Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died?

[chemJohn]

Crookshanks fan...
WOW....what an AWESOME point about Rita and the Longbottoms.
EXCELLENT connection.
Phenomenal
Brilliant
splendid

All the more reason that she'd conceal she was there...
WOW....incredible point

Icheleib...I agree
that's why I think a person or elf had to be there...either Rita, Time traveling Dumbledore, Dobby (or some other elf)...they're the only ones who could give Harry a viewable memory....

And Crookshanks just to clarify more... Ithink the wizarding world and Dumbledore had different sources. I think how Dumbledore knew and how everyone else found out are two different mechanisms...Obvoiusly, even Minerva wasn't privy to the knowledge that Dumbledore acquired. she found out like everyone else...then went to him to confirm and only caught up with him that night after he was done investigating and preparing.

[IchLiebeGeorge]

I agree with you, how Albus knew is very important. I've just wondered since day one how the public knew all they did so fast, as well.

I just think we'll get a full account of what happened and a witness is how we'll get that. I think my main thoughts are we need to see why Lily was offered her life, the exact sequence, and I'm sure there is something more that happened there that we have no clue about yet. How else are we supposed to see it?

I don't see how Rita would know to bring up the Longbottoms?

[crookshanksfan]

Originally Posted by chemJohn

Crookshanks fan...
WOW....what an AWESOME point about Rita and the Longbottoms.
EXCELLENT connection.
Phenomenal
Brilliant
splendid

All the more reason that she'd conceal she was there...
WOW....incredible point

Oh, stop it!

Originally Posted by chemJohn

Icheleib...I agree
that's why I think a person or elf had to be there...either Rita, Time traveling Dumbledore, Dobby (or some other elf)...they're the only ones who could give Harry a viewable memory....

And Crookshanks just to clarify more... Ithink the wizarding world and Dumbledore had different sources. I think how Dumbledore knew and how everyone else found out are two different mechanisms...Obvoiusly, even Minerva wasn't privy to the knowledge that Dumbledore acquired. she found out like everyone else...then went to him to confirm and only caught up with him that night after he was done investigating and preparing.

That's another thing I'd like to know: what was Dumbledore doing? Why couldn't he fetch Harry himself? But that's not really an issue for this thread, unless he was at GH all the time (from the point when the AK backfired, to be precise).

Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge

I agree with you, how Albus knew is very important. I've just wondered since day one how the public knew all they did so fast, as well.

I just think we'll get a full account of what happened and a witness is how we'll get that. I think my main thoughts are we need to see why Lily was offered her life, the exact sequence, and I'm sure there is something more that happened there that we have no clue about yet. How else are we supposed to see it?

I don't see how Rita would know to bring up the Longbottoms?

It's not that she would know, I was thinking that it just happened to be the first name to come into her head. Or that she, as she probably managed to overhear quite a lot of what Peter said and heard himself, knew that Neville was a potential target as well. And so she hinted that that's where she got the information, because she didn't want to say that she was present herself. But as I said, it's a long shot. (I seem to have used that particular expression several times today...)

[IchLiebeGeorge]

Originally Posted by crookshanksfan

That's another thing I'd like to know: what was Dumbledore doing? Why couldn't he fetch Harry himself? But that's not really an issue for this thread, unless he was at GH all the time (from the point when the AK backfired, to be precise).

I think you and every other one of us would like to know that. Pretty soon!

[PeNgUiNsRuLe]

I'd like to add that I think there may be some other thing we don't know about and will find out if we see the memory. Also, I think that if Rita told how much she knew, she might wind up in some trouble. She may be THE Rita Skeeter, with her avid readers now, but she can't be that old. I'd think she was relatively new to the field at this point, and this may have been one of her defining moments. But if she gave away how much she knew and that she was an eye witness or something, surely DD and McG and the others would become concerned. DD did know there was an FC and she shouldn't have been in on the secret or able to know these things without there being something she wasn't telling. That would bring a lot of awkward questions, and she'd probably wind up divulging the secret that she's an unregistered Animagus. She couldn't give away too much, even in that article. But I do like the idea that she would bring the Longbottoms into the matter. I think she'd just bring them up off-handedly, ya know? The DEs questioning her and threatening her and she might say something like, well, I have no idea where your Dark Lord went, but I hear they've got some information at the Ministry...the Aurors you know; yeah, I think I heard they had found something...Maybe you should check with that Longbottom fellow, head over at the Auror's offices you, know. He might have something to tell you... It would be something she'd do, just trying to talk her way out of a tough situation. But I do think seeing exactly what happened that night will be of importance, to see who was there, exactly what went down, and the exact time frame. Also, didn't, a very long time ago, Jo mention something in response to a question she was asked, that it was not so much the shape of Harry's scar, but its location that was important? I don't remember exactly, but I think it would be of importance to see him getting it, just to see exactly what happened. And who knows? Maybe there was something else that went down that we don't yet know about. Oh, well. I'm off to look for that quote...

[snuka]

Originally Posted by crookshanksfan

Lupin didn't know Peter was the secret keeper. So he can't have seen him leave... Can he have been there from the start without knowing who the SK really was?

Why would he see Peter leave ? If he was walking around GH all he would see would be Pettigrew and LV. I think in the Order - those in the know anyway - everyone assumed Sirius was the SK. That is why DD gave evidence against Sirius, that is why Lupin suspected him all those years.

ChemJohn: true, but would they be so quick to alert DD before the house went boom ?
I think Ministry - seeing as also how fast they were on the street after the Sirius/Pettigrew showdown - was very happy to tout the news, once DD informed them. I don't see Rita getting the info before everyone else, least of all DD (who likely was the first person to be alerted) who certainly wouldn't let that story out on her.

[whitherwings]

Yikes! Out of town away from the computer for a day and i feel like ive missed everything.

Great stuff though! The longbottoms idea is brilliant kudos to crookshanks

But to business, I think we will definitely see a memory in DH of the exact goings on of GH that night. I dont know any other way all these ends could be tied together.

Snuka: trying to clarify... are u saying that DD informed the Ministry?

And if LUpin was there, would he see Peter running away? or would he be in Animagus form? And if he saw Vapormort, would he know what it was?

And as much as im not a fan of DD timetravelling back it really does answer all the questions and ties it all together so that is also a logical explanation.

[IchLiebeGeorge]

http://www.jkrowling.net/textonly/en...view.cfm?id=25

The Lestranges were sent after Neville to kill him
No, they weren’t, they were very definitely sent after Neville’s parents. I can’t say too much about this because it touches too closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it, but the Lestranges were not in on the secret.

It sounds, to me, like Bella and Co. were deliberately sent to the Longbottoms by someone who would know Voldemort had it in for them- maybe not in on the Prophecy, but knew of Voldemort's plan. I can't grasp how Rita would have any idea of that.

And I agree with Snuka that Lupin wouldn't have blamed Sirius all those years had he known Peter was there the night of the attack.

ETA: I guess I don't agree with Snuka- I thought she was saying Lupin couldn't be there.

[PeNgUiNsRuLe]

Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge

And I agree with Snuka that Lupin wouldn't have blamed Sirius all those years had he known Peter was there the night of the attack.

Exactly. We have too much canon going against Lupin being there that night.

[snuka]

[quote=whitherwings;4600923]

Snuka: trying to clarify... are u saying that DD informed the Ministry?

And if LUpin was there, would he see Peter running away? or would he be in Animagus form? And if he saw Vapormort, would he know what it was?

[quote]

That is my hunch, yes. DD alerted the Ministry which then spread the news in the wizard world.

Here's what I think: Lupin is patrolling GH, when he sees two wizards apparating, cloaked figures, with their back at him (for all we know Pettigrew is in his "rat" shape). He waits to see what will happen, and realizes what is going on when the AKs start flying around. Everything happens so quickly - and he is told to report back to DD - he can't intervene (lest he gets himself killed by LV). The house crumbles, he checks and sees two (three? was there a LV body?) bodies, two wands, and a baby with a scar and Apparates to Hogwarts gate and talks to DD. DD in turn sends him back to GH, in case any DE's come to finish the job. He then waits and leaves the house when Hagrid arrives.

So, it is possible that Lupin may have been there and still think Sirius was the SK. (I wouldn't be surprised if he knew that since Marauders were that close)

[IchLiebeGeorge]

Originally Posted by snuka

Here's what I think: Lupin is patrolling GH, when he sees two wizards apparating, cloaked figures, with their back at him (for all we know Pettigrew is in his "rat" shape). He waits to see what will happen, and realizes what is going on when the AKs start flying around. Everything happens so quickly - and he is told to report back to DD - he can't intervene (lest he gets himself killed by LV). The house crumbles, he checks and sees two (three? was there a LV body?) bodies, two wands, and a baby with a scar and Apparates to Hogwarts gate and talks to DD. DD in turn sends him back to GH, in case any DE's come to finish the job. He then waits and leaves the house when Hagrid arrives.

So, it is possible that Lupin may have been there and still think Sirius was the SK. (I wouldn't be surprised if he knew that since Marauders were that close)

I think Lupin would have died fighting trying to save the Potters. And I don't understand what you mean by the last bolded statement. If he 'knew' Sirius was the Secret Keeper, he wouldn't have been in on the secret, as Peter was the SK. In the end, they weren't terribly close, because Lupin was suspected as the spy.

[whitherwings]

Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge

I think Lupin would have died fighting trying to save the Potters.

I agree. The loyalty and their friendship would mean too much, even if there were suspicions of a traitor.

[PeNgUiNsRuLe]

Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge

I think Lupin would have died fighting trying to save the Potters.

Exactly. We see that demonstrated in PoA with Sirius. Peter was the only traitor in the group; the other three were like blood brothers, and Sirius says it all when he says, "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!...DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!" (PoA, "The Servant of Lord Voldemort", p375, US Paperback). I think the three felt very strongly about this; they'd give their lives for each other. And it's kind of the same way the trio is; they would die before giving up each other. Even if the rest of the theory is true (which, I don't see Voldy bringing Peter and him not being in human form, if just to show the Potters face-to-face who sold them out), even if for some reason Lupin was there as a guard and was not in on the secret, I don't see him staying uninvolved. The second he was able to get to the house, he would have been there fighting. He would have taken Harry before Hagrid got there, (which, in fact, if he was there, why didn't DD just have him take Harry to safety?) and hidden him, and then tried to go after Peter or somebody. Lupin may be quiet and reserved at times, but we've seen before how he is no weakling; he'd fight to the death, just like James and Sirius.

[snuka]

Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge

I think Lupin would have died fighting trying to save the Potters. And I don't understand what you mean by the last bolded statement. If he 'knew' Sirius was the Secret Keeper, he wouldn't have been in on the secret, as Peter was the SK. In the end, they weren't terribly close, because Lupin was suspected as the spy.

What if he - or whoever else was at GH - was stupefied, be it by LV or by Lilly ? (like Harry on the Tower when Snape killed DD) That would explain why someone might have seen this going on, and not interfere.

Of course, the Sirius-Peter SK switch was done at the last minute and no one knew, including Lupin. There may have been some tension between James, Sirius and Lupin after their time at Hogwarts but I think Lilly was still friends with Lupin, as the movie PoA seems to hint.

I keep thinking about that JKR comment on the first film, not to show James at GH.

[crookshanksfan]

Originally Posted by snuka

Why would he see Peter leave ? If he was walking around GH all he would see would be Pettigrew and LV. I think in the Order - those in the know anyway - everyone assumed Sirius was the SK. That is why DD gave evidence against Sirius, that is why Lupin suspected him all those years.

I agree, I didn't suggest that Lupin saw Peter and still thought Sirius was the SK. I was referring to what you wrote here, more specifically the part I've rendered in boldface (but I guess I misinterpreted you):

Originally Posted by snuka

Could be haunted by guilt - and doesn't share with Harry - as he watched helplessly (Fidelius charm in place so he can't see the house and/or the Potters until it's too late - LV and Pettigrew probably Apparated right in front of the house) and all he saw and heard were 2 (remember Priori incantantem in GoF scene) loud blasts, and Pettigrew dissapearing in a panic-ky fashion. So immediately he looks at the scene (I assume Fidelius charm wasn't in effect once James and Lilly died), sends a message to DD, and patrols the premises until Hagrid arrives there.

It seemed to me that you suggested that Lupin saw Peter disappearing, but I guess that's not exactly what you meant. In that case he must have been in his rat form, and Lupin had no idea what he actually saw.

Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge

It sounds, to me, like Bella and Co. were deliberately sent to the Longbottoms by someone who would know Voldemort had it in for them- maybe not in on the Prophecy, but knew of Voldemort's plan. I can't grasp how Rita would have any idea of that.

I know about that quote from JKR, and I find it very interesting, so what I was thinking was really that Lucius, for example, questioned Rita regarding her knowledge of GH. Rita comes up with the name Longbottom (because they were aurors, because she knew that they were somehow involved, or for some other reason) and then Lucius sends the Lestranges and Crouch Jr. after the Longbottoms based on the hint he received from Rita. But this was only ever a random thought, I had no idea it would catch on this way...

[snuka]

Yes, that's what I meant: either Lupin saw the rat-shape Pettigrew (or should I say, he only really saw LV as the rat was too small) or he saw LV and another cloaked, hooded person and just assumed it was Sirius.

[Rhea7]

I think there are people who came right after the death after hearing about it. Dumbledore and Hagrid, for example, must've been there within minutes, and I would expect that Voldemort left as soon as Dumbledore came. Dumbledore would have to have gotten the story somehow, and either it was from someone who was there in the wizarding world or the muggle world. Getting the story from a muggle is porbably what happened and he filled in the magical bits on his own. But I do not beleive that there were any other witches or wizards in the area. Why would there have to be? Why would the Potter's need more protection than the most loyal Secret Keeper they could find?

[PeNgUiNsRuLe]

Originally Posted by Rhea7

Why would the Potter's need more protection than the most loyal Secret Keeper they could find?

Ah, or so they thought. But as it turned out, he sold them out, didn't he? And nobody else knew it was him; ironically the most loyal one they could find talked them in to using the traitor. And DD wasn't convinced of such loyalty anyway, because he wanted them to use him as SK. At any rate, I don't think there needs to have been a witness for DD, because I think he could tell by the magical traces left exactly what happened. But somebody had to have alerted him to the break in and murder, because he had to send Hagrid and (later, I think) investigate himself. Also, somebody had to blab the news fast enough for the entire wizarding world to know by morning. Enter Rita Skeeter and her avid readers. (Shameless plugging, I know )

[Sacred_Memories]

To be honest, there are more questions that I need to know...

IF there was someone on the good side who was watching the Potters, why didn't he help James and Lily out and how could that person watch them get killed?

HOW did their house explode into ruins?

I think the two best suspects are either Dumbledore OR Bellatrix...But there could be someone else. Possibly Frank or Alice Longbottom or Rita Skeeter. JK Rowling did confirm that Rita will be appearing in Deathly Hallows.

[IchLiebeGeorge]

I think if Dumbledore was there, he would have done something to help the Potters- the night would have ended differently. And why would Harry have been picked up by Hagrid if he was there already?

As to Bella being there, with her taunting Neville about torturing his parents in the MoM tells me she would have said something to Harry. And Voldemort thinks he alone knows about his Horcruxes, I'd think if he was planning on using Harry's death for one, he'd go to Godric's Hollow alone. I realize we don't know the procedure of making one, but I think Bellatrix would have opened her mouth about being there in the times we've seen her.

The house exploding into ruins: I think it was just from the force of the AK backfiring, with Lily's sacrifice being a shield.