Dumbledore's Death - General Speculation

[Sile]

DD knew he was dying after he went after the ring. Snape put 'a stopper in death' but didn't completly stop everything. This was why DD was imparting all his knowledge to Harry.

[DarkSphynx]

Originally Posted by Sile

Snape put 'a stopper in death'

Wow, I hadn't even thought of when Snape said this! Anyone agree that this could be significant? (It could be one of the possible explanations as to why Dumbledore did not die straightaway.)

[Yoana]

Originally Posted by Sile

DD knew he was dying after he went after the ring. Snape put 'a stopper in death' but didn't completly stop everything. This was why DD was imparting all his knowledge to Harry.

That's what I believe in as well. I think the plan was outlined after Dumbledore destroyed the ring horcrux. He says that he's alive because of Snape's timely interferance. It's significant that he needed Snape specifically to cure him - and honestly, I don't think that it's possible for Snape to react quickly and accurately and find the correct cure for something as rare as a horcrux curse without knowing what he was dealing with. Hence my belief that Snape knew about the horcruxes (but that's not the thread for that). So yeah, I think Dumbledore developed his plan as early as before Spinner's End and I get the impression, from Snape's behaviour, that he was leading Narcissa into the Vow and not vice versa. Dumbledore saw in his death a possibility to concrete Voldemort's trust in Snape and thus enable Snape to work from within to help bring him down.

[Quent]

Hello everyone...Im back!


I think Dumbledore may have perceived he was going to die in one way or another,I believe the reason Dumbledore was imparting all of his knowledge to Harry was because either he knew something was going to happen to him as the result of the Unbreakable Vow or the most likely of the two,he wanted Harry to know he would not be there forever and was showing him things that he would have to do on his own.His lessons in Book 6 were kind of a head start for Harry,if you get what I'm saying.

You have a good theory but I don't think the ring was killing him.Dumbledore was undoubtedly strong and I do not believe he would merely slow down the course of the curse by nearly a year,it is much more believable that he stopped the curse on the whole.Also his slight arrogance may have been due to the fact that Voldemort was getting increasingly stronger and he wanted Harry to be best prepared and understand,though as we know Harry is a little slow on the uptake at times.This may have slightly frustrated him,as we had read in Book 6.

[negaprion]

I think Dumbledore was not dying from the ring, but he realized that he might die before he finished finding the horcruxes. That's why he went to talk to the Dursleys.

I think Dumbledore was dying from the potion - and in fact died from the potion not the AK. I have several reasons for this theory. First, when Harry was frozen, he was propped up against the wall like a plank - meaning that his body was completely stiff, his head was against the wall and his feet were away from the wall. This is a very unnatural position. Second, Dumbledore was leaning on the ramparts and slowly sliding down during his talk with Draco. These two positions are critical for my theory.

Now along comes Snape. He sees that Dumbledore is almost dead. He also learns from Dumbledore that Harry is hidden in the corner and that Dumbledore doesn't have the strength to keep him hidden for much longer (through leglimancy of course). It is essential that Snape get the DEs off the tower ASAP. Snape then fakes the AK which doesn't act like other AKs we've seen before. There is no swooshing sound and Dumbledore is lifted up and over the rampart. He slowly falls.....Snape is really lowering him to the ground. At this point, Harry is still frozen and he remains frozen for several seconds - until most of the DEs are gone. If DD had died immediately from the AK - Harry would have screamed and gone after the five DEs on the roof. That didn't happen because DD didn't die for a short while after he hit the ground.

[SusanBones]

Dumbledore said that he had been hunting for horcruxes for years. He needed to draw Harry into the hunt for several reasons.

1. He was unable to get the full memory from Slughorn. He needed Harry to help retrieve the information.

2. Harry was Voldemort's target. He knew that Voldemort would stop at nothing to kill him. Harry had to be given all the information he could. Dumbledore learned from the mistake he made in OotP, when he withheld information from Harry with the disasterous result of Sirius' death.

3. Dumbledore was feeling his age. Snape told Bellatrix that the Ministry incident shock Dumbledore up. It was time to bring Harry into the hunt.

4. The damage from the protections on the ring horcrux showed Dumbledore that he needed help with the hunt. It also showed him that he needed to teach Harry how to hunt for horcruxes.

5. The potion in the cave was no health drink. Dumbledore told Harry that Voldemort would have wanted the drinker to stay alive long enough to interview him. It is unclear whether it was fatal or not. But there is a possibility that Snape would have known an antidote to it.

6. Dumbledore was very sick on the Tower. Snape's Avada Kedavra curse was so strong that it blew him off his feet and over the edge. It is the first time we have seen that particular spell do more than just drop the people to the ground. But we have seen other spells throw people around in some cases, and not in others. I think Snape had a lot of power behind the spell. I also think it was a plot device to get the body away from the Tower so that Harry would leave the Tower and so people would find the body down below.

[Shewoman]

I do believe that Dumbledore was dying ever since he tangled with the Ring Horcrux. Snape knew this when he took the Vow (since he was the one Dumbledore went to when his hand was injured).

There are a number of allusions in HBP to Snape's first Potions lecture in Book 1. He mentions "putting a stopper in death" there. John Granger suggests that that's exactly what Snape did when Dumbledore's hand was injured, and that's why his hand is dead but his whole body isn't infected. Granger also says that a "stopper" isn't the same thing as a permanent stop: it buys time but doesn't keep the death from happening--only postpones it. This gave Dumbledore and Snape time to try to gain some benefit from Dumbledore's inevitable death.

He also suggests that most of what we see on the Tower is an act, that Dumbledore and Snape are using the link between Harry and Voldemort as a "mini-cam" in order to show Voldemort what they want him to see--Snape as a loyal DE, for instance. We're told that Voldemort is no longer trying to send Harry visions, but that doesn't mean he isn't looking through Harry's eyes. Granger says that, through Polyjuice, the "Dumbledore" who goes to the Dursleys at the beginning of HBP is Snape, that the one we see in the cave and on the Tower is Slughorn, and that Hagrid is also playing Dumbledore (but he doesn't say when). Dumbledore is dead--but he may not have died when we think he did.

This would explain why Dumbledore seems to speak differently from the way we're used to. I can see Snape attacking the Dursleys with glasses of mead easier than I can see Dumbledore doing it. On the other hand, often he "sounds" just like himself, and his offer of protection to Draco on the Tower sounds like one of those times to me.

I am, however, quite convinced that there was more going on with Dumbledore's death than we know and that it isn't possible at this point to assess what happened. It's not like JKR's never pulled the rug out from under us before.

[SusanBones]

I am quite convinced that Dumbledore's death was just as it looked on page. I don't believe he had suffered any worse of an injury than a dead hand from the ring protection. He even claimed that a dead hand was worth the price of a horcrux. He appears to function normally throughout the story. He is even able to swim into the cave, something that amazed Harry. He arrived on the Tower very sick from the potion, though.

What we read in the book is that a very worried Dumbledore orders Harry to stay under the cloak and to go straight to get Snape. Dumbledore hears someone coming up the stairs, petrifies Harry and becomes disarmed.

He has a nice chat with Draco about ways and means, convinced that Draco will not kill him. Then he offers to put Draco and his father into hiding, so that they are safe from Voldemort.

Death Eaters storm unto the Tower. Conversation continues. At this point, Dumbledore has probably figured out that he will soon be killed if no one comes up to help him. I am sure that he is very concerned with Harry's safety. Dumbledore can hear that there is quite a battle raging down below.

Snape arrives on the scene alone. He did not bring assistance. Snape and a healthy Dumbledore could most likely handle the situation, but a sick and unarmed man is not much help when there are so many bad guys.

Here is the dividing line. If Snape hadn't taken a vow to kill Dumbledore if Draco failed, then Snape would have to make a decision about what to do next.

But what Snape should do next becomes a moot point, a non-discussion item in my opinion. Snape took a vow, and he has only two choices. He can die from the effects of not carrying out the vow, or he can fulfill the vow. He chose to kill Dumbledore. It is very simple. I see the Tower scene as very clearcut, without any mystery at all. Of course, that is my opinion.

[Lord Godric]

I think the fact that Dumbledore went to the Dursley's before the school year ended meant that he knew he probably wasn't going to be around for the rest of the year. I think we can assume Dumbledore comes to get Harry in HBP after Snape makes the unbreakable vow, since that chapter does come before. Dumbledore was weak, and when the ring horcrux nearly killed Dumbledore - he saw Snape. When the necklace horcrux nearly killed Dumbledore - he asked to see Snape. I believe Snape delayed (or put a stopper in) Dumbledore's death. Its the only thing that can answer all the questions.

[IgoRetla]

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

I believe Snape delayed (or put a stopper in) Dumbledore's death. Its the only thing that can answer all the questions.

I afraid that I can't agree with that "stopper death" interpretation. To me, Snape was simply referring to the fact that he could teach students to brew potent poisons--after all, once they are in a flask or vial, you STOPPER them.

He didn't say stop death...

And, when I had high school chemistry at least, we certainly used rubber stoppers...

[Quickquill]

Originally Posted by RiverIsis

Do you think Dumbledore "knew" (inferred) he would have to die for the prophecy to be fulfilled - He's very clever ol DD and I am beginning to wonder whether DD realised when Trelawney made her prophecy that he would be sacrificed as well when the time came. Throughout OotP he seems to be burdened with how much he has never told Harry and so I think he set about to put that right the following year especially with the rise of Voldmort - in short DD knew he was a marked man.

The minute the prophecy was mentioned it was obvious that Dumbledore couldn't possibly live to the end of the series. After all, he's this great dark wizard catcher. Why couldn't he defeat Voldemort? Particularly since he's the only one Voldemort was ever afraid of. The only answer was that he would not live long enough to complete the work. That was why he was given the prophecy. So that he could groom his successor.

A lot of people have made some very good points about collusion between Dumbledore and Snape in the matter of Dumbledore's death. Whether the scene was staged for Harry's benefit or for Voldemort's is academic. Whether Dumbledore planned it, or merely accepted it, McGonagal will find out from his portrait if Snape was following his orders or not. Either way, Snape's double role is now over. He will no longer be able to spy on Hogwarts for Voldemort. Whether he will continue to work undercover for the Order is an open question.

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by IgoRetla

I afraid that I can't agree with that "stopper death" interpretation. To me, Snape was simply referring to the fact that he could teach students to brew potent poisons--after all, once they are in a flask or vial, you STOPPER them.

He didn't say stop death...

And, when I had high school chemistry at least, we certainly used rubber stoppers...

Well even if the wording isn't true, Dumbledore needed Snape to stay alive. Snape did something to help Dumbledore before, and Dumbledore was looking for that again.

[coco1965]

Originally Posted by Shewoman

He also suggests that most of what we see on the Tower is an act, that Dumbledore and Snape are using the link between Harry and Voldemort as a "mini-cam" in order to show Voldemort what they want him to see--Snape as a loyal DE, for instance. We're told that Voldemort is no longer trying to send Harry visions, but that doesn't mean he isn't looking through Harry's eyes.

I think this is very likely.

Granger says that, through Polyjuice, the "Dumbledore" who goes to the Dursleys at the beginning of HBP is Snape, that the one we see in the cave and on the Tower is Slughorn, and that Hagrid is also playing Dumbledore (but he doesn't say when). Dumbledore is dead--but he may not have died when we think he did.

I really like these ideas. Quite a while ago, I posted a theory on the RAB isn't Reg. thread that coinsides directly with the bolded line above. There were so many inconsistancies with Dumbledores character traits, that were in line with Slughorns, that they caused me to think that it was indeed Slughorn.

I'd really like to read Grangers entire theory. Where can it be found??

I am, however, quite convinced that there was more going on with Dumbledore's death than we know and that it isn't possible at this point to assess what happened. It's not like JKR's never pulled the rug out from under us before.

Couldn't agree more!

[Shewoman]

Coco, Granger edited a book called "Who Killed Albus Dumbledore?" that came out either in late 2006 or 2007. "Unlocking Harry Potter: 5 Keys for the Serious Reader" came out in March. They're both on Amazon.

In these books he gives some background for the theory but doesn't go through it minute-by minute.

Snape is the biggest mystery left in the series as far as I'm concerned. I'd bet my bank account (don't get excited; I'm a teacher) that JKR did not resolve that before the last book was published. The marketers of the book seem to agree. I think that'll be one of the last things resolved in DH.

[DBear]

I agree that Dumbledore was a dead man walking thruout HBP, and that Snape 'pulled the switch' to maintain cover. I had not noticed the underlined statement, but it would help to answer what some of the other kids of DEs are doing, such as Nott. There must be a reason that he doesn't seem to be pals w/Malfoy, as Crabbe and Goyle are.

[Hinoema]

Originally Posted by SusanBones111

I am quite convinced that Dumbledore's death was just as it looked on page. I don't believe he had suffered any worse of an injury than a dead hand from the ring protection. He even claimed that a dead hand was worth the price of a horcrux. He appears to function normally throughout the story. He is even able to swim into the cave, something that amazed Harry. He arrived on the Tower very sick from the potion, though.

What we read in the book is that a very worried Dumbledore orders Harry to stay under the cloak and to go straight to get Snape. Dumbledore hears someone coming up the stairs, petrifies Harry and becomes disarmed.

He has a nice chat with Draco about ways and means, convinced that Draco will not kill him. Then he offers to put Draco and his father into hiding, so that they are safe from Voldemort.

Death Eaters storm unto the Tower. Conversation continues. At this point, Dumbledore has probably figured out that he will soon be killed if no one comes up to help him. I am sure that he is very concerned with Harry's safety. Dumbledore can hear that there is quite a battle raging down below.

Snape arrives on the scene alone. He did not bring assistance. Snape and a healthy Dumbledore could most likely handle the situation, but a sick and unarmed man is not much help when there are so many bad guys.

Here is the dividing line. If Snape hadn't taken a vow to kill Dumbledore if Draco failed, then Snape would have to make a decision about what to do next.

But what Snape should do next becomes a moot point, a non-discussion item in my opinion. Snape took a vow, and he has only two choices. He can die from the effects of not carrying out the vow, or he can fulfill the vow. He chose to kill Dumbledore. It is very simple. I see the Tower scene as very clearcut, without any mystery at all. Of course, that is my opinion.

I agree. Snape's decision was made when he took the vow. He either had to ensure that Draco killed Dumbledore or do it himself, so Dumbledore's opinion on the matter became rather academic at that point.(I also don't believe that Snape told Dumbledore about the last clause, requiring Snape to finish the job should Draco fail.) I think Snape's act was out of expediency. Who will benefit from it remains to be seen.

[nezhpchik]

It was definately Snape on the tower. He revealed himself as the half blood prince, and no one else would have likely known that information. Snape was very much in character in the events after the tower. I also think DD begged Snape to kill him (Serveus...please..) in order to protect Harry and Draco.

[Scotty123]

I have always been unsatisfied with any of the three main theories of DDs death which can be summarized as
1: The "good" Snape "mercy killing" theory. this theory hods that DD was dying from the ring curse and or the potion curse and Snape killed DD to fulfill the vow, save his own life and is not culpable in the death of DD because he was dying anyway. I see this as flawed because it is fundamentally immoral and while it might have been expedient legally and morally it would be murder. It is not an impossible idea i just think it is implausible especially for a novel series largely about morality and the triumph of good over evil and love over hate. It also requires that Snape despite not really hating DD can cast a fatal AK which is directly against canon which clearly states that to cast an unforgivable curse "you really have to mean it".

1(A): The remarkably convenient coincidental death theory In this version of the theory the stigma of suicide and murder is removed. Snape casts a fake AK curse and DD dies shortly after as a result of the ring curse or the potion. This theory was until recently my favourite and it is most plausible on the assumption that DD and Snape could mentally communicate on the tower and Snape knows about Harry's presence. It is essential to prevent DDs instant death from an AK curse cast by any DE as this will expose Harry a he is unbound from DDs freeze the extra few moments are enough to allow Snape to lead the DEs away and prevent Harry's immediate capture. The flaw in the the theory is both the need for a level of mental communication not clearly supported in canon (although more than plausible) and the need for remarkably convenient timing of DDs death which would smack of sloppy potting. Still for me a workable theory but unsatisfying as it is full of loose plot points.

2: The literal reading theory. This theory holds that HBP should be read as a direct documentary of the actual situation, That Snape is and always has been evil and that Dumbledore trusts him, not for some exceptional reason of proof that is to sensitive to Snapes cover or Harry's Peace of mind to reveal but simply because he is a trusting old fool. The main obvious objection is that this would contradict every literary tradition of the novel which requires almost by definition that what we understand to be the case halfway through (JKR has stated that HBP and DH are one novel in two parts) can not be the true state of affairs. That is the main argument against this theory it can not of course be argued against strongly from canon since inherently this is the false impression deliberately intended by the author it is of course naturally well supported by canon. There are however many really difficult canon points almost impossible to resolve with this view. Not least the fact that at some point between OotP and HBP Snape held DDs life in his hands as a result of the ring curse and he saved DDs life. This is exceptionally hard to explain plausibly if Snape is truly Voldemort loyal evil Snape. There is no "he wants him for himself" justification There is no need for him to be kept alive for V interrogation Since V tried several times to kill him himself a few weeks before so why did Snape save his life? he could have allowed DD to die and not even been blamed for his death by the order maintaining his cover as a spy. The other main literary argument against this theory is that it means that Harry has been right all through HBP. Harry is still immature and to be convinced at the young age of not quite 17 that he is omniscient and his long time mentor DD was in fact a doddering old fool seems a recipe for disaster. Also where and how will Harry gather the necessary knowledge to complete his mission if he can not even trust the judgment of his greatest mentor and can not rely on any notes or memories DD has left for him. Conceivably JKR could simply not let Harry draw that near inescapable conclusion but that again would smack of sloppy plotting.

3: The Machiavellian theory. This theory holds that Snape is out for himself and Switches loyalties as is convenient finally deciding to throw in his lot with V at the tower or earlier at Spinners End. DD is killed by a real AK on the tower. This theory is attractive in that it leads to a potential plot twist that the final conflict will be between Snape and Harry rather than V and Harry. Another potential outcome is that there is a final redemption scene where Snape gives his life for the good side. This theory seems really messy to me but I understand its attractions. My main argument against it is that it is almost inconceivable that a Machiavellian Snape would have ever taken the vow. See my analysis here http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.ph...postcount=1454 it also fails to convince me for many of the same reasons as the pure evil Snape theory fails to convince.

In essence, for me at least, all of these mainstream theories seem to be too internally contradictory to provide for the possibility of a satisfactory resolution to the series or to provide a fully convincing reason for DD to die at all and while it is true that the genre invariably traditionally requires that "The old wizard with the beard always croaks so the hero can go on alone" it still needs a reasonable and suitably inevitable reason or it just looks contrived, So much so that I was beginning to dread real disappointment in the final outcome. Then I read Paintball's so called DIATSSISE theory!
This provides exactly that. A completely convincing and inescapable reason for DD to die where the alternative would be the inevitable triumph of Voldemort. It also explains why DDs "huger" mistake resulted from a miscalculation by a clever man rather than the result of the too trusting nature of an old fool.

Here is my summary of the theory here with some background to explain how the situation comes about. This theory solves all of the above dilemmas and leads to a wholly logical reason for DDs death while completely exonerating Snape. I provide a link further down to the main remaining thread on the theory where much more of the hints and proofs are discussed than I can cover here but this summary should cover most points well enough to explain the theories remarkable ideas.
........


At the end of GOF Dumbledore finds out from Harry that Voldemort has restored himself to a body and that Wormtial has assisted him for the last year as prophesied by Sybil. After his return he is reunited with some of his deatheaters and after failing to retrieve the prophecy he sends Wormtail away to Snape, probably partly to spy on Snape who's loyalty probably remains in some doubt but also probably because he is just fed up with the whining little rat.
This presents an opportunity for Snape to interrogate Wormtial but there is a problem. We know from the scene in Harry's dream of the riddle house and from the graveyard scene that Voldemort talks a lot to Nagini. In the Riddle house it is Nagini that tells Voldemort of the presence of Frank Bryce and we know that Dumbledore now knows that Voldemort has more affection for Nagini than for any other creature human or animal on earth. It is likely that Nagini is the mother of the reptilian "babymort".

It is essential to understand what Voldemort has been up to, as much as possible what he is planning and the details of his restoration first to babymort with Wormtails assistance and finally to his full restored body. Dumbledore needs Wormtails memories. Interrogating Wormtail and retrieving pensieve memories needs to be done with as little disruption to Wormtails routine as possible otherwise memory modification will have to be too severe and may either damage Wormtail or be too obvious to Voldemort. Unfortunately because there are many conversations between Nagini and Voldemort as Voldemort muses to his Familiar about his plans and uses Nagini to spy on the deatheaters it is essential that any legillimens selection of memories is carried out by someone who understands parseltongue (We know that Snape can not from COS). We know from the pensieve scene in the Gaunt house that Dumbledore while not a parselmouth as such can, as the expert linguist he is (fluent mermmish for example) can understand parseltongue he does not ask Harry to translate the parseltongue at the Gaunt house. DD is not vain and would certainly have asked for a translation from Harry if he could not understand it himself even if it were unlikely that anything important transpired as a matter of completeness he would want to know what was said, so we can take it that that DD understands Parseltongue. For DD to come to Spinners End and interrogate Wormtail would be too great a disruption and too hard to hide with memory modification so Dumbledore using transfiguration or Polyjuice impersonates Snape. we know from the Moody/ Crouch polyjuice transformation that polyjuice at least and probably transfiguration can remove and regrow limbs so it can easily disguise DDs burnt hand.
DD as Snape converses with Wormtial and uses legillimens and memory modification to allow him to select memories from Wormtails mind that he can study later at leisure in the pensieve. Wormtail thinks he has been "cleaning" although it is obvious from the description of the house that it has not been cleaned in some time. Dumbledore may have been visiting Wormtail for some time or it may have been a one off event. In any case while DD is at Spinners End the Black sisters arrive to visit Snape. Narcissa is extremely distressed about some plan of Voldemort's. DD realizes that the only thing likely to distress Narcissa this much is a risk to her son and guesses Voldemort's plan involves Draco. This means that the plan probably involves Hogwarts and either Harry or himself. In any case it is essential that he find out as much as he can. Bella is a problem though and is unlikely to allow Narcissa to talk freely. Dumbledore behaves in an un-Snape like way by explaining himself to Bella to try to allay her suspicions and baits her to make her angry and distract her. JKR seems to drop several hints that it is DD and not Snape in Spinners End. First of all he uses a classic Dumbledore catchphrase and mannerism interjecting "forgive me" into his insult about her defeat at the hands of schoolchildren at the MOM is one example . He talks in a thoughtful hesitant way typical of Dumbledore but completely atypical of Snape who tends to talk in clipped abrupt bold statements except in this scene in Spinners End. Additionally he offers Drinks This is Dumbledore trademark he always offers drinks even to the lady at Riddles orphanage. Snape never offers drinks. As if to hammer this point home DD offers drinks to the Dursleys in the next chapter and the drinks literally beat the Dursleys around the head when they don't drink them! It is almost as if JKR is beating the reader around the head with this clue There are many other hints and if you want to get more on the whole theory the "Assuming " thread is here

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.ph...48&postcount=1
Anyway to continue with the outline:

DD pretends to know more than he does about Vs plans in order to elicit more information. he offers to "help" and even suggests that V means for him to carry out the plan in the end in any case but Narcissa does not take the bait and reveal more because as they talk Narcissa becomes more and more agitated and fixated on Draco's safety and it is clear he can get nothing from her till she is reassured. He agrees to watch over and protect Draco. Narcissa is desperate for reassurance and asks that he take the unbreakable vow (she is literally on her knees begging!). At this point there is no mention of the vow involving completing the task it is merely a vow to do what DD would consider to be his duty as headmaster, to look after his pupils and protect them with his life. With this in mind he agrees to take the vow. To see a full analysis of the events leading up to the vow and why neither a Snape out for himself or an "evil" Snape would even have got to the point of being asked to take the vow see my post again here:
http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.ph...postcount=1454 It is written from the point of view of the three different Snape loyalties but works just as well for the DD scenario.

Unfortunately, Narcissa adds the unexpected clause about completing the task. In his effort to get her to spill the beans he had earlier used the gambit that he thinks V intends him to do "it" in the end so he can not refuse without blowing at least Snapes cover if not his own and consequently blowing all of the intelligence gathered by Snape and himself possibly even alerting V that he, DD, suspects about the Horcruxes. This is likely to be so devastating to the aims of the order that it effectively means either he has to to take the vow or accept the defeat of the Order and the virtual invincibility of Voldemort. He has the choice between losing his life or losing the war. He takes the vow. He knows that this means that he will die and to preserve Snapes cover it must appear to be at the hand of Snape at least to the deatheaters and so whatever happens he knows that Snape will not be able to continue as a double agent when that happens and will have to work full time undercover with the DEs. This means that he can give the DADA teaching post to Snape which he has not been able to do previously because of the Jinx. He also knows that changing the potions master will allow Harry to carry on with his ambition to be an Auror while that is a small compensation it is one extra reason other than just finally for old times sake granting Snapes wish to be DADA professor. It is interesting to note that even if there were a loophole in the vow or that by persuading Draco not to kill him Draco would not in fact have failed and so DD would potentially survive the one thing certain at Spinners End is that Snape can not continue for much longer as a double agent. If DD survives in disguise Snape will still have to appear to be guilty at least in DE eyes of being DDs killer and so can not also be seen to be trusted by the Order. DD knows that it is unlikely that he can escape but there are still many options at that stage as to how the scenario might play out.

Snape is not happy about this. Whatever happens he will have to go on the run as a death eater for one thing and even more with DD dead he has to rely totally on Harry to defeat Voldemort and for Harry to accept whatever plan DD has to explain to Harry what has happened. We know that Snape does not have a high opinion of Harry he considers him a mediocre wizard and not too bright so one can understand his comments that he "thinks DD is taking too much for granted" as Hagrid overhears in the forest.

Finally on the tower with the unexpected arrival of the DEs there is no delaying the inevitable any longer. Snape arrives on the tower and realizes he has to appear to kill DD. Full of revulsion and Hate about the consequences of this, his being hated by the order and having to live full time with V at risk at any moment of being asked to kill on the whim of V or to die at the whim of V, he nevertheless reluctantly honours his agreement with DD and appears to kill him but actually levitates DD off the tower and out of sight where he dies as a result of the vow. The extra few moments of life is crucial however as it gives time for Snape to lead the DEs away from Harry and prevent his inevitable capture as would have happened had DD been killed instantly by an AK unfreezing Harry who would then have revealed himself to the DEs while they still were close enough to capture him. (note that in this scenario whether or not Snape knew about Harry;s presence his actions would have been the same but it is likely that he did communicate. This acceptance of his role as the villain is an act of enormous courage and self sacrifice by Snape giving up everything for the cause in what to him must seem the vain hope that Harry is actually not the rather disappointing wizard he appears to be to Snape but actually capable of defeating the greatest evil wizard of all time. He does not hold out a lot of hope for that but he does his best to help Harry even coaching him in Duelling during his escape. Given the magnitude of his courage and self sacrifice implied by this theory it is no wonder that being called a coward by Harry really cuts to the quick.


I have covered the major plot points resolved by this theory above and there are more that it can resolve as can be seen in the main thread on the topic. The theory has recently been extended to show that there were other reasons beyond the parseltongue translation aspect that lead to explanations of why DD had Harry's cloak and why DD trusted Snape so completely so early as to allow him to teach at Hogwarts even before the fall of V but that would take us beyond the topic of this thread.
The main arguments against this theory that have been mentioned in its original thread (not the "Assuming" thread linked above) are that it would be "lame" for JKR to use the old polyjuice dodge again. This argument seems weak to me She has established transfiguration to be a common and essential tool of Aurors (See "careers advice" with MdGonnagal in OotP) She keeps reminding us of the possibility throughout OotP and HBP that people have to constantly check to be sure they are who they say they are yet no major character has yet turned out to be false since Moody in GOF far from being yet another instance of transfiguration it seems far more like an unrung bell. The argument seems perverse in that it seems that instead of claiming the idea is "far fetched" it is claiming in essence it is too "near fetched". Other people claim that this theory is too complex. Again this seems to be difficult to justify. The idea follows logically from what we know would be DDs motives and intentions and in fact if DD had not used some method to interrogate Wormtail he would have been clearly neglecting a critical source of information well within his reach. Not do it arguably would leave a rather large plot hole as to why not. It provides for a means of Harry being convinced of the truth of the situation via a single DD pensieve memory that could take little more than a page to deal with in DH if JKR wants to yet it provides flexibility in the plot as to when and how Harry learns the truth.
One other argument is that the time-line of the first four chapters would mean that not only would DD have to impersonate Snape at SE Snape would have to impersonate DD at the Dursleys. However a close reading of the time-line shows that that is not the case there is time for DD to be in both places. In fact one possible proof of the theory is that DD turns up at the Durlsey's dressed in black as is typical of Snape as opposed to colourful robes as is typical of DD if he has just transformed back from impersonating Snape this is exactly what we would expect.
There are other arguments against it that I have seen but most of those seem to have missed the point of the theory

I hope this has been of interest here I just thought that any discussion about DDs death had to include this theory to be complete.

[IntricateLogic]

Okay, so wait, what is the theory here? If it's just that Dumbledore was going to die anyway, then there is really no point discussing it, because I think that was kind of obvious. He was getting weaker throughout the whole book.

If the theory is that Snape was asked to kill Dumbledore by Dumbledore himself, then I very reluctantly believe this.
When Hagrid told Harry and Hermione what he had over-heard Dumbledore say to Snape, I think it could have been that Snape was getting cold feet, and Dumbledore had to argue with him to make him do it.
There are always people who believe that Dumbledore's plead of 'Severus...please...' was Dumbledore begging for his life, but it was not until I re-read the book that i put all the clues together. Dumbledore was not begging for his life, he was emploring Snape to take the opportunity. That also might be part of the reason why Dumbledore immobilized Harry. Dumbledore knew full well that Harry would have risked his life to stop Snape, which, if Dumbledore wanted to be 'put out of his misery', would have screwed things up a bit.

[negaprion]

Originally Posted by Scotty123

1(A): The remarkably convenient coincidental death theory In this version of the theory the stigma of suicide and murder is removed. Snape casts a fake AK curse and DD dies shortly after as a result of the ring curse or the potion. This theory was until recently my favourite and it is most plausible on the assumption that DD and Snape could mentally communicate on the tower and Snape knows about Harry's presence. It is essential to prevent DDs instant death from an AK curse cast by any DE as this will expose Harry a he is unbound from DDs freeze the extra few moments are enough to allow Snape to lead the DEs away and prevent Harry's immediate capture. The flaw in the the theory is both the need for a level of mental communication not clearly supported in canon (although more than plausible) and the need for remarkably convenient timing of DDs death which would smack of sloppy potting. Still for me a workable theory but unsatisfying as it is full of loose plot points.

I think this theory is much more plausible and requires less narrative explanation than the Dumbledore impersonated Snape theory. Your two main points against it are the lack of canon evidence for that type of communication and the "convenient" timing of DDs death - both of which I don't agree with.

As for the lack of cannon evidence - the communication only needed to be a one-way communication from Dumbledore to Snape - "Harry is magically bound in the corner." This level of communication has been shown as early as PS/SS - in front of the mirror of erised, LV knows not only that Harry is lying, but that the stone is in his pocket. Even in HBP, Snape has been shown to be able to get exactly the information he wants using Leglimancy - he called up Harry's Potions book without problem even though Harry was trying to block him. He could get much more from a willing partner.

As for the "convenient" timing of DDs death, I couldn't disagree more - it may have been convenient for the plot, but it was completely inconvenient for Dumbledore and Snape's plan. If things had gone the planned way, Harry would have remained safe and away from flying Unforgivable Curses until the DEs were away from Hogwarts. As it was, Snape had to come back to save him several times. Also, had DD lived a while longer, he might have been able to tell an Order member what happened and saved Snape from being viewed as a murderer. All in all - DDs quick death was completely inconvenient in every way -except as a plot device. As a plot device, it require a much less convoluted explanation in Book 7 than any other explanation other than Snape is evil and murdered Dumbledore, which is still possible.