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Dumbledore Was a Horcrux



 
 
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  #61  
Old April 21st, 2007, 3:32 am
LockhartsGuru  Male.gif LockhartsGuru is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos View Post
That is, Voldemort has never tried to kill Dumbledore. He has never schemed and plotted to kill Dumbledore the way he has schemed to kill Harry. If Voldemort feared Dumbledore, why would he spend so much effort on Harry and ignore Dumbledore? Why didnít he try to kill Dumbledore long before the Prophecy? Because he didnít want Dumbledore to die, and he didnít want Dumbledore to die because Dumbledore was a Horcrux.
Well thought out theory, mate. However, I rather think that DD was a bit too clever to fall for that sort of thing. Also, I think the reason for Voldy not actively looking to take out DD (before book six that is) is that DD was just way too powerful, and that Voldy feared him. Fear is a big motivator. Remember.. Fear, Anger, Hate = Dark Side!


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  #62  
Old April 21st, 2007, 3:46 am
AL_Patterson  Male.gif AL_Patterson is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

A well thought out theory, definitely well thought out. But there's just no chance. Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard of all time, Voldie would not risk making him an actual horcrux.


  #63  
Old April 21st, 2007, 4:34 am
thru_n_thru  Female.gif thru_n_thru is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos View Post
***************************
There’s the third piece of the puzzle. Whatever caused Dumbledore to realize he had to die was related to what happened to his hand.
***************************
Up until here everything seems quite logical in this argument, based on the premise that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos View Post
His hand was damaged because of Voldemort’s Horcrux in Dumbledore. It was this action which finally revealed to Dumbledore that he himself was a Horcrux. Being a Horcrux, Dumbledore knew he had to die in order for Voldemort to be defeated. It is the only reasonable justification possible for Dumbledore to realize he had to die.
This is where we leave the realm of logic and enter the realm of pure speculation. There have been other speculative reasons given for why Dumbledore had to die and knew it that make more sense than Dumbledore being a Horcrux.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos View Post
17. Is there a way Voldemort could have caused Dumbledore to forget the ceremony which made him a Horcrux?
Yes. See Lockhart and memory charms in Chamber of Secrets, and recall that Voldemort is a master of that sort of thing. He is even capable of altering people’s memory to the point that they will admit to something as horrible as a murder which they did not commit. Dumbledore’s memory has been altered which Harry notices in the Pensieve:

HBP page 446
"For a second, Harry was on the verge of shouting a pointless warning: He was sure that Voldemort's hand had twitched toward his pocket and his wand; but then the moment had passed, Voldemort had turned away, the door was closing, and he was gone."

Let me emphasize something there: “He was sure that Voldemort’s hand had twitched to his pocket and his wand;” Clearly Dumbledore’s memory has been altered, Harry though, does not yet realize the importance of what he’s seen.

When Voldemort applied for the DADA job, he made Dumbledore a Horcrux, and then used a memory charm to alter Dumbledore’s memory.

18. But wait, Dumbledore said the remaining Horcrux was something of Ravenclaw or Gryffindor. How does Dumbledore fit with that?

Harry is not the heir of Gryffindor, but Dumbledore was.
I don’t see this as Dumbledore’s memory CLEARLY being altered at all, I see it as a still-not-so-confident-around-Dumbledore Tom Riddle reacting emotionally (with anger) to the situation and then clearly thinking better of it (rational thought took over) at that moment because he knew he'd lose in a duel with Dumbledore.

And really, IF Voldemort had the skill at that point (no way) to take on Dumbledore and alter his memory, why not do the safest thing and kill Dumbledore and make Gryffindor’s SWORD a Horcrux with the death (which also would have been much more attractive an option)? It would have been absolutely irresponsible and reckless for Voldemort to leave Dumbledore alive as a Horcrux… and who could he have killed at that moment to rip his soul to even make a Horcrux with other than dumbledore? Even before the twitch toward his wand, they were alone in the room.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos View Post
There you have it. Dumbledore was a Horcrux.
If Dumbledore was a horcrux and knew it, then why on earth would Dumbledore not admit that he knew he himself was a Horcrux and instead fill Harry’s head with the idea that he had to seek and find FOUR Horcruxes? If he knew he was a Horcrux, then he blatantly LIED to Harry when he said he could “only guess” at what the remaining four were :

Half Blood Prince, Chapter 23: Dumbledore has just told Harry that the diary and Marvolo’s ring were both horcruxes and that there are four left to be found and destroyed…

“So, the other Horcruxes?” said Harry. “Do you think you know what they are, sir?”
“I can only guess,” said Dumbledore. "For reasons I have already given, I believe that Lord Voldemort would prefer objects that, in themselves, have a certain grandeur. I have therefore trawled back through Voldemort’s past to see if I can find evidence that such artifacts have disappeared around him.”
“The locket!” said Harry loudly. “Hufflepuff’s cup!”
“Yes,” said Dumbledore, smiling, “I would be prepared to bet – perhaps not my other hand – but a couple of fingers, that they became horcruxes three and four. The remaining two, assuming again that he created a total of six, are more of a problem… “

at which point he talks about an object from Gryffindor or Ravenclaw being attractive to Voldemort, but since the only known relic of Gryffindor was safe, then perhaps the snake Nagini was the sixth.

So the real question is why would Dumledore lie to Harry about such an important thing? He is intentionally preparing harry for the Horcrux search and destroy mission. Would he lie to Harry to protect him from more pain? To prevent Harry from trying to prevent Dumbledore’s own death? Regardless of the reason, Dumbledore wouldn’t outright lie. He would hold his tongue and not talk about something if he didn’t want to, but he would not outright lie.

Sorcerer’s Stone, chapter 17 – harry says “Sir, there are some things I’d like to know the truth about…”
“The truth.” Dumbledore sighed. “It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution. However, I shall answer your questions unless I have a very good reason not to, in which case I beg you’ll forgive me. I shall not, of course, lie.”

Dumbledore was not a Horcrux.


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  #64  
Old April 21st, 2007, 10:43 pm
lost729  Male.gif lost729 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

i think he might be because snape might be good and killed him for harry or he was not because if snapes bad he would not have kill ed a horcrux


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  #65  
Old April 21st, 2007, 10:46 pm
papasmerf  Male.gif papasmerf is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

I doubt that Dumbledore was a horocruxe... For 2 reasons... [1]- How would Dumbledore allow Voldemort to "insert"[[hehe]] his life essence into him... And there needs to be a big death associated with it, and if Dumbledore was present he would have done a LOT to stop Voldemort from committing murder.


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  #66  
Old April 22nd, 2007, 3:11 pm
skeelos  Undisclosed.gif skeelos is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by ModernInkling
You make a good point that it would be a smart thing for Voldemort to try to do, but I highly doubt it actually happened.
Thanks, you're the first person to acknowledge that.

Quote:
There is a reason why Voldy is scared of Dumbledore - He's an extremely powerful wizard. I just can't believe that something like that could happen the way you said, right under Dumbledore's nose, without him noticing.
Well, all I can do is point out the first book again. Voldemort hid right under Dumbledore's nose for a whole year. Dumbledore himself invited Quirrel/Voldemort into the school to be the DADA teacher in the very year that Harry showed up at Hogwarts. Does Dumbledore just invite anybody to take the DADA job and not check them out in the least, especially in Harry's first year? It's not like Quirrel/Voldemort just slipped in the back door unnoticed. How much more evidence can anyone want that an unsuspecting Dumbledore can be caught by surprise by Voldemort?

Quote:
I don't see how replacing the pronouns makes a difference; there was never any lack of clarity there. (for me, anyway) Voldemort probably did not mean for Draco to succeed; he did indeed want to punish Lucius.
No insult intended, there are others (I hope) who it did make a difference to. One of the main objections people bring up is that Voldemort tried to kill Dumbledore. It is something I've tried to show simply isn't true. Well, he has tried to kill Dumbledore when he had no choice, but Voldemort has never put in motion a scheme to actually kill Dumbledore, much in contrast to Voldemort's efforts towards killing Harry.

Quote:
However, as Snape says, Voldemort means for Snape to do it in the end.
Ironic really that you should say this right after saying replacing the pronouns doesn't make a difference.

HBP page 34:
Quote:
Snape caught hold of her wrists and removed her clutching hands. Looking down into her tearstainted face, he said slowly, "He intends me to do it in the end, I think. But he is determined that Draco should try first. You see, in the unlikely event that Draco succeeds, I shall be able to remain at Hogwarts a little longer, fulfilling my useful role as spy."
At that point, Dumbledore and Snape both know Dumbledore is a Horcrux. They also know Draco has a mission to kill Dumbledore. When Snape uses the word "he" it is referring to Dumbledore not Voldemort. Dumbledore intends Snape to kill him in the end. Dumbledore is determined to let Draco try first (in order to protect Draco and Narcissa as stated at the Tower). If Draco succeeds, then Snape can continue as a spy for the Order. If Draco manages to kill Dumbledore there would be no need for Snape to remain a spy at Hogwarts for Voldemort.

Quote:
Besides, why would even Voldemort set Draco the task if it was something he did not want done? He had to have known that there was some possibility of Draco succeeding, so why on earth would he take that chance?
Heh, because it makes a good story. I'm only half joking because it is a good question. I'd have to say that Voldemort is taking a big risk, but he is very daring. I think he knows Draco will not have the ability to murder Dumbledore and he has confidence in his ability to judge Draco. I'd also like to point out that if Voldemort really wanted Dumbledore dead, his orders to the other DE's - that Draco and only Draco is allowed to kill Dumbledore - are bizarre to say the least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thru_n_thru
This is where we leave the realm of logic and enter the realm of pure speculation.
Very true. As I said before, the best we can do is gather the clues and do our best to put together a reasonable theory.
Quote:
There have been other speculative reasons given for why Dumbledore had to die and knew it that make more sense than Dumbledore being a Horcrux.
If there are, I haven't seen them. I believe no other theory can explain so many important actions and events in the story as well as JKR's quote, as Dumbledore being a Horcrux.

Quote:
I donít see this as Dumbledoreís memory CLEARLY being altered at all, I see it as a still-not-so-confident-around-Dumbledore Tom Riddle reacting emotionally (with anger) to the situation and then clearly thinking better of it (rational thought took over) at that moment because he knew he'd lose in a duel with Dumbledore.
Could be. I think it is clear though, and I believe Riddle is a man very much in control of himself. This is one of those cases where people read the same thing and come away with different interpretations of it. But I think JKR had to walk a very fine line. She had to give Harry enough information in HBP without giving away the whole thing. Assume for a moment that Dumbledore really was a Horcrux. How could JKR give Harry enough to figure it out without giving it away?

Quote:
And really, IF Voldemort had the skill at that point (no way) to take on Dumbledore and alter his memory, why not do the safest thing and kill Dumbledore and make Gryffindorís SWORD a Horcrux with the death (which also would have been much more attractive an option)?
The location of the sword has been a subject of much debate. As far as I know, there is nothing that states conclusively where the sword was when Riddle applied for the DADA job or that Riddle even knew where it was or if it still existed. It is equally fair to say that there is nothing that says unequivocably that Dumbledore was the heir of Gryffindor. But the simple answer to your question is that Voldemort did not know where the sword was.

Quote:
and who could he have killed at that moment to rip his soul to even make a Horcrux with other than dumbledore?
Quite a bit of time can elapse between the time of a murder and the making of a Horcrux. Making the Horcrux does not have to occur right after the murder:
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread....29#post4462429

Quote:
at which point he talks about an object from Gryffindor or Ravenclaw being attractive to Voldemort, but since the only known relic of Gryffindor was safe, then perhaps the snake Nagini was the sixth.<snip>
He would hold his tongue and not talk about something if he didnít want to, but he would not outright lie.
Exactly. Dumbledore would not lie to Harry. He says that the only known relic of Gryffindor was safe. The sword was safe (meaning safe from being a Horcrux). He does not say the heir of Gryffindor was safe (from being a Horcrux) because it would be a lie. Dumbledore as the heir of Gryffindor was not safe so instead of lying about it, Dumbledore says nothing about the heir of Gryffindor. JKR has said that Dumbledore's family would be a good area of inquiry. I think it's because Dumbledore was the heir of Gryffindor. As such, it makes him an "object" of the founders and a target for a Horcrux.

Nagini can't be a replacement for both the Gryffindor and Ravenclaw objects. Dumbledore says the only known relic of Gryffindor is safe. So off everyone goes thinking Nagini is the replacement for the Gryffindor object and the unknown Horcrux is a Ravenclaw object, just like Snape was evil and after the Stone in the first book, and Sirius murdered Harry's parents and was trying to kill Harry in the second book, etc. That the unknown Horcrux is a Ravenclaw item is quite simply too obvious to be true.


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  #67  
Old April 22nd, 2007, 3:42 pm
EBJ23  Female.gif EBJ23 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

I find it hard to believe that Dumbledore was a horacrux. It would be too risky on Voldemort's part.


  #68  
Old April 22nd, 2007, 4:08 pm
Hinoema  Female.gif Hinoema is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Also- would Fawkes associate with a Horcrux?


  #69  
Old April 22nd, 2007, 4:09 pm
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinoema View Post
would Fawkes associate with a Horcrux?
Would he leave Albus if Voldemort made Albus a Horcrux? Abandon his friend because of that?


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  #70  
Old April 22nd, 2007, 4:11 pm
papasmerf  Male.gif papasmerf is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

ummm.. wah? I dont really see what your saying, but if your are saying that Fawkes is a horocrux i would have to disagree.. Just for the fact that WHY would Voldemort do that.. and there is always the theory that every time the phoenix "dies" that the soul would escape him defeating the purpose of making him a horocrux. Another thing is Voldemort already intrusted part of his soul to an animal.. Nagini, and I think that two animals would be pushing it..
**edit**
never mind got what your saying, and no i dont think he would leave Dumbledore because of the close bound that was shown between them especially in the 2nd book.


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  #71  
Old April 22nd, 2007, 6:49 pm
thru_n_thru  Female.gif thru_n_thru is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos View Post
If there are, I haven't seen them. I believe no other theory can explain so many important actions and events in the story as well as JKR's quote, as Dumbledore being a Horcrux.
They are around all over these forums, and one or two brought up in this very thread. One having to do with the curse on Dumbledore when he broke Marvolo's ring, another with the potion in the cave, and another, a most interesting theory, having to do with the impersonation of Snape. I haven't been here very long and have read them. If you are interested, I'm sure you can find them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos View Post
Could be. I think it is clear though, and I believe Riddle is a man very much in control of himself.
Interpretation, yes... I think Riddle was a man very much intimidated by Dumbledore, hence the cronies he brought with him for support, the DE's that were waiting for him in Hogsmeade. A confident and fearless Voldemort would have went to see Dumbledore alone, having no need of backup support waiting in the wings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos View Post
The location of the sword has been a subject of much debate. As far as I know, there is nothing that states conclusively where the sword was when Riddle applied for the DADA job or that Riddle even knew where it was or if it still existed. It is equally fair to say that there is nothing that says unequivocably that Dumbledore was the heir of Gryffindor. But the simple answer to your question is that Voldemort did not know where the sword was.
He may not have known exactly where the sword was, but we know he wanted the job so he could be near enough to find it, or some other relic from one of the other founders. There is nothing anywhere to suggest Dumbledore was the heir of Gryffindor, and certainly nothing that would suggest Voldemort, of all people, would be privy to this information.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos View Post
Quite a bit of time can elapse between the time of a murder and the making of a Horcrux. Making the Horcrux does not have to occur right after the murder:
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread....29#post4462429
I disagree with that, and posted in that thread my thoughts on it. I'm of the mind that all or part of the horcrux spell has to be performed either right before a murder or right after it. That is a debate for the other thread, tho.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos View Post
Exactly. Dumbledore would not lie to Harry. He says that the only known relic of Gryffindor was safe.
(Underlining in the above quote added by me)
It doesn't matter what Dumbledore says about Gryffindor's sword, what matters is that he said "he can only guess" and that there are FOUR still to find. If, as you assert, Dumbledore knew he was a horcrux, and as you say above "Dumbledore would not lie to harry", then Dumbledore would tell Harry that of the reamaiing four horcruxes, there were only THREE left to identify and find. He could only quess at THREE, and he knew what the fourth was. Dumbledore wouldn't have to tell Harry that he HIMSELF was the Horcrux, he would just tell him he knew of one of the four and would take care of it in due time. Telling Harry there were FOUR unknowns instead of THREE would have been a blatant LIE , and intenionally make Harry's quest longer and harder than it needed to be, and Dumbledore wouldn't lie.


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Last edited by thru_n_thru; April 22nd, 2007 at 7:02 pm. Reason: clarification
  #72  
Old April 23rd, 2007, 11:41 pm
skeelos  Undisclosed.gif skeelos is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by thru_n_thru View Post
One having to do with the curse on Dumbledore when he broke Marvolo's ring, another with the potion in the cave, and another, a most interesting theory, having to do with the impersonation of Snape.
Yes, Iíve read a bit of those. However, what you said earlier is that they make more sense than Dumbledore being a Horcrux, and I have yet to see one that makes more sense than Dumbledore being a Horcrux, including the ones you mention.

Quote:
A confident and fearless Voldemort would have went to see Dumbledore alone, having no need of backup support waiting in the wings.
DEís in Hogsmeade are hardly in a position to support Voldemort while heís in the Headmasterís office.

Quote:
He may not have known exactly where the sword was, but we know he wanted the job so he could be near enough to find it, or some other relic from one of the other founders.
Actually, I have some confusion about that. I came away with it thinking that on one hand Riddle wanted to search for founderís relics, but on the other hand Riddle never expected to get the job. Might be worth looking at again. If he did in fact not expect to get the job, it lends more credence to the idea that he made Dumbledore a Horcrux at that time.

On the subject of how much time can elapse between a murder and the making of a Horcrux, weíll just have to disagree on that.

Quote:
There is nothing anywhere to suggest Dumbledore was the heir of Gryffindor, and certainly nothing that would suggest Voldemort, of all people, would be privy to this information.
Correct. Nothing explicit anyway, but there are a number of clues that Dumbledore was the heir of Gryffindor. As for Voldemort knowing it, no, nothing that Iím aware of, but something like that would be very hard to fit in without giving the whole thing away I think. It might even be in one of the books and I missed it.

Quote:
It doesn't matter what Dumbledore says about Gryffindor's sword,
I think it matters a great deal what Dumbledore says about the sword.

Quote:
what matters is that he said "he can only guess" and that there are FOUR still to find. If, as you assert, Dumbledore knew he was a horcrux, and as you say above "Dumbledore would not lie to harry",
I donít see that as a lie at all. As I said, Dumbledore (JKR) has to walk a very fine line. Harry has to learn just enough to be able to figure out that Dumbledore was a Horcrux without making it obvious and giving it away. What Harry said was ďDo you think you know what they are, sir?Ē To which Dumbledore says, ďI can only guess.Ē I think to call that a lie is parsing it much too fine. Though if we want to get that fine, then whether or not Dumbledore was a Horcrux, that would be a true statement. Harry asked ďtheyĒ, plural, and Dumbledore responded accordingly without giving away the fact that he himself was a Horcrux. Dumbledore does not know for certain which objects are actually Horcruxes until those objects are found and examined. He is guessing. Of course he makes very good guesses, but theyíre guesses nonetheless.

Quote:
Dumbledore wouldn't have to tell Harry that he HIMSELF was the Horcrux, he would just tell him he knew of one of the four and would take care of it in due time.
No, that would not have worked at all. Unless Dumbledore told him outright that he was a Horcrux, nothing for Harry would be gained and much would be lost because Harry would not know which Horcrux it was and he would not have known whether or not Dumbledore had destroyed it. It would also create the possibility that Harry would not track down all of the Horcruxes.

In that situation, Harry would almost have to come to the conclusion that it was either the locket or the cup that Dumbledore was referring to. Harry would have to conclude that it wasnít the Ravenclaw/Gryffindor item because then it wouldnít have been unknown. It couldnít have been Nagini, because she was not hidden in the same way as the other items.

As it stands now, Harry thinks he has to identify four and destroy four, when in reality he has to identify four and destroy three, which explains JKRís quote very well, something the other ďDumbledore had to dieĒ theories do not do. Thatís far better for Harry than Harry deducing incorrectly that Dumbledore had destroyed one of the other ones.

Quote:
Telling Harry there were FOUR unknowns instead of THREE would have been a blatant LIE , and intenionally make Harry's quest longer and harder than it needed to be, and Dumbledore wouldn't lie.
I donít agree. When Dumbledore informed Harry of the Horcruxes there were in fact four remaining, because Dumbledore was still alive. And he doesnít say four are unknown what he says is that the last two are more of a problem and then he doesnít finish his sentence. He makes sure Harry knows that one Horcrux is something of Ravenclaw or Gryffindor. He also makes sure that Harry knows that Voldemort is not afraid to put a Horcrux in a living thing. Harry has all the information he needs, he just has to put it together.


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  #73  
Old April 24th, 2007, 3:25 am
Dr Hesper  Male.gif Dr Hesper is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelos View Post
When Voldemort applied for the DADA job, he made Dumbledore a Horcrux, and then used a memory charm to alter Dumbledore’s memory.
So, let me see if I get this. Dumbledore was a horcrux and that is why he knew he had to die? Wow...that would be the only concievable way I can see that Dumbledore's death might be justified. But I have some questions:

If he did this when he applied for the dada job, then it was actually Tom Riddle who did this (he hadnt adopted the name Voldemort yet) right? Small but important point. And If Riddle used a memory charm on Dumbledore and made him forget he was a horcrux...then how did Dumbledore ever learn that he was one? How could he know to tell Snape he had to die?

What evidence is there to suggest that Riddle was even capable of making Dumbledore a horcrux? I know Riddle could cast the spell, but how did he overcome Dumbledore long enough to make him into a horcrux? Was Riddle powerful enough at the time to do this? Who did Riddle/Voldemort kill as part of the spell?

Furthermore we know dyumbledore said it is dangerous (though possible) to make a living thing into a horcrux. Would it be wise for Riddle to place something so valuable to himself inside his enemy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thru_n_thru View Post
If, as you assert, Dumbledore knew he was a horcrux, and as you say above "Dumbledore would not lie to harry", then Dumbledore would tell Harry that of the reamaiing four horcruxes, there were only THREE left to identify and find. He could only quess at THREE, and he knew what the fourth was. Dumbledore wouldn't have to tell Harry that he HIMSELF was the Horcrux, he would just tell him he knew of one of the four and would take care of it in due time. Telling Harry there were FOUR unknowns instead of THREE would have been a blatant LIE , and intenionally make Harry's quest longer and harder than it needed to be, and Dumbledore wouldn't lie.
Also if Dumbledore was a horcrux, he most likely would have indicated this to Harry and that he had to die, thus preventing Harry from thinking Snape was a murderer. This would keep Harry from going off on yet another wild goose chase.



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Last edited by Dr Hesper; April 24th, 2007 at 3:27 am.
  #74  
Old April 24th, 2007, 3:56 am
thru_n_thru  Female.gif thru_n_thru is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Skeelos, I think we are at an impasse . I thoroughly enjoyed reading your theory, as I have enjoyed reading the many well thought out theories here, but I just am not convinced that your theory is plausible. However, if Dumbleodre turns out to have been a Horcrux, I will remember you... but I'll remember you when he doesn't as well .


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Last edited by thru_n_thru; April 24th, 2007 at 4:02 am.
  #75  
Old April 24th, 2007, 2:57 pm
skeelos  Undisclosed.gif skeelos is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Hesper View Post
If he did this when he applied for the dada job, then it was actually Tom Riddle who did this (he hadnt adopted the name Voldemort yet) right? Small but important point.
Very important point. Yes, it was Riddle, though he had just started using the name Voldemort. Dumbledore makes a point to call him Tom, and Harry notes it was a sign that Dumbledore would not allow Riddle to dictate terms of the meeting. Itís an important point because Riddle had not yet fully declared himself. He was still building his power, and therefore, Dumbledore did not expect or suspect Riddle of trying to do anything in the Headmasterís office. This allowed Riddle to catch Dumbledore unawares.

Quote:
And If Riddle used a memory charm on Dumbledore and made him forget he was a horcrux...then how did Dumbledore ever learn that he was one?
Dumbledore learned he was a Horcrux from the ďfalloutĒ of destroying the ring Horcrux. The spell he used to destroy the Horcrux in the ring sort of spilled over and damaged his hand. Dumbledore used a spell that would destroy the Horcrux without destroying the ring. The ring suffered damage and so did Dumbledoreís hand. Dumbledore, unaware that he was a Horcrux, had no reason to fear a spell he used to destroy a Horcrux would injure himself. When it did injure him, the conclusion was obvious. All speculation of course, but I believe it to be true.

Quote:
How could he know to tell Snape he had to die?
Dumbledore didnít have much choice. He would have died if not for Snapeís help. In order for Snape to help him properly, Snape had to understand what was going on. Thatís when Snape learned Dumbledore was a Horcrux. Once Snape learned that, I doubt Dumbledore would have to explain a whole lot to Snape about having to die.

Quote:
What evidence is there to suggest that Riddle was even capable of making Dumbledore a horcrux? I know Riddle could cast the spell, but how did he overcome Dumbledore long enough to make him into a horcrux? Was Riddle powerful enough at the time to do this?
This is why your first question is so important. Dumbledore was simply caught unawares by Riddle. Dumbledoreís memory shows a distinct sign that it was altered. Harry saw it, but doesnít yet recognize how important it is.

Quote:
Who did Riddle/Voldemort kill as part of the spell?
I donít know, but I think it is clear that quite a bit of time can elapse between a murder and the making of a Horcrux from that murder.

Quote:
Furthermore we know dyumbledore said it is dangerous (though possible) to make a living thing into a horcrux. Would it be wise for Riddle to place something so valuable to himself inside his enemy?
If Riddle could do it, it would be a very smart move. The only wizard Riddle feared was Dumbledore. So if Riddle could make Dumbledore a Horcrux, then Dumbledore could never fully kill Riddle because his Horcrux in Dumbledore would keep him alive. No matter how many times Dumbledore ďkilledĒ Riddle, Riddle would always be able to come back because of the Horcrux in Dumbledore. When Dumbledore eventually died, then Riddle would no longer have anyone to fear and he still had other Horcruxes to keep him alive.

Quote:
Also if Dumbledore was a horcrux, he most likely would have indicated this to Harry and that he had to die, thus preventing Harry from thinking Snape was a murderer. This would keep Harry from going off on yet another wild goose chase.
No, Dumbledore could not tell Harry. Harry certainly would have objected and would have interfered. Harry is not one to stand idly by while Dumbledore allows himself to be killed. Also, Dumbledore would not have placed that burden on Harry. Itís very much like how Dumbledore waited for years to tell Harry of the prophecy. Dumbledore immobilized Harry at the tower to keep Harry from interfering and to keep Harry from harming Snape and Draco.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thru_n_thru
Skeelos, I think we are at an impasse . I thoroughly enjoyed reading your theory, as I have enjoyed reading the many well thought out theories here, but I just am not convinced that your theory is plausible. However, if Dumbleodre turns out to have been a Horcrux, I will remember you... but I'll remember you when he doesn't as well.
Thanks, Iíve enjoyed it as well. Iím sure Iíll have to be around when the book comes out to either crow or eat crow. lol.


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  #76  
Old April 25th, 2007, 12:36 am
Dr Hesper  Male.gif Dr Hesper is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Man, this is a very interesting theory and one that I'm going to have to mull over for awhile. If it were somehow possible for Voldemort to make Dumbledore into a Horcrux, then yes...it would be tough for Harry to complete his task. I'm not quite sure yet how Riddle could have somehow overcome dumbledore and turned him into a horcrux. If he could have, though, it's conceivable that he would have tried to alter dumbledore's memories. But that meeting took place in Dumbledore's stronghold if I remember correctly (Hogwarts). And yes, Dumbledore may have underestimated Tom, but let us not forget that Tom himself admitted that Dumbledore kept a very close eye on him after those kids were killed by the basilisk. So I dont how if Dumbledore really underestimated him or not.

Anyway, this is off topic and I apologize, but something you said earlier made me think of yet another issue. You mentioned
Quote:
Dumbledore learned he was a Horcrux from the “fallout” of destroying the ring Horcrux. The spell he used to destroy the Horcrux in the ring sort of spilled over and damaged his hand. Dumbledore used a spell that would destroy the Horcrux without destroying the ring. The ring suffered damage and so did Dumbledore’s hand. Dumbledore, unaware that he was a Horcrux, had no reason to fear a spell he used to destroy a Horcrux would injure himself. When it did injure him, the conclusion was obvious.
This made me think of something else. While I'm not sure if Dumbledore actually learned he himself was a horcrux during this process, the effects you described reminded me of the events that took place in Godric's Hollow! You might be honing in on something there. It seems that the effects are almost identical to what happened to Voldemort when he tried to kill Harry! Say Dumbledore used a spell to try to destroy the horcrux in the ring. And something in that ring (some protection or whatever) caused the spell to rebound (or spill over) and damage Dumbledore's hand. Is this not what was decribed as happening to Voldemort? Didn't he cast a spell at Harry only to have it rebound (or otherwise spill over) and damage Voldemort? And what if Voldemort was unable to withstand the effects because his soul was spilt up between himself and 6 other horcruxes? Perhaps he couldnt withstand the damage while Dumbledore could! (Dumbledore having his entire soul inside him when he cast the spell on that ring).

I don't know if I'm making myself clear here but in short I'm just trying to pose a theory that Voldemort and Dumbledore did similar things to different items but Dumbledore hand was all that was damaged, while Voldemort was blasted into smoke.


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Last edited by Dr Hesper; April 25th, 2007 at 12:42 am.
  #77  
Old April 25th, 2007, 7:58 am
Hinoema  Female.gif Hinoema is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicole View Post
Would he leave Albus if Voldemort made Albus a Horcrux? Abandon his friend because of that?

Wouldn't Fawkes know? Be alarmed? Try to heal him? A Horcrux, especially if it was a soul piece similar to Diarymort's, would be evil by nature.

Also, how could Dumbledore detect the ring to have been a Horcrux but not know he, himself was one?



Last edited by Hinoema; April 25th, 2007 at 8:00 am.
  #78  
Old May 1st, 2007, 12:22 am
Pinemoon3  Female.gif Pinemoon3 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinoema View Post
Also, how could Dumbledore detect the ring to have been a Horcrux but not know he, himself was one?


I don't think DD detected that the ring was a Horcrux, he realised it was one when he encountered the magic prtecting it.

Skeelos, this is a great theory. Very well thought out. How did you come up with this? This seems so far feched that it might just be possible. LOL! Leave it to JK to put something like this in, something that she thought no one would think of. Great job!


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  #79  
Old May 1st, 2007, 1:38 am
The_Scifanac  Male.gif The_Scifanac is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

The biggest problem that I have with this theory of your's skeelos, besides that fact that it just doesn't make sense, is that fact that it is highly assumtuous and coincidential. All your evidence is purely coincidential, and although it adds up, there is no solid verifyable undeniable proof!

And I've thought of another counter point! (I'm determined to disporve this theory since it's so outrageous ) You say that Voldemort made Dumbledore into a horcrux when he apllied for the DADA job. that as he was leaving the momentary twitch of Voldemort's had to his wand indicated that he had made dumbledore into a horcrux and wiped his memory of the incident and all that was left was the "insignificant" hand motion. there are a few big problems with this assumption.

Dumbledore is (was) the most powerfull good wizard in the world! When the ministry tried to arrest Dumbledore, in Order of the Pheonix, in the very same office where the conscerned scene between Dumbledore and Voldemort took place, Dumbledore incapacitated four fully qualified adult wizards without a scratch! In the Ministry of Magic, Dumbledore was able to dodge or block every single attack Voldemort threw at him. And that was a full fledged battle between the two. I refuse to believe that Dumbledore would let his gaurd down at any time in front of Voldemort, even within his own office. I say it's far more likely that Dumbledore would have been able to repel or evade a simple memory charm from Voldemort even with verry little warning, much less a proper horcrux creation spell, which, I imagine, takes significant building up to and time to cast. That means that Voldemort would have had to subdue Dumbledore, make a horcrux out of him and cast a memeory charm on him all in the home field advantage of his very own office!
Highly Unlikely!!

Also, Dumbledore might allow his idealist nature to get in the way of detecting death eaters in his school but he still has a highly intuitive and exstensive knowledge of magic! He was the one who figured out the whole busines with the time turner, spurred Harry and Hermione into using it and thus enabling them to save Sirius and Buckbeak. I think Dumbledore might know if he had had his memory modified and a piece of Voldemort's soul put inside him, long before you're saying he did!

What do you say to that skeelos?

On a more agreeable note. I will admit that I think the only plausible scenario in which Dumbledore would have been a horcrux, might have been the following. In the inferi cave, at the end of Half Blood Prince, Dumbledore spent a lot of time performing who knows what magic on the potion. He might have transfered the the fraction of Voldemort's soul hidden in the locket into the actual emerald potion, vanished the, the real horcrux, transported the fake into the basin in it's place containing the ambiguous message, drank the potion now containing a piece of voldemort's soul in it and then allowed himself to be killed, thus getting rid of a a horcrux, solidifying Snape's cover among the death eaters, and luring Voldemort into the false pretense that he had succeded in killing Dumbledore without sustaining any considerable sacrifices. This would explain a lot. It would explain why Dumbledore was in so much pain even after the purifying drink of water Harry gave him. It would explain why Dumbledore didn't notice that it was a locket different from the one he and Harry had seen in the pensieve. It would be an ideal ploy to trick Voldemort into thinking that he had finished Dumbledore. It would make snese with Dumbledore letting himself be killed as a victim of a plan spurred into action by Draco Malfoy; a plan none the less, which he says to Drako himself he knew about. It would also explain, if he indeed knew about Draco's plan, why he would let death eaters gain entry into hogwarts, risking the lives of his colleagues and students. The note Dumbledore placed in the fake locket was, I think, intended as a message from Regulus Black, he and Dumbledore might have worked together for a brief period to destroy the horcruxes. Dumbledore, wanting Voldemort to think Regulus was on to him, left the note in the fake horcrux so that if Voldemort read it, he would think that Regulus had been on to him before he killed him. from the note it sounded to me that whoever wrote it thought that Voldemort had only made one horcrux and that by destroying it, he would be making him mortal again. This would lead Voldemort into a false sense of security his horcruxes, making him think that he had eliminated any threat of them being destroyed by killing Regulus. But in reality, Dumbledore had discovered all his horcruxes and when Harry goes to face voldemort for the final time, Voldemort will not be affriad, thinking that one of his horcrxes was still safe. but when Harry defeats him, Voldemort will actually die, being that the last horcrux he thought was safe was actually destroyed by Dumledore a year ago.

Thats a theory of mine. Spurred into thought by your's skeelos.


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  #80  
Old May 1st, 2007, 1:52 am
Dr Hesper  Male.gif Dr Hesper is offline
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Re: Dumbledore Was a Horcrux

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Scifanac View Post
The biggest problem that I have with this theory of your's skeelos, besides that fact that it just doesn't make sense, is that fact that it is highly assumtuous and coincidential. All your evidence is purely coincidential, and although it adds up, there is no solid verifyable undeniable proof!

And I've thought of another counter point! (I'm determined to disporve this theory since it's so outrageous ) You say that Voldemort made Dumbledore into a horcrux when he apllied for the DADA job. that as he was leaving the momentary twitch of Voldemort's had to his wand indicated that he had made dumbledore into a horcrux and wiped his memory of the incident and all that was left was the "insignificant" hand motion. there are a few big problems with this assumption.

Dumbledore is (was) the most powerfull good wizard in the world! When the ministry tried to arrest Dumbledore, in Order of the Pheonix, in the very same office where the conscerned scene between Dumbledore and Voldemort took place, Dumbledore incapacitated four fully qualified adult wizards without a scratch! In the Ministry of Magic, Dumbledore was able to dodge or block every single attack Voldemort threw at him. And that was a full fledged battle between the two. I refuse to believe that Dumbledore would let his gaurd down at any time in front of Voldemort, even within his own office. I say it's far more likely that Dumbledore would have been able to repel or evade a simple memory charm from Voldemort even with verry little warning, much less a proper horcrux creation spell, which, I imagine, takes significant building up to and time to cast. That means that Voldemort would have had to subdue Dumbledore, make a horcrux out of him and cast a memeory charm on him all in the home field advantage of his very own office!
Highly Unlikely!!

Also, Dumbledore might allow his idealist nature to get in the way of detecting death eaters in his school but he still has a highly intuitive and exstensive knowledge of magic! He was the one who figured out the whole busines with the time turner, spurred Harry and Hermione into using it and thus enabling them to save Sirius and Buckbeak. I think Dumbledore might know if he had had his memory modified and a piece of Voldemort's soul put inside him, long before you're saying he did!

What do you say to that skeelos?

On a more agreeable note. I will admit that I think the only plausible scenario in which Dumbledore would have been a horcrux, might have been the following. In the inferi cave, at the end of Half Blood Prince, Dumbledore spent a lot of time performing who knows what magic on the potion. He might have transfered the the fraction of Voldemort's soul hidden in the locket into the actual emerald potion, vanished the, the real horcrux, transported the fake into the basin in it's place containing the ambiguous message, drank the potion now containing a piece of voldemort's soul in it and then allowed himself to be killed, thus getting rid of a a horcrux, solidifying Snape's cover among the death eaters, and luring Voldemort into the false pretense that he had succeded in killing Dumbledore without sustaining any considerable sacrifices. This would explain a lot. It would explain why Dumbledore was in so much pain even after the purifying drink of water Harry gave him. It would explain why Dumbledore didn't notice that it was a locket different from the one he and Harry had seen in the pensieve. It would be an ideal ploy to trick Voldemort into thinking that he had finished Dumbledore. It would make snese with Dumbledore letting himself be killed as a victim of a plan spurred into action by Draco Malfoy; a plan none the less, which he says to Drako himself he knew about. It would also explain, if he indeed knew about Draco's plan, why he would let death eaters gain entry into hogwarts, risking the lives of his colleagues and students. The note Dumbledore placed in the fake locket was, I think, intended as a message from Regulus Black, he and Dumbledore might have worked together for a brief period to destroy the horcruxes. Dumbledore, wanting Voldemort to think Regulus was on to him, left the note in the fake horcrux so that if Voldemort read it, he would think that Regulus had been on to him before he killed him. from the note it sounded to me that whoever wrote it thought that Voldemort had only made one horcrux and that by destroying it, he would be making him mortal again. This would lead Voldemort into a false sense of security his horcruxes, making him think that he had eliminated any threat of them being destroyed by killing Regulus. But in reality, Dumbledore had discovered all his horcruxes and when Harry goes to face voldemort for the final time, Voldemort will not be affriad, thinking that one of his horcrxes was still safe. but when Harry defeats him, Voldemort will actually die, being that the last horcrux he thought was safe was actually destroyed by Dumledore a year ago.

Thats a theory of mine. Spurred into thought by your's skeelos.
Hmm...well, while i have trouble seeing how Dumbledore would underestimate Riddle/Voldy, people who have their memories modified, dont generall know it.

skeelos' theory is interesting and there just might be something to it. It might be possible for Dumbledore to be turned into some sort of horcrux, but perhaps it happened in a different way? Perhaps that ring caused it (aka...a cursed item). Cursed items can have weird things that go into effect once someone touches it. (Like that opal necklace). Who knows what this ring that Dumbledore wore did to him? We suspect it withered his hand, but is that all?

If... this ring also managed to place a bit of Voldy's soul into Dumbledore, then Skeelos' theory makes good sense and Dumbledore would likely know he had to die.



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