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Dumbledore Was a Horcrux



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 10th, 2007, 3:16 pm
skeelos  Undisclosed.gif skeelos is offline
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Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

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FREEDOM! I have been released from the miasma of cups, mirrors, wands, tiaras, and goodness knows what else and all their repetitive permutations which forms a mountain of clutter to put even the Room of Requirement to the test. I have been cast OUT of the “Identifying & Tracking Down the Remaining Horcruxes” thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SageThyme View Post
This thread is based on the canon evidence that Dumbledore told Harry in HBP. (That's why Harry/Scarcrux have a completely different thread.

So...unless canon evidence can be supplied that Dumbledore is actually a relic of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's, Dumbledore is OUT as a possible discussion point for this thread.
Clearly then, I’ve been delivered to a new thread apart from the other Horcrux theories. I’ve chosen what I hope is the most efficient way to start at this point, which is , I’ll remove my opening post from the Horcrux thread, and recreate it here with minor modification, and here it is:

1. Is Snape loyal to Voldemort or Dumbledore?
Dumbledore. This is THE critical question. No other question comes close. The single most compelling hard evidence for the answer is in the first book when Snape is trying to counter-jinx Harry’s broom. Snape’s excuses to the DE’s completely fail to explain his action in trying to counter-jinx Harry’s broom. There simply is no reason for him to do this except that he is loyal to Dumbledore. The whole case for identifying the unknown Horcrux rests with this. If you don’t think Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, spare yourself the rest of this post.

2. If Draco failed to kill Dumbledore, did Snape have a loophole to get out of killing Dumbledore even though Snape took the Vow?
No. Bella accused Snape of this very thing, but even she was convinced by the Vow. Once Snape took the Vow either Dumbledore must die or Snape must die.

3. Since Snape is loyal to Dumbledore and the Vow meant one of them had to die, why did Snape take the Vow?

Because he already knew Dumbledore had to die. It’s the only reasonable explanation. He even said, “I think he means for me to do it in the end.” The word “he” does not refer to Voldemort it refers to Dumbledore himself. Dumbledore means for Snape to do it in the end.

4. Would Snape have taken the Unbreakable Vow if he didn’t already know that Dumbledore had to die?
No. There is just no way. He had plenty of very good reasons to give Bella and Narcissa for not taking the Vow. He could have headed off the whole thing simply by insisting that Voldemort’s orders be kept secret, and Snape is plenty smart to have done that. Even Bella was backing him up on keeping the orders secret. Instead, he volunteered the information that he already knew of the plan. If Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, he can’t possibly take the Vow except for one reason and one reason only. He already knew Dumbledore had to die.

5. How did Snape know Dumbledore had to die?
Dumbledore must have told him. This was the task the two of them argued about later by the woods and Hagrid overheard. Snape did not want to go through with it, but Dumbledore insisted.

***************************
There’s the first piece of the puzzle. Dumbledore decided he had to die. He asked Snape to kill him and Snape reluctantly agreed. But why? Why would Dumbledore decide he has to die?
***************************

6. Did something happen in any of the books before HBP that would cause Dumbledore to realize he had to die?
No. Whatever it was, it did not occur prior to HBP.

7. Did Snape take the Vow before or after the start of term?
Before.

8. So it happened after the end of the fifth year and before the start of the sixth year. Something happened during summer break that caused Dumbledore to realize he had to die?
Yes. Snape took the Vow before start of term and we’ve already decided he could only take the Vow because Dumbledore realized he had to die. That could only mean something happened during summer break that caused Dumbledore to realize he had to die.

***************************
So there’s the second piece of the puzzle. Something happened during summer break that caused Dumbledore to realize he had to die. Let’s take a look at what happened over the summer.
***************************

9. Which came first, Dumbledore’s injured hand or Snape’s Unbreakable Vow?
The hand is injured.

10. Other than Dumbledore’s hand injury, did anything else happen with Dumbledore during summer break?
Yes. Dumbledore visited the Dursley’s, and Dumbledore and Harry went to hire Slughorn to be the new DADA.

11. Which came first, Dumbledore’s injured hand or Dumbledore’s visit to the Dursley’s?
The hand is injured.

12. So of the three things that we know happened with Dumbledore during summer break, which one caused Dumbledore to realize he had to die?
His injured hand. First, his hand was injured, then he went to the Dursley’s which he had never done prior to the start of a term before, and then he goes to get Slughorn. The event must have been the one that injured his hand. There’s simply no other choice.

***************************
There’s the third piece of the puzzle. Whatever caused Dumbledore to realize he had to die was related to what happened to his hand.
***************************

13. Did Dumbledore identify a specific object for each of the Horcruxes?
No. There is one unaccounted for that Dumbledore is vague about. It could be a Ravenclaw item or a Gryffindor item.

14. Did Dumbledore’s hand injury have something to do with a Horcrux?
Yes. We don’t know the details, but it happened either retrieving the Horcrux or destroying the part of soul within it. His hand was damaged because of Voldemort’s Horcrux in Dumbledore. It was this action which finally revealed to Dumbledore that he himself was a Horcrux. Being a Horcrux, Dumbledore knew he had to die in order for Voldemort to be defeated. It is the only reasonable justification possible for Dumbledore to realize he had to die.

15. Can a Horcrux be placed in another living thing?
Yes. Dumbledore, the voice of JKR, says Nagini is a Horcrux, and there’s no reason to doubt it.

16. Can a part of soul be placed in another person?
Yes. This is not certain, but there is evidence. Voldemort possesses Harry in OOP, and Voldemort lives off of Quirrel in the first book.

17. Is there a way Voldemort could have caused Dumbledore to forget the ceremony which made him a Horcrux?
Yes. See Lockhart and memory charms in Chamber of Secrets, and recall that Voldemort is a master of that sort of thing. He is even capable of altering people’s memory to the point that they will admit to something as horrible as a murder which they did not commit. Dumbledore’s memory has been altered which Harry notices in the Pensieve:

HBP page 446
"For a second, Harry was on the verge of shouting a pointless warning: He was sure that Voldemort's hand had twitched toward his pocket and his wand; but then the moment had passed, Voldemort had turned away, the door was closing, and he was gone."

Let me emphasize something there: “He was sure that Voldemort’s hand had twitched to his pocket and his wand;” Clearly Dumbledore’s memory has been altered, Harry though, does not yet realize the importance of what he’s seen.

When Voldemort applied for the DADA job, he made Dumbledore a Horcrux, and then used a memory charm to alter Dumbledore’s memory.

18. But wait, Dumbledore said the remaining Horcrux was something of Ravenclaw or Gryffindor. How does Dumbledore fit with that?

Harry is not the heir of Gryffindor, but Dumbledore was.

***************************
There you have it. Dumbledore was a Horcrux. As an added bonus to those who suffered the drudgery of reading all this way, the Ravenclaw item which Voldemort wanted to make into a Horcrux with Harry’s death was none other than the two way mirrors one of which Sirius gave to Harry. The mirrors being inaccessible to Voldemort upon his return, Voldemort had to settle for Nagini as his final Horcrux.
***************************

That was the post I made in the Identifying Horcrux thread. Here, I’d like to make an addition. That is, Voldemort has never tried to kill Dumbledore. He has never schemed and plotted to kill Dumbledore the way he has schemed to kill Harry. If Voldemort feared Dumbledore, why would he spend so much effort on Harry and ignore Dumbledore? Why didn’t he try to kill Dumbledore long before the Prophecy? Because he didn’t want Dumbledore to die, and he didn’t want Dumbledore to die because Dumbledore was a Horcrux.


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Last edited by gertiekeddle; July 23rd, 2007 at 9:17 pm.
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  #2  
Old April 10th, 2007, 3:42 pm
voldy99  Male.gif voldy99 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

A good theory man..

But I dont think dumbledore is a horcrux DD is the most powerful wiz of the time
I cant imagin Voldermort trying to Obliviate DD


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  #3  
Old April 10th, 2007, 4:10 pm
QueenFrancis  Female.gif QueenFrancis is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

I love this theory, but I just can't imagine that Voldemort would make Dumbledore a horcrux.

Dumbledore himself says in chapter 23 of HBP that it is inadvisable to use living things as horcruxes because "to confide a part of your soul to something that can think and move for itself is obviously a very risky business."

Of course, Voldemort would have known this.
It seems conceivable that Voldemort would make a very loyal pet (friend?) like Nagini a horcrux, but not Dumbledore, one of his many enemies.

What would stop Dumbledore from killing himself and destroying the horcrux as soon as he found out he was it?

It seems almost careless for Voldemort to make a person a horcrux, especially a person who not only is not loyal to him, but is working to defeat him.


Also, about the two way mirrors, is there anything suggesting that they belonged to Ravenclaw? I don't remember much about them.


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Old April 10th, 2007, 4:37 pm
Nickoli  Male.gif Nickoli is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

If LV had DD at his mercy enabling him to cast the Horcrux spell on him, why wouldent he just kill him? And why would he make a Horcrux out of a person he has always planned to kill? Defeats the whole purpose of a Horcrux.


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Old April 10th, 2007, 4:53 pm
ModernInkling  Female.gif ModernInkling is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Hmm... Sorry, I don't think this works. Your whole theory depends on the statement that Voldemort has never tried to kill Dumbledore, but we have evidence that he has at least twice: In the Ministry of Magic; and when he ordered Draco to kill him.

Also, I agree with QueenFrancis that it would be awfully careless of Voldy to make Dumbledore a Horcrux – it would be completely out of character for him. Then, as Nikoli said, it would make no sense for Voldemort not to kill Dumbledore when he had the chance.

Nope, sorry, I don’t think this theory holds water.


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  #6  
Old April 10th, 2007, 5:11 pm
Lilith999  Female.gif Lilith999 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Fun read and good job but I can't get on boat with this either. Sorry.

I just can't imagine Voldy messing with DD's mind. No way.


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  #7  
Old April 10th, 2007, 5:17 pm
Shannah  Undisclosed.gif Shannah is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

It might make more sense to say that when DDD distroyed the ring, the piece of soul went into him and made DD a horcrux, but the two way mirrors being horcruxes make no sense in my opinion. Harry already broke his, if it was a horcrux, don't you think it would be indistructable? I am assuming the shards are still scattered on the bottom of his trunk, so he could easily fix it with a spell, but there seem to be a serious lack of protection for a horcrux.



Last edited by Shannah; April 10th, 2007 at 6:38 pm.
  #8  
Old April 10th, 2007, 5:59 pm
mugglemom22  Female.gif mugglemom22 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

This is an interesting idea, one that I have not heard before. I do have a question though.

Why would Voldemort decide to have Draco kill Dumbledore, knowing that doing so would destroy one horcrux?

Some of the elements of your theory make sense. I'll keep watching this thread and join the discussion. Very interesting.


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Old April 10th, 2007, 6:20 pm
skeelos  Undisclosed.gif skeelos is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Thank you all for your responses. Now I have to do my best to answer the critics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenFrancis
Dumbledore himself says in chapter 23 of HBP that it is inadvisable to use living things as horcruxes because "to confide a part of your soul to something that can think and move for itself is obviously a very risky business."
True, however Dumbledore would have said that it was inadvisable to create a Horcrux in the first place. Committing murder and splitting one’s soul is hardly something he would agree with, and yet obviously Voldemort had done exactly that. Also, Dumbledore said it was risky, and no doubt it is, but Voldemort is daring. He is not afraid of taking risks. He is willing to do what no other wizard would dare to do, including making multiple Horcruxes and putting his Horcrux in a living thing which he’s done with Nagini.

The risk involved would not be a good enough reason to Voldemort to stop him from doing it.

Quote:
What would stop Dumbledore from killing himself and destroying the horcrux as soon as he found out he was it?
That’s exactly what he did! However, rather than do it himself, he enlisted the help of Snape. Also, he still had to instruct Harry on the Horcruxes, and since he knew of Draco’s orders, he did what he could to protect Draco. He could not die immediately upon learning he was a Horcrux, because he still had far too much to do during the 6th term.

Quote:
Also, about the two way mirrors, is there anything suggesting that they belonged to Ravenclaw?
I think there are a few things, but that’s more the stuff of the Identifying and Locating the Remaining Horcrux thread. Personally, I think it simply fits the story so well. I think Voldemort ordered Regulus to acquire the mirrors even if it meant killing Sirius who had possession of them. Regulus couldn’t bring himself to kill his brother, so he rebelled against Voldemort and this is what caused Regulus to leave the Death Eaters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickoli
If LV had DD at his mercy enabling him to cast the Horcrux spell on him, why wouldent he just kill him?
At that time, Voldemort was still building his power. There were only rumors surrounding him and he had not yet come out in the open so to speak. Killing Dumbledore at that time would have been premature and would have undermined his ability to recruit new followers and turned the whole wizarding world against him before he was ready.

Just as important, Voldemort wanted to make his Horcruxes. He wanted something from each of the founders and what could he choose of Gryffindor’s? Dumbledore is the ideal choice because Dumbledore was the only wizard Voldemort feared. Once Dumbledore was a Horcrux, Voldemort was safe because no matter what happened after that, Voldemort would live. From Voldemort’s perspective, while Dumbledore lived, Voldemort’s Horcrux was safe. If Dumbledore died, then there was no other wizard Voldemort feared. It was a win-win situation for Voldemort if he could pull it off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ModernInkling
Your whole theory depends on the statement that Voldemort has never tried to kill Dumbledore, but we have evidence that he has at least twice: In the Ministry of Magic; and when he ordered Draco to kill him.
I just don’t see it that way. Voldemort has made no effort to kill Dumbledore. He goes to great lengths to kill Harry, but not Dumbledore. At the Ministry of Magic, Voldemort did not contrive to fight with Dumbledore, just the opposite. Dumbledore’s arrival was a complete surprise to Voldemort and it was not something Voldemort wanted. In the battle, Voldemort expends a great deal of effort trying to kill Harry. He attacks Dumbledore only because he has no choice. Even then, he possesses Harry and *dares* Dumbledore to kill him by killing Harry. He knows he has other Horcruxes and he knows his Horcrux is in Dumbledore and it’s worth it to him to have Harry out of the way. His entire focus at the Ministry was to get the Prophecy and then to kill Harry. When that failed, he fled and made no further attempt at killing Dumbledore.

As for Draco, we know that the only reason Voldemort gave him the mission was because Voldemort knew Draco would fail. He wanted to punish Lucius by giving Draco a mission that would kill Draco. Narcissa herself says exactly that. She too knows Draco will fail to kill Dumbledore. If Voldemort wanted Dumbledore dead, he would not have ordered that ONLY Draco was to be the one who killed Dumbledore. Voldemort knew Draco wouldn’t be able to do it. Voldemort’s orders are so strict that one of the Death Eaters prevents Fenrir from killing Dumbledore. If Voldemort wanted Dumbledore dead, he would have given the other Death Eater’s the leeway to kill Dumbledore if Draco wasn’t up to it. Instead, as I said, they were FORBIDDEN to kill Dumbledore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannah
the two way mirrors being horcruxes make no sense in my opinion.
The two way mirrors are not Horcruxes. They were intended by Voldemort to be Horcruxes, but his defeat at the Potter’s House stopped him. Dumbledore told Harry that the final Horcrux was to be made with Harry’s death. So when Voldemort attacked the Potters, he either had in his possession or knew where to acquire the object for his final Horcrux. What then happened to that object? Why did Voldemort not use it for his final Horcrux and instead used Nagini?

Voldemort’s *intended* Horcruxes were the ring, the diary, the locket, the cup, Dumbledore, and the mirror. The night he attacked the Potters, he had already successfully created the first 5. With Harry’s death, he intended to make the Ravenclaw mirror into a Horcrux. He did not, at that time, have the mirrors, but he knew they were in the possession of Sirius, and no doubt thought he’d get them. After Voldemort’s defeat and return, Sirius was in Azkaban, so Voldemort had no idea where the mirrors were or if they had been destroyed so he settled for Nagini instead.


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  #10  
Old April 10th, 2007, 6:26 pm
ihamlin35  Male.gif ihamlin35 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos View Post
HBP page 446
"For a second, Harry was on the verge of shouting a pointless warning: He was sure that Voldemort's hand had twitched toward his pocket and his wand; but then the moment had passed, Voldemort had turned away, the door was closing, and he was gone."

Let me emphasize something there: “He was sure that Voldemort’s hand had twitched to his pocket and his wand;” Clearly Dumbledore’s memory has been altered, Harry though, does not yet realize the importance of what he’s seen.

When Voldemort applied for the DADA job, he made Dumbledore a Horcrux, and then used a memory charm to alter Dumbledore’s memory.
Sorry, right here there is no evidence that Voldemort did anything or the sort. His hand twitched toward his pocket/wand, he didn't actually use it. Not to mention, we're talking about the greatest wizard of the age in the prime of his life at this point, I can't see him being made into a Horcrux. Although, I do agree with you on your point of Snape being good.


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Old April 10th, 2007, 6:42 pm
rosetta  Male.gif rosetta is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

If you throw in the wrench of "DIATSSISE" into this theory, the whole mechanism shuts down. I for one firmly believe DIATSSISE and thusly I think it was the unbreakable vow that killed Dumbledore and THAT is why he had to die. Your theory here actually went a long way in helping the DIATSSISE theory by showing that something happened over the summer to Dumbledore that made him know that he had to die soon. The Unbreakable Vow was it.


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  #12  
Old April 10th, 2007, 7:16 pm
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos
I just don’t see it that way. Voldemort has made no effort to kill Dumbledore. He goes to great lengths to kill Harry, but not Dumbledore. At the Ministry of Magic, Voldemort did not contrive to fight with Dumbledore, just the opposite. Dumbledore’s arrival was a complete surprise to Voldemort and it was not something Voldemort wanted. In the battle, Voldemort expends a great deal of effort trying to kill Harry. He attacks Dumbledore only because he has no choice.
Sorry, but that's not correct. Once Dumbledore arrives, Voldy attacked Dumbledore continuously, throwing AK's. Let's not forget Fawkes swallowed an AK that Voldemort shot straight at Dumbledore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosetta View Post
If you throw in the wrench of "DIATSSISE" into this theory, the whole mechanism shuts down. I for one firmly believe DIATSSISE and thusly I think it was the unbreakable vow that killed Dumbledore and THAT is why he had to die. Your theory here actually went a long way in helping the DIATSSISE theory by showing that something happened over the summer to Dumbledore that made him know that he had to die soon. The Unbreakable Vow was it.
Sorry but I don't think that helps DIATSSISE with this particular point. It is more likely that the curse on the ring horcrux -- which Dumbledore tells Harry would have killed him but his own and Snape's skill -- would have killed Dumbledore anyway.

Dumbledore slowed the curse, and Snape "stoppered death" for Dumbledore (mentioned in Snape's first Potions class in SS/PS). But it was a temporary measure. Which is why then Snape makes the unbreakable vow, because Snape has already promised Dumbledore that he would kill him -- to not only secure Snape's place with Voldemort to spy on him, but also to ensure Draco would be spared committing murder, or being killed by Voldemort. Dumbledore was going to die of the ring curse anyway, but under the plan with Snape he could help until the end with defeating Voldemort.


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  #13  
Old April 10th, 2007, 8:18 pm
161581  Female.gif 161581 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

It's a good theory, but I think there's absolutely NO WAY.


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Old April 10th, 2007, 8:32 pm
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

No I can't agree with this theory. For one thing when would LV have had the opportunity to make DD into a Horcrux. DD is the most powerful wizard in the world surely someone would have noticed if he went missing and even if he was captured returning with missing memories would send alarm bells ringing.

Hedwig owl your completely correct it was the curse on the ring that killed DD not the unbreakable vow. DD did mention already to Harry that it was Snape's skill that stopped him from dying. If he had made the vow already it would be impossible for Snape to help DD without breaking the vow.


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Old April 10th, 2007, 9:48 pm
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

That's utterly ridiculous! Dumbledore is not a horcrux!


  #16  
Old April 10th, 2007, 9:48 pm
chakara  Undisclosed.gif chakara is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

I liked part of this theory but feel it's more likely that the horcrux Dumbledore tried to remove from the ring was instead transferred to him. It's a simpler explanation (remember Occam's razor) and still allows for Dumbledore to pressurise Snape into completing his agreement under the unbreakable vow.

The vow wasn't that Snape couldn't help Dumbledore, it was that if Draco should fail THEN he'd take over. When Snape saved DD's life Draco still hadn't attempted to kill DD so Snape was free to act as he pleased.


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Old April 10th, 2007, 10:03 pm
woodlice  Female.gif woodlice is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Good theory, well thought out. What about the potion Dumbledore had to drink at the cave, maybe that caused him to become a horcrux.


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Old April 10th, 2007, 11:37 pm
HeadHeldHigh  Female.gif HeadHeldHigh is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

I really like this theory. it is very well thought out and you have a lot of evidence. I also makes sense. I have to admit, I was a little shaky on my beliefs about Snape's loyalties and I was leaning toward not trusting him only out of prejudice from his past actions, but you have convinced me otherwise.

This has to be the best part though:

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos View Post
That was the post I made in the Identifying Horcrux thread. Here, I’d like to make an addition. That is, Voldemort has never tried to kill Dumbledore. He has never schemed and plotted to kill Dumbledore the way he has schemed to kill Harry. If Voldemort feared Dumbledore, why would he spend so much effort on Harry and ignore Dumbledore? Why didn’t he try to kill Dumbledore long before the Prophecy? Because he didn’t want Dumbledore to die, and he didn’t want Dumbledore to die because Dumbledore was a Horcrux.
It really makes sense. Voldemort only feard Dumbledore, but he never acted upon it. He knew that Dumbledore was the most powerful wizard in the world and was not likely to be killed by anyone. This makes perfect sense!

Theonly thing I don't understand is what you were saying about how LV wanted to make the two-way mirrors a Horcrux, but other than that I agree 100%. It's just like JKR to make everyone think Harry is the horcrux and then twist it around completely. You'd think fans would know that after 6 books of it!


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Old April 11th, 2007, 2:23 am
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

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Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh View Post
I really like this theory. it is very well thought out and you have a lot of evidence. I also makes sense. I have to admit, I was a little shaky on my beliefs about Snape's loyalties and I was leaning toward not trusting him only out of prejudice from his past actions, but you have convinced me otherwise.

This has to be the best part though:



It really makes sense. Voldemort only feard Dumbledore, but he never acted upon it. He knew that Dumbledore was the most powerful wizard in the world and was not likely to be killed by anyone. This makes perfect sense!

Theonly thing I don't understand is what you were saying about how LV wanted to make the two-way mirrors a Horcrux, but other than that I agree 100%. It's just like JKR to make everyone think Harry is the horcrux and then twist it around completely. You'd think fans would know that after 6 books of it!
Then why did he conspire with draco to kill dumbledore if dumbledore was a horcrux?

The theory that dumbledore was a horcruxhas quite a few holes in it, don't you think?


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Old April 11th, 2007, 2:32 am
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

i had some idea like this,but what i thought was that he became a horcrux after drinking the stuff in the cave,that that liquid was some sort of liquid soul,and thats why he asked snape to kill him but then i thought no that is too far fetched.


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