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Dumbledore Was a Horcrux



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 11th, 2007, 1:33 am
Romilda_Vane  Female.gif Romilda_Vane is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

I don't believe that DD was a horcrux.
Spoiler: show
If he was, he must have known because he said "Please...." to Snape right before he was AK'd.
He would have definitely told Harry before they went to the cave and got the locket. Maybe, though, R.A.B. was one-?


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  #22  
Old April 11th, 2007, 1:40 am
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

good theorys. i had a post saying the same thing. but here why i changed my mind...


WHY WOULD LV HAVE DRACO KILL HIS HORCRUX??????


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  #23  
Old April 11th, 2007, 1:42 am
Romilda_Vane  Female.gif Romilda_Vane is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamy_eyes_xox View Post
good theorys. i had a post saying the same thing. but here why i changed my mind...


WHY WOULD LV HAVE DRACO KILL HIS HORCRUX??????
ooh. that's good. maybe he made another one and decided that DD was a bad idea?


  #24  
Old April 11th, 2007, 2:42 am
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

i'm sorry but this theory is rubbish for all the reasons mentioned above


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  #25  
Old April 11th, 2007, 2:51 am
Romilda_Vane  Female.gif Romilda_Vane is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

that's why its a theory....just speculation. nothing serious. and it may be "rubbish" but half the stuff here is! we won't know what's far-fetched and what's not until July 21st.


  #26  
Old April 11th, 2007, 2:58 am
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

welll thats the fun of it,talking of things that could be...
they keep our minds busy till the big day.


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  #27  
Old April 11th, 2007, 3:39 am
lilyseyes  Female.gif lilyseyes is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

The ideas that skeelos have presented while well thought out, and wonderfully laid out have to many holes to be plausible. Dumbledore was at the height of his power when Voldemort came to interview about the DADA job. Yes its true it seems his hand twitched to his wand but it was never used. And Voldemort being Dumbledores sworn enemy, dont you think DD would have put some protection around himself. We all know that DD was a highly accoomplished legillimins (sp) and occlumens. Dont you think that he would have been able to block any spell LV was trying to use upon him if indeed he was trying to turn him into a horcrux. Also, why in the world, would a wizard who fears death more than anything, try and kill DD if indeed he was a horcrux. Hes already lost the diary, which we know he knows about because Lucius told him. Then choose to loose another part of his (in his mind) precious soul, by killing DD. It makes no sense. But it was a very well thought out theory.


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  #28  
Old April 11th, 2007, 4:40 am
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

I agree with lilyseyes, it just doesn't make sense to me that Voldemort would make Dumbledore, or any person for that matter, a horcrux. People can die at any time, technically speaking, so I doubt Voldemort would've taken that risk. And Dumbledore was at a high risk of dying...specifically because Voldemort was out to kill him.

Besides, when would Voldemort have had the opportunity to make Dumbledore a horcrux?


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  #29  
Old April 11th, 2007, 5:47 am
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

People die. This does not mean they are horcruxes. Dumbledore was not a horcrux. The idea that he could have been a horcrux just doesn't add up in my mind.


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  #30  
Old April 11th, 2007, 6:29 am
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Hopefullly I'm not hijacking this thread but if we were to assume that the ring made Dumbledore a horcrux then there's no problem re: LV sending Draco to kill him because LV wouldn't have known.

It would also follow that Dumbledore and Snape knew, Snape's the one that stopped the ring's 'curse' killing DD but he couldn't heal it completely and we can assume that neither could Fawkes.

If it was outside of DD's power to remove the horcrux from himself he would know that he'd have to sacrifice himself in order to destroy it, which is why he argued with Snape saying (I'm paraphrasing Hagrid here) 'and Dumbledore said Snape had agreed to do it and that's all there was to it.'

So, why didn't he tell Harry? Harry had seen Ginny being controlled by the horcrux in Riddle's diary and had false memories implanted in his mind by LV that led to Sirius's death. Harry knows how good LV is at bewitching people.

If you were Harry and you'd just been told that Dumbledore had become a horcrux would you trust him? Especially when you know that DD trusts Snape implicitly? Would you agree to go away, alone, to a cave in the middle of nowhere with him?

I think that DD knew Harry would have doubts so kept his silence and instead threw himself into teaching him as much as he could before Snape had to fulfil the vow.


  #31  
Old April 11th, 2007, 1:26 pm
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Before I get to specific responses, it appears that there are three main objections to the theory.

1. Voldemort tried to kill Dumbledore.
2. Dumbledore was too powerful to be tricked by Voldemort.
3. It just can't be.

For the third category, there's nothing I can say in response to someone who rejects the theory out of hand.
For the second category, I address that in a couple of the responses below.
For the first category, I have addressed that in previous responses, and again in responses below. But also, for those who say the theory doesn't hold up because Voldemort tried to kill Dumbledore, let's step through it nice and slow. I'll start it off by asking this question:

We have seen Voldemort go to great lengths and extreme measures to kill Harry, but what, if any, at any time, are the schemes and plots Voldemort has formulated and put in motion in order to kill Dumbledore?

So does anyone want to field that one? A simple list will do.

With that, on with the specific responses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihamlin35
Sorry, right here there is no evidence that Voldemort did anything or the sort. His hand twitched toward his pocket/wand, he didn't actually use it.
Here is the passage of Dumbledore's memory again:
HBP page 446
"For a second, Harry was on the verge of shouting a pointless warning: He was sure that Voldemort's hand had twitched toward his pocket and his wand; but then the moment had passed, Voldemort had turned away."

If Voldemort had USED his wand and then turned away, it would be a dead giveaway. It would have been painfully obvious that something had happened. One moment Voldemort's hand twitched toward his pocket, the next moment he had turned away. There is a discontinuity there that Harry notices, but he does not yet realize its importance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosetta
If you throw in the wrench of "DIATSSISE" into this theory, the whole mechanism shuts down.
I'm not sure what you mean by the whole mechanism shuts down, and frankly, when I read DIATSSISE I thought "Wha???" I did some searching on it, and at this point I'm not convinced, but I will have to think about it a bit more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HedwigOwl
Sorry, but that's not correct. Once Dumbledore arrives, Voldy attacked Dumbledore continuously, throwing AK's. Let's not forget Fawkes swallowed an AK that Voldemort shot straight at Dumbledore.
Oh yes, the fight at the Ministry. You said it yourself, Once Dumbledore arrives. Voldemort did NOT scheme and plan to get Dumbledore to the Ministry, but once Dumbledore arrived Voldemort had no choice except to fight Dumbledore in order to get to Harry. Dumbledore's appearance at the Ministry was unexpected by Voldemort. Voldemort didn't want him there at all.

When that fight occurred, Voldemort knew he still had at least the locket, the ring, the cup, and probably had made Nagini a Horcrux. In HBP, Dumbledore points out to Harry, Voldemort's relative careless attitude towards his soul due to his making a Horcrux out of the diary which he then gives to Lucius. With 4 other Horcruxes intact, it was worth it to Voldemort to kill Dumbledore at the Ministry if it meant he could then kill Harry.

Voldemort is so determined to kill Harry that he even possesses Harry and dares Dumbledore to kill him by killing Harry. Voldemort is so determined to kill Harry that he is willing to risk becoming Vapormort again, so it should be no surprise that he would be willing in that situation to lose a Horcrux by killing Dumbledore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chakara
I liked part of this theory but feel it's more likely that the horcrux Dumbledore tried to remove from the ring was instead transferred to him. It's a simpler explanation (remember Occam's razor) and still allows for Dumbledore to pressurise Snape into completing his agreement under the unbreakable vow.
Actually, I think if the ring transfered the Horcrux it would complicate matters a great deal. It wouldn't make sense to have a Horcrux in a hidden object that would transfer the Horcrux to any person. The diary was different, it was not hidden with powerful magic protections surrounding it.
Quote:
The vow wasn't that Snape couldn't help Dumbledore, it was that if Draco should fail THEN he'd take over.
I'm really not sure what you're getting at here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
Theonly thing I don't understand is what you were saying about how LV wanted to make the two-way mirrors a Horcrux, but other than that I agree 100%.
Thank you. It's nice that at least one person agrees. As for the mirrors, well I'm not sure what part of it you don't understand. When Voldemort attacked the Potters, he wanted to use Harry's death to make the mirror(s) into a Horcrux after he bought or stole the mirrors from Sirius. After his defeat and return, Voldemort didn't know where the mirrors were, so he couldn't use them to make a Horcrux and he made his final Horcrux with Nagini.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romilda_Vane
He would have definitely told Harry before they went to the cave and got the locket.
I don't see how that would fit at all. Dumbledore knew he had to die. Telling Harry at any time that he was a Horcrux would have caused Harry to interfere with Dumbledore's death. Dumbledore knows that Harry would not sit idly by while Dumbledore died. Dumbledore simply could not do that. He trusted Harry to figure it out after his death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyseyes
And Voldemort being Dumbledores sworn enemy, dont you think DD would have put some protection around himself.
Dumbledore is powerful, but he is not all powerful. At that time, Voldemort had not declared himself openly. It is very possible, and in fact, likely, that Dumbledore did not then suspect that Voldemort would dare to try anything. Also, Voldemort himself is a very powerful wizard. Dumbledore would have died retrieving the ring if Snape had not helped him. It is very possible that Voldemort managed to surprise Dumbledore at the time of the DADA interview.


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  #32  
Old April 11th, 2007, 1:54 pm
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

There is one part where Snape is talking bad about Sirius, at least we think. He was whining to Dumbledore about how Sirius was capable of murder at age 16! Sure he has some resentment, but there may be something deeper to this argument. Maybe Snape would not think himself capable of killing Dumbledore, and he was trying to pass the buck to Sirius, as in "Well, let HIM do it. He is capable."

Oh, and whatever happened to make Dumbledore injure his hand was probably meant to kill him. That is, he went prepared to sacrifice himself to the veil or whatever it was that he did to destroy the ring. He knew it would kill him and He was already prepared to die. Maybe he thought he had told Harry enough information, or he had a way of giving this information to Harry once he was dead. He was prepared to die at this moment, but he lived and was surprised that only his hand was hurt. He should have died, maybe. So he wonders why he didn't die, when he should have. Then maybe he realized that the reason he didn't die was because he himself was a horcrux. Once he realized this, he probably told Snape or someone that he was a Horcrux and he had to die. But instead of dying that very moment that he realized this, he chose to stay alive a bit longer to buy some time for Harry and to tell him some more things personally. I still think he has stuff that he needs to tell Harry though, so he will have that information come forward in his portrait or memories or some way or other.


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  #33  
Old April 11th, 2007, 2:28 pm
Padfoots_godson  Male.gif Padfoots_godson is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos View Post
Before I get to specific responses, it appears that there are three main objections to the theory.

1. Voldemort tried to kill Dumbledore.
2. Dumbledore was too powerful to be tricked by Voldemort.
3. It just can't be.

For the third category, there's nothing I can say in response to someone who rejects the theory out of hand.
For the second category, I address that in a couple of the responses below.
For the first category, I have addressed that in previous responses, and again in responses below. But also, for those who say the theory doesn't hold up because Voldemort tried to kill Dumbledore, let's step through it nice and slow. I'll start it off by asking this question:

We have seen Voldemort go to great lengths and extreme measures to kill Harry, but what, if any, at any time, are the schemes and plots Voldemort has formulated and put in motion in order to kill Dumbledore?

So does anyone want to field that one? A simple list will do.

With that, on with the specific responses.
Well, a simple list would be Draco's mission. But we also know little of what has happened. And Voldemort hasn't tried to trap Harry that often either. Killing Harry has always been a side quest, if you'd like. In SS/PS he is trying to get the Stone, he only tries to kill Harry because Harry is their. In CoS, he get Harry into the chamber to save Ginny, so there's number 1.But, it is only after he starts his misson of killing the muggleborns, and get lucky with Harry finding the Diary. In PoA, Voldemort isn't really any issue. In GoF, He sets a trap to get at Harry, so he could get his body back. Killing Harry was just his little coming back present, so there's number 2. In OOtP He set a trap to get the prophesy. Not to kill Harry. He didn't even want to go to the ministry. And in HBP We see his one attempt to kill Dumbledore. And he, as far as we know, didn't want that trap to kill Harry, he wanted to do that himself.

So really he's tried to trap them about the same amount in the past 6 years.
(Sorry it wasn't a simple list.)


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  #34  
Old April 11th, 2007, 10:07 pm
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos
what, if any, at any time, are the schemes and plots Voldemort has formulated and put in motion in order to kill Dumbledore?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padfoots_godson
Well, a simple list would be Draco's mission.
Quite right!
Voldemort has gone out of his way to kill Harry twice. The original attack and in GoF. Recall also, that Voldemort still has designs on killing Harry because at the end of the attack at the tower it's said that Harry is to be left for Voldemort himself. So there is another attempt on the way.

In all the years that Dumbledore has opposed Voldemort, the ONLY time Voldemort has gone out of his way to kill Dumbledore was to give the mission to Draco. Next question then:

Why did Narcissa visit Snape at Spinner's End?

Again, we don't have to be elaborate, simply the gist of it is sufficient.


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Last edited by skeelos; April 11th, 2007 at 10:17 pm. Reason: Typo
  #35  
Old April 11th, 2007, 10:27 pm
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

I think this is quite a good thread but i can't see Voldemort making DD a horcrux. i mean......the times that voldemort fought DD head on has he ever actually won???? no so how could he make DD a horcrux?

and an addition to my last post.....WHY WOULD LORD VOLDEMORT SEND DRACO ON AN UTMOST IMPORTANT MISSION TO KILL HIS OWN HORCRUX???!!

and an addition to my last post.....WHY WOULD LORD VOLDEMORT SEND DRACO ON AN UTMOST IMPORTANT MISSION TO KILL HIS OWN HORCRUX???!!


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  #36  
Old April 11th, 2007, 11:42 pm
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrance View Post
I think this is quite a good thread but i can't see Voldemort making DD a horcrux. i mean......the times that voldemort fought DD head on has he ever actually won???? no so how could he make DD a horcrux?
As I said earlier, at the time of the DADA interview, Voldemort had not yet shown the extent of his quest for power. Dumbledore did not expect Voldemort to attempt anything in the Headmaster's office.

Quote:
and an addition to my last post.....WHY WOULD LORD VOLDEMORT SEND DRACO ON AN UTMOST IMPORTANT MISSION TO KILL HIS OWN HORCRUX???!!
I have addressed that, and also, I am attempting to step slowly through the logic of it with a series of questions to make it clear.


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  #37  
Old April 12th, 2007, 12:38 am
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

If Dumbledore knew he was a horcrux, then why didn't he tell Harry so that Harry would understand that his mentor must die for the good of the whole? Yes, Harry would have tried to talk him out of it and would have probably raged and stormed and did what he thought was necessary to save Dumbledore, but Dumbledore would have been able to convince Harry of the necessity. I do not say this because I think that Dumbledore is a magic man that can do anything, but because Dumbledore has been able to make Harry understand things--especially necessity and life&death issues--that Harry refused to see or couldn't see before. He had talent in that area, I am sure.

So Dumbledore would have told this to Harry when he counted up the horcruxes. Because he would want to spare Harry pain, and he would want to make sure that Harry did not go off and kill someone that could help him and knew about horcruxes--Snape (assuming he is good and he understood why DD must die according to this theory--just because he ignorantly believed that Snape murdered Dumbledore in cold blood. Dumbledore did not tell Harry that he suspected he was a horcrux. He could have--he had many oppertunities, and he had motives enough--but he did not.

You supported your theory well, skeelos, but you have not converted me. My logic doesn't add up with yours.

Oh, and I doubt that anyone would be able to take Dumbledore and overcome him well enough to perform a memory charm. Dumbledore sees right through things like that. It is my personal belief that Dumbledore has his own, much more effective and non-intrusive than Voldemort's, brand of legilimency. Harry frequently talks of feeling as if he were being "x-rayed" while in Dumbledore's presence. If someone walked into his office with the intent to overpower him, I believe that Dumbledore would be able to sense it. Most of his "legilimency" ability, I think, is just being able to read people. Voldemort wasn't nearly as strong during the DADA interview as he is now, anyway.

Also--The reason that Voldemort has focused so much on killing Harry and not killing Dumbledore is because Harry is much less strong than Dumbledore and should be a quicker job. Killing Dumbledore, I'm sure you will agree, is not an easy task (unless you weaken him with mysterious green potion first--the cheater!). But killing a sixteen-year-old (or 14-year-old, or 15-year old) boy sounds like a much more achievable goal--and you might as well get rid of the easy stuff so you don't have that bothering you while you try to work on the really difficult job. Harry has been maddeningly slippery in the hands of Lord Voldemort, always getting away despite his youth and his "mediocre" (in the words of Snape) level of talent. By constantly getting away he has been goading Voldie on, just daring Voldie to kill him. Harry is the one that got away, you see. That is why Voldemort has been focusing on him and ignoring other, seemingly bigger fish--like Dumbledore.


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Last edited by LeiaShadow; April 12th, 2007 at 12:53 am.
  #38  
Old April 12th, 2007, 1:26 am
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Nice job on putting all this together but I don't think so, nice try though.


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  #39  
Old April 12th, 2007, 3:12 am
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

I agree with HedwigOwl, but some points in this theory is very interesting.
-"11. Which came first, Dumbledore’s injured hand or Dumbledore’s visit to the Dursley’s?
The hand is injured."
DD already now he will die
'I ask only this: that you allow Harry to return, once more, to this house, before his seventeenth birthday, which will ensure that the protection continues until that time - HBP Cap3
He make sure that Harry will be protect

- Harry always be protect ( DD Ministery And why DD The Advance Guard etc) then, why DD will put Harry in risk ? Looking for a hocrux in dagerous place?
I think he new about Draco's plans that night
He drunk the poison to weak him-self end be sure __ Snape can kill him.
'Severus,' said Dumbledore clearly. 'I need Severus ...'

I Forgot - Sorry my horrible english



Last edited by HPEllis; April 12th, 2007 at 3:15 am.
  #40  
Old April 12th, 2007, 3:46 am
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Whoa whoa whoa. I have 2 main questions about all of this.
#1- Where are you getting the information that Dumbledore is Gryffindor's heir?
#2- Where are you getting the information that the 2-way mirrors are Ravenclaw's? That seems really far-fetched to me.

Besides all that, I still don't go with it. Sorry. It goes way too much on presumptions than things in the books for me.


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