If R.A.B. isn't Regulus A. Black, then who is s/he? And who helped them? v10

[SageThyme]

Version 9

Please use this thread to discuss the identity of R.A.B., assuming that he isn't Regulus A. Black. If you strongly believe that R.A.B. is Regulus, then please go and discuss in this thread.

The last few posts from the previous installment follow:

Last few posts:    

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Originally Posted by Phil_Stone To follow Cab's idea, if Trelawny is channeling someone, they had to die prior to the Prophacy, prior to Goderic's Hollow. That doesn't appear to tell us much. There are many people, including Regulus, which fit that detail. But it would exclude anyone who is still alive. But there seems to be at least two general ways to go. 1) The person being channeled is a seer, one who either made this prophacy before death, and was taking advantage of Trelawny's interview to make sure that Dumbledore gets the information, or is predicting from beyond the grave. The latter seems unlikely. 2) The person being channeled is not a seer, but someone (now dead) with a plan. What could it be? Why put anyone in danger as the Prophacy did, unless it was part of a plan to trap Voldemort? Is it possible, that when the note was written, the writer expected Dumbledore to be Voldemort's opponant? In either case, to follow Cab's idea, The Voice is also responsible for the note in the locket in the Cave. That person is clearly dedicated to fighting Voldemort, so anticipating Voldemort meeting his match could be from hope as much as knowledge. But such a person might also fabricate a prophacy to manipulate Voldemort. Going to the question of Prophacy vs. Channeling, while Harry wouldn't know the difference, wouldn't Dumbledore? Is his skepticism about Divination supposed to make us doubt his knowledge of the subject? Wouldn't he realize that Trelawny was channeling rather than predicting? And if he did, why hire Trelawny to teach divination? Unless he thought the subject was so worthless that it didn't matter who taught it? Are there any other cases of Prophacy that we see which we can compare to this example? Any other cases of the dead speaking through an intermediary? The alternative is that this is what JKR means to be seeing the future, evn if it doesn't seem that way. Originally Posted by cab2311 The other prediction she gave was in PoA, which, as I said, she had no idea she said anything at all. Other than that... we have the fact that there are ghosts flying around, portraits that can talk and move around, and tons and tons of prophecies in the Hall of Prophecies. However, I discovered something interesting that I posted a long time ago in the Time-Travel thread that may come into play here. According to Wikipedia, Time Travel, the type of time travel that we saw in PoA was called, a predestination paradox. They were caught in a loop of events that "predestined" them to travel back in time. Now, There is a variation on the predestination paradox which involves information, rather than objects, traveling through time. Coincidently, this type of time travel involving information only, is one way in which a self-fulfilling prophecy can be told. In conclusion, what I am suggesting...are we all sitting down? ...is that someone sent this information back in time and channeled it through Trelawney. Therefore, this person didn't need to have died prior to the prophecy. They would just need to have the ability to send information back in time to a specific person at a specific time. Many people share the assumption that Dumbledore knows what is going on, past, present, and future. I'd put him on the block as a candidate to have told this prophecy to himself, but I get stumped on why the prediction was told to Harry in PoA. This relates to R.A.B. because I do not believe anyone prior to Dumbledore and Harry entered the cave after Voldemort set his traps. I believe Dumbledore stole the real Horcrux and sent it back in time to #12 GP where Harry and company found a locket no one could open. Because of the time-travel angle and Dumbledore's ability to know what's going on, as I said, I believe he brought the fake locket and note. In my opinion, the note was for Harry. I don't believe R.A.B. wrote the note, it is a clue to where the real locket is located. Therefore, I am not exactly saying that R.A.B. is channeling through Trelawney. I am saying that since I see a connection between the note and the prophecy, the one to leave the note is the one sending information to be channeled through Trelawney.

Please continue with the regularly scheduled programming.

[Phil_Stone]

Cab2311- Ok, so Dumbledore would not give away that Trelawny was not predicting because he would want to keep secret that he spoke to himself, and it is an edge to know that the "Prophacy" is more than a Prophacy.

Because the Official record is based upon Dumbledore's report/recollection, and what Harry knows is likewise based upon what Dumbledore chose to tell him, only he would know that there was additional data to confirm who was sending the information back through time. Except, perhaps, for what Snape heard. And what Snape told Voldemort.

Dumbledore confirmed for Harry that his experiance was of another Prophacy. Perhaps the point was to to set Harry up for Book 7. This could be the way that Dumbledore (from the future) can communicate information to Harry after Dumbledore's death in HBP. But that presents two problems. First, since the contemporary Dumbledore is dead, who is the Dumbledore in the Future? Second, Trelawny is one of Harry's least favorite teachers, so how could his presence be anticipated to recieve any message through Trelawny? Especially since Dumbledore is dead, and so has no first hand experiance of Trelawny and Harry being together at some specific time.

The underlying idea is apparently that the Dumbledore of the future sends the message because he had already received the message from himself. But why? Why bother with a prophacy? If Dumbledore is dead, then Dumbledore from the future would have to be Dumbledore from the past, gone into the future,and returned. So contemporary Dumbledore would know what Dumbledore of the future would know. So the only point of a prophacy is to have a prophacy, to drive Voldemort, and to use as bait. But someone had to create the plan, and that would seem to imply knowing what would happen at Goderic's Hollow. Or perhaps I am not picturing this correctly.

[cab2311]

Originally Posted by Phil_Stone

Cab2311- Ok, so Dumbledore would not give away that Trelawny was not predicting because he would want to keep secret that he spoke to himself, and it is an edge to know that the "Prophacy" is more than a Prophacy.

I guess if he actually knew where the information was coming from. But perhaps he didn't.

Originally Posted by Phil_Stone

This could be the way that Dumbledore (from the future) can communicate information to Harry after Dumbledore's death in HBP. But that presents two problems. First, since the contemporary Dumbledore is dead, who is the Dumbledore in the Future?

I am not suggesting that we will see Dumbledore in DH because he traveled to the future. I am not really sure how all of this will be revealed, but in my suggestion, it is information traveling through time and not Dumbledore. I don't know how information is sent through time in the form of a prophecy, but in literature and film, is seems to be done a lot. If anyone can do it, Dumbledore can.

Originally Posted by Phil_Stone

The underlying idea is apparently that the Dumbledore of the future sends the message because he had already received the message from himself. But why? Why bother with a prophacy? If Dumbledore is dead, then Dumbledore from the future would have to be Dumbledore from the past, gone into the future,and returned. So contemporary Dumbledore would know what Dumbledore of the future would know.

I see the complexity in this theory when someone else is trying to understand it. But I do beleive you are over thinking it; it is much more simple. The prophecy would be information traveling through time, not a person, as the definition implies. The information could have been sent prior to or after the person's death.

Originally Posted by Phil_Stone

So the only point of a prophacy is to have a prophacy, to drive Voldemort, and to use as bait. But someone had to create the plan, and that would seem to imply knowing what would happen at Goderic's Hollow. Or perhaps I am not picturing this correctly.

As we see in PoA, Dumbledore & McGonagall made sure Harry and Hermione went back in time to do what they had already done and nothing more. They were in a loop of events that predestined them to travel back in time. Was there an original plan created? It's like...Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did the time travel come first or did the event they were sent to do? It really bakes your noodle when you try to over think it.

Anyway, Dumbledore is just my suggestion. I don't believe Regulus stole the Horcrux so I don't believe it is him doing the channeling. But...I am certain Trelawney is channeling someone and I am suspecting that someone is responsible for the note in the cave. Since I already believe Dumbledore is responsible for the note, the easy part for me was to suggest Dumbledore is responsible for the prophecies to himself and Harry as well.

By the way... Can anyone make out who is in the crystal ball prior to Harry receiving the message through Trelawney in the movie? That part is not in the book.

[dill]

Originally Posted by cab2311

I It really bakes your noodle when you try to over think it.

that is why the use of time turners is highly regulated--the government only wants half baked noodles in proper society

[odog552]

I really enjoyed reading some of the previous versions. I thought the theory on Dumbledore's brother was really good. I have to say, some of you are very clever in finding these clues, and reading between the lines.

If he really is R.A.B., then perhaps the goat thing would make sense. I mean, bezoars come from the stomachs of goats, and they are used to protect wizards from poisons. If Aberforth was messing around with goats, then maybe he was trying to get bezoars, in preparation to drink the potion from the basin in HBP.

I havent read all of the versions of this tread, so someone please tell me if this has been brought up.

[momeve]

Originally Posted by odog552

I really enjoyed reading some of the previous versions. I thought the theory on Dumbledore's brother was really good. I have to say, some of you are very clever in finding these clues, and reading between the lines.

If he really is R.A.B., then perhaps the goat thing would make sense. I mean, bezoars come from the stomachs of goats, and they are used to protect wizards from poisons. If Aberforth was messing around with goats, then maybe he was trying to get bezoars, in preparation to drink the potion from the basin in HBP.

I havent read all of the versions of this tread, so someone please tell me if this has been brought up.

Holy Moly! This is a new one to me! WHat a cool idea! Good job and welcome by the way. That's a great explanation for the goat thing. I mean, thinking about bezoars now, it seems too great a coincidence for Aberforth to have a thing for goats and not.... aarvarks.

[odog552]

Originally Posted by momeve

Holy Moly! This is a new one to me! WHat a cool idea! Good job and welcome by the way. That's a great explanation for the goat thing. I mean, thinking about bezoars now, it seems too great a coincidence for Aberforth to have a thing for goats and not.... aarvarks.

Gee thanks! it just kinda came to me after reading some of the interesting theories on this thread. If someone has already thought of this, then by all means let me know. I would hate for someone to think that I stole an idea.

but in an case, wouldnt it be cool if what Aberforth was doing was trying to get bezoars? That might help solidify some of the theories out there...

[Phil_Stone]

odog552- I don't recall where I saw it, but I have previously seen mention of the connection between bezoars and Ableforth's legal troubles. It is still a good point in understandinig Ableforth, but I am not sure how far it takes us re. RAB. I don't recall when the goat trouble was mentioned, but why would Ableforth not tell his brother?

Cab2311- Ok, well I thought part of the point of the voice being Dumbledore was to give Albus enough knowledge of what was happening to choose to keep what it really was a secret, and pass it off as a prophacy. As I am thinking about it now, Dumbledore could well choose to do the same if the message was from another. But there is another wrinkle. Would it not have to be someone he trusted though?

If it was a channelling, and not a prophacy, then Snape should have know that too. If he told Voldemort it was a prophacy, when he knew it was not, we might wonder why. If it was because Dumbledore wanted him to do so, then perhaps this is part of the reason Dumbledore trusts him.

If prophacy normally comes without warning and leaves the profit unknowing, then I would think that standard procedure would be to have a n acolyte at hand at all times, to insure the prophacy was recorded. The fact that Trelawney doesn't even bother with a self scribbling quill like Rita Skeeter suggests that is not normal for prophacy.

As for overthinking the Time Traveling, perhaps you are correct. But the careful way JKR put together the finale of PoA suggests that if Time TRavel is again involved, it will be a well written matter. I am not sure about what you refer to as predestination. What I see is JKR putting it together with respect for, and trying to avoid paradoxes. Harry and Hermione dont go back to change much. The point of their trip is to be in position to rescue Sirius from the Tower before the Dementors get there, and that had not happened yet. There is no way, for example, for their success to make their trip unnecessary.

Likewise, Time travelling Prophacy speakers still have to make some sense. Information must have a source, so it doesn't make the actions of the people involved irelevant. Someone had to be somewhere to send the message, and they had to have knowledge to make the message significant.

I am inclined to think that JKR had Hermione point out that all the Time Turners at the Ministry had been destroyed as a way of saying that she has used that device and will not do it again. If that is correct, than whoever Trelawny is channeling is probably not Dumbledore. Since Seer's claim to be able to see things in Crystal balls, I wonder if they can use mirrors, like the one Sirius gave Harry?

[SeverusLovesUs]

Originally Posted by cab2311

Anyway, Dumbledore is just my suggestion. I don't believe Regulus stole the Horcrux so I don't believe it is him doing the channeling. But...I am certain Trelawney is channeling someone and I am suspecting that someone is responsible for the note in the cave. Since I already believe Dumbledore is responsible for the note, the easy part for me was to suggest Dumbledore is responsible for the prophecies to himself and Harry as well.
.

I just wanted to address to comment I saw about Dumbledore stealing the real locket and sending it back in time to where they found it at Order headquarters in OotP. Why would he do this? Why would he not use his supposed knowledge from the future to help Harry more effieciently if he was going to do it at all? Why would he send the real locket back instead of keeping it, destroying it, and relating to Harry that the diary is gone and the ring and locket as well. I don't see Dumbledore doing this stuff, making things harder on Harry than he has to. In HBP Dumbledore is guessing at everything. If he knew more they would use that information.

[cab2311]

What I am trying to say is that it is a prophecy. Trelawney is the profit in this case because how ever it came, it came through her. But we see in PoA that she has no idea she is saying anything, therefore the prophecy is being channeled through her, but it is still a prophecy.

Prior to the use of time travel as a plot device, the self-fulfilling prophecy variant was more common. The earliest and most famous example being the ancient Greek legend of Oedipus. Shakespeare's MacBeth is another classic example. There are countless examples more recent. We do not need to have a time traveller, it is information that is sent back in time and revealed through several different means. In Harry Potter, the means is a seer, but the catch is, she doesn't have the gift.

I am not sure about what you refer to as predestination.

A predestination paradox exists when a time traveller is caught in a loop of events that "predestines" him or her to travel back in time. In most examples of the predestination paradox, the person travels back in time and ends up fulfilling their role in an event that has already occurred.

I am inclined to think that JKR had Hermione point out that all the Time Turners at the Ministry had been destroyed as a way of saying that she has used that device and will not do it again.

And you could be correct. I don't see there being any actual time travel involving time-turners in DH. However, we could see another type of time-travel done without the use of a time-turner. We are dealing with magic here. Also, the revelation that time travel occured right under our noses could be seen and that is really the basis of the prophecy theory.

As far as who R.A.B. could be...I could be over-analyzing this and there isn't really any connection between the note and the prophecies. But I do find it strange that the profit referred to Voldemort as the dark lord in both predictions. That is what makes me think the note is connected because it was addressed to the dark lord. I don't see a DE using that address if he or she is stealing Voldemor's Horcrux. That is if the Horcrux was really stolen by someone other than Harry and Dumbledore. Reading the discussions in the R.A.B. is Regulus thread makes me more and more convinced the locket was in the basin when Dumbledore and Harry reached the island.

[dasfres]

I was just looking at the HP lexicon list of all wizards whose initials have/ may be R.A.B. (some we don't know full names for):

Ludo Bagman's father: friend of a death eater (rookwood), no first name

Regulus Black: Sirius's brother, but we agree it isn't him.

**Regulus Black: The other R.?.B. (I think he's Sirius's great uncle) 1906-1959, so he died after Voldy started to make horcruxes (c.1944), making it possible that he destroyed one. The note, "I will be dead by the time you read this" makes a little more sense, as he was much older than the other Regulus. We don't know much about him, but I think it would be a very interesting twist if RAB was Regulus Black, but not the one everyone expects. In addition, he would still match up with the translated versions (the 'B' changes to the first letter of other languages' words for Black)

Susan Bones's relatives: Approx. 5 (I think. I don't feel like listing them out) were killed by death eaters. Hmmmm, I wonder why? More importantly, did any of their first names begin with 'R'?

Rudolf Brand: A living quidditch player, doubtful.

Rupert 'Axebanger' Brookstanton: Hermione came up with this one. I don't know much other than that, but he's got the 'A' in there between an 'R' and a 'B'. You never know!

Rosalind Antigone Bungs: Another Hermione one. That girl knows her wizards.

[Queen_Danu]

you forgot one of LV's old bosses, Mr, Burke of Borgin and Burkes. I'm sure that he knew LV had the locket, since he knew Hepzibah Smith had it and then it disappeared 2 days after he sent LV to retrieve some unknown item (wondering what that was by the way) How much did Burke know about LV? Maybe he knew a lot more than he let on, was he a DE?? He could be the mysterious R.A.B.

[DBear]

Also, there is a Burke in one of the upper branches of the Black Family tree, so it could be a relative of the proprietor of B&B's in Knockturn Alley.

[cab2311]

Originally Posted by SeverusLovesUs

I just wanted to address to comment I saw about Dumbledore stealing the real locket and sending it back in time to where they found it at Order headquarters in OotP. Why would he do this? Why would he not use his supposed knowledge from the future to help Harry more effieciently if he was going to do it at all? Why would he send the real locket back instead of keeping it, destroying it, and relating to Harry that the diary is gone and the ring and locket as well. I don't see Dumbledore doing this stuff, making things harder on Harry than he has to. In HBP Dumbledore is guessing at everything. If he knew more they would use that information.

A while back I made a list of what needed to be done to get to the basin in the cave. There are a lot of good theories, but there is always a snag. I concluded that I don't think the Horcrux was stolen at all prior to Harry and Dumbledore reaching the basin. So why wasn't it there? We know there was a locket in the basin after the Potion was completely drained. We know Dumbledore scooped it up and put it in his pocket. We don't know what that locket looked like since it is made clear that Harry didn't pay any attention to it. Could it have been the Horcrux? If so, what happened to it?
Stepping back a bit, it is also made clear that Dumbledore didn't know what Horcrux was in the basin, but he was sure there was one in the basin. Dumbledore and Harry couldn't see what was in the basin other than the Potion. It appears to me that the locket wasn't inside the basin until the Potion was drained. Harry scraped the bottom of the basin, but there was no mention of the locket until he reached for the goblet to get water for Dumbledore. The note, while left in a locket that was obviously different, mentions only that the Horcrux was stolen.

Ok, so here we are...

(1)If the Horcrux was in the basin when Harry and Dumbledore reached the island as I believe, what happened to it?
It could have been transfigured by Dumbledore, it could be in his other pocket, or it could have been sent back in time to keep it safe from the DE's
(this theory also suggests that Dumbledore knew what was going to happen on the Tower.)
(2)Is the locket found at #12 GP Slytherin's locket? If so, how'd it get there?
The only way the locket at #12 GP, going with my theory, could be Slytherin's is if another Horcrux was in the basin or Dumbledore sent the locket back in time after he got it into his pocket.
(3)Was the Horcrux originally in the basin really Slytherin's locket?
If it was another Horcrux, the same questions apply...What happened to it?

In any event...I believe the note left in the locket is a cryptic message for Harry. The R.A.B. signiture is what is going to lead Harry to Slytherin's locket. How he is going to determine this, well there are always snags

[bigjimmy]

Hey, i just thought of a great idea. What if RAB is a pseudonym? We could be on the completely wrong path. RAB could be anyone. It could be harry's father for all we know.

[Phil_Stone]

BigJimmy-It would have to be a pseudonym which Voldemort knew, or there would be no point to the note.

[Murzim]

Originally Posted by Queen_Danu

you forgot one of LV's old bosses, Mr, Burke of Borgin and Burkes. I'm sure that he knew LV had the locket, since he knew Hepzibah Smith had it and then it disappeared 2 days after he sent LV to retrieve some unknown item (wondering what that was by the way) How much did Burke know about LV? Maybe he knew a lot more than he let on, was he a DE?? He could be the mysterious R.A.B.

Mr Burkes first name is Caractacus no middle name is mentioned, so his initials would be C.(?).B. that doesn't rule out a brother, wife or child, whom he might have told about the locket.

Originally Posted by Phil_Stone

BigJimmy-It would have to be a pseudonym which Voldemort knew, or there would be no point to the note.

That goes for initials as well as a pseudonym.
Maybe Harry should ask Voldy who R.A.B was.

[cab2311]

Originally Posted by Murzim

Maybe Harry should ask Voldy who R.A.B was.

Perhaps Voldy doesn't know...


***I realize this was stated in humor and while my reply was also...I do feel this is the case.

[Jordaam]

I wonder if there is any way that RAB could be a group. I realize the note sounds like it was from one person, but we've seen groups like the DA go by initials only for secrecy.This would explain how it was possible to replenish the basin, which is certainly a two person job. Maybe it was something similar to a primitive Order? Or a group of runaway Death Eaters? Just a thought...feel free to constructively criticize!!!

Amy

[Murzim]

Originally Posted by cab2311

Perhaps Voldy doesn't know...

***I realize this was stated in humor and while my reply was also...I do feel this is the case.

But like bigjimmy said: there would be no point to the ' I want you to know it was me' in the note then.

R.A.B.'s note To the Dark Lord, I know I will be dead long before you read this, but I want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret. I have stolen the real Horcrux and intent to destroy it as soon as I can. I face death in the hope that when you meet your mach you will be mortal once more. R.A.B.

Originally Posted by Jordaam

I wonder if there is any way that RAB could be a group. I realize the note sounds like it was from one person, but we've seen groups like the DA go by initials only for secrecy.This would explain how it was possible to replenish the basin, which is certainly a two person job. Maybe it was something similar to a primitive Order? Or a group of runaway Death Eaters? Just a thought...feel free to constructively criticize!!!

The note was first person, and I don't think a group would say: 'I will be dead'