Westboro Baptist Church

[TheLastHorcrux]

I created this thread to discuss the Westboro Baptist Church (WBC), arguably the most controversial religious institution in the United States.

Westboro Baptist is best known for their extremely outspoken approach on the issue of homosexuality and for their picketing of high profile funerals, particularly those of US military personnel killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are of the opinion that 9/11 and other tragic events are God's punishment of the United States for tolerating homosexuals. In their protests, they use large signs which often display extremely graphic text, mostly condemning homosexuality. Violence has erupted on several occasions between WBC protesters and angry citizens.

Please note that this thread is not for the discussion of homosexuality and it's moral implications (or lack thereof); there is another thread on DoMC which is dedicated to that. Please also review the Department of International Magical Cooperation rules. I don't want anybody getting banned because of their reply.

1. Are Westboro's protests expressions of religion or are they hate speech?

2. Do you believe that WBC's protests are protected by the 1st Ammendment's guarantee of free speech, or should laws be passed prohibiting the protesting of certain events (such as funerals)?

3. Do you think the controversy surrounding WBC's tactics strengthens or weakens their message?

Those questions are by no means all-inclusive of what you can discuss, they are just meant to give you ideas.

[Rae]

I'm from Kansas, so yes, I'm familiar with the WBC. I despise them and I think that all the publicity only makes them look silly. Quite frankly, when I hear about them from other people, it's always in the context that they're a joke. Technically they have a right to their opinions, but I think that picketing at a funeral crosses some lines because the families of the dead soldiers can claim emotional distress. It's hard to say if aggressively picketing at funerals and saying cruel things about the dead soldiers counts as a hate crime--this is Kansas, after all..and Kansas has little if any hate crime laws. BUt at the least, what they say and do counts as hate speech.

WHat makes me laugh the most is that there is a biker group that finds out where the WBC is protesting, and goes there for the sole purpose of forming a barrier between the protestors and the grieving families. They rock!

[NarcissaWeasley]

Wow I'd never heard of the WBC before-to be honest,I find it disgusting that protesters would choose a funeral to air such controversial (and possibly) insulting views.
The level to which some people can sink astounds me sometimes.They're perfectly entitled to their opinions but to distress grieving families who are putting their loved ones to rest is the height of disrespect and insensitivity.

[thorny]

Originally Posted by TheLastHorcrux

1. Are Westboro's protests expressions of religion or are they hate speech?

2. Do you believe that WBC's protests are protected by the 1st Ammendment's guarantee of free speech, or should laws be passed prohibiting the protesting of certain events (such as funerals)?

3. Do you think the controversy surrounding WBC's tactics strengthens or weakens their message?

1. I believe the latter. I saw a documentary on them not so long ago, and Fred Phelps came across as generally very arrogant, mean and hate filled. I believe religion is an excuse he's developed in his own mind for his hate. You only have to read a few of their "press releases" to see how much they are driven by hate.

2. I think they should be allowed to protest, but it is reasonable to pass laws preventing them from protesting at funerals. Funerals are private emotional events, not a public stage for protestors. Also, I suspect some of their protests could be banned under obcenity laws. If they were filmed, they definately wouldn't get a PG certificate.

3. The controvesy has probably allowed more people to hear that message, but most of these people will be so disgusted with their tactics that they will reject it.

Those who have grown up there have such a warped view on everything. On the documentary I saw recently (I believe it was called the "most hated family in America") one of Fred's daugters was yelling "Fags eat poop, that's a fact!". They're just so out of touch with the real world it's scary. But when you've been bought up in such an insular community where you're told that everyone else is going to hell, I guess it's hard to get a sense of proportion.

I think it's terribly sad that they are allowed to stand small children on the street with signs depicting anal sex and hateful slogans. One kid on the documentary didn't even understand the meaning of the signs he was holding. He was only about 7. It's practically child abuse. The protesters are frequently verbally and sometimes physically abused by angry members of the public. Putting a child in that situation just seems so wrong to me.

I hope for their sake that none of Fred Phelp's grandchildren/great grandchildren turn out gay. Coming out to yourself in a relitavely moderate Christian family is hard enough, being a Phelps and realising you're gay must be 100 times worse.

I think the world will be a better place once Fred Phelps is gone. Unfortunately, his eldest daugter seems to be nearly as bad as he is. Oh well. Maybe the hate will get "diluted out" through the generations.

[purplehawk]

Originally Posted by Rae

WHat makes me laugh the most is that there is a biker group that finds out where the WBC is protesting, and goes there for the sole purpose of forming a barrier between the protestors and the grieving families. They rock!

I don't think it's just one biker group - it's a whole nation of Harley-Davidson riders who have taken it upon themselves to keep Westboro's patrons from getting anywhere near the funeral services of fallen servicemen and women. Around here, the cycle chapter is known as the Eagles.

As for Westboro, I can only say

[Masterfroggy]

Originally Posted by purplehawk

I don't think it's just one biker group - it's a whole nation of Harley-Davidson riders who have taken it upon themselves to keep Westboro's patrons from getting anywhere near the funeral services of fallen servicemen and women. Around here, the cycle chapter is known as the Eagles.

As for Westboro, I can only say

it is less about bikers, and more about people who understand the meaning of the term respect. the PG website PG

I watched a documentary featuring the Phelps family Louis Theroux and the only thing I can honestly say is all the people in the family seem intelligent articulate, well meaning, full of the passion of a zealot. And yet their ideas are so wrong and so evil in content that, I have to say that they deserve their reputation for being the most hated family in the USA.

[Daemon_in_a_Box]

If this is the same group I'm thinking of, I believe several of the members are lawyers, and very good at dodging any laws designed to prohibit them from protesting at funerals.

These people are downright scary in their views.

[iluvhhr]

I remember these people from when someone on the forums posted one of their websites. This was two or so years ago, and I was shocked and disgusted at the level of hate they have. It's disrespectful to pull these stunts at anyone's funeral, let alone the funerals of soldiers. There are other ways to air your grievances without intruding on people's grief. I remember reading about a state legislature (was it Virginia?) who banned them from getting within a certain number of feet of the funerals, but I don't know whether the ban actually went into effect. This church is pretty much made up of the reverend's family and friends, right? And good on the motorcyclists for their actions.

[Wab]

Maybe they're right. That's the great thing about religion no one can believe you're beliefs are wrong. Their actions are wrong-headed, though.

[Nathaniel]

One word. Crazy.





You know, when I first read this (God Hates Fags, etc), I thought it was a joke... a satire... that people were taking too seriously. I mean, the words they use are ridiculous. Fags? The only real Jews are... Christians ? This looks like major satire to me.

But the sorry thing is? It's not. It's real. And all I can say is... crazy.

(The only real Jews are Christians... how? That I don't get at all... there's no logic in that... two utterly and completely different religions.)

[unconvinced]

I saw a documentary a few weeks ago, BBC I think, in which they sent a reporter to live with them. The thing that stood out most for me was the sheer arrogance of the guy in charge saying that the reporter was likely to be sacked for not asking "decent" questions.

[NarcissaWeasley]

Originally Posted by unconvinced

I saw a documentary a few weeks ago, BBC I think, in which they sent a reporter to live with them. The thing that stood out most for me was the sheer arrogance of the guy in charge saying that the reporter was likely to be sacked for not asking "decent" questions.

I saw that last night.I actually felt quite sorry for one of the eldest girls,i think her name was megan,shes in college and she's completely isolated because of who her family is.without a doubt the main victims of this 'church' are he family members who've been indoctrinated with this poison from birth and as a result are completely cut off from having a normal life.in the documentary a small boy holding a disgusting placard which he can barely read gets hit in the face by a drink thrown at him by disgruntled passers by.he doesnt even understand what they're protesting and yet his mother drags him along,exposing him to ideologies and scenarios no child should have to deal with.

[Erinys]

1. Are Westboro's protests expressions of religion or are they hate speech?
I believe that they qualify as hate speech...and expressions of their hate soaked religion. I've been to their website occasionally and I can't see any way to separate the hate speech from their religious belief. They actually seem to believe that the fundamental relationship of God to the world is one of hate and that only by believing in their way will God even tolerate your existence.

2. Do you believe that WBC's protests are protected by the 1st Ammendment's guarantee of free speech, or should laws be passed prohibiting the protesting of certain events (such as funerals)? As much as I might personally wish otherwise, they are protected by the first amendment to speak as they wish. It's extremely tacky of them to go to funerals, but they do it for the express purpose of getting all the free publicity that the family's righteous outrage provides(especially as it involves the press). The best response is probably to protect the funeral as much as possible (as the Motorcycle groups are doing) by blocking the WBC people from view and to otherwise completely ignore the WBC people.

3. Do you think the controversy surrounding WBC's tactics strengthens or weakens their message? I guess it depends. I think, from reading their website material, that the controversy is the entire point of the WBC's tactics. So, in their view, the controversy strengthens their message. However, I hope to most people on the outside of the church group, these tactics weaken their message.

The first time I saw their website, my initial reaction was that it HAD to be a parody site. Once I realized that they actually meant every word of their sickening, hate filled, hate mongering screed, it actually made me nauseous.

[Lyra Black]

They threatned to picket the funerals of those Amish girls who where shot dead in their classroom last year, but offered not to in exchange for one hour of airtime on a national ratio station. They got their airtime.

I think the media should ignore them. This would take away much of their power and they'd probably find a less offensive way to protest.

[PLIMPY]

Originally Posted by iluvhhr

I remember these people from when someone on the forums posted one of their websites. This was two or so years ago, and I was shocked and disgusted at the level of hate they have.

I remember that as well. I knew about them before, but that was the first time I had been to their website. I figured I would just look around to see if I could find what they had been doing recently. When I saw their counter of how many days Matthew Shepard had been in hell, I left the site. That was more than enough for me.

Originally Posted by Lyra Black

I think the media should ignore them. This would take away much of their power and they'd probably find a less offensive way to protest.

I don't know if I agree with this. Should we just pretend that such things don't happen, that they don't exist? I didn't see the documentary that others were talking about entitled "The Most Hated Family in America", but I did read a story about it. Perhaps the documentary speaks to this, but I question whether enough people know about the Phelps family for them to be the "most hated". While I hate the idea of their message spreading or allowing them to hurt even one more person, I feel that not letting people know that such people are out there, pretending like everyone is civil and happy and disagreeing amicably is almost worse. Maybe they do play to the cameras, but isn't it the role of the media to expose them or to at least inform us of such things? How do we fight against such hatred without even acknowledging that it exists?

[DancingMaenid]

I don't think they should be ignored because I feel that people need to realize such stuff exists in order to get past it. Otherwise, it's too easy to pretend nothing's wrong and ignore it, allowing it to go on.

However, I don't agree with giving this group attention when they attempt to bully people into giving it to them. If they're really threatening to picket at funerals if they don't get airtime, then that tells me that all they care about is forcing their view out there, and that shouldn't be supported.

[Rell]

I'm of two minds when it comes to giving these people media attention. On one hand, something that is not at all covered by media almost doesn't exist, and these people would not be getting the publicity of their message out. On the other hand, silence is almost another form of condoning their actions. It seems like a lose-lose situation, and I don't like it at all.

[Erinys]

They definitely thrive on any and all attention that people give to them. I tend to think that the media should ignore them as much as possible. We can't take away their rights to speak, but we don't have to give them an even bigger forum for their hate.

[Lyra Black]

It's one thing to have a short 2 minute news story about pickets at a funeral but it's another thing all together to interview the picketers and give them forum to air their views. I think the former is reasonable, but the latter is not. Consider this Fox news interview. As far as I'm concerned it's a completely ridiculous piece of journalism (if we can even call it that). The interviewers are completely incapable of putting forward a decent argument so the whole interview decends into name calling. To be fair, the interviewee is also incapable of a decent argument but she's not being paid a heafty sallary to do so.

The WBC pickets funerals in order to get interviewed (this was made obvious when they threatned to picket the Amish girls' funerals if they didn't get an interview). So, Fox news and all those other media organisations which have given the WBC interviews are helping them get their nasty message across. If they don't want to help the WBC they shouldn't give them interviews.

[Timekill]

I'm Swedish....and apparently I'm going to hell because I'm Swedish according to these horrible people. They have a site called something like www.godhatessweden.com and they base it on two things; a Swedish reverent was prosecuted for spreading hateful slander when he called "homosexuals a cancer growth on society" and these horrid people in Westboro claim that because he was prosecuted for "proclaiming the truth" all of Sweden shall burn in hell (the reverent wasn't actually sentenced, incredibly enough...). And the second reason they hate us is, apparently, our princess Madeleine has "the face of a harlot" (except they used a nastier word that I can't repreat here...).

After the terrible tsunami in 2004 they said they were happy so many Swedes died in the disaster and that it was God's punishment on Sweden....it made me physically ill to read that and it just shows that they completly lack any trace of humanity. They shouldn't be allowed to preach, they should be shut down and banned, free speech or no free speech, what they are doing is spreading hatred and ill will all around them and I certainly don't think that the law or constitution should protect them or others like them.

(note: about 1000 Swedes died in the tsunami, I almost lost my brother, this is not an issue I take lightly).