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Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died?



 
 
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  #41  
Old June 27th, 2007, 5:55 pm
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en...view.cfm?id=80
Quote:
"there is more to come on Rita."
I'm another one in support of Rita being the one to spread the word of the attack to the Wizarding World. I just cannot see anyone else being willing to, or able. Harry, James, Lily, and Voldemort are out. Peter Pettigrew (if he was there) just wouldn't give out that information.

I don't believe Dumbledore was there, and I really don't believe he would spread the word if he was. Dumbledore has shown his discretion throughout the series; if the story isn't his to tell, he doesn't. I make an exception for him telling Harry about Neville's parents, as it has to do with Harry's story, too. He took Harry to Privet Dr, yes, firstly, for the blood protection, but secondly, he didn't want Harry growing up famous for something he wouldn't even remember.
Quote:
"Exactly," said Dumbledore, looking very seriously over the top of his half-moon glasses. "It would be enough to turn any boy's head. Famous before he can walk and talk! Famous for something he won't even remember! Can't you see how much better off he'll be, growing up away from all that until he's ready to take it?"
We've seen Rita use her animagus form to get a story unnoticed before, as ChemJohn pointed out, in GoF. I suspect she was already reporting for the Daily Prophet before the attack on Godric's Hollow, because she was the one that let out Aberforth's goat-charming incident. I know there isn't canon that shows when that happened... to me, JKR not dating Aberforth's trouble was her not wanting to let out that Rita could be the source of the knowledge of GH. But we have Rita Skeeter working as a reporter right after GH, at the Karkaroff trial- I'd think that would be a big story, not for some junior reporter, and who better than the person that got the scoop on the Potters' deaths, and downfall of Voldemort?

Rita Skeeter has the ability to be there unnoticed, and would have had the resources to get the word out quickly and in detail. I can't (or won't) see it spreading through the Wizarding World in the fashion it did unless it was her. She seems to be the only character in the entirety of the series that has that capability.



Last edited by IchLiebeGeorge; June 27th, 2007 at 6:02 pm. Reason: Added quote
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  #42  
Old June 27th, 2007, 6:07 pm
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

Although I like some of the other ideas, (Rita Skeeter is brilliant!), I have long believed that the only way for Dumbledore to know as much as he did early on was to time travel to Godric's Hollow. I doubt that Order members were in the house for protection. It seems more likely that Lily sent a patronus to Dumbledore as soon as Voldemort arrived. By the time he got to Godric's Hollow the battle was over, only baby Harry remained with a new unusual scar. Voldemort is no where to be found.

JKR needs to tie up a lot of loose ends at Godric's Hollow. Dumbledore time travelling answers all of our questions using a most reliable source. It also helps to answer the mystery of the missing day. Albus knew about the blood protection started by Lily and he knew that Voldemort was not dead. Granted he could have learned some of this from another eye witness, but the blood protection was obscure ancient magic that most wizards are unfamiliar with and may have overlooked. Even Dumbledore may not have realized all the implications immediately, which is why he needed time to research the blood protection and formulate a plan to protect Harry by using Lily's sacrifice. All of this information is probably stored in Dumbledore's pensieve which must come into play in the final book.


  #43  
Old June 27th, 2007, 6:17 pm
GinnyIsCool2  Female.gif GinnyIsCool2 is offline
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaSofia View Post
I have just came up with an idea...
I have already posted before that i don't believe LV was at GH with someone of DEs, because if he wanted to make horcrux he wouldn't like to be known. What if at GH was RAB ( if we assume that RAB isn't Sirius brother because he died by the hands of LV ) who is another DE who came along with LV? Or if RAB was a wizard ( who could be there by DDs orders and under the invisibility cloak of James or he was there by accident in wrong place - wrong time) that after seeing what happened that night, he would certainly assumed that LV didn't die because he made a horcrux. So after that night RAB was searching for LVs horcruxes. It would explain who RAB is and how he found out about horxruxes.
But, IMO, i doubt that RAB was there by DDs orders because i think he would told DD about his thoughts of LVs horcruxes. Both DD and RAB would search together on finding horcruxes.
whoa.

that actually makes sense! especially since dd seemed to know lv would return @ the end of ss, almost as if he knew there were horcruxes!
but then again, he would have known that RAB had gotten to the horcrux before him and would therefore have tried to find another, so maybe RAB wasnt working on dd orders, but was independent, and dd figured out the bit about the horcruxes on his own.

whoa.



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  #44  
Old June 27th, 2007, 6:31 pm
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

totally thrilled the thought of Rita being there is possible....anyone have something to debunk or support it?
it just makes sooooo much sense.


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  #45  
Old June 27th, 2007, 6:45 pm
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

So many exciting ideas. Here's one I realized reading the posts. If someone were present during that night, is it possible they know process of making horcruxes? I thought that might be interesting, and I love the idea that it could be Rita. Brilliant stuff.


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  #46  
Old June 27th, 2007, 7:21 pm
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

I personally, don't think anybody (other than RAB) knew about the Horcruxes until DD told Harry and Harry told the trio. I think DD might have wondered off and on about the idea of a Horcrux, but I don't think he did much with his wonderings until CoS when he saw the diary and realized that, not only did Voldy have a Horcrux, but he had multiple Horcruxes. That's more opinion than anything else, but I don't think Voldy was careless enough to let people in on the secret. He didn't even tell Malfoy what he was giving him to sneak to Hogwarts until after it was destroyed.

And, I'm not really a fan of the time-traveling theories. I just think it gets way too complicated and confusing. I think it muddies things up more than it solves.

But I really like Rita. And I can only find evidence that suggests the theory is possible; I can't find any that suggests it's impossible. Does anybody have anything to suggest our Rita theory is bad?


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  #47  
Old June 28th, 2007, 7:35 pm
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

The only evidence i can find around that time period involving rita is the court trial of bagman in the pensieve. She is not mentioned in karkaroffs or crouch jrs case, so i do not want to assume that she was there obviously.

The only evidence i think worth noting is how harry notices that ludo was "at the height of his quidditch playing fitness." Ludo played for the wasps, and they were their best in the around 1980, just before harry was born.

Another bit we could use if we assume that Rita was at Karkaroffs trial is that moody has 2 normal eyes. When and how did he lose his eye? If that was before the events at Godrics hollow, then we can conclude that Rita was employed by the Daily prophet.

Now i know Rita is always out for the story so i dont think it would matter to her if she was employed or not but i think it is safe to say that she was employed and as far as i can tell, it is definitely possible she was there.

Anyone else have anything refuting Rita being there?


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  #48  
Old June 28th, 2007, 7:48 pm
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

I'll fact find when I get home, or if someone else beats me to it, please do so, all of those trials happened around the same time, give or take, and I seem to recall him recognizing Rita at Kakaroff's trial...is that the case, or was it another?


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  #49  
Old June 28th, 2007, 8:32 pm
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

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Originally Posted by whitherwings View Post
Another bit we could use if we assume that Rita was at Karkaroffs trial is that moody has 2 normal eyes. When and how did he lose his eye? If that was before the events at Godrics hollow, then we can conclude that Rita was employed by the Daily prophet.
Karkaroff's trial was after Godric's Hollow and the fall of Voldemort, so he lost his eye after VWI.
Quote:
The only evidence i think worth noting is how harry notices that ludo was "at the height of his quidditch playing fitness." Ludo played for the wasps, and they were their best in the around 1980, just before harry was born.
The HPL has his aquittal in 1982, but I like your note about the Wasps and Bagman being at the height of his fitness. Their reasoning for 1982 was Crouch's presiding over the trial, but elsewhere they say he was demoted (fell from grace is the phrase they use) after his son's arrest- 1982 doesn't make sense to me then, because BCJr's trial is said to be late 1981.
Quote:
She is not mentioned in karkaroffs or crouch jrs case, so i do not want to assume that she was there obviously.
I know the movies aren't canon, but wasn't she at Karkaroff's trial in GoF movie? JKR does consult with them and I'd think she'd not allow it if it wasn't true.

Again, I'd like to point out Aberforth's goat-charming and the fact that Rita reported it. I have a hard time believing it was something that happened post-GH. No one in recent times seems to know Albus has a brother; if that story came out post-GH I'd think more people would have known the fact. I'm sure the article would have been along the lines of, "Hogwarts headmaster's brother..." Maybe not in those terms, but they would have used Aberforth's name in the report and I doubt Dumbledore is that common that people wouldn't pick up on it. I really believe JKR added that fact to show Rita working before the GH attack.



Last edited by IchLiebeGeorge; June 28th, 2007 at 8:34 pm.
  #50  
Old June 28th, 2007, 8:53 pm
Minerva_RDM  Undisclosed.gif Minerva_RDM is offline
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

1) Has anyone considered that the reason we know so much about what happend inside the Potter's house is because there was a portrait in side the house (think about OOTP).

2) The protection was not on the Potters but on the house. When Sirius left the house he could be seen. It seems reasonable that if the Potters ventured outside of the house they would be able to be seen. So there possible could have been someone stationed near the house on Dumbledores orders.

3) But again, for us to have so much detail about the events inside the house (for instance, the conversation between Voldermort and Lily ) it makes more sense that the events were witnessed by an occupant of a portrait and then that occupant reported to Dumbledore.


  #51  
Old June 28th, 2007, 9:08 pm
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

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Originally Posted by Minerva_RDM View Post
1) Has anyone considered that the reason we know so much about what happend inside the Potter's house is because there was a portrait in side the house (think about OOTP).

2) The protection was not on the Potters but on the house. When Sirius left the house he could be seen. It seems reasonable that if the Potters ventured outside of the house they would be able to be seen. So there possible could have been someone stationed near the house on Dumbledores orders.

3) But again, for us to have so much detail about the events inside the house (for instance, the conversation between Voldermort and Lily ) it makes more sense that the events were witnessed by an occupant of a portrait and then that occupant reported to Dumbledore.
I don't know why JKR would have Flitwick say, "Even if You-Know-Who had his nosed pressed up against the sittingroom window..." if the FC was on the house. I think the Potters were the object of the charm, not the house. Harry couldn't see #12 until he was told the secret. If Voldemort could press his nose to the window, that shows the house itself wasn't what was protected.

I agree the Wizarding World (and us) having so much detail of that night shows there was a witness. But if it was a portrait reporting to Dumbledore, how do you explain the rest of the world knowing? I can't accept that Dumbledore went and told everyone.


  #52  
Old June 28th, 2007, 9:48 pm
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

Quote:
Originally Posted by chemJohn View Post
Now, our proposed mystery guest...none other than Rita Skeeter.
[...]
Being a Daily Prophet writer, or perhaps THIS story got her the gig, she'd have the mouthpiece to get the story out as fast as it did....let's face it, it did spread like wild fire. The ministry would be ALL TOO WILLING to let it spread, and used the daily prophet to spread the word, just like they used it to crush Harry the first 80% of OOTP. We've seen Rita have a habit of hiding on windows....she did it in the hospital wing in GOF.
It seems I am the only one not to believe in this theory... Nah, I doubt that, but either way I have to explain why I don't like it, right?

If we believe Rita was there, the purpose is among other things to explain why Dumbledore knew so much about what happened at GH, right? But that doesn't make sense, in my opinion. When Dumbledore joined McGonagall at the Dursleys' house, McG said that the Potters were rumoured to be dead. If she had read it in the paper, then how could Dumbledore confirm it? Did he have another source than the paper? That makes the theory less useful, if you ask me. If McG didn't have the assumption from the Daily Prophet, then was Dumbledore's answer based on what he had read in the paper? Did Dumbledore trust the Daily Prophet at that time? Concerning something so serious?

Dumbledore did confirm that the Potters were dead. This indicates that he had a different source of information than McG had. I don't think the Daily Prophet was that source. And I don't see why Rita would tell Dumbledore personally either. Rita being at GH explains why everyone knew about what happened there so quickly, but it doesn't explain Dumbledore's extensive knowledge of the details of what happened.

By the way: I know some people think Dumbledore didn't need any extra information; that he understood what must have happened by looking at the consequences. But that just doesn't convince me. I think he must have had information from an eyewitness that at least saw the AK backfire. That's my opinion.


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  #53  
Old June 28th, 2007, 10:01 pm
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

Quote:
Originally Posted by crookshanksfan View Post
This indicates that he had a different source of information than McG had.
I can't speak for the others, but I agree with this. I think Rita was the source for the Wizarding World's knowledge of the events, but Dumbledore had another. The portrait idea could be his.


  #54  
Old June 28th, 2007, 10:04 pm
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

Has anyone thought of the possibility that Binns was at godric's hollow? it's certainly much easier for a ghost to remain unseen/unheard than a wizard/muggle.


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  #55  
Old June 28th, 2007, 11:00 pm
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

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Originally Posted by crookshanksfan View Post
It seems I am the only one not to believe in this theory... Nah, I doubt that, but either way I have to explain why I don't like it, right?

If we believe Rita was there, the purpose is among other things to explain why Dumbledore knew so much about what happened at GH, right? But that doesn't make sense, in my opinion. When Dumbledore joined McGonagall at the Dursleys' house, McG said that the Potters were rumoured to be dead. If she had read it in the paper, then how could Dumbledore confirm it? Did he have another source than the paper? That makes the theory less useful, if you ask me. If McG didn't have the assumption from the Daily Prophet, then was Dumbledore's answer based on what he had read in the paper? Did Dumbledore trust the Daily Prophet at that time? Concerning something so serious?

Dumbledore did confirm that the Potters were dead. This indicates that he had a different source of information than McG had. I don't think the Daily Prophet was that source. And I don't see why Rita would tell Dumbledore personally either. Rita being at GH explains why everyone knew about what happened there so quickly, but it doesn't explain Dumbledore's extensive knowledge of the details of what happened.

By the way: I know some people think Dumbledore didn't need any extra information; that he understood what must have happened by looking at the consequences. But that just doesn't convince me. I think he must have had information from an eyewitness that at least saw the AK backfire. That's my opinion.
I don't necessarily doubt there was someone else there, other than Rita. I think DD possibly had another, more personal source of info than Rita. But all Rita has ever done is spread rumors, with the exception of when Hermione had her write for the Quibbler and had threats hanging over her head. It would be perfectly within reason for McG to trust no one's word but DD's, and therefore view the paper as nothing but a rumor, hoping that the Potters might still be alive. I personally have always liked the idea of Dobby being there. But I cannot accept a theory that has DD there and not telling Harry; it's too out of character for him. But I think DD did go back, after Hagrid had already picked up Harry and he'd sorted out some other stuff, to investigate what happened at GH, and it's possible he confirmed things like the death of the Potters and such. There is a whole day there in which he could have done that. But I see no reason to discount Rita on that account. She still fits in my opinion.

And I don't see Binns leaving the castle. I'm not sure what he does in his "free" time, but I doubt it has much to do with adventure, danger, or the Order.


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George's fingers groped for the side of his head.
"Saintlike," he murmured.
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"Saintlike," repeated George, opening his eyes and looking up at his brother. "You see...I'm holy. Holey, Fred, geddit?"


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  #56  
Old June 29th, 2007, 12:19 am
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

Quote:
Originally Posted by crookshanksfan View Post
Dumbledore did confirm that the Potters were dead. This indicates that he had a different source of information than McG had. I don't think the Daily Prophet was that source. And I don't see why Rita would tell Dumbledore personally either. Rita being at GH explains why everyone knew about what happened there so quickly, but it doesn't explain Dumbledore's extensive knowledge of the details of what happened.
I completely agree. Rita is motivated by getting the scoop on stories and the fame it brings. She has no reason to tell Dumbledore and I doubt that he would consider her a reliable source of such important information. I do believe that she is the source of the rumors that spread throughout the wizarding world.

The problem is most wizards, even very capable wizards, would not recognize the ancient magic that Lily's sacrifice invoked. Heck, Voldemort did not realize what happened until later and he knew about the horcruxes. An eyewitness who saw the entire encounter would walk away and not know what happened. But Dumbledore got it..... he understood exactly what happened....the hows, whys and all the implications. And he knew it relatively soon after the fact. Remember McGonagall was looking for him to confirm the stories but he seemed to be missing. Sure, he may have spoken to witnesses or interviewed portraits, ghosts, Dobby, Rita etc. but it is crucial for Harry and the future of the entire wizard community to know if Voldemort is truly dead.

The only explanation that makes complete sense is for Dumbledore to time travel to Godric's Hollow and witness the events himself. He can not interfere with the outcome, but he can learn everything he needs to know. He is able to enhance Lily's sacrifice at Privet Drive to protect Harry because he knows that Voldemort gave her the opportunity to live, but she refused. That set in motion the magic that protected Harry the moment the AK hit him and reduced Voldemort to vapor. Dumbledore knew that Voldemort was not truly dead which is why he went to such great lengths to protect Harry until he came of age. His conclusions were all correct and based on fact not conjecture. I doubt that he would rely on others for such critical information.


  #57  
Old June 29th, 2007, 12:40 am
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

Dumbledore seems to like Rita, and that could be because she was his imformant about the potters.
Harry Potter GoF American PaperBack pg 306-307
Quote:
"Dumbledore!" cried Rita Skeeter, with every appearance of delight-- but Harry noticed that her quill and the parchment had suddenly vanished from the box of Magical Mess Remover, and Rita's clawed fingers were hastily snapping shut the clasp of her crocodile-skin bag. "How are you?" she said, standing up and holding out one of her large, mannish hands to Dumbledore. "I hope you saw my piece over the summer about the International Confederation of Wizards' Conference?"
"Enchantingly nasty," said Dumbledore, his eyes twinkling. "I particularly enjoyed your description of me as an obsolete dingbat."
Rita Skeeter didn't look remotely abashed.
"I was just making the point that some of you ideas are a little old-fashioned, Dumbledore, and that many wizards in the street---"
"I will be delighted to hear the reasoning behind the rudeness, Rita," said Dumbledore, with a courtious bow ans a smile, "bgut I'm afraid we will have to discuss the matter later. The Weighing of the Wands is aobut to start, and it cannot take place if one of our champions is hidden in a broom cupboard."


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  #58  
Old June 29th, 2007, 12:51 am
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady_yaks_alot View Post
Dumbledore seems to like Rita, and that could be because she was his imformant about the potters.
Harry Potter GoF American PaperBack pg 306-307
Oh, I don't know that I'd say he likes her necessarily. I definitely think he's amused by her and her tearing people apart, but I don't know that the twinkle is necessarily so much liking her as it is being amused by her.


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"How do you feel, Georgie?" whispered Mrs. Weasley.
George's fingers groped for the side of his head.
"Saintlike," he murmured.
"What's wrong with him?" croaked Fred, looking terrified. "Is his mind affected?"
"Saintlike," repeated George, opening his eyes and looking up at his brother. "You see...I'm holy. Holey, Fred, geddit?"


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  #59  
Old June 29th, 2007, 12:56 am
Minerva_RDM  Undisclosed.gif Minerva_RDM is offline
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

Quote:
Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge View Post
I don't know why JKR would have Flitwick say, "Even if You-Know-Who had his nosed pressed up against the sittingroom window..." if the FC was on the house. I think the Potters were the object of the charm, not the house. Harry couldn't see #12 until he was told the secret. If Voldemort could press his nose to the window, that shows the house itself wasn't what was protected.

I agree the Wizarding World (and us) having so much detail of that night shows there was a witness. But if it was a portrait reporting to Dumbledore, how do you explain the rest of the world knowing? I can't accept that Dumbledore went and told everyone.

Dumbledore may not have told everyone but that does not prohibit the portraits from talking. They do like to blab alot.


  #60  
Old June 29th, 2007, 2:34 am
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Re: Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died

Minerva_RDM, I agree the portraits blab a lot, and can move around.. I just don't think that word could spread as fast as it did without it coming from a major, public source. I just like the Rita theory more, because my mind went through its the processes to get to it.

Lady_yaks_alot, I don't think I've ever seen Dumbledore be rude to anyone... why start with Rita?

mugglemom22, agreed a Timeturner would fix all of the kinks we have, I just can't see it. I thought JKR had said it was out?

PenguinsRule, Dobby was the Malfoy's house elf. How do you get to a spot where he'd work for Dumbledore? And when Harry sees Dobby for the first time:
Quote:
"Harry Potter!" said the creature in a high-pitched voice Harry was sure would carry down the stairs. "So long has Dobby wanted to meet you, sir ... Such an honor it is . . . ."
Sure he could mean he hadn't properly met him at GH, but really?

NeilSquib68, I'd think Binns would be at Hogwarts for the feast- but another ghost would work just as well. You're right about not being seen or heard, and they also wouldn't be able to join the fight.



Last edited by IchLiebeGeorge; June 29th, 2007 at 2:39 am.
 
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