Why wasn't Trelawney at Dumbledore's funeral

[RiverIsis]

Originally Posted by MAGICicalMUggle

I don't think that Draco knew anything about the plan to kidnap Trelawney....Or the real reason why Voldemort ordered a gang of Death-Eaters to help him out on the task, given that Voldemort would expect for Draco to fail miserably...And be killed by Dumbledore in the process while one of the Death-Eaters grab Trelawney and leave. I believe that the real target was actually Trelawney! Voldemort knows how powerful is Dumbledore and knows that he will fight and win over any weak servant Death-Eater like Draco for example....I believe that this was all a clever rouse to distract Dumbledore while they grab Trelawney, I don't think that Voldemort would of expected that someone will actually get the chance to kill Dumbledore.

Originally Posted by CoeurDeLyon

Just because DD was the target in HBP, doesnt mean Voldy forgot about what his target was the year prior. He tried for a year (that we know of) to hear the entire prophecy. Maybe Draco didnt do anything to her, but there were other Death Eaters. How do we know that another death eater didnt abduct her? If Voldy was relying on Malfoy killing DD, or for him to fail for that matter, why would he send a gang of death eaters into Hogwarts?I think there were other plans we arent aware of...possibly to kidnap Trewlawney

I think there was an ulterior motive as well - if Voldemort wanted Draco to succeed couldn't he have just called in Snape to help out?...LV and Snape in an Unbreakable Vow?...

There just seems that there is something more with these scenes.

[CoeurDeLyon]

I completely agree with u here RiverIsis. If Voldy really wanted DD dead at that exact moment, he would have assigned the task to a much more accomplished DE. But there is definetly something else going on. And so far, my mind is set on Trelawney being abducted so Voldemort can hear her recant the prophecy.

[Defyeverything]

Originally Posted by HJP navy seal

Okay...here comes the crazy theory....Maybe, she had another one of her...moments, and actually saw into the future, and saw Dumbledore alive? And then realized that it was too far a walk to go to someones funeral, when they would come back to life? Just a thought!

But even if she saw the future when she come out of her trance she doesn't rememeber any of it. And as big of a supporter of the "Dumbledore's still alive" fan I was Jo said he's dead as dead can be, so lets not dwell on the fact that him being dead can't come back to life.

[Urania]

I agree with the those who said that Draco didn't know about to plot to kidnap Trelawny, and even if he did... well, it you were working on a very secret project, and someone suddently came into your very secret room, wouldn't you panic just a little bit? If you knew that if the plan failed, you would most probably be killed...? My point is, that even IF Draco knew of the plot he was probably quite surpriced and startled that someone were suddently there in the room with him. I don't think he stopped to concider who it was, or what to do... I think he reacted by instinkt and tossed her out as quickly as possible, in order to prevent her from seeing what he was doing...

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by Defyeverything

But even if she saw the future when she come out of her trance she doesn't rememeber any of it. And as big of a supporter of the "Dumbledore's still alive" fan I was Jo said he's dead as dead can be, so lets not dwell on the fact that him being dead can't come back to life.

Agreed. Trelawney doesn't seem to be the one making the predictions. It's like she's being used as a conduit by a seer who has already passed on. Personally, I think that Trelawney's great-great grandmother is using her as a channel to get important messages to the wizarding world. Even if Voldemort tried to pick apart her brain, I don't think he'd find the information because it's not there.

[Urania]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Agreed. Trelawney doesn't seem to be the one making the predictions. It's like she's being used as a conduit by a seer who has already passed on. Personally, I think that Trelawney's great-great grandmother is using her as a channel to get important messages to the wizarding world. Even if Voldemort tried to pick apart her brain, I don't think he'd find the information because it's not there.

I quite like the idea that it Cassandra that delivers the prophecies through Sybil. But be that as it might, I still believe that the knowledge about them lies deep within Sybil, even though she's not aware.
Our experience with the pensive gives me the feeling that the wizarding mind can keep a lot more information than the wizard himself are aware of.
Harry, when in presens of dementores remember his parentes murders even though he didn't know he did prior to PoA, the information was hidden somewhere inside his mind...
I'm pretty sure it's the same with Trelawny... if there was no way to get the information from her, then why does Dumbledore seems to think she would be in danger outside of Hogwarts... Voldemort would have known if there was no use in capture her, Snape would have told him, if he's good - to protect her, if he's bad - to warn Voldemort of wasting his time. (This was not to start a speculation on the Snape theme... just to point out why Voldmort would know).

[teardrops17]

Oh no!
I don't want Sybilli dead... oh no...
my dear poor sybilli....

seriously...

but seems unlikely...
if it's true... IT'S CRUCIAL...
there's "nothing" secretive.... there's no secret to be hidden if she was abducted.....

no plot would have been exposed if JK revealed that ages ago in HBP...
it wouldn't matter... It's revelation can make the series anticipating... what difference would it make? (unless exagerrated fans)

not like the Mad-eye thing... the whole plot depends on it, so we will be greatly shocked knowing it...

[ronjalina]

Originally Posted by teardrops17

Oh no!
I don't want Sybilli dead... oh no...
my dear poor sybilli....

seriously...

but seems unlikely...
if it's true... IT'S CRUCIAL...
there's "nothing" secretive.... there's no secret to be hidden if she was abducted.....

no plot would have been exposed if JK revealed that ages ago in HBP...
it wouldn't matter... It's revelation can make the series anticipating... what difference would it make? (unless exagerrated fans)

not like the Mad-eye thing... the whole plot depends on it, so we will be greatly shocked knowing it...

I don´t think Sybil is dead, at least not yet. I have a hunch she might deliver another prophecy in DH.

About her possibly missing and being kidnapped by DEs on LV´s orders: I think it is possible. Her not being mentioned after the night DD died, not even at the late Headmaster´s funeral, seems to be suspicous. But it could be of course that Harry just did not mention her specifically or she was absent for a harmless reason. In the latter case, I tend to the hang-over theory.

[shortie97890]

i think that she is hiding in her tower because she is too upset that Dumbledore is gone to come down from there.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by Urania

I quite like the idea that it Cassandra that delivers the prophecies through Sybil. But be that as it might, I still believe that the knowledge about them lies deep within Sybil, even though she's not aware.
Our experience with the pensive gives me the feeling that the wizarding mind can keep a lot more information than the wizard himself are aware of.
Harry, when in presens of dementores remember his parentes murders even though he didn't know he did prior to PoA, the information was hidden somewhere inside his mind...
I'm pretty sure it's the same with Trelawny... if there was no way to get the information from her, then why does Dumbledore seems to think she would be in danger outside of Hogwarts... Voldemort would have known if there was no use in capture her, Snape would have told him, if he's good - to protect her, if he's bad - to warn Voldemort of wasting his time. (This was not to start a speculation on the Snape theme... just to point out why Voldmort would know).

It's true Dumbledore thinks Trelawney would be in danger outside of Hogwarts. However, I don't think it's because she has any retention in memory of the prophecies she has made. Dumbledore knows that Voldemort would assume Trelawney's memory could be picked -- however, if you are only the vessel, you wouldn't have the memory. Nevertheless, it would still leave Trelawney brain dead (or just dead). Dumbledore never said that the prophecy information was in danger, just Trelawney.

[Urania]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

It's true Dumbledore thinks Trelawney would be in danger outside of Hogwarts. However, I don't think it's because she has any retention in memory of the prophecies she has made. Dumbledore knows that Voldemort would assume Trelawney's memory could be picked -- however, if you are only the vessel, you wouldn't have the memory. Nevertheless, it would still leave Trelawney brain dead (or just dead). Dumbledore never said that the prophecy information was in danger, just Trelawney.

Dumbledore knew that Snape was his only link to get information to Voldemort. If he knew that by telling Snape that Trelawny might be making prophecies but she had no recollection (sp?) of it, she would be safer, he surely would do that! No matter if Snape is good or bad he would bring the message to Voldemort, and then she would be in no more danger than anyone else...

[Schlubalybub]

I think that just because she wasn't mentioned, doesn't mean she wasn't there. And maybe she decided to watch from her tower? I mean she doesn't like to mingle with even the other staff, she's not going to want to go to the funeral of a very popular man

[gottriplets]

Well here's my two cents...LV had causing Harry to "visit" the hallway in dreamland at the Ministry that led to the prophecy room. One DE had already tried to retrieve the prophecy (I can't remember who he was but I believe he was arrested). Anyway Nagini possessed by LV probably slithered his way into the prophecy room after Arthur was bitten and did see the prophecy. However it happened. The prophecy was clearly marked

S.P.T. to A.P.W.B.D. Dark Lord and (?) Harry Potter

it probably wouldn't take a genius to figure out who S.P.T. is. Anyway, the DE's dispatched to wait for Harry to show up and retrieve the prophecy also saw the initals.

Even if you suggest that Snape (DE at the time) told LV about overhearing the prophecy...he still didn't hear the whole thing and at the time neither were teachers, so they wouldn't know each other. OK, maybe Snape recognized her at the school and if he is bad he told LV about her being the one to give the prophecy, or if he is good..he never disclosed that info.

Since the Peruvian darkness was used and the hallway was dark, she used the secret passageway (behind the tapestry, where Barnabus the Barmy was teaching trolls ballet) to escape and would have had time to do this. Went back to her tower and shut herself away...after all no one would listen to her omens about the playing cards she kept reading all year and the cards would never change...and the danger was coming ever closer. Because everyone thought she was a fraud.

I think the idea that she was kidnapped is brilliant, I just wonder though if they would have taken the time to do that. They had a "bigger fish to fry", DD. Plus the Peruvian darkness probably hid her pretty well if she didn't know about the tapestry passage and was hanging around.

If she didn't go to the funeral, maybe she was in her Divination Room still pouting about Firenze and didn't want to be any where he was.

[dobbysfriend]

She was lifting a glass of sherry to Dumbledore's memory up in her tower.

[RiverIsis]

Originally Posted by gottriplets

I think the idea that she was kidnapped is brilliant, I just wonder though if they would have taken the time to do that. They had a "bigger fish to fry", DD. Plus the Peruvian darkness probably hid her pretty well if she didn't know about the tapestry passage and was hanging around.

The DE's that we know entered

Sorry does anyone have the canon on why they couldn't escape back out of the RoR?

The DE's entered through the Vanishing Cabinet in the RoR under the cover of Peruvian darkness they get through that corridor and head to the tower.

I know that any good plan has two means of escape...but I can't remember why they didn't just go back the way they came.

[Urania]

I wondered that as well, but I think it was because they wanted to get out quickly, and perhaps they thought that some from the order would have blocked the way out through RoR... besides, we don't know for sure that some of them didn't just take that way, Fenrir isn't running with Snape and Malfoy as far as we know anyway... so he could have taken the RoR out again...

[RiverIsis]

I guess my point is that maybe another DE came in and went out through RoR and could have had someone else with them at the time. But of course this is pure speculation...there is nothing to support it other than that there was no mention of escape through the RoR to my memory.

[Urania]

No there was no mentioning of anyone escaping through RoR, and you're absolutely right, someone could easily have kidnapped Trelawny and escaped that way without anyone notecing (sp?)
And just because we and Harry don't know anything doesn't mean that the staff haven't noticed if she was missing... if she indeed is missing, and the staff wishes to have Hogwarts reopen it's not the best strategy to openly proclaim "Hey, our headmaster's been killed by one of our teachers AND another one of the teachers has gone missing and they both were at Hogwarts at the time"... that wouldn't be very clever...
McGonnagal could easily have alerted the Order and started the serch for her without telling Harry, and without making it something everyone knew... perhaps they have better chances of rescuing her if Voldemort and the DE's don't get any wind of them trying...
I'm rambling, but it make sense to me...

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by Urania

Dumbledore knew that Snape was his only link to get information to Voldemort. If he knew that by telling Snape that Trelawny might be making prophecies but she had no recollection (sp?) of it, she would be safer, he surely would do that! No matter if Snape is good or bad he would bring the message to Voldemort, and then she would be in no more danger than anyone else...

Not necessarily, because Snape had no idea that there was more to the prophecy. In HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry that they are the only two people in the world who know the entire prophecy contents and Dumbledore told Harry that the barman threw Snape out before Trelawney had finished telling the prophecy.

Dumbledore was the only one inside the room who would know what happened, Trelawney shouldn't have that memory at all because she was in a trance -- Snape was thrown out after the first half of it. So either she manufactured it (she was assuming of course that Snape also wanted a job and was spying on her interview for tips, but she had no proof), or Dumbledore modified her memory for her own safety (which I suspect is what happened). But either way, she's in danger because Voldemort eventually found out that he either misinterpreted the prophecy or there was more to it, because of his demise at Godric's Hollow, which was why he was so keen to get the prophecy from the DoM.

Originally Posted by Urania

I wondered that as well, but I think it was because they wanted to get out quickly, and perhaps they thought that some from the order would have blocked the way out through RoR... besides, we don't know for sure that some of them didn't just take that way, Fenrir isn't running with Snape and Malfoy as far as we know anyway... so he could have taken the RoR out again...

Once Malfoy had left the RoR, the room would disappear. To re-enter it, the DE's would have to know the purpose of the room (to hide something) to get to the vanishing cabinet. Unlikely the DE's would know that, and evidence shows none of them ran in that direction.

[Urania]

As far as we know most of the DE's went to Hogwarts as children... I don't think it's completely impossible for them to have realized what the room was and how to use it... It would have been stupid to only have one escape way, and Voldemort himself surely knew... he could have simply made Malfoy say exactly what he used the room for!
As to wheater og not Snape knew... we have two very different accounts for what happend that night when she made the prophecy and we don't know yet which is true... if Snape indeed only heard the forst half, then why do Trelawny remember seeing him after the prophecy? Anyway that's another story and another thread...
My point is Dumbledore would have known it if she didn't remember... he could have said to Snape "Hey dude, you know Trelawny, she has NO idea she made the prophecy and it's not anywhere in her memory, so there would be NO point in capturing her if one wanted to know the rest of the prophecy" and as I stated earlier, no matter if Snape's good or bad, he WOULD have told Voldemort...