald was the same, and saw potential in Tom, taking him on as an apprentice. I doubt that charm would work on someone who is possibly the most evil wizard of all time.
yes, as, if this is the case, it was probably becoming more and more apparent to grindy that he might not make it much longer. dd was no doubt coming closer and training a successor would be a nice way to get back at dd.


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