Did Grindelwald mentor Tom Riddle?

[Morfin]

Good theory. My only main thought against the idea is how much Dumbledore impresses upon Harry, how Voldemort always works alone and in the deepest secrecy. I dont see Voldemort taking advice and learning from Grindelwald. The dates do sound like they could have been involved at some point though. I just dont think Voldemort would look upto anyone to take advice from them.

[ID824]

Originally Posted by Morfin

Good theory. My only main thought against the idea is how much Dumbledore impresses upon Harry, how Voldemort always works alone and in the deepest secrecy. I dont see Voldemort taking advice and learning from Grindelwald. The dates do sound like they could have been involved at some point though. I just dont think Voldemort would look upto anyone to take advice from them.

Quite true...but he would certainly do it if it meant being able to elude the one thing he fears above all others - death.

[YellowPoofBall]

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but I find it difficult to believe that Grindelwald would mentor Tom Riddle in any way, short of being absolutely forced if Riddle was more powerful than he. Like Dumbledore said, the Dark baddies are always on the lookout for one to rise up against them.

If Grindelwald had a Horcrux, which I find likely, he would hardly need a protege to carry on his work. I really doubt he'd want to give anyone any type of power.

[hazel_eyes_21]

I agree with ID824. I don't think he'd ever look up to anyone but to gain knowledge about overcoming death, I can see him doing that. Plus to him I think he might just look at Grindewald as another teacher seeing as he possibly taught him the Horcrux spell.

[PotterFreak0515]

It's... possible. I don't know. Why would Grindelwald tutor Tom? How would Tom have found him? What would allow Grindelwald to agree to mentor him? What did Tom need mentoring with? He's alreay brilliant, charming, can wheedle information out of people, and knows how to make Horcruxes.

Tom was born in 1925 or 26, wasn't he? So Grindelwald was defeated when Tom was twenty. So if he found Grindelwald right after he left school (when he was eighteen), he'd only have about two years to study with him. And... if that did happen, do you think Tom might have betrayed Grindelwald.

Hold on, wouldn't he have killed (or "defeated" if you want to get technical about it) Grindelwald himself? Surely he had the political knowledge to realize that Grindelwald was beginning to lose the war.... Was it a war? Or was Grindelwald just some crazy Dark wizard?

This is getting way too complex. I think it all depends on various circumstances about Grindelwald.

My final answer is going to be know.... I think. I think Tom would have killed Grindelwald himself if the former was beginning to lose against Dumbledore. Think of the popularity points he'd gain! And he'd kill him because Tom wouldn't stay an understudy for long. Just long enough to get the information he needs - then he takes over. And I know some might argue that he wouldn't have had enough power at the age of twenty, but I disagree. He created Horcruxes and commited murder at the age of what, sixteen? I know Grindelwald was uber powerful, but Dumbledore defeated him! So that would be a no.

[Chris]

My own opinion is that Tom Riddle found out information from Grindelwald in some way, shape, or form. This could have come from studying Grindy after the fact (aka learning how DD defeated him, and trying to avoid that same mistake), direct tutoring from Grindy (I think this less likely, because if Grindy was the big, bad dark wizard many think he was, he wouldn't have wanted a true apprentice - he'd be interested only in followers), or trickery (Grindy never knew Tom Riddle got info from him).

[PeNgUiNsRuLe]

Aww, I missed this thread getting all active again...

Ok, about the timeline, if I'm not mistaken (it's said somewhere previous on this thread), Grindy was defeated in 45 and Tommy graduated in 44. I think...At any rate, all Tommy really needed was the Horcrux incantation before he made them. Which is why several of us on here tend to think Tommy was seeking out Grindy before he graduated, probably during his summers. I kind of think he would have approached Grindy like a fan, using his charm and flattery to get on Grindy's good side. Think of how the DEs approach Voldy; they call him my lord and attempt to flatter him, especially if they're giving bad news. I think Tommy was charming enough that he could have gotten the information he wanted from Grindy, probably without Grindy even realizing exactly what he was telling Tommy. I don't think he would have walked up to him saying hi, I'm the guy that's gonna try to take you down and become the most powerful Dark Lord ever. I also think it might have amused Grindy to have a follower right under DD's nose. It's fairly obvious that DD and Grindy had a relationship similar to that of DD and Voldy. I'm sure he would have thought it entertaining to have a young follower/supporter that he was "mentoring" in DD's classes every week, right in front of his face. At any rate, I think it's very possible, and, based on Jo's reaction in the interview with Emerson and Melissa and the Chocolate Frog Card information we have, I think it fits quite nicely.

[YellowPoofBall]

I think it fits nicely too, but I think Grindelwald would only teach anybody magic that he could counter. I think something as advanced as Horcruxes, something that would make the user virtually immortal, would be a closely guarded secret. I don't think he'd want anybody to know he had a Horcrux either. Imagine someone trying to wheedle that information out of Voldemort. I'd say it would have been just as impossible for Tom Riddle to get that information from Grindelwald.

[PeNgUiNsRuLe]

Originally Posted by YellowPoofBall

I think it fits nicely too, but I think Grindelwald would only teach anybody magic that he could counter. I think something as advanced as Horcruxes, something that would make the user virtually immortal, would be a closely guarded secret. I don't think he'd want anybody to know he had a Horcrux either. Imagine someone trying to wheedle that information out of Voldemort. I'd say it would have been just as impossible for Tom Riddle to get that information from Grindelwald.

But not if he too had a Horcurx, which could explain DD's fierceness on the subject. If Grindy had a Horcrux, I don't see why Tommy wouldn't be able to coax the method out of him, as long as he either didn't think Tommy would make one or would only make one. Then, later I think (I think he'd already made the diary by the time the conversation takes place), he tries to ask Sluggy about more than one. He wouldn't have wanted Grindy to know his plans, and DD says after the conversation that what he really wanted to know was if he could make more than one. Then I think he went on to make the ring. And Voldy may be harder to get that info out of because he knows all the tricks and such. But if Tommy was as charming as he's given credit for and Grindy himself wasn't a charmer and so didn't see it coming, it is possible. I think it is anyway...

[Gandalf_Shaw]

Originally Posted by PeNgUiNsRuLe

But not if he too had a Horcurx, which could explain DD's fierceness on the subject. If Grindy had a Horcrux, I don't see why Tommy wouldn't be able to coax the method out of him, as long as he either didn't think Tommy would make one or would only make one. Then, later I think (I think he'd already made the diary by the time the conversation takes place), he tries to ask Sluggy about more than one. He wouldn't have wanted Grindy to know his plans, and DD says after the conversation that what he really wanted to know was if he could make more than one. Then I think he went on to make the ring. And Voldy may be harder to get that info out of because he knows all the tricks and such. But if Tommy was as charming as he's given credit for and Grindy himself wasn't a charmer and so didn't see it coming, it is possible. I think it is anyway...

I agree, Dumbledore seemed much more interested in the fact that Voldemort had made more than one Horcrux. It doesn't seem absurd to believe Grindelwald taught Riddle how to make a Horcrux, but then Riddle would ask Slughorn about the possibility of more Horcruxes, in order to keep his plans safe from Grindelwald. It may not appear likely but much stranger events took place in HBP that we didn't see coming.

[dobbysocks]

JK Rowling as good as said that we will see Dumbledore in book 7, could this be involving a pensieve scene, showing the demise of Grindelwald?

[HPAddict92]

My thought too, before reading the thread was no, Tom Riddle would never want to work in league with someone- he always wanted to be secluded, secret, important, and as he put it as a child, to be "special." It's hard for me to see him asking for help in that way.
After reading responses I've heard some good arguments, which honestly make me more torn because there are possibilities in both directions.

[Tbone]

Grindelwald may not have been a mentor per se, but he may have been an influence. We don't know anything about what Grindelwald was trying to do, and we have only a vague idea of what Voldemort's aim was, aside from taking over and conquering death. Perhaps Voldemort had friends at school whose parents were in league with Grindelwald (his house was Slytherin, where, as we all know, turns out many Dark wizards ). Tom Riddle could have gotten the idea for opening the CoS from him too (unlikely though). Or, perhaps Tom Riddle, somewhat like Malfoy now, offered his services to Grindelwald, but Dumbledore defeated him before Riddle really could do anything, so he decided to work at Borgin and Burkes.

Another interesting point: The chocolate frog card in Book 1 says that Dumbledore is famous for his "...defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald." And in book 5, Dumbledore says to Voldemort that there ways of destroying a man that are much worse than death. Perhaps that's how Dumbledore defeated Grindlewald and Voldemort thought him dead?

[Tenshi]

I read something interesting on the Lexicon.

hp-lexicon.com/Horcruxes According to Slughorn, some spell appears to be involved for the implant process, but Slughorn neither knew nor wished to know the detailsHBP23).

As I beleive that the memory was complete in the end, Voldemort didn't get the informations about the spell from Slughorn that night. So where did he get it else from?

HBP, Horcruxes "There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!" said Slughorn, shaking his head like an old elephant bothered by mosquitoes. "Do I look as though I have tried it - do I lool like a killer?"

It sound as if he's the opinion that only someone who would do such things know how exactly the spell works. And earlier he said that very few would even do it. As only really bad people probably would think of splitting their sould, Grindelwald is indeed a good option.

[Chris]

The line from DD, where he says that "you and I both know there are other ways of destroying a man", is indeed curious. As is the fact that, although it was nonverbal, both DD and LV knew exactly what the spell was. I'm one who thinks that the spell DD used may be the same spell DD used on Grindelwald - I don't think it's much of a stretch to link the Choco frog card and the OoTP battle.

[TreacleFudge]

Originally Posted by Morfin

Good theory. My only main thought against the idea is how much Dumbledore impresses upon Harry, how Voldemort always works alone and in the deepest secrecy. I dont see Voldemort taking advice and learning from Grindelwald. The dates do sound like they could have been involved at some point though. I just dont think Voldemort would look upto anyone to take advice from them.

That says it all for me

[dobbysocks]

Originally Posted by Tbone

Another interesting point: The chocolate frog card in Book 1 says that Dumbledore is famous for his "...defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald." And in book 5, Dumbledore says to Voldemort that there ways of destroying a man that are much worse than death. Perhaps that's how Dumbledore defeated Grindlewald and Voldemort thought him dead?

I like it! So that would mean that the time frame would not have to be before Grindelwald was defeated, maybe he was floating around, stripped to the very barest form of existence. Jo also said that we would find out what that spell was, so that works well with the pensive theory!

[Iqen]

Grindelwald mentoring Riddle seems a bit too far fetched. Voldemort, as Dumbledore said, is that he always prefers being solo. So I doubt he would take any advice from Grindelwald, Voldemort does think that he is more powerful then any other wizard.

[SeverusLovesUs]

Originally Posted by Iqen

Grindelwald mentoring Riddle seems a bit too far fetched. Voldemort, as Dumbledore said, is that he always prefers being solo. So I doubt he would take any advice from Grindelwald, Voldemort does think that he is more powerful then any other wizard.

Voldemort is much more likely to use coercion to get information, rather than taking on a student role. However, he was perfectly charmiong with most of the teachers at Hogwarts, and he was even Head Boy. He was such a good student because he wanted knowledge for knowledge is power. He coiuld easily adopt the same attitude to charm Grindelwald into mentoring him. I think it is likely that Dumbledore *defeated* Grindelwald, not by killing him, but by rendering him powerless. Perhaps Grindelwald was eager to pass on his information to one he saw had potential to carry out his dark agenda. I could see a teacher/student scenario easily, but it could just as easily be that Voldemort sought out Grindelwald and coerced information frrom him by force. Grindlewald was possibly living like a muggle, with no magical powers, and maybe had memory charms that Voldemort had to break through. Either way seems good to me.

[secunda]

I wonder if Karkaroff plays a role there. He is about the same age than Voldemort. If Grindelwald indeed was a student of Durmstrang, where the DA were taught. Maybe he was teacher later and Karkaroff was a student.
And Grindy maybe taught his students how to make Horcruxes.
Karkaroff was maybe an early follower of Voldemort and told him about horcruxes.
Karkaroff behaved very strangely in GoF.