Sirius Black: Character Analysis v.2

[witchygurl]

Originally Posted by Alonna

The Potters were clearly not blood traitors like the Weasleys. On the Black family tree, a member of the Black family tree married a Potter without being blasted off which means that the Black family considered the Potters good purebloods unlike the person who married a Weasley and was blasted off. Just because the Potter family was against the Dark Arts doesn't give any indication of how they stood in regards blood purity. They may have disliked the Dark Arts, but disliked muggleborns. For all we know, James could have been an oddball in his willingness to marry a muggleborn.

The thing about the Blacks is that they were dark wizards. it kind of seems like James wasn't in any way dissagreeing with his family, he was pretty pampered as a child. The potters seem like the type of family to not want to associate with the blacks because of their obsession with the dark arts, even if they wanted to keep their family pureblood.

[Latisha]

I don't know about that, seeing as James Potter having married a muggleborn would have been blasted off the tree, as well as James' parents would have been blasted off the tree even before that because they would have taken him in at first, yes?

Afterall, don't forget that the Black Family Tree as is shown on Lexicon is not the completed family tree. This was done on purpose because of something to do with the future plot, so we can't rule off that James' parents were not blasted off the tree. Also remember that even though JKR is a genius writer, maths is not her strong suit and she has also told us so, so that ages may be fudged a bit.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by hwyla

Thanks for posting this Meenaxi! Finally a piece of canon! This does tend to suggest that Sirius felt disconnected from his family. Well, at least from his brother - it doesn't say anything about his parents.

However, it should also be noted that 'pampering' doesn't mean affection. One can be rewarded for 'proper' thought and actions and still feel bereft of affection and need someone 'like' a brother - especially if the parents somehow play the real brothers against each other.

It says "family connections" - that would imply the entire family - not just his brother. He found a brother in James - and he also derived parental love from the Potters - family connections. From what we are shown on page, there was no pampering of any kind. Sirius never felt loved or accepted by his family and, as such, never loved or accepted them in return. He hated them and everything they stood for.

I really don't understand how anyone could think that Sirius would have been pampered when everything we have been shown thus far shows the complete opposite.

I get the feeling people are thinking that I said Sirius was a nasty little DE in training. I didn't. This started in response to someone saying they thought Sirius was abused like Harry. And I just do not 'see' that.

Actually, I never said that Sirius was abused. I said that Sirius' childhood was most likely similar to Harry's in terms that he was unloved, unwanted, and shunned because he was "different". In some ways, that is a form of abuse, but I don't know if Sirius suffered the same extremes.

However, some of the abuse that Harry suffered at the hands of the Dursleys would have been commonly accepted punishments in the past. Being locked in a room, being forced to do difficult and nasty chores, food being limited to the bare minimum to avoid starvation, etc... That type of punishment was not uncommon for children - particularly in wealthy, influential families where the parents did not bond with their children. I think it is very possible that Sirius was given similar punishments for similar reasons - simply because he was different.

Agreeing with his parents' pureblood ideology at 10 is NOT the same as believing what Voldy espoused. Not even Draco said (when Harry first met him) said that muggleborns were idiots or incompetents. He said they would be 'behind' because they had not grown up in the wizarding world and so there would be much they didn't understand.

Actually, the general belief is that muggles and muggleborns are inferior to pure-bloods. I don't recall any character saying muggles or muggleborns were idiots or incompetent - just that they were inferior. And Draco did espouse that belief from the beginning - and we see why he believes that in COS when Harry witnesses how Lucius treats him in Borgin and Burkes.

Again, from what we are shown, Sirius never shared his parents' ideology and he felt that Regulus was an idiot because he did believe them.

I do think tho' that (like Draco) Sirius had probably never met a muggleborn before the Hogwarts' train (altho' I suppose there is the slight chance that he might have met Ted Tonks thru Andromeda? I tend to think tho' that she never brought him home - slytherin cunning.

That leaves Sirius' neighborhood as the only way to know what a muggle might be like. And a muggle is not the same as a muggle-born. They not only cannot do magic - they cannot be told about it. IF Sirius had mingled with the muggles of his neighborhood (as a child) he would have been probably rejected as a wierdo - he wouldn't know what TV was for instance - he wouldn't be able to take any kids home - he'd have to sneak around, hiding from his parents that he was even out of the house.

However, it is still possible that Sirius did those things. And TV was not as commonplace in the early 60's as it became later on. And that sort of thing would easily be explained - even today my kids have friends whose parents do not let them watch any TV or even listen to the radio because of religious beliefs. All Sirius would need to have done is say his parents wouldn't allow it and he had to sneak out to even be allowed to play. He would have most likely gotten sympathy rather than be considered a weirdo.

Not that he would have needed to actually meet a muggle to know there was nothing wrong with them. He wasn't completely isolated and they lived in a muggle neighborhood. And he had relatives who were - by his own words - decent who would have been able to tell him that the whole pure-blood superiority rant was meaningless.

I just see Sirius (as a child, pre-Hogwarts) as being pushed and stuffed into a mold of his parents' making. And he didn't fit. I don't think he really realized WHY he didn't quite fit until he finally met people where he DID fit (the guys in his dorm), but he knew he wasn't quite exactly what they wanted him to be.

And so - once he gets to Hogwarts and feels he's somewhere he does 'fit', he rebels - especially against 'authority' in the form of the 'rules'. That would lead to more and more trouble at home each summer until it explodes after 5th year and he leaves.

I would agree that his parents tried to push and shove him into that mold and he didn't fit. However, I think Sirius knew why he didn't fit because he never agreed with them. There is nothing in canon to support the idea that he ever did and quite a bit of evidence to show that he did not.

And I think it needs to be remembered that Mrs. Black's portrait is a piece of what she was like 'at the time of her death' - I think she espoused the same beliefs when Sirius was younger, but probably not as vocally or insanely until the rebellious teens came up. But see, I actually think she was 'hurt' by Sirius' running away. I know others do not agree with me, but I think all the blastings on the Tree Tapestry happened after Sirius ran off - in a bit of a tantrum and 'lesson' for Regulus.

Some of the blastings occurred after Sirius left - he mentions that to Harry. But not all of them. Sirius knew why those names had been blasted off the tree and that tells us that he witnessed some blastings himself - likely as a lesson to him and Regulus. From what we are shown, that was not done in a tantrum, but it was a cold, unfeeling action - disowning any family member who did not show what they considered "proper wizarding pride".

[wimblemimble]

Some of the blastings occurred after Sirius left - he mentions that to Harry. But not all of them. Sirius knew why those names had been blasted off the tree and that tells us that he witnessed some blastings himself - likely as a lesson to him and Regulus. From what we are shown, that was not done in a tantrum, but it was a cold, unfeeling action - disowning any family member who did not show what they considered "proper wizarding pride".

It could have been done in a tantrum if the member of the family that was blasted has just commited the act that got them blasted.

Really, although there is a little more canon for Sirius having made up his mind completly before going to Hogwarts I dont' think that there is enough. So, until JKR gives us more information, I think I'll end up sticking with my interpretation, simply because I think its a more natural way for his feelings to have progressed.

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

It could have been done in a tantrum if the member of the family that was blasted has just commited the act that got them blasted.

Actually, I think this is the most likely idea, considering the overly-emotional reaction Mrs. Black's painting has to the appearance of the Order in Grimmauld Place.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

If the Potters were 'blood-traitors' like the Weaselys then I can't see the Blacks allowing Sirius to spend time with them.

We don't know whether or not the Potters were considered blood traitors or not - obviously their beliefs would put them into that status by the current standards, but we don't know how things were before the war with Voldemort. This was before the war with Voldemort had really begun. Their are Potters on the Black family tree and, unlike the Weasleys, the Potters were a wealthy, affluential family from what Jo has said. Since there are very few pure-blood families, I think it is unlikely that the Blacks would have alienated the Potters - and I do think their wealth would have played a part in that as well. I can see them at least putting on a good show in the Potters' presence - even if they did talk about them behind their backs. Also typical behavior in wealthy families like that.

But Sirius never admitted to that until confronted. The same with his being related to Bellatrix. He admitted, grudgingly, that it was true, but he wasn't overly eager to share this information. In the same way I don't see him really wanting to tell Harry about how he felt as a child.

Again, I would have to disagree. Sirius wasn't proud of his behavior or happy about being related to Bellatrix, but he was still honest about it. He could have made excuses for his behavior - but he didn't. He could have dragged Harry away from the family tree instead of telling him about his family - but he didn't. He was honest.

And it is the author's responsibility to make this sort of thing clear to the reader. Jo used that scene to show us that Sirius was not close to his family and never really had been. She used that scene to show that Sirius had a miserable childhood and did not have one single happy memory regarding that house - not one.

If Sirius had shared his family's beliefs at any point in his childhood, then his conversation with Harry would have gone much differently. Instead of saying he ran away at 16 because "I'd had enough", Sirius would have said he ran away because he realized they were wrong and/or figured out what kind of people they really were. Instead of saying Regulus was an idiot because he was soft enough to believe their parents, Sirius would have said Regulus was an idiot because he never figured it out. And so on and so forth. The wording of that conversation is significant because it shows that Sirius always felt that way. He never shared his family's beliefs and he ran away because he couldn't take it anymore - not because anything changed.

But not every pure-blood supremist makes it into Slytherin, and not every Slytherin believes in that. It isn't your opinions that make your house, but your attitude and actions.

Can you name any pure-blood supremist from another house? I can't think of any. Huffepuff, Ravenclaw, and Gryffindor all exhibit tolerance and acceptance regardless of blood status and are offended by the term "mudblood". It is only the Slytherins who have been shown to be prejudiced to that extreme. And I'm not saying that all Slytherins are prejudiced, but I have yet to see anyone prejudiced from another house besides Slytherin. Your opinions and actions are formed on the basis of your personality and attitude.

I agree. I don't think he was a little DE in training either. We don't even have canon that Sirius parents truly supported Voldemort's actions. We know that Regulus joined the DE's to please his parents, but then backed out because he didnt' like what they expected him to do. This seems to indicate that neither he or his parents really knew the full length to which Voldemort was willing to go.

I agree. And that is stated in canon as well. The Blacks and other pure-blood supremist families agreed with the ideology espoused by Voldemort, but not all of them were willing to go to such extremes in favor of that ideology. The Blacks were horrible people and Dark Wizards, but they had limits and were not completely evil, IMO.

But I think there was a time when Sirius took his parents beliefs as self-evident. Like I said, in the back of his mind it might not have sat quite right, but he didn't fully question it until he got to Hogwarts.

I would have to disagree. If there was even the slightest question, then he did not share that ideology or feel that it was self-evident. You either accept your family's beliefs or you don't. I think Sirius' opinion of his family was fully formed before he went to Hogwarts and I feel that Jo made that clear on page in the scene where Sirius tells Harry about his family. He hated them and did not agree with anything they stood for. His childhood in that house was miserable and he did not have a single happy memory about that place or his family - with the exception of his few decent relatives like his uncle Alphard and his cousin Andromeda. I'm not leaving Tonks out - Sirius did not meet her until after he had escaped from Azkaban - I'm referring to his childhood memories of his family.

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

It could have been done in a tantrum if the member of the family that was blasted has just commited the act that got them blasted.

Really, although there is a little more canon for Sirius having made up his mind completly before going to Hogwarts I dont' think that there is enough. So, until JKR gives us more information, I think I'll end up sticking with my interpretation, simply because I think its a more natural way for his feelings to have progressed.

I agree that it's possible that Mrs. Black blasted those names off in anger. However, I think that was her reaction whenever anyone in the family went against the idea of pure-blood supremacy and I believe that Sirius witnessed those blastings that occurred before he left home for good.

However, I would have to disagree that it would be more natural for Sirius to agree with his family until he went to Hogwarts. If that were the case, then it would have been natural for him to end up in Slytherin instead of Gryffindor and he would never have become friends with Lupin or Pettigrew - and his friendship with James would not have been anywhere near as close as it was. If they were friends before Hogwarts, they would have eventually drifted apart because of their different beliefs. If they were not friends before Hogwarts, then they never would have become friends because Sirius would not have taken the time to get to know him. That would be the natural way of things.

As it stands, Jo has shown us that Sirius never agreed with his family's beliefs and he hated them. He was never close to them. He had no happy memories of his parents or his brother. He had no happy memories about that house. He had no happy memories from his childhood. His only source of happiness was his friendship with the Marauders and his time at Hogwarts. I think it is perfectly natural that he would have questioned his family from a young age and, because of that, he was willing to make friends with those who did not agree with pure-blood supremacy and/or were not "pure" themselves. That is the natural course that would have preceded his arrival at Hogarts, IMO.

[wimblemimble]

If there was even the slightest question, then he did not share that ideology or feel that it was self-evident. You either accept your family's beliefs or you don't.

Perhapes I worded it wrong, then. I think that Sirius did question his parents beliefs, but at a small level. Perhapes his natural need to rebel kicked in at an early age. However, I can also see him trying to subdue his questioning of his parents ideology, because he may have been the only person he ever knew that openly questioned it. It might have always been at the back of his head, and he might have asked his parents once or twice, however I don't see him taking it too far.

But once he got to Hogwarts and saw that others also didn't believe in it he was morally outraged at his family. This could easily obscure any happy or decent memory he had of his family, and turn his acceptance of his family into bitter loathing.

[Hinoema]

At this point it may be safest to say that he did indeed reject his family's ideology enough that his memories of his home life were unpleasant and drove him to leave and to feel a great hatred for the house. We can also, I believe, safely assume that he was sorted into Gryffindor because he did not fit anywhere else and that his rebellion, caused in part by disagreement with his family's values and however internal at the time, likely played a role.

So what does that show about his character? I believe that this shows a certain fairness in him that other rejected Blacks shared, and a willingness not to condemn others simply because of prejudice.

[ComicBookWorm]

We can't know anything about what Sirius thought before he attended Hogwarts. But once he did attend he became friends with a werewolf. I don't know how long it took for them to figure it out, but they were all together in the same dorm room, so it would have been hard not to suspect something.

Also we do know that Remus is a half-blood, so that didn't bother Sirius. And since we know that muggleborns can only become DEs under rare circumstances, I suspect Wormtail's betrayal of the Potters would qualify as a rare circumstance. He's certainly treated like a second class citizen by Voldemort and Snape, and all the other DEs we've seen named have been purebloods except for Snape.

So Sirius became friends with a half-blood and, most likely, a muggleborn. He was in Gryffindor instead of Slytherin. That had to have been by choice since his entire family had been in Slytherin, and his direct ancestor was in Slytherin and a headmaster. The Sorting Hat instantly put Malfoy into Slytherin. With a family like Sirius's (just look at his home), he would have been an automatic selection as well. I think an early act of bravery that qualified him for Gryffindor was deciding to be in Gryffindor.

Also, the legacy of Salazar Slytherin was a house that valued purebloods (yes I know there are non-pureblood Slytherins), but Sirius turned his back on that, and instead, chose a house with a legacy of openly accepting non-purebloods. He was also best friends with a boy from a family that raised their son to be unable to even speak the word mudblood.

I think we can see evidence that Sirius had already rejected his bigoted upbringing by the time he went to Hogwarts. And there is more evidence for that, than an assumption that he believed as his parents did when he went to Hogwarts, since we have no information about that.

[PotionA]

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

If the Potters were 'blood-traitors' like the Weaselys then I can't see the Blacks allowing Sirius to spend time with them.

That would mean that they wouldn't have approved of Sirius associating with quite a few people in his House, but he still did. With James Potter strong morals and fairness regarding blood purity, it is safe to assumed that he comes from a family who value wizards from all bloodlines and families equally like the Weasleys seeing as James had got along with his parents and also that Sirius had camped out of their house and was invited on Sundays. And canon shows that Sirius had rebelled against his family's beliefs, hence anything they say to him or disapprove of would bounce off him.

But Sirius never admitted to that until confronted. The same with his being related to Bellatrix. He admitted, grudgingly, that it was true, but he wasn't overly eager to share this information. In the same way I don't see him really wanting to tell Harry about how he felt as a child.

Of course he needed to be confronted about it - he doesn't like parading around the fact that he's related to Bellatrix Lestrange. Sirius would've simply told Harry to not to bother with the family tree and divert him away from it if he was so intent on keeping it a secret. He had always been honest with Harry. He wouldn't have been sitting there with him discussing his family at all. He was not proud of what his family stood for and he had explained his relations with them with distaste.

But not every pure-blood supremist makes it into Slytherin, and not every Slytherin believes in that. It isn't your opinions that make your house, but your attitude and actions.

Your opinions have a great influence on attitude and action - common human psychology It is a pureblood's opinion on bloodline and family that determine's which House they should be put in due to their attitude about it - for instance, a boy from a pureblood family who believes in pureblood supremacy has Slytherin qualities because the House values bloodline.

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by Hinoema

So what does that show about his character? I believe that this shows a certain fairness in him that other rejected Blacks shared, and a willingness not to condemn others simply because of prejudice.

I quite agree. Sirius has some very good morals he cannot have learned at home. But he sometimes struggles to live up to them. We see him disapprove of Crouch's treatment of Winky but later on he yells at Kreacher. This is of course mostly due to his negative feelings in regard to his childhood. I think it shows that his emotions sometimes get in the way of his ideals, which makes him very human. I do not think that he ever discriminated against Muggleborns or half-bloods.

[meenaxi]

Originally Posted by Madron

I quite agree. Sirius has some very good morals he cannot have learned at home. But he sometimes struggles to live up to them. We see him disapprove of Crouch's treatment of Winky but later on he yells at Kreacher. This is of course mostly due to his negative feelings in regard to his childhood. I think it shows that his emotions sometimes get in the way of his ideals, which makes him very human. I do not think that he ever discriminated against Muggleborns or half-bloods.

Jo also commented about how he does not live upto the philosophy he sprouts regards to elves. But had he behaved in that way towards dobby or wonky or some hogwarts elves it would be relevant. Kreacher is a different case. Even harry doesnt like him. Does that mean harry is prejudiced against elves?
I think sirius would have been kind to winky as he was genarally kind to house elves but I cant see how he could tolerate keacher.
I dont think sirius treated keacher badly "because" keacher is a "house elf" and I feel that is important while judging what he told trio about treating inferior beings.
The author is ofcourse the best person to talk about her characters.
But this is just my opinion.
I personally feel sirius behavior had a reason but I cannot understand how a epitome of goodness jkr approves of will allow snape's abusive behavior in school. But Jo still seems to think DD is epitome of goodness.

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by meenaxi

but I cant see how he could tolerate keacher.

He doesn't tolerate Kreacher because Kreacher reminds him of his parents and especially his mother and that is something he doesn't want to remember and thus he hates him. Otherwise I am quite sure Sirius wouldn't have treated Kreacher the way he did.

[anabel]

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm

We can't know anything about what Sirius thought before he attended Hogwarts. But once he did attend he became friends with a werewolf. I don't know how long it took for them to figure it out, but they were all together in the same dorm room, so it would have been hard not to suspect something.

According to PoA, it took the Marauders "the best part of three years" to master the Animagus transformation, and they achieved it in their fifth year, so they must have discovered Remus was a werewolf in second year.

[vivekgk]

Let's assume for a moment that Sirius was a pampered, preferred kid until he got to Hogwarts, and that he did believe in it before. If so, what we see from him is a complete turnaround, when he realizes that is parents beliefs that he has been fed for all his life are wrong. He has a choice here, a choice to either do the easy thing, and appease his parents, or to stand up for what he knows to be right. It's clear that Sirius chose to be not prejudiced by his family's opinion.

It shows his strength of character, even at an early age to be not swayed by the Dark Arts and the blood-prejudice, when he had a lot to lose, including the favour and affection of his entire family. He could have chosen to dive deeper into the Dark Arts (he certainly had the resources right at home), act prejudiced to gain favour, and joined the Death Eaters in search of glory, but he chose to be shunned by his own family and risk being disowned. Sirius chose the right path rather than the easy one. That makes him a wonderful person, and a good role-model.

There are other mentions of his childhood that tell us that Sirius never did like his family. He tells Kreacher that his mother did not have a heart, that she kept herself aliv out of pure hate. How can he say that about his mother, if he were the favoured, loved and pampered son? That just doesn't fit.

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

Yes, but this friendship could have formed over a matter of hours, days, weeks, or even months. Sirius would have had time to re-think his original beleifs, especially if he already subcounciously thought his parents were wrong.

Well, if we assume that Sirius did believe in the pureblood philosophy and the Dark Arts, I just don't see James and him getting along. James hated Snape at first sight because of his association with the Dark Arts. I'd expect him to treat Sirius the same way as well. And Sirius certainly wouldn't be the kind of person to take that kind of treatment lying down. He'd retaliate, and the relationship between them would only deteriorate further.

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

And I'm sure that, if asked years from now, that many people wont remember that for a while Harry, Ron, and Hermione were not the best of friends. They have been through so much, and their rough spot was so short, that it hardly seems worth remembering.

I don't recall Ron and Harry going through any rough spots in PS. I think that James and Sirius's relationship was similar to that, if not closer.

[hwyla]

Originally Posted by Madron

I quite agree. Sirius has some very good morals he cannot have learned at home. But he sometimes struggles to live up to them. We see him disapprove of Crouch's treatment of Winky but later on he yells at Kreacher. This is of course mostly due to his negative feelings in regard to his childhood. I think it shows that his emotions sometimes get in the way of his ideals, which makes him very human. I do not think that he ever discriminated against Muggleborns or half-bloods.

I don't think any of us said he discriminated. I think some of us just figured he never had the opportunity to have met any before Hogwarts. And until he met some and found out his parents were wrong, I find it unlikely that he and his parents were at such odds with each other.

However, I'm interested to hear how you think his treatment of Kreacher is because of his childhood. Did you mean he treated Kreacher like he did because he reminded him of his childhood? Or that his childhood led him to believe that some were his inferiors subconsciously? Or that just the negative feelings from his childhood that were brought up by being in the house (and seeing Kreacher) - in other words they negative feelings he was feeling during OotP - were part of why he was - ummm... I think a good word would be 'impatient' with Kreacher?

See, I think we can figure out some of how he was treated at home from some of his personality as an adult (or even as a Hogwarts student - what little we know of that time period)

I think that no matter how Sirius consciously believes and tries to live, he still has that little subconscious voice that thinks he's 'better' - that inner voice that espouses to him that the Blacks are practically royal. I think he fights that voice, but it gets in the way of how he treats others sometimes.

First there's the very fact that his comment about Crouch and Winky shows that he does think house-elves ARE inferiors. Otherwise he would have used a different word.

But it isn't just 'underlings' like house-elves. He certainly seemed to find Peter to be lesser or lower in SWM (the comment about his toadying up to James) and we know he underestimated him.

Then there's the 'boredom' factor. He snapped at his friends and it seems to be something that has happened before because of boredom, since James seems to know to find 'something' that will interest Sirius and get his attention off the other Marauders. This suggest to 'me' a childhood that centered on 'him' - which would not be at all unlikely for the 'heir' of an aristocratic family.

I'm not trying to denigrate Sirius in this. I think it is to his credit that when he met people who his parents thought weren't worthy, he realized that his parents were wrong. That isn't easy when you're just 11. But I see the type of upbringing he 'probably' (in my eyes) had as the family heir as still affecting his behavior subconsciously.

It's part of why (I think) he had such confidence in himself and his ideas. Part of why he treated Kreacher (and Peter) the way he did. Part of his 'need' for rebellion and reckless behavior. Part of his not looking at what the consequences of his actions might be (possibly as a conscious refusal to look at them because of a constant reminding him of his 'responsibilities' as the heir when he was a child, otherwise because he didn't really need to face any consequences of anything he had done)

Just how 'I' see it.

A childhood like that would explain some of why Sirius acted as he did.

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by hwyla

I don't think any of us said he discriminated.

I didn't respond to anyone in particular. It was just a general statement.

However, I'm interested to hear how you think his treatment of Kreacher is because of his childhood. Did you mean he treated Kreacher like he did because he reminded him of his childhood? Or that his childhood led him to believe that some were his inferiors subconsciously? Or that just the negative feelings from his childhood that were brought up by being in the house (and seeing Kreacher) - in other words they negative feelings he was feeling during OotP - were part of why he was - ummm... I think a good word would be 'impatient' with Kreacher?

A combination of your first and third option. I think that Sirius once said that Kreacher hasn't changed all that much but I don't have the book with me right now. He has always worshipped Sirius's mother and in a way, he is the last living representative of what Walburga stood for - apart from the painting, which is not really alive.

[alyssareiner]

was there a potter on the black family tree? If that was mentioned before sorry, i didn't feel like reading 16 pages...

[wimblemimble]

Well, if we assume that Sirius did believe in the pureblood philosophy and the Dark Arts, I just don't see James and him getting along. James hated Snape at first sight because of his association with the Dark Arts. I'd expect him to treat Sirius the same way as well. And Sirius certainly wouldn't be the kind of person to take that kind of treatment lying down. He'd retaliate, and the relationship between them would only deteriorate further.

We don't know that he hated Severus at first sight for his interest in the Dark Arts. That is simply the reason he says he continued to hate him.

I don't recall Ron and Harry going through any rough spots in PS. I think that James and Sirius's relationship was similar to that, if not closer.

But Ron and Harry did have problems with Hermione.

Let's assume for a moment that Sirius was a pampered, preferred kid until he got to Hogwarts, and that he did believe in it before. If so, what we see from him is a complete turnaround, when he realizes that is parents beliefs that he has been fed for all his life are wrong. He has a choice here, a choice to either do the easy thing, and appease his parents, or to stand up for what he knows to be right. It's clear that Sirius chose to be not prejudiced by his family's opinion.

Yes, it would be a large turn-a-round, however I think it is still reasonable. We can assume that the Blacks kept their children relativly sheltered from other views and beliefs. So if Sirius got to finally hear about some other way of thinking I can see him re-considering.

Especially if he decided he really liked James and that James also was starting to become friends with Remus and Peter. If Sirius wanted to continue being friends with James he'd have to get over his prejeduce. Obviously I'm not trying to say that Sirius believed the pure-blood ideology with all his heart and then at the drop of a hat turned 180 degrees in his beliefs.

I'm thinking that Sirius simply accepted it to be true, but didn't really put too much thought into it. Then when he got to Hogwarts he found a new way of thinking and reconsidered. We don't know that James and Sirius were friends from the first day of school, and Sirius need not change his beliefs the moment he was sorted into Gryffindore, but I believe that is what got him really thinking about it.

[Jessica]

Do you guys think he asked to be in Gryffindor like Harry did or do you think Gryffindor was the sorting hat's choice.