Why was the Ministry of Magic empty???

[the_obliviator]

QUOTE]I reckon that by this point - a whole year after Voldemort had returned - the Death Eaters had decided to throw caution to the wind, and if the Ministry found out, well, so what.[[/quote]

I don't think so...remember, Voldemort himself didn't come, according to Bellatrix, because there would be no point in risking the Ministry seeing him when they were all busy pretending he wasn't back (or words to that effect.)

[sholeigh]

Originally Posted by the_obliviator

I don't think so...remember, Voldemort himself didn't come, according to Bellatrix, because there would be no point in risking the Ministry seeing him when they were all busy pretending he wasn't back (or words to that effect.)

Yes, I remember that quote. The Ministry had conveniently ignored Voldemort's return for a year, but I think that, because of this, the Death Eaters and Voldemort had no respect for the Ministry at all. The Death Eaters didn't want to reveal themselves to the Ministry, but then they knew pretty well that the Ministry would never connect the Death Eaters to the rebirth of Voldemort even if the Ministry did catch them breaking in. And Voldemort did eventually Apparate into the Ministry of Magic Atrium, where he would surely be spotted by someone. To me this says Voldemort no longer cared whether the Ministry recognised his existance or not. Voldemort had been allowed a full year to regain power and allies. By then he was more than a match for the Ministry.

[MaWeasley]

Originally Posted by msstinson

What I can't figure out is why noone was guarding the door into the Department of Mysteries. Knowing that members of the order were guarding it around the clock before, why was noone there now? I think maybe whoever was there was taken out when the DEs arrived. The question then would be why it was never mentioned.

I can believe given the late hour that no MOM employees, or very few anyway, would be around. But I had forgotten about the order doing guard duty. Wasn't the prophesy what they were guarding? When did they stop doing that? And why?

Snape told Dumbledore that Harry was dreaming about the DOM, why didn't he redouble the order's watch over it?

[Beatifically]

I think that the reason why they weren't there was because it was in the middle of the night. When Harry is back in Dumbledore's office, Harry hears people going off to eat breakfast....
But still, it seems pretty stupid of the MoM to leave the whole entire place unguarded. Don't they have confidential stuff in the building? Like the Department of Mysteries?
Ugh, it seems like the Ministry is far stupider than I thought.

[WMLizard]

I think many of the reasons given for the Ministry being empty when the DA arrive are accurate-it was late, after normal hours (given how small the Wizarding government is, I doubt there are "night workers". Even the large US government functions mostly on an 8-4:30 schedule). There probably was security, a couple of guards. But 12 DEs who had planned for months could certainly figure out a way around them, particularly since some of the DEs were Ministry employees or respected community members that no guard would suspect of leading an attack.

What I find odd is that Voldemort's vision comes to Harry during an exam, in the afternoon, and his conversation with Kreacher also happens then. We're told that Kreacher injured Buckbeak to keep Sirius out of the kitchen-how long could tending to Buckbeak take? LV and the DEs had no way of knowing that Harry would get caught by Umbridge, delayed in the Forest, or have to take Thestrals to London, meaning they expected Harry to arrive much earlier-so why would the Ministry have been empty in the afternoon?

[SIRIUSlyawesome]

I do not think that it was empty, just not swarming with people. When Harry got there it was already night time, so most people must've got home. The Death Eaters probably came and stupified the guard at the lobby of the MOM, mabye even killed him, and got in.

[skippaduu]

good point. i never really thought about why MoM was empty until now... it seems very weird, i would have at least expected some security in an important place like that. As to why it was empty,i can't really say. perhaps there were some people but were quickly subdued by the death eaters in order to let harry go get the prophecy

[charmedp7]

I'm rereading OotP, and I just finished "Fight and Flight". Now this ends when Harry agress that Ginny, Neville and Luna can come along with the trio and they're about to set off on the thestrals. In the chapter before, when Harry is trying to convince Hermione that his vision abotu Sirius is real, Hermione asks why/how on earth Voldemort would/could be in the MoM or even the DoM if it's 5 o'clock in the afternoon. And I remember that when they're flying the thestrals Jo describes the sunset and all...now assuming that it was about 9 o'clock at night when they were flying. And when they arrived at the Ministry, it wouldn't have been after midnight. And after that long blab I still think that SOMEONE should of been at the Ministry, I mean seriously...you don't keep the place that keeps you whole government running-emtpy.

[elfears91]

Originally Posted by WMLizard

What I find odd is that Voldemort's vision comes to Harry during an exam, in the afternoon, and his conversation with Kreacher also happens then. We're told that Kreacher injured Buckbeak to keep Sirius out of the kitchen-how long could tending to Buckbeak take? LV and the DEs had no way of knowing that Harry would get caught by Umbridge, delayed in the Forest, or have to take Thestrals to London, meaning they expected Harry to arrive much earlier-so why would the Ministry have been empty in the afternoon?

I think the deatheaters had some sort of uhhh i can't think of the wordlike a signal (not the word i wanted) that went off when harry and the others arrived at the ministry. Maybe a few of them were stationed at the ministry all day and were watching something similar to a security camera and when something showed that the kids had arrived they sent a message to the other DE who arrived and made sure that where the students were was empty....someone help me think of the word i wanted pleasseee i dont like not thinking of words

[TreacleFudge]

Originally Posted by witchygurl

They were talking about this on Mugglecast, and they mentioned how they thought it was like those charms put on the quidditch stadium for muggles who then forget why they came, and remember an appointment. I think the workers were somehow "put out of the way"

By the way, when harry suggests it, it is earlier in the day, sometime in the afternoon. But the whole affair with umbridge and the centaurs delayed things a bit. so by the time they got there, it was later, and everyone had gone home. There were probably some guards, but either they were bribed, imperiused, whatever.

i think an interesting question would be, whether voldemort mean to go out into the open there. i mean, he didn't actually try to hide himself, did he?

I was listening to that Mugglecast earlier! I think that theory makes total sense. We will probably never find out...

About the Lord Voldemort question... I don't think he was planning to make an appearance. But when he found out that the prophecy was destroyed (through Harry or Bellatrix?) he decided the time was right to, I guess, take some action.

[WMLizard]

I think the real question is why would the ministry have been empty if the kids had shown up when Harry first got the message, that afternoon. Or was there a different plan in place earlier in the day?

[sholeigh]

Originally Posted by WMLizard

I think the real question is why would the ministry have been empty if the kids had shown up when Harry first got the message, that afternoon. Or was there a different plan in place earlier in the day?

I think it would still have taken hours for them to reach the Ministry of Magic. None of the kids could Apparate at this point, and all the fireplaces were being watched by Umbridge. So broom, Thestral or public transport were the obvious options the Death Eaters would have expected them to take. I reckon the earliest Harry might have arrived would be sunset, and I'm sure Harry's vision was carefully timed to make this true.

[msstinson]

Okay, lets see if we can't figure out a general timeline for these events. It''s five in the afternoon when Harry has the dream of Voldything and Sirius. I figure 60 minutes between then and the time they try to sneak into Umbridges office, allowing time for waiting for the hall to clear, and traveling to go for the invisibility cloak. Another 30 minutes after Umbridge catches them in the office allowing for Malfoy to go get Snape, so that would make it about 6:30 or so when they head down to the forest. Don't forget that Harry specificaly mentions people in the Great Hall for dinner. Since it was late May to Early June, I don't think the sun would start to set until about 8 or 8:30 so that leaves about 2 hours to play with in the forest when the Centaurs and Grawp make their appearances. I think it probably took them about 2 hours to get to the ministry since JKR says the thestrals are fast fliers so that would mean they got to the ministry about 10:30. It is mentioned that it's dark by the time they arrived. Assuming I am correct, I don't think there would be any workers there at the time. I still wonder why the Order was slacking off on guard duty for the Hall of Prophecy though. I suppose durring all that time, whoever was there could have been taken out but I don't see why that wasn't mentioned as a casualty of the battle that "so-and-so" was killed before Harry got there and that's why he wasn't stopped from entering nor were any DE,s.

It's getting very late here and I'm sorta giving myself a headache. If any of you find my estimations questionable or would like to discuss it further either send me an email, or and owl, or put up another post. I'd love to hear thoughts.

[RiverIsis]

Originally Posted by msstinson

Okay, lets see if we can't figure out a general timeline for these events. It''s five in the afternoon when Harry has the dream of Voldything and Sirius. I figure 60 minutes between then and the time they try to sneak into Umbridges office, allowing time for waiting for the hall to clear, and traveling to go for the invisibility cloak. Another 30 minutes after Umbridge catches them in the office allowing for Malfoy to go get Snape, so that would make it about 6:30 or so when they head down to the forest. Don't forget that Harry specificaly mentions people in the Great Hall for dinner. Since it was late May to Early June, I don't think the sun would start to set until about 8 or 8:30 so that leaves about 2 hours to play with in the forest when the Centaurs and Grawp make their appearances. I think it probably took them about 2 hours to get to the ministry since JKR says the thestrals are fast fliers so that would mean they got to the ministry about 10:30. It is mentioned that it's dark by the time they arrived. Assuming I am correct, I don't think there would be any workers there at the time. I still wonder why the Order was slacking off on guard duty for the Hall of Prophecy though. I suppose durring all that time, whoever was there could have been taken out but I don't see why that wasn't mentioned as a casualty of the battle that "so-and-so" was killed before Harry got there and that's why he wasn't stopped from entering nor were any DE,s.

It's getting very late here and I'm sorta giving myself a headache. If any of you find my estimations questionable or would like to discuss it further either send me an email, or and owl, or put up another post. I'd love to hear thoughts.

You forgot the sunset - and they are in Scotland which nearly has 24 hour day in the summer.

Here is the current daylight times for Edinburgh Scotland which is probably our best guess as to Hogwarts timings.
Date - sunrise - sunset
May 30, 2007 4:38 AM 9:44 PM
May 31, 2007 4:37 AM 9:45 PM
Jun 1, 2007 4:36 AM 9:46 PM
Jun 2, 2007 4:35 AM 9:48 PM
Jun 3, 2007 4:34 AM 9:49 PM
Jun 4, 2007 4:33 AM 9:50 PM
Jun 5, 2007 4:32 AM 9:52 PM

[sholeigh]

msstinson
I think you have a good estimate of the time they spent in the forest. I would probably add a couple of hours to the Thestral flying time, making the arrival time at the Ministry around 12.30am or so. This is surely late enough that even very dedicated (Percy) or overworked (Arthur) Ministry employees would have Apparated home by then. This leaves about 3 hours for all the events inside the Ministry to take place, so that Dumbledore and Harry are back at Hogwarts and discussing the Prophecy as the sun comes up. If you have the six DA members arriving earlier than midnight I think it is difficult to justify all those hours spent in finding the Hall of Prophecy and being chased by the Death Eaters.


Thanks for the times, RiverIsis

[dobbysfriend]

Ok, they were government employees and it was tea time, need I say more???

[Iqen]

I have always wondered why there was nobody in the MoM. I just guessed it was due to late timings but I still wonder why there wasn't at least one person keeping guard.

[RiverIsis]

Originally Posted by dobbysfriend

Ok, they were government employees and it was tea time, need I say more???

Maybe Mundungus was also working at the MoM as the night security guard? (sorry couldn't resist - definitely a posting in jest)

[JJFinch]

I think we've diffinitely all reached an agreement that the Harry & co were at the MoM sometime in the early hours. Many seem to feel that the employees would all have gone home at this point, but, a building of such importance would be gaurded, particularly the departments concerned in the fight. Like I said in my introductory post, the Mom isn't just a government building, it has the equivalent of Scotland Yard, MI5/CIA/FBI (don't know the difference), top university science labs, immigration control, army, etc, etc - if you ring 999 (that's 911, in America if you don't know what I'm talking about, and if you still don't know what I'm talking about because you're in anouther country, that's the emergency telephone number for police, ambulance, fire, coastguard) and you get an answering machine saying "I'm sorry, the police are not available at the moment, please leave a message after the tone", you're not going to be too pleased are you? My point is that there will be night-workers due to the nature of the Ministry's job, therefore the building will be open and there will be guards on duty.

Carry on, I've got to go.

[wulfric_brian]

Originally Posted by sholeigh

msstinson
I think you have a good estimate of the time they spent in the forest. I would probably add a couple of hours to the Thestral flying time, making the arrival time at the Ministry around 12.30am or so. This is surely late enough that even very dedicated (Percy) or overworked (Arthur) Ministry employees would have Apparated home by then. This leaves about 3 hours for all the events inside the Ministry to take place, so that Dumbledore and Harry are back at Hogwarts and discussing the Prophecy as the sun comes up. If you have the six DA members arriving earlier than midnight I think it is difficult to justify all those hours spent in finding the Hall of Prophecy and being chased by the Death Eaters.

Exactly. Bearing in kind they are coming from northern Scotland (although i believe that is being discussed in another thread.)