Was anyone other than Pettigrew or Snape at Godric's Hollow when the Potters died?

[PeNgUiNsRuLe]

Originally Posted by Sacred_Memories

I think the two best suspects are either Dumbledore OR Bellatrix...But there could be someone else. Possibly Frank or Alice Longbottom or Rita Skeeter. JK Rowling did confirm that Rita will be appearing in Deathly Hallows.

To add, any of those people, with the exception of Rita, needed to be in on the secret. It would be possibly Bella was, but she doesn't like Wormtail, so I doubt she'd go anywhere with him, and she would be unable to keep herself from bragging, as IchLiebeGeorge said. But any Order member like the Longbottoms or DD (especially DD) has to have an explanation of why they knew about the SK change when best friend Lupin didn't even know (and for DD why he then sent an innocent man to Azkaban), why they didn't help out with the fight and try to give the Potters a fourth defiance against Voldy that night, and why they didn't take Harry to safety quicker or stay there until Hagrid got there (thus Hagrid should have seen them). It just doesn't fit for any witch/wizard to be there except Rita, in beetle form.

[Numenorian]

I agree. The killing curse is very powerfull. If it backfired at the love shield it must have given some firework

A little of subject but what intruigs me more is how Harry survived when the house collapsed. Hagrid says he found him amongst the ruins.

[PeNgUiNsRuLe]

Originally Posted by Numenorian

A little of subject but what intruigs me more is how Harry survived when the house collapsed. Hagrid says he found him amongst the ruins.

You know it's funny, but the fact that two people use the word ruins seems to cause a lot of people to think the whole house is down and it's all just debris. But that's not necessarily the case. It never says anything about the entire house coming down on itself or anything. In all actuality, if Harry is going back, it means there's probably going to be a house to go back to. I think what they meant by "the house in ruins" was that it was terrible inside. Upturned, unstuffed furniture, chairs missing legs, windows busted, holes in walls, broken pictures, the crib perhaps broken or upturned, but I don't think it meant much more than that. To me, that's a house in ruins; it doesn't have to be all Greek style ruins, with a couple of pillars left but the rest in shambles. I think there needed to be a house left for some minor protection or DD wouldn't have left Harry for any amount of time. I also think there needed to be a house, because I think that's the reason both Hagrid and Sirius saw both the bodies; I think James was toward the front, and Lily's was further back in the same room as Harry. I don't think DD would have left Harry any amount of time in a pile of splinters; that's too dangerous. I also think the house was cleaned up some by a couple of Order members and/or friends after the ordeal. And that, I think, is the house Harry will be walking into shortly after Bill and Fleur's wedding. But I don't think the house is completely destroyed, not even standing anymore.

[IchLiebeGeorge]

To me, Rita is the only character in the entirety of the series that could be there, not help, and get the word to the public. I see everyone else having multiple reasons for not being there.

To add to PenguinsRule's explaination of the house, I agree about the condition of the inside, Hagrid said the house was 'almost destroyed', so it is not in bits and pieces.

[chemJohn]

I entirely agree that the house was not rubble. Love protection or not, Harry doesn't survive that.
And I fully agree with the whole of what has been said about Rita.
ONLY she fits the bill so far for:
1-being there and not helping
2-being able to make the story that was spread (Is it weird to anyone else that we never know just WHAT the wizarding world heard...only what umbledore Learned throughout the books)
3-Being able to spread the story as fast as it spread.
4-can do so without being found out.
5-Would spread it.

5 is I think, perhaps the most important one.
And is why I think the wizarding world and Dumbledore have 2 different sources. Dumbleore, and his source would not spread the word like that.

[PeNgUiNsRuLe]

Originally Posted by chemJohn

And is why I think the wizarding world and Dumbledore have 2 different sources. Dumbleore, and his source would not spread the word like that.

[[I vote Dobby for source #2...]]



Couldn't resist.

[chemJohn]

HMMMMM....
as much as I like the idea of it being Dobby, Penguins...why did papa Malfoy tolerate his elf being such a blabber mouth?

bwaahaaahaaa

[PeNgUiNsRuLe]

Originally Posted by chemJohn

as much as I like the idea of it being Dobby, Penguins...why did papa Malfoy tolerate his elf being such a blabber mouth?

Wait, I'm a little confused as to what you're asking. Malfoy didn't know Dobby was out (he obviously doesn't keep that close an eye on him, since he got out in CoS), which is supposed to mirror Sirius not realizing Kreacher got out. Dobby would only be able to give little bits of information, like Kreacher; it's more like they got Dobby in on the plan to help, which again is similar to what the Malfoys did with Kreacher. They devised a plan and got the house elf to help. And Dobby does an awful lot in CoS he's not supposed to do; he just justifies it by hurting himself later. It seems he has experience in this department.

[chemJohn]

knew you'd come through, Penguins.
Do we know if the Potters had a house elf? It seems to me James' family would have...Perhaps from him/her the info got out? Or perhaps it was Dobby's *gasp* parent or sibling????

oooh that'd be cool

[crookshanksfan]

Just to show that other witnesses than Rita are possible:

- Harry watched Dumbledore die without doing anything. It is possible that somebody witnessed some or all of what happened at GH without being able to intervene. So someone who wanted to help, but couldn't, may have been present.
- We have seen the secret keeper passing the secret on by means of a note. Although JKR (reference anyone?) have said that Peter needed to tell people the secret directly, it can be argued exactly what 'directly' means. A note or Peter polyjuiced to look like Sirius may be interpreted as a direct means of communication.

Personally, I think it more likely that an Order member witnessed (some of) what happened than a DE. If Dumbledore was right and Voldemort intended to make another horcrux from the murders at GH, then he would bring as few people as possible. But an Order spy isn't unlikely, whether that person was told the secret or not. I think an Order member not able to enter the house (he/she didn't know the secret) but alerting Dumbledore/the Order is the most likely alternative. Or another person/creature loyal to the Order.

In my opinion, an important question to ask, is: if someone else was present at GH, why have we not been told so? Is this a coincidence, is their presence there a total secret, or is it a secret that has been shielded from Harry in particular? Or, if it was an Order spy for example, didn't they witness anything of importance anyway?

I just wanted to post this to make room for more theories, because although opinion concerning my two first points are divided, the presence of, for example, an Order member in the house during the killings is theoretically possible, in my opinion. So if anybody has a theory involving such a scenario, please share it! It will be analyzed to pieces, of course, but we'll have some fun in the meantime, right?

[PeNgUiNsRuLe]

Originally Posted by chemJohn

knew you'd come through, Penguins.
Do we know if the Potters had a house elf? It seems to me James' family would have...Perhaps from him/her the info got out? Or perhaps it was Dobby's *gasp* parent or sibling????

oooh that'd be cool

See I'd contemplated the Potters having an elf before, way back when I first heard the theory. But it would be different then, because I don't see their house elf having an order binding them from fighting to protect its masters. Dobby, I could see with a direct order not to get involved from the Malfoys or something ("Don't dare defy the Dark Lord ever!!" or something insane like that). But a Potter elf would have no such order, I'd think, and in fact would more likely be bound to protect the Potters. That's the reason I dismissed the idea originally. But Dobby's relative would be interesting (I assume you're talking about with the Malfoys, not the Potters). It's been theorized before that Dobby was there, visiting a friend elf that the Potters owned, but I find that one unlikely. He wouldn't know the secret, and he'd have been a witness that Voldy would likely have wanted dead. Besides, when would the Malfoys ever be likely to give their elf a day off for visiting friends?

[chemJohn]

Well, Penguins, we're obviously back to normal cus you and I are disagreeing again .

Yes, I agree that any Potter house elf would do whatever it could to defend the Potters. We don't know all the details that night...we don't know that didn't happen.
I also could see Dobby sneaking out to visit a friend/relative. He snuck out to directly disobey the Malfoys and warn Harry....he does whatever he wants, then punishes himself.
Now...as for Dobby and the FC...
If the Elfs can apparate at Hogwarts....I don't think it's a leap to say they can get around FC.


What did you mean that you assumed I was meaning with the Malfoys??

[PeNgUiNsRuLe]

Originally Posted by chemJohn

What did you mean that you assumed I was meaning with the Malfoys??

I mean, when you're talking about Dobby having family members involved; I assumed you meant that the family members would have also worked for the Malfoys, not the Potters. I think Kreacher's from a long line of Black house elves; I think it would be the same with Dobby. He'd be born into service with the Malfoys, which might explain a little of his lack of respect and loyalty to them. That, and he's just an unusual house elf. I suppose the rest you said is possible; I just think it's more likely he was posted outside as an unknown sentry by DD, given orders to alert him first. That way he doesn't have to disobey more orders from the Malfoys then necessary.

[IchLiebeGeorge]

ChemJohn, I completely agree with your list. I don't see Dumbledore ever spreading the word, or allowing his source to do so.

PenguinsRule, Kreacher getting out and visiting Narcissa and Bella is understandable because he has a connection to the Black family. I haven't seen any connection between Dobby and the Potters.

Crookshanksfan, I don't debate (and would like it) it being possible an Order member was there and not being able to help- that could be Dumbledore's source- but how did word get out to everyone else? I see the lack of information on GH in the books as JKR saving it for the end. The big reveal, grand finale (that was actually the beginning), you know?

[PeNgUiNsRuLe]

Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge

PenguinsRule, Kreacher getting out and visiting Narcissa and Bella is understandable because he has a connection to the Black family. I haven't seen any connection between Dobby and the Potters.

That wasn't my theory. My theory has Dobby going to Sirius, a blood relative of Narcissa, and Sirius informing DD, who Dobby wants to help (just as Narcissa and Bella informed Voldy), and DD having Dobby put as a sentry at the Potters, because he wanted James unaware (just as Harry had to be kept unaware of being watched). There's a separate theory that Dobby was visiting a house elf of the Potters when Voldy showed up, but I'm not so much a fan of that one. All I said was that Dobby went to the next of kin that he felt was a good guy and worthy of his service, Sirius.

[troryfan]

i doubt there were many people there, simply because it was such a dangerous time.
how the word got out, i am not entirely sure.

Jo

[whitherwings]

I think its been confirmed somewhere that the ruins were caused by the force of the AK.

IchLieb: I personally do not think Voldemort was out to make horcruxes that night, so on that respect it is possible Bella was there. And she never did taunt Harry about his parents. That is a good point.

Lexicon timeline has her arrest after the events at GH so technically it is possible for her to have been there, but i find it unlikely IMO.

And is it possible that DD went back in time, but only to observe? Maybe he didn't want to change the events, just learn exactly what happened. Perhaps that is why he knows so much about the magic his mother placed upon Harry that night. I think its unlikely, but possible.

[PeNgUiNsRuLe]

Originally Posted by whitherwings

I think its been confirmed somewhere that the ruins were caused by the force of the AK.

Nobody's denying that, just how much damage there actually was.

Originally Posted by whitherwings

IchLieb: I personally do not think Voldemort was out to make horcruxes that night, so on that respect it is possible Bella was there.

How are you getting that? That's directly against canon.

[dweaselqueen]

originally posted by witherwings
I personally do not think Voldemort was out to make horcruxes that night, so on that respect it is possible Bella was there

I don't think Bella was there. In Bella's trial in GoF, Crouch says that Bella and the others tortured Frank Longbottom because they thought he had information about Voldemort's whereabouts. If Bella had been there, she would've known what had happened, and probably tried to follow Voldemort. She wouldn't have needed Frank's information.

In fact, that's why I am in the camp that thinks Frank was there that night. Why else would Bella and her gang of Death Eaters think Frank had the information they needed? Would they have tortured any auror to insanity, or did they know Frank had more information because he was there that night?

originally posted by chemJohn
And I fully agree with the whole of what has been said about Rita.
ONLY she fits the bill so far for:
1-being there and not helping
2-being able to make the story that was spread (Is it weird to anyone else that we never know just WHAT the wizarding world heard...only what umbledore Learned throughout the books)
3-Being able to spread the story as fast as it spread.
4-can do so without being found out.
5-Would spread it.

But how would Rita get there? Are you suggesting Wormtail would have told Rita where the Potters were hiding? It doesn't seem likely to me that Rita would be told where the Potters are hiding because the purpose of using the Fidelius Charm on Godric's Hollow was to keep the Potters alive. There wouldn't be much of a story in that.

And if they wanted a reporter there, I can't imagine Dumbledore approving of Rita being the reporter.

Unless you are suggesting that Voldemort would have brought Rita along to report the destruction of the wizarding world's last hope? But even then, I don't think Rita is a Death Eater.

[cab2311]

Originally Posted by chemJohn

I entirely agree that the house was not rubble. Love protection or not, Harry doesn't survive that.
And I fully agree with the whole of what has been said about Rita.
ONLY she fits the bill so far for:
1-being there and not helping
2-being able to make the story that was spread (Is it weird to anyone else that we never know just WHAT the wizarding world heard...only what umbledore Learned throughout the books)
3-Being able to spread the story as fast as it spread.
4-can do so without being found out.
5-Would spread it.

5 is I think, perhaps the most important one.
And is why I think the wizarding world and Dumbledore have 2 different sources. Dumbleore, and his source would not spread the word like that.

We actually do know what the news was. We know from McGonagall in the first chapter of the first book. I think we would have a much more dramatic version and worthy tale of what went on if it was Rita to witness it.