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Dumbledore Was a Horcrux



 
 
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  #41  
Old April 16th, 2007, 9:14 pm
skeelos  Undisclosed.gif skeelos is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos
what, if any, at any time, are the schemes and plots Voldemort has formulated and put in motion in order to kill Dumbledore?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padfoots_godson
Well, a simple list would be Draco's mission.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos
Why did Narcissa visit Snape at Spinner's End?
Well, now. There were a number of people who said they didn’t believe the theory because Voldemort has tried to kill Dumbledore. Analyzing it in steps to see if it holds up and nobody wants to try tackle that question? The answer doesn’t have to go into a great deal of detail, in fact simpler is better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeiaShadow
If Dumbledore knew he was a horcrux, then why didn't he tell Harry so that Harry would understand that his mentor must die for the good of the whole? Yes, Harry would have tried to talk him out of it and would have probably raged and stormed and did what he thought was necessary to save Dumbledore, but Dumbledore would have been able to convince Harry of the necessity.
Harry is a much more persuasive person than Dumbledore. For example, Dumbledore knew he could not persuade Slughorn to return to Hogwarts, he needed Harry to do that, which Harry did. Secondly, Dumbledore would not have told Harry, because as you said, Dumbledore would have wanted to spare Harry pain. If Dumbledore had to die, then no matter what Harry would experience the pain of that loss whether he’s told or not. By not telling Harry, Dumbledore spares Harry the pain of a protracted suffering waiting for it to happen. Dumbledore knows that Harry would be persistent about delaying Dumbledore’s death as long as possible, and remember that Dumbledore did not fear death. Also, that’s Dumbldore’s M.O. In every case, Harry is given all the facts only after Harry has done what needs to be done.

Quote:
So Dumbledore would have told this to Harry when he counted up the horcruxes. Because he would want to spare Harry pain, and he would want to make sure that Harry did not go off and kill someone that could help him and knew about horcruxes--Snape (assuming he is good and he understood why DD must die according to this theory--just because he ignorantly believed that Snape murdered Dumbledore in cold blood.
And that’s precisely why Dumbledore immobilized Harry at the tower. To prevent Harry from injuring Draco or Snape. There is no reason for Dumbledore to immobilize Harry while the school is under attack except to protect others from Harry.

Quote:
Oh, and I doubt that anyone would be able to take Dumbledore and overcome him well enough to perform a memory charm. Dumbledore sees right through things like that. It is my personal belief that Dumbledore has his own, much more effective and non-intrusive than Voldemort's, brand of legilimency.
If that’s true, maybe you can explain how Voldemort was able to hide from Dumbledore for an entire school year right under Dumbledore’s nose in the first book.

Quote:
Also--The reason that Voldemort has focused so much on killing Harry and not killing Dumbledore is because Harry is much less strong than Dumbledore and should be a quicker job.
All the more reason for Voldemort to construct elaborate schemes for his Death Eaters to kill Dumbledore, which he has not done, instead of elaborate schemes to kill Harry, which he has done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HPEllis
'I ask only this: that you allow Harry to return, once more, to this house, before his seventeenth birthday, which will ensure that the protection continues until that time - HBP Cap3
He make sure that Harry will be protect
Very true. To make sure Harry will be protected. The real question is this. In every book from 2 to 6, Harry must return to the Dursley’s after the school year so that he remains protected. The difference in book 6 from books 2 through 5 is that Dumbledore makes it a point to visit the Dursley’s at the start of term to make sure that the Dursley’s will accept Harry at the end of the term. So that raises the question: Why is the sixth year different from the previous years?

Why the sudden need for Dumbledore to visit the Dursley’s? And why does he do it at the start of term instead of the end of term which gives the Dursley’s a whole school year to back out? To me, that’s the action of a man who knows he will not be there at the end of the school term to visit the Dursley’s.

Quote:
- Harry always be protect ( DD Ministery And why DD The Advance Guard etc) then, why DD will put Harry in risk ? Looking for a hocrux in dagerous place?
I think he new about Draco's plans that night
He drunk the poison to weak him-self end be sure __ Snape can kill him.
'Severus,' said Dumbledore clearly. 'I need Severus ...'
Sorry if I misunderstand your point here, but yes, I think he knew of Draco’s orders to kill him all year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockstar
Whoa whoa whoa. I have 2 main questions about all of this.
#1- Where are you getting the information that Dumbledore is Gryffindor's heir?
There is nothing specific that says oh yeah Dumbledore is Gryffindor’s heir. There are a number of things though that point me in that direction. At some point, I’ll post it as part of how Dumbledore meets the 4 criteria of a Horcrux. If Dumbledore was the heir of Gryffindor, are you saying you agree he was a Horcrux?

Quote:
#2- Where are you getting the information that the 2-way mirrors are Ravenclaw's? That seems really far-fetched to me.
Rather than repeat it, here’s a link to what I posted elsewhere on the mirrors:
linkola


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  #42  
Old April 16th, 2007, 10:06 pm
The_Scifanac  Male.gif The_Scifanac is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

As for Harry being able to persuade Slughorn where Dumbledore couldn't, the only reason why Harry could do it was becasue of the Felix Felicis, and because Slughorn was Drunk! So that vanishes any idea that Dumbledore never told harry becasue he would be affriad Harry would be able to talk him out of it.

Dumbledore isn't a Horcrux. It just doesn't make any sense. How would Voldemort have ever gotten an oportunity to make Dumbledore a Horcrux? and besides, Dumbledore says that as far as Voldemort Knows, he is the only one who knows about his horcruxes. And the very last person Voldemort would want to know about his Horcruxes is Dumbledore. So how could Voldemort make Dumbledore a Horcrux without leading Dumbledore to think that he had more? I think it's a near enough imposibility that you can make a horcrux by accident. Without his Horcruxes,Voldemort would be a mortal Man and Dumbledore is the only wizard he ever feared. I think Voldemort would take deliberate care to make sure that Dumbledore would have no way of knowing about his Horcruxes.

Another thing. Dumbledore had already know that Voldemort had made his diary a Horcrux. but he had been waiting for proof that he hade made more from Slughorn's memory. This ties into the whole "This is also proof that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore as well" scheme. The Arguement that Hagrid overheard between Snape and Dumbledore was before Dumbldore knew for shure that Voldemort had made multiple Horcruxes. So this means either one of two things. ONE, if the argument they were having was about Snape agreeing to Kill Dumbledore, why would Dumbledore want Snape to kill him if he didn't know he was a Horcrux? TWO, if the Arguement was about Snape making investigations into Slytherin to the source of the cursed necklace and poisoned Mead, that would suggest that Snape was trying to buy time for Draco buy procrastinating the investigation. either way, it goes against major aspects of your arguement, skeelos.

There can be any number of reasons Why Dumbledore would alow himself to be killed and thus any number of reasons why he would imobilize Harry. Afterall, the death eaters would just as soon attack Harry as Dumbledore, and Harry is the only one who can kill Voldemort after all, so Dumbledore has to protect him. Maybe he wanted it to look like there was no body else there, and imporve the overall picture of it looking like they had really tricked Dumbledore. And remember as far as Voldemort knows, he's the only one who knows about his Horcruxes. if the deatheaters reported back to Voldemort that Dumbledore had taken HArry with him on is nightime excursion. Voldemort would have gotten very suspicious as to what they were up to and be more protective of his Horcruxes from then on out. And the last thing Dumbledore wants to do is make it more difficult for Harry to destroy the remaining Horcruxes. So there!

This also has similar problems with the theory that Harry is a Horcrux. If there was a piece of Voldemort's Soul in Dumbledore, Voldemort would be able to exert some measure of control over Dumbledore, which he doesn't. Dumbledore, with his heart so strinkingly opposite to Voldemort that the difference is night and day, would have felt some kind of agony, similar to what Harry had felt in the Atrium of the Ministry of Magic when Voldemort possesed him that pain was "pain beyond imagining, pain past endurance." If Dumbledore was a Horcrux he would be in pain like that all the time, and he clearly wasn't in pain like that. Even Dumbledore with his supreme magical and physical will and power, wouldn't be able to act casually whilst in unimaginable pain.


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  #43  
Old April 16th, 2007, 11:15 pm
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

I'd have to respectfully disagree with the idea that Dumbledore is a horcrux for many of the reasons that The_Scifanac states above. I don't believe Voldemort would have wanted Dumbledore of all people to know of the fact that he was making horcruxes, so I don't think he'd have wanted to make Dumbledore one. Also, I got the feeling that Voldemort has wanted Dumbledore dead for a long time. So it wouldn't make sense to make him a horcrux because then he'd have to keep Dumbledore alive to protect him. In general it just doesn't seem like a good idea in my opinion to store a bit of your very soul inside your bitter enemies - it just doesn't seem like a safe thing to do. And finally, I agree that there really wouldn't have been any opportunity that we've seen for Voldemort to make Dumbledore a horcrux. So in the end, I'd have to say that Dumbledore was probably not a horcrux.


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  #44  
Old April 17th, 2007, 1:46 am
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos
If that’s true, maybe you can explain how Voldemort was able to hide from Dumbledore for an entire school year right under Dumbledore’s nose in the first book.
Voldemort is also an Occlumens. He began shielding his mind from Harry after the incident at the Ministry. Harry has not been able to venture into Voldemort's thoughts since then. It would be a piece of cake for Voldemort to hide in the background of Quirrell's mind, not to mention the fact that there would be no reason for Dumbledore to use Legilimency on Quirrell.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos
All the more reason for Voldemort to construct elaborate schemes for his Death Eaters to kill Dumbledore, which he has not done, instead of elaborate schemes to kill Harry, which he has done.
Killing Dumbledore had not been a priority for Voldemort, becoming immortal was his prime focus, along with controlling the entire wizarding world. That was his path until he heard the prophecy.

And I disagree that Voldemort has constructed elaborate schemes to kill Harry. The first plan was simple, control an insider (Wormtail) and then just walk in and kill everyone, including Harry.

In CoS, there was no plan to kill Harry. There was a plan to get the Sorcerer's Stone to regain his body. Harry got in the way, but he wasn't Voldemort's target.

In PoA, no plot by Voldy against Harry.

In GoF, elaborate plot, yes -- but to secure Harry's blood for regenerating his body because Voldy thought it would give him extra protection. He didn't need Harry's blood specifically, just an enemy wizard's blood. Killing Harry was secondary to the plan, not primary.

In OoP, Voldy's plan was to get Harry to retrieve the prophecy so that the DE's could take it from Harry and give it to Voldy. Again, killing Harry is not the primary aim, the prophecy was.

In HBP, still no elaborate plan to kill Harry. In fact, he has orders to the DE's to leave him alone, that Voldy wants him -- eventually. The main target is Dumbledore.

Voldemort may not have made any elaborate plans to kill Dumbledore, but he sure casts a lot of AK's when he does see him. Same with Harry -- except for the first time at Godric's Hollow, Voldemort just takes his opportunities when the come, but he has not made any elaborate plans to kill Harry.


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Last edited by HedwigOwl; April 17th, 2007 at 1:48 am.
  #45  
Old April 17th, 2007, 8:56 am
Silkeng  Female.gif Silkeng is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

This is a really interesting theory. I can see where it has some realm of possiblity but I am concerned about a few points. The most troubling is Voldemort ordering Draco to kill Dumbledore. The last thing he would want would be a destruction of one of his horcruxes. He may not have thought Draco could accomplish it, but Snape taking the unbreakable vow to do just that makes Dumbledore's death rather inevitable. Voldemort didn't order Snape, but he must have known about it, since I believe Bellatrix is unable to keep a secret, and especially about Snape whom she doesn't trust. Also, if the killing of Dumbledore wasn't what Voldemort wanted, there is no way Snape would have done it then ran away from Hogwarts. He would have come clean, because he would have known that Voldemort would be after his head.
I personally believe that neither Dumbledore or harry are a horcrux, leave it to a gryffindor to kill themselves to stop evil! It would be a waste of a horcrux, in my opinion.


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  #46  
Old April 17th, 2007, 9:23 am
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

I seriously doubt that DD was a horcrux. In addition to all of the evidence against the idea that he is one, we know that DD is close to 1840. I doubt that he had many years left on his life, so why would Voldy make a Horcrux out of someone who is almost dead? I would have to believe that both souls (DD and the horcrux) would be freed from the body when it dies, and would therefore be forever lost.


  #47  
Old April 17th, 2007, 10:35 am
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

I think Dumbledore would have known, don't you?


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  #48  
Old April 17th, 2007, 11:53 am
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Whoa. Wow. I don't even know what to say. Good theory, and good thinking about this, but I just don't think it could be possible.

Watch, now I'm going to be proven wrong in the next book and I'll look like an idiot .


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  #49  
Old April 17th, 2007, 8:34 pm
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Bella wouldnt keep anythingfrom voldemort and if Voldemort had found out that snape had made an unbreakable vow to kill one of his Horcruxes, Voldemort would have been pretty ****** off. And I dont think we would have seen any more of snape. Srry I dont agree with your theory


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  #50  
Old April 17th, 2007, 8:40 pm
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Gee, I thought the mods closed this thread ages ago. Just nonsense.


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  #51  
Old April 18th, 2007, 2:48 am
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Dumbledore a horcrux? Absoutley not. Lets give the dear wizzard some credit. Please don't insult Dumbledore's intelligence.


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  #52  
Old April 18th, 2007, 4:53 am
Eugenides  Male.gif Eugenides is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Although I don't personally believe that Dumbledore was a Horcrux, it is a possibility. I am going to attempt give possible answers to some of the questions.

1.)Why would Voldemort decide to have Draco kill Dumbledore, knowing that doing so would destroy one horcrux?

My guess is that he did not expect Draco to be successful, after Dumbledore was the greatest wizard of the age. Possibly he could have intended for Draco to die as revenge for Lucius' failures. Also he had no way of knowing Dumbledore
would be so weak, as he thought his horcrux's secure.

2.) What would stop Dumbledore from killing himself and destroying the horcrux as soon as he found out he was it?

Kill two birds with one stone- get rid of the horcrux and further prove Snape's loyalty to Voldemort.

3.)If LV had DD at his mercy enabling him to cast the Horcrux spell on him, why wouldent he just kill him?

My guess is that because of the usefullness of having the greatest living wizard as a horcrux. No other horcrux could ever be so secure. The only flaw was that, according to the theory, Dumbledore recovered his memory somehow.

4.)Your whole theory depends on the statement that Voldemort has never tried to kill Dumbledore, but we have evidence that he has at least twice: In the Ministry of Magic; and when he ordered Draco to kill him.

Possibly in the ministry he was counting on Dumbledores vast knowledge of and proficiency at defensive magic.

The only thing I don't think really has any logic at all to back it up is the Two-Way Mirrors part of the theory. Otherwise, very well thought out.

P.S. I don't think Snape is loyal, but i suppose it is possible, if not plausible.


  #53  
Old April 18th, 2007, 7:11 am
Great_Prasanna  Male.gif Great_Prasanna is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos View Post
FREEDOM! I have been released from the miasma of cups, mirrors, wands, tiaras, and goodness knows what else and all their repetitive permutations which forms a mountain of clutter to put even the Room of Requirement to the test. I have been cast OUT of the “Identifying & Tracking Down the Remaining Horcruxes” thread:



Clearly then, I’ve been delivered to a new thread apart from the other Horcrux theories. I’ve chosen what I hope is the most efficient way to start at this point, which is , I’ll remove my opening post from the Horcrux thread, and recreate it here with minor modification, and here it is:

1. Is Snape loyal to Voldemort or Dumbledore?
Dumbledore. This is THE critical question. No other question comes close. The single most compelling hard evidence for the answer is in the first book when Snape is trying to counter-jinx Harry’s broom. Snape’s excuses to the DE’s completely fail to explain his action in trying to counter-jinx Harry’s broom. There simply is no reason for him to do this except that he is loyal to Dumbledore. The whole case for identifying the unknown Horcrux rests with this. If you don’t think Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, spare yourself the rest of this post.

2. If Draco failed to kill Dumbledore, did Snape have a loophole to get out of killing Dumbledore even though Snape took the Vow?
No. Bella accused Snape of this very thing, but even she was convinced by the Vow. Once Snape took the Vow either Dumbledore must die or Snape must die.

3. Since Snape is loyal to Dumbledore and the Vow meant one of them had to die, why did Snape take the Vow?

Because he already knew Dumbledore had to die. It’s the only reasonable explanation. He even said, “I think he means for me to do it in the end.” The word “he” does not refer to Voldemort it refers to Dumbledore himself. Dumbledore means for Snape to do it in the end.

4. Would Snape have taken the Unbreakable Vow if he didn’t already know that Dumbledore had to die?
No. There is just no way. He had plenty of very good reasons to give Bella and Narcissa for not taking the Vow. He could have headed off the whole thing simply by insisting that Voldemort’s orders be kept secret, and Snape is plenty smart to have done that. Even Bella was backing him up on keeping the orders secret. Instead, he volunteered the information that he already knew of the plan. If Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, he can’t possibly take the Vow except for one reason and one reason only. He already knew Dumbledore had to die.

5. How did Snape know Dumbledore had to die?
Dumbledore must have told him. This was the task the two of them argued about later by the woods and Hagrid overheard. Snape did not want to go through with it, but Dumbledore insisted.

***************************
There’s the first piece of the puzzle. Dumbledore decided he had to die. He asked Snape to kill him and Snape reluctantly agreed. But why? Why would Dumbledore decide he has to die?
***************************

6. Did something happen in any of the books before HBP that would cause Dumbledore to realize he had to die?
No. Whatever it was, it did not occur prior to HBP.

7. Did Snape take the Vow before or after the start of term?
Before.

8. So it happened after the end of the fifth year and before the start of the sixth year. Something happened during summer break that caused Dumbledore to realize he had to die?
Yes. Snape took the Vow before start of term and we’ve already decided he could only take the Vow because Dumbledore realized he had to die. That could only mean something happened during summer break that caused Dumbledore to realize he had to die.

***************************
So there’s the second piece of the puzzle. Something happened during summer break that caused Dumbledore to realize he had to die. Let’s take a look at what happened over the summer.
***************************

9. Which came first, Dumbledore’s injured hand or Snape’s Unbreakable Vow?
The hand is injured.

10. Other than Dumbledore’s hand injury, did anything else happen with Dumbledore during summer break?
Yes. Dumbledore visited the Dursley’s, and Dumbledore and Harry went to hire Slughorn to be the new DADA.

11. Which came first, Dumbledore’s injured hand or Dumbledore’s visit to the Dursley’s?
The hand is injured.

12. So of the three things that we know happened with Dumbledore during summer break, which one caused Dumbledore to realize he had to die?
His injured hand. First, his hand was injured, then he went to the Dursley’s which he had never done prior to the start of a term before, and then he goes to get Slughorn. The event must have been the one that injured his hand. There’s simply no other choice.

***************************
There’s the third piece of the puzzle. Whatever caused Dumbledore to realize he had to die was related to what happened to his hand.
***************************

13. Did Dumbledore identify a specific object for each of the Horcruxes?
No. There is one unaccounted for that Dumbledore is vague about. It could be a Ravenclaw item or a Gryffindor item.

14. Did Dumbledore’s hand injury have something to do with a Horcrux?
Yes. We don’t know the details, but it happened either retrieving the Horcrux or destroying the part of soul within it. His hand was damaged because of Voldemort’s Horcrux in Dumbledore. It was this action which finally revealed to Dumbledore that he himself was a Horcrux. Being a Horcrux, Dumbledore knew he had to die in order for Voldemort to be defeated. It is the only reasonable justification possible for Dumbledore to realize he had to die.

15. Can a Horcrux be placed in another living thing?
Yes. Dumbledore, the voice of JKR, says Nagini is a Horcrux, and there’s no reason to doubt it.

16. Can a part of soul be placed in another person?
Yes. This is not certain, but there is evidence. Voldemort possesses Harry in OOP, and Voldemort lives off of Quirrel in the first book.

17. Is there a way Voldemort could have caused Dumbledore to forget the ceremony which made him a Horcrux?
Yes. See Lockhart and memory charms in Chamber of Secrets, and recall that Voldemort is a master of that sort of thing. He is even capable of altering people’s memory to the point that they will admit to something as horrible as a murder which they did not commit. Dumbledore’s memory has been altered which Harry notices in the Pensieve:

HBP page 446
"For a second, Harry was on the verge of shouting a pointless warning: He was sure that Voldemort's hand had twitched toward his pocket and his wand; but then the moment had passed, Voldemort had turned away, the door was closing, and he was gone."

Let me emphasize something there: “He was sure that Voldemort’s hand had twitched to his pocket and his wand;” Clearly Dumbledore’s memory has been altered, Harry though, does not yet realize the importance of what he’s seen.

When Voldemort applied for the DADA job, he made Dumbledore a Horcrux, and then used a memory charm to alter Dumbledore’s memory.

18. But wait, Dumbledore said the remaining Horcrux was something of Ravenclaw or Gryffindor. How does Dumbledore fit with that?

Harry is not the heir of Gryffindor, but Dumbledore was.

***************************
There you have it. Dumbledore was a Horcrux. As an added bonus to those who suffered the drudgery of reading all this way, the Ravenclaw item which Voldemort wanted to make into a Horcrux with Harry’s death was none other than the two way mirrors one of which Sirius gave to Harry. The mirrors being inaccessible to Voldemort upon his return, Voldemort had to settle for Nagini as his final Horcrux.
***************************

That was the post I made in the Identifying Horcrux thread. Here, I’d like to make an addition. That is, Voldemort has never tried to kill Dumbledore. He has never schemed and plotted to kill Dumbledore the way he has schemed to kill Harry. If Voldemort feared Dumbledore, why would he spend so much effort on Harry and ignore Dumbledore? Why didn’t he try to kill Dumbledore long before the Prophecy? Because he didn’t want Dumbledore to die, and he didn’t want Dumbledore to die because Dumbledore was a Horcrux.


WOW! YOU'RE MY EXACT REPLICA! THIS IS THE SAME THEORY WHICH I BELIEVE, ALTHOUGH THERE ARE SOME MODIFICATIONS.( If you want the modifications, owl me.)

Excellet, to find someone with my own mind....

Dumbledore was a horcrux and that's a very good move by Voldemort, because Dumbledore is very difficult to kill, and if someone wanted to destroy the horcrux, they had to kill Dumbledore. So, the loss of the horcrux would make up for the gain of Dumbledore's life.

I support this theory, it also says that Snape's still on the good side.


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  #54  
Old April 18th, 2007, 1:01 pm
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Huh??????No way!!!! I really don't think Dumbledore was a horcrux. I mean, how would Voldemort be able to do it? DD was a great wizard, even greater than Voldemort. Wouldn't he know if Voldemort did it??? I believe none of the horcruxes are people. People die eventually and Voldemort wouldn't want his horcruxes to be destroyed just like that.


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Harry raised his eyebrows. "Funny," he said, "you'd think I'd have stopped walking around..."


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  #55  
Old April 18th, 2007, 1:04 pm
Hinoema  Female.gif Hinoema is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

I think Dumbledore would have something to say if Voldemort tried to cast the Horcrux spell on him.


  #56  
Old April 19th, 2007, 8:34 pm
The_Scifanac  Male.gif The_Scifanac is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

I just thought of some thing else that goes against the concerned theory. A big part of Skeelos argue ment is that Voldemort, knowing that he had made Dumbledore into a horcrux, didn't ever try to directly kill him. He also had know that no death eater would ever have a chance of beating Dumbledore. But in the Atrium of the Ministry of Magic, he expressly says to Dumbledore: "[by the time the aurors arrive] I shall be gone, and you dead".

Sounds like Voldemort wanted to kill Dumbledore to me.


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  #57  
Old April 20th, 2007, 3:29 pm
skeelos  Undisclosed.gif skeelos is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Thanks for the kind words Eugenides and Great_Prasanna

Quote:
Originally Posted by HedwigOwl
It would be a piece of cake for Voldemort to hide in the background of Quirrell's mind, not to mention the fact that there would be no reason for Dumbledore to use Legilimency on Quirrell.
Exactly! Ah it is so nice to have someone who actually bothers to discuss things. Voldemort could hide right under Dumbledore’s nose for just as you say. In other words, an unsuspecting Dumbledore can be caught unawares by the highly skilled Voldemort, which is precisely what happened when Voldemort applied for the DADA job. Dumbledore did not suspect Tom Riddle to try anything in the headmaster’s office, and Riddle caught him by surprise.

Quote:
The first plan was simple, control an insider
Heh, simple to say certainly, but not simple to do. Even so, elaborate or simple, clearly a plan was put in motion by Voldemort to kill Harry.

Quote:
In GoF, elaborate plot, yes -- but to secure Harry's blood for regenerating his body because Voldy thought it would give him extra protection. He didn't need Harry's blood specifically, just an enemy wizard's blood. Killing Harry was secondary to the plan, not primary.
I have to disagree here. Harry’s blood was needed for what reason? To bypass Lily’s protection. Why was that important? So Voldemort could kill Harry. Very definitely extreme measures taken so he can kill Harry.

So in a span of about 15 years, about 10 of which he was unable to do anything at all let alone try to kill Harry, Voldemort has twice planned and schemed to kill Harry, and certainly another attempt is coming. Compare that to the more than 50 years since Riddle left and how many times Voldemort has planned and schemed to kill Dumbledore.

Only once has Voldemort planned to kill Dumbledore. And let’s look at that plan. I’ll ask the question again, Why did Narcissa visit Snape at Spinner’s End?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silkeng
Also, if the killing of Dumbledore wasn't what Voldemort wanted, there is no way Snape would have done it then ran away from Hogwarts. He would have come clean, because he would have known that Voldemort would be after his head.
Excellent! Thanks. I hadn’t been able to fit this in to any of my previous posts. This is a perfect explanation of why Snape went crazy mad when Harry called him a coward. Snape knows Dumbledore is a Horcrux, and he knows Voldemort is going to be angry at him for killing Dumbledore. He has put his life on the line with Voldemort because he destroyed one of Voldemort’s Horcruxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IgoRetla
Gee, I thought the mods closed this thread ages ago. Just nonsense.
I love posts like this. Thanks so much for the in depth analysis and discussion. Check my sig.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Scifanac
But in the Atrium of the Ministry of Magic, he expressly says to Dumbledore: "[by the time the aurors arrive] I shall be gone, and you dead".
And again, when confronted by Dumbledore, who he did not expect or want to be there, Voldemort had no choice but to fight Dumbledore in order to kill Harry. With known Horcruxes working, Voldemort was willing to lose one (Dumbledore) if it meant he could then immediately kill Harry.


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  #58  
Old April 20th, 2007, 7:24 pm
ModernInkling  Female.gif ModernInkling is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos View Post
So in a span of about 15 years, about 10 of which he was unable to do anything at all let alone try to kill Harry, Voldemort has twice planned and schemed to kill Harry, and certainly another attempt is coming. Compare that to the more than 50 years since Riddle left and how many times Voldemort has planned and schemed to kill Dumbledore.

Only once has Voldemort planned to kill Dumbledore. And let’s look at that plan. I’ll ask the question again, Why did Narcissa visit Snape at Spinner’s End?
Actually, we have no canon evidence that Voldemort has only tried to kill Dumbledore once. We have only seen it happen once, but that does not necessarily mean that that was the only time.

Besides, even if he only did try it once, it has been reinforced many times that Dumbledore is the only one Voldemort ever feared

And we know why Narcissa visited Snape - to beg him to help Draco.

Sorry, I really don't think this theory could be true, for all the reasons stated above by other people. If I'm wrong, I will indeed remember you when reading DH


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  #59  
Old April 21st, 2007, 2:11 am
skeelos  Undisclosed.gif skeelos is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by ModernInkling
Actually, we have no canon evidence that Voldemort has only tried to kill Dumbledore once. We have only seen it happen once, but that does not necessarily mean that that was the only time.
Well, I think you're turning it on its head. For example, there is nothing that says that giant purple giraffes with pink polka dots do not roam the streets of London devouring Muggles. We can only go by what is actually written and then hopefully construct a reasonable theory from the clues given. What is actually written shows that Voldemort has planned to kill Dumbledore once and only once.

Quote:
Besides, even if he only did try it once, it has been reinforced many times that Dumbledore is the only one Voldemort ever feared.
Very true and it is another reason for Voldemort to make Dumbledore a Horcrux. Voldemort fears Dumbledore. Voldemort wants immortality. From Voldemort's point of view only Dumbledore poses a serious threat to him. So he can either try to kill Dumbledore, or he can try to finally get one up on Dumbledore and make Dumbledore into a living "trophy", ensuring that as long as Dumbledore lives Voldemort will live because of the Horcrux in Dumbledore. It is a win-win situation for Voldemort. If Dumbledore lives, Voldemort lives because of the Horcrux. If/when Dumbledore dies, then Voldemort has no other wizard to fear.

Quote:
And we know why Narcissa visited Snape - to beg him to help Draco.
True enough, but let's get a little more specific.

HBP page 34:
Quote:
"Then I am right, he has chosen Draco in revenge!" choked Narcissa. "He does not mean him to succeed, he wants him to be killed trying!"
Let's replace the pronouns to make it absolutely clear:

"Voldemort does not mean Draco to succeed [in killing Dumbledore], Voldemort wants Draco to be killed trying."

The so called mission to kill Dumbledore is nothing of the sort. It is a mission to get Draco killed. Voldemort doesn't want Dumbledore dead, Voldemort wants Draco dead as a punishment to Lucius.


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  #60  
Old April 21st, 2007, 3:14 am
ModernInkling  Female.gif ModernInkling is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos View Post
Well, I think you're turning it on its head. For example, there is nothing that says that giant purple giraffes with pink polka dots do not roam the streets of London devouring Muggles. We can only go by what is actually written and then hopefully construct a reasonable theory from the clues given. What is actually written shows that Voldemort has planned to kill Dumbledore once and only once.
Actually, since the story is mainly about Harry and from Harry's point of view, there is no reason for us to know whether Voldemort has made multiple other attacks on Dumbledore. I think he probably has, but you're right, there is no evidence of it.

Quote:
Very true and it is another reason for Voldemort to make Dumbledore a Horcrux. Voldemort fears Dumbledore. Voldemort wants immortality. From Voldemort's point of view only Dumbledore poses a serious threat to him. So he can either try to kill Dumbledore, or he can try to finally get one up on Dumbledore and make Dumbledore into a living "trophy", ensuring that as long as Dumbledore lives Voldemort will live because of the Horcrux in Dumbledore. It is a win-win situation for Voldemort. If Dumbledore lives, Voldemort lives because of the Horcrux. If/when Dumbledore dies, then Voldemort has no other wizard to fear.
You make a good point that it would be a smart thing for Voldemort to try to do, but I highly doubt it actually happened. There is a reason why Voldy is scared of Dumbledore - He's an extremely powerful wizard. I just can't believe that something like that could happen the way you said, right under Dumbledore's nose, without him noticing.

Quote:
True enough, but let's get a little more specific.

HBP page 34:

Let's replace the pronouns to make it absolutely clear:

"Voldemort does not mean Draco to succeed [in killing Dumbledore], Voldemort wants Draco to be killed trying."

The so called mission to kill Dumbledore is nothing of the sort. It is a mission to get Draco killed. Voldemort doesn't want Dumbledore dead, Voldemort wants Draco dead as a punishment to Lucius.
I don't see how replacing the pronouns makes a difference; there was never any lack of clarity there. (for me, anyway) Voldemort probably did not mean for Draco to succeed; he did indeed want to punish Lucius. However, as Snape says, Voldemort means for Snape to do it in the end. Besides, why would even Voldemort set Draco the task if it was something he did not want done? He had to have known that there was some possibility of Draco succeeding, so why on earth would he take that chance?


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"Dragons will wander about the waste places, and the phoenix will soar from her nest of fire into the air.
We shall lay our hands upon the basilisk, and see the jewel in the toad's head.
Champing his gilded oats, the Hippogriff will stand in our stalls,
and over our heads will float the Blue Bird, singing of beautiful and impossible things,
of things that are lovely and that never happen, of things that are not and that should be."
- Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying
 
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