Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Harry Potter Archives > Divination Studies

ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.



 
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old May 17th, 2007, 9:01 pm
Bscorp's Avatar
Bscorp  Undisclosed.gif Bscorp is offline
Seventh Year
 
Joined: 4084 days
Posts: 1,502
ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

No spoilers are allowed in these areas. Please make sure you've read our Deathly Hallows Conduct Notice!





Quote:
"Harry - I think I've just understood something! I've got to go to the library!"
And she sprinted away, up the stairs.
"What does she understand?" said Harry distractedly, still looking
around, trying to tell where the voice had come from.
"Loads more than I do," said Ron, shaking his head.
"But why's she got to go to the library?"
"Because that's what Hermione does," said Ron, shrugging. "When in
doubt, go to the library." (COS-p255)
I have been asked to move this thread to Divination for the sole purpose of discussing the theory of Irma Pince as Eileen Prince = Severus Snape’s Mother “in hiding.”

Note: This thread adopts the assumption that Irma Pince is Eileen Prince for the purpose of seriously discusses any and all possible clues of a mother/son relationship between these two characters and all the ramifications such a connection would have for the series.

This thread is for those who want to accept this assumption and discuss it further. This thread is not for those who dismiss this idea all together. Though I invite any one to post questions for the purpose of clarification on certain aspects of the theory I do not wish to debate the theory as valid or invalid as a whole. The purpose of this thread is to explore it further and invite speculation with basis in canon.

The topics that have been brought up that I will attempt to recollect for this thread are;

1.) The Canon: Clues within the text that suggest a maternal connection between Snape and Pince in SS/PS, COS, OOP, etc.
  • ”OUT! OUT! OUT!” : Pince's quotes and mannerisms that mimic a wounded Snape's quotes and mannerisms.
  • The Flich Factor: How he is connected to both Pince and Snape.
  • Citations in supplementary text as canon including "Quidditch Through the Ages" (what is the definition of "Transubstantial Transfiguration?) and "Fantastic Beast and Where to Find Them," that encourage this connection. (is Irma an "Augury” or the Irish Phoenix”? )
2.) The Hidden Subtext: Metaphors and Symbolism connecting Pince and Snape.
  • "The Bird" and "The Universal": Etymology behind Eileen's Name and Irma's name.
  • Irma as “Irmin” and the cult of the Hermiones.
  • The Prince or the Pharaoh: “The Half Blood Prince” and the “Underfed Vulture.” Pince–posed specifically as Mother and Guardian to her son, the “Prince” or “Pharoah.”
  • ”Professor Snape Boggart” as a 3 step series of symbols connecting Egyptian symbols of Ancestry and Death.
  • Snape& the Banshees: Irma and “The Immram” and "the Veil"
3.) Further Speculation:
  • What is Filch’s role?
  • Why can't Rowling Tell us Snape 's Patronus or Boggart?
  • Who was that “Awful boy?’
  • Why "Snape's mom is Alive!" would be a revelation that is indeed relevant and influential to the overall theme of the series and it's conclusion.
  • What connection Eileen might have had with Tom Riddle and/or Lord Voldemort and could she help Harry in the end?
  • What impact Eileen Prince would have on the interpretation of Snape's motives and his reasons for taking the Unbreakable Vow and how it does –or doesn’t – resolve Snape’s “loyalty” to Dumbledore.
  • How Harry and Snape, and Draco, compare or contrast in relationship to their Mothers.
  • How would Harry accept Snape's mother hiding in Hogwarts?
  • Any further speculations of Irma/Eilleens relationship.
I had some long posts in the Eillen Prince thread I would like to copy over to keep as a resource. I cited many references of many great “Potterheads” that have brought this theory to surface. I will credit them and I will gather my own observations and quotes as well. Right off the bat- I would like to cite an excellent essay by "Pam2002" on Leaky Lounge that explains a lot of the Irma=Eileen clues very well. “Madam Pince Is She Really Eileen Prince?”

We can elaborate upon it this in context of some of the great essays presented here on Mugglenet by Emerald, and Lady Lupin that I think play into this idea. Often in cyberspace a lot of theories pop up in a Zeitgist across the internet. So it's hard to pick out who thought of what first, but If it’s accepted canon or just text from the books, I'll just cite the pages and ut if it anyone else's summaries or ideas- but my own- I will give the proper credit. There are some interpretations I’ve come up with as well that I’d like to throw into the mix as I go along.


The Canon: repetition in Text and Behaviors of Professor Snape and Madame Pince

SS/PS:

Harry wants to find out about Nicholas Flamel. He is sure that Pince can tell them something but is afraid to ask Pince for help in case she might tell Snape. This is the first among many clues that installs a connection in the Reader’s mind the Pince and Snape. In Harry's view, they are on the same page– keeping Harry knowing too much. There is language that connects the two as well.

“What they needed was a nice long search without Madam Pince breathing down their necks, (p198.)”

later, the phrase is repeated,

“Snape made them all nervous, breathing down their necks while they tried to remember how to make a Forgetfulness potion (p 262.)”


When the trio are out on the lawn, Snape comes up to them. They seem to be hiding something (Hermione is hiding her jar of fire.) So Snape is suspicious. He is also wounded and extra pesky.
"What's that you've got there, Potter?"
It was Quidditch Through the Ages. Harry showed him.
"Library books are not to be taken outside the school," said Snape.
"Give it to me. Five points from Gryffindor." (p 181)
Later Harry tries to retrieve it and Harry intrudes on the scene where Filch is bandaging Snape’ leg and Harry is Ejected.

“POTTER!”
Snape’s face was twisted with fury as he dropped his robes quickly to hide his leg. Harry gulped.
“I just wondered if I could have my book back.”
GET OUT! OUT!” (P.183)
In the following chapter, we see Madame Pince ejecting Harry from the library using similar terms.
“What are you looking for, boy?”
“Nothing,” said Harry.
Madam Pince the librarian brandished a feather duster at him.
“You’d better “get out, “ then. Go on – out! ” (p.198)
This scene directly foreshadows the much harsher ejection from Snape’s office in OOP (detailed a little ways down.)

COS: Repetition of mannerisms.

Snape’s suspicions of Harry are carried over in Pince’s own behavior. After Snape eyes Harry suspiciously upon the discovery of Mrs. Norris. He questions Potter’s “truthfulness” and he seems determined to prove that he is lying about something. In the very next chapter, Pince eyes the Lockhart’s release not for the “Most Potente Potions” Book very closely. She holds it up to the light- “determined to detect a forgery (p 164.)”

I will quote the Pam2002 here, as she makes a wonderful observation about this moment.

Quote:
“Interestingly enough, in Sorcerer’s Stone, the book Snape takes from Harry mentions Madam Pince in the introduction, while here in Chamber of Secrets, it’s a Potions book the Trio are trying to get from the library. Once again Rowling appears to be using parallels between Snape and Pince, placing in the Trio’s hands the books that belong to the other. (Pam2002)
I will add that when Harry asked Snape for “Quidditch Through the Ages” Back, he calls it “my book,” when in fact the book is labeled, "Property of Hogwarts Library." Harry borrowed it from Hermione, who borrowed it from the library (she is muggle-born and not a Quidditch Player I see no reason she would own her own.)

This "Most Potente Potions" book exchange from COS foreshadows the "Advanced Potions" book exchange between Harry and Snape in HBP. Harry borrows a 50ish year old "Advanced Potions "book that once belonged to Snape. It is labeled the "Property of The Half Blood Prince.” This book led Harry to discover Snape’s past self, and it led Hermione to discover his Mother Eileen- whom I suspect lent Snape the book in the first place (as it is very old, the walls of Snape’ s house are covered in old books suggesting that Eileen may have had her own copy to pass on.) At one point in HBP, Harry also calls The Potions book, "my book." at the moment when Madam Pince screams "Befouled" and tries to snatch it from Harry.

OOP: Repetition of dialog and mannerisms;

In the chapter "Snape's Worst Memory" Harry is caught taking an uninvited look into Snape's pensieve after He sees a Young Snape humiliated by James.
…a hand closed tight over his upper arm, closed with a pincer like grip. Wincing, Harry looked around to see who had hold of him, and saw, with a thrill of horror, a full-grown, adult-sized Snape standing right beside him, white with rage. "Get out, get out, I don’t want to see you in this office ever again!” And as Harry hurtled toward the door, a jar of dead cockroaches exploded over his head(p 650.)
Harry then runs from Snape’s office as fast as he can.

Here again, Pince follows Snape in very next chapter by ejecting Harry and Ginny in a similar CAPSLOCK fashion after catching Ginny with a chocolate Easter egg.

"WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU ARE DOING?”
“Oh, damn,” whispered Ginny, jumping to her feet. “I forgot-“
Madam Pince was swooping down upon them, her shriveled face contorted with rage.
“Chocolate in the library!” she screamed. “Out-out-OUT! And whipping out her wand, she caused Harry’s books, bag, and ink bottle to chase him and Ginny from the library, whacking them repeatedly over the head as they ran (p 655)
Again Pince screams at them in a very similar fashion as Snape and Harry, runs away from something being hurled at him. Both these scenes in PS/SS and OOP- are parallel in that Harry intrudes on something private, and/or secretive, Snape is seen “exposed” and wounded before Harry is then angrily is ejected by Snape. In both books, Snape’s furious ejection is followed by Madam Pince issuing her own overzealous ejection in similar language and mannerisms. It seems as if Irma is acting on the behalf of Snape in someway or very much like a vengeful Mother of a wounded son. If she can’t be “seen” as a Mother, I suspect she overcompensates and overreacts fiercely to protect “her books.”

Adjectives: and character descriptions:
There are mentions of Madam Pince and Snape “swooping.” Pince swoops between the tables in the library while Harry studies. And Snape is often swooping between students in his classroom. In “QttA” Dumbledore warns that Pince might “swoop” down on the reader should they damage the book. Snape is compared to an swooping overgrown bat, while Irma is compared to swooping an underfed vulture.

Though it has been pointed out that adjectives like “swooping” and “hooked nose” occur often in the series with other characters, I believe Snape is the most identified with the adjective. It was Quirrel/mort that mentioned Snape “swooping around like an overgrown bat,” as a deterrence to suspicion. This makes the adjective indicative of how Snape’s perception adds significantly to his character’s role in the series.


“Quidditch Through the Ages” in PS/SS

Earlier in the same chapter where Snape takes QttA from Harry, the mention is made that Wood thought it would be a good idea if they kept Harry “a secret.” It is clearly stated that Wood’s idea is to hide Harry and reveal him at the last moment as “secret weapon” for their team (could be foreshadowing if anyone else were to be Revealed at the last moment as A secret weapon against Voldemort?)

Speculation:
So…. Let’s apply a “Snapeish” line of questioning back onto that moment in PS/SS when Snape takes that Quidditch Book- from Harry shall we? Why did Rowling have Snape take that book? Why did he take at that moment? Why not any other book? Why not the jar of fire?

Well, It's about Quidditch. Snape may not want Harry to have a leg up on the competition- but we see Snape save Harry later on and referee a game to keep it fair. So the idea of bending the rules for personal bias doesn’t really play out. I believe this moment serves as plot device on a couple other levels.

Aside from the inversion of ownership that Pam2002 pointed out, I believe this incident serves up a couple more purposes. First, the fact that Snape “made up” such a rule is odd and pesky –even for Snape. But his taking of it makes the title clear in the reader’s mind and it associates the Snape/Harry conflict with this book- “Quidditch…” thus- it sparks interest in the supplementary volume.

The title “Quidditch Through the Ages” is interesting because “Quidditch” thought seemingly a made up term, I suspect it is actually a play off the word “Quiddity” This lends something to the themes family and conflict in the series.
Quiddity ( pl. -ties) chiefly Philosophy the inherent nature or essence of someone or something. • a distinctive feature; a peculiarity : “his quirks and quiddities.”
A Quiddity is the philosophical/psychological aspect of someone's personality. It might be the trait that is passed on from a human to an Animagus form (Peter the “rat.” James the Stag etc.) It might also, in turn, lend something to how one's Patronus takes shape. I wonder if Snape’s nose might be a physical metaphor of a “quiddity” while his demeanor and suspicions nature are examples of a psychological quiddity. His poetic use of language while describing the subtle magic of Potions, and the Dark Arts are also one his quiddities.

In turn, "Quiddities through the Ages” would refer to the distinctive personality quirks that are passed down over generations to us by our ancestors. Harry’s talent for Quidditch is a also a “quiddity” identified as a natural talent passed to him from his Father’s side. Harry takes to studying his Quidditch book, quite well. Of course his father was a seeker and Harry has a "talent for seeing things other people don't." He is more fascinated by it than any other subject of course -especially Potions. This book might be symbolic of the connection between Harry and James and the thing that irritates Snape most irrationally about Harry- the quiddities he shares with James. So it’s remarkable that this is the book that Snape takes citing “library” rules.

It is also remarkable that in this book we find Dumbledore's extensive mention of Madam Pince (More on that later) and we can read Irma Pince's own brief but dire warning in the foreword;
“If you rip, tear, shred, bend, fold, deface, disfigure, smear, smudge, throw, drop, or in any other manner damage, mistreat, or show lack of respect towards this book, the consequences will be as awful as it is within my power to make them.”
This warning lists the possible infractions in great detail, and demands “respect” for the book adding that “the consequences will be as awful as it is within my (irma’s) power to make them.” In my opinion, is very Snape-like prose in it's structure and sarcasm. (I think Harry and Ginny got off easy for the chocolate incident.) This passage also shows just how fanatically protective and possessive Irma Pince can be and that she- like Snape -demands respect. This might be a quiddity they have in common.

Second, by Snape taking this book, the incident prompts Harry to ask for the book back (as Harry calls it “my book”) where Harry witnesses Snape’s injury and the odd scene with Filch- establishing the caretaker type relationship Snape seems to have with Filch.

Speculation: The Filch Factor:

When Harry goes to retrieve his book. Filch is seen applying bandages to Snape's wound- after Snape is bitten by Fluffy. This seems odd because,

1.) Snape is a fully capable Wizard who can heal evil curses like Sectumsempra and stopper (Dumbeldore's) death. Logically, He wouldn’t need Muggle bandages.
2.) This is an intimate moment that shows Snape relies on Filch for a personal injury which he does not want Harry to know about or see. He is in the staff room, so he's not hiding his injury from the staff. So why not go to Madam Pomfrey, why Filch- the Squib?

Later Pince is seen "brandishing a feather duster" and this too is odd to me because,

1.) Pince overreacts and mimics Snape's words while evicting Potter.
2.) Pince is a fully capable Witch who can hex books to defend themselves. Logically, she wouldn't need a Muggle cleaning device, there are spells like Scourgify etc., yet she uses one almost like a weapon? Why?

I believe it connects Pince to the only other person in the castle who would need one- Filch.

To me, the feather duster symbolizes a utility that a Witch doesn’t need and muggle bandages symbolize a utility that a Wizard doesn’t need. Both are associated with Filch. As Harry suspects that there is something “going on between” Pince and Filch, I suspect the Filch is a go between Snape and Pince. And the reason he shows up just moments before Snape does in GOF after Harry drops the egg. Filch serves as some kind of substitute where as Snape could not get his “Mother’s care” or even been seen near here for fear of suspicion.

The Phoenix Lament.

HBP is the book when so many characters finally settled down, accept their feelings and discover their "mates." Many character’s sentimental and romantic connections are confirmed. And it’s not until HBP- after the revelation of The Prince’s identity and the discovery of Eileen – that we see Filch so obviously close to Pince as he stands by her side at Dumbledore’ funeral. This moment seems to be JK’s way of confirming that Filch is linked to Pince by something more, and that indeed “there might be something going on between them…” on some level whether or not it is Romantic at all or maybe just now becoming so as their relationship may have followed the same pattern as the other relationships- confirmed as solid in this time of great loss

In this light, Filch treating Snape for a flesh wound makes sense. His care could be seen as more of a utility or substitution of the lack of contact between Snape and his Mother. Snape "needs" Filch like Pince "needs" a feather duster, not for lack of ability, or service provided, but for something else – maybe a missing emotional or sentimental need. Filch is Pince and Snape’s utility when they can’t be seen in contact themselves.

Pince as Snape’s Mother would also explain why Pince is the only one who appears to be in mourning more than anyone else at the funeral. While Harry notes how everyone is appearing their best dressed, Grawp is civil, Tonks “in the pink” again & holding hands with Lupin. Sprout is cleaner than ever. The phoenix element of Dumbledore’s legacy has positively affected most everyone there.

But it’s Madame Pince who is in complete hiding under a “thick black veil that fell to her knees (640)” She is the only one who most projects an image of sadness and loss as she is seen in all black and in hiding still. Maybe because she is the one who’s lost more than any one else there – her son. Though he isn’t dead, Snape is disgraced and on the run for an Unforgivable curse. Snape is doomed to be forever in hiding – or sentenced to The Dementor’s kiss. At least Madam Pince/ Eileen Prince will never be able to contact him her son without peril of some kind to him.

Such as the title suggests, as one kind of life dies, another is reborn from it’s ashes. Pince is the Phoenix in lament. Snape and his mother’s situations may be reversed in DH. As Snape may now be in hiding, maybe we will see Eileen-come out from behind “that veil” and into the light.

(to be continued...)


__________________
"He that wrestles with us strengthens our nerves, and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper." — Edmund Burke
“But the big ones, the Dumbledore storyline, the Snape storyline were always there because you — the series is built around those.” -J.K. Rowling

Last edited by gertiekeddle; July 23rd, 2007 at 8:38 pm.
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old May 17th, 2007, 10:12 pm
SeverusLovesUs's Avatar
SeverusLovesUs  Female.gif SeverusLovesUs is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 4291 days
Age: 34
Posts: 439
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Wow. I didn't realize just how much there was to use in support of this theory. I do like how Filch seems to be connected to both. The name Irma Pince being anagrammed into "Im a prince" is what sold me. I think she would be relevant to the story in the way that her life was threatened if Snape did not become a death eater to begin with. He may not have been able to go through with something Voldemort wanted (maybe to do with Lily and James) and so he feared for her life and turned to Dumbledore for help who offered to hide her as completely as he tells Draco he could hide his family in HBP.


__________________
~*~This space will soon be filled by a new signature~*~
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."-Aristotle
"The only reason indeed, that excuses one from asking any question, simple curiosity."-Oscar Wilde
  #3  
Old May 17th, 2007, 10:22 pm
Bscorp's Avatar
Bscorp  Undisclosed.gif Bscorp is offline
Seventh Year
 
Joined: 4084 days
Posts: 1,502
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Thanks Jessica.

Severuslovesus- I agree. I have more on the Vow subject as well.

HBP: The Unbreakable Vow. When Madam Pince is "BEFOULED!"


The Chapter titled "The Unbreakable Vow" is the middle of HBP that brings together a lot of themes in the book. In the same chapter that Harry over hears Snape and Draco talking about the Vow, Ron speaks of promises, Hermione warns of Love Potion and Draco is hiding his plans – and fear- from Snape, Snape hiding his “fear” or concern about Draco. Everyone is denying their true feelings on some level. In the library it all comes together with Pince overhearing Hermione’s deriding comment about The Prince and Filch.

There are choice mentions in the conversation with Harry and Hermione in the library. Briefly before Harry meets up with Hermione Ron is talking to Ron about the Christmas party, “I never promised Hermione anything…” and asserts his independence as a “free agent” to date whomever he wants. In the library, this incites Hermione to rebut her own feelings about Ron to Harry.

“He’s at perfect liberty to kiss whomever he likes,” Hermione said while the librarian Madam Pince prowled the shelves behind them. I really couldn’t care less”

In the same conversation, with Pince prowling about, Hermione mentions the “Half Blood Prince by name twice. Once when she is warning Harry about love potions. At first Harry assumes she is chastising the Prince. “I am not talking about that so-called Prince,” she warns Harry that Romilda Vane is planning a love potion on him, she chastises the Prince again,
“I doubt whether even the Half Blood Prince”–she gave the book another nasty look – “could dream up an antidote for a dozen different love potions at once…(306)”
Hermione gives “The Prince” ugly look –twice. They also discuss the Potions that are being smuggled into the school and how Filch would miss them. Hermione regards Filch as not a very a good guard against Dark Magic, before Pince reveals herself in a very Snape like appearance, with skin “like parchment.”
“…So it would be down to Filch to realize it wasn’t a cough potion, and he’s not a very good wizard, I doubt he can tell one potion from–“
Hermione stopped dead; Harry had heard it too. Somebody had moved close behind them among the dark bookshelves. They waited and a moment later the vulturelike countenance of madam Pince appear around the corner, her sunken cheeks, her skin like parchment, and her long hooked nose illuminates unflatteringly by the lamp she was carrying.
“The library is now closed,” she said. “Mind you to return anything have borrowed to the correct– What have you been doing to that book you depraved boy!”
“It isn’t the library’s, it’s mine!” said Harry hastily, snatching his copy of Advanced Potin-making off the table as she lunged at it with a claw like hand.
“Despoiled!” she hissed. “Desecrated! Befouled!”
“It’s just a book that’s been written on!” Said Harry, tugging out of her grip.
Later Harry deflect his actions again, by assuming Pince heard them talking about Filch.
“It’s not my fault she’s barking mad” said Harry “or d’you think she overheard you being rude about Flich? I’ve always thought there might be something going on between them…”
Before she sees the book, Pince reminds Harry, “Mind you to return anything have borrowed to the correct–“ Note that she doesn’t tell him to return any “books” but “anything” he has “borrowed.” To Harry it’s just a book but to Pince it is something much, much more. Harry recognizes that Pince’s overreaction seems to be about something more. It is notable that Pince is described as ghostlike, with Skin “Like parchment”– while Harry defends himself saying, “It’s just a book that’s been written in!” and she reacts as if it is not just a book he herself and her own family that has been “befouled.”

Harry wonders if Pince might have overheard their insults about Filch. I suspect, it was not just the insults about Filch, but also about “The Prince’s” name, the book, and – her son’s legacy.

This tone and archaic language of Pince’s revulsion echoes a similar outrageous “barking”of another voice from beyond a type of veil-- In OOP.

It was at 12 Grimmauld Place when Harry heard another woman's voice screeching various archaic insults about the people defiling her house – The House of Black– from behind “a moth eaten velvet curtain." I consider this to be a foreshadow to Madam Pince’s own screeching. When the voice screams, “How dare you befoul the house of My fathers!” just before Sirius introduces her, “Hello Harry, I see you’ve met my Mother?”

By Snape taking his mother’s name, “The Prince’s” Potions book becomes a symbol of knowledge and a kind of power passed down from Mother to Son (if not literally lent to him by his mother.) Therefore the book is also a kind of family heirloom, or legacy that Harry is borrowing. Yet when Harry decides to hide the identity of the book by using taking off the old cover and “reparo-ing” on a new one. He denies that history. He switches the cover but keeps the content, and is effect claiming it as his own. He claims the Prince’s accomplishments, and refuses to give it back -twice. Then -calling back to incident with QttA- Harry calls it “my book!” and by using this book and The Prince’s alterations to better his position in Potions class.

In the same way Snape took QttA from Harry - slighting the metaphor for his father's legacy - Harry took Snape’s Book- slighting The Prince's accomplishments, stealing Snape’s glory, and “befouling” The Prince’s name. The irony I enjoy about it all it that Pince acts like she owns of those books!


On the Nose. or how to fakes ones death through Transubstantial Transfiguration.


Throughout the series, Snape is continually described with his “hooked nose,” however, In OOP, when Tonks –The Metamorphamagus –makes faces at the table, Harry perceives “Snape’s beak like nose.” Nowhere before this 3rd person’s “unflattering” rendition of Snape's nose has his nose been compared to a "beak."

In PS/SS Madam Pince was “a thin, irritable woman who looked like an underfed vulture.” Throughout the series Pince is often describes as having a “vulturelike.” and = suggests her nose is indeed “beaklike.” But in HBP, “her sunken cheeks, her skin like parchment, and her long hooked nose illuminated unflatteringly by the lamp she was carrying.” For the first time in the series- at the very moment she discovers the Prince's book- she has Snape’s “hooked” nose.

In the repetition of text alone, is clear that Rowling is associating Snape to Pince on some level. But how can we assume she’s a relative at all? The vision that Harry sees In Snape mind shows Snape as a young boy crying in the corner while a “hooked nose” man screams at a cowering woman. If we presume that Snape’s father was the hooked nose man (which we don’t know for sure, maybe it was an Uncle – or some other relative,) screaming at his mother – then we know Snape didn’t get his nose from his mother Eileen.

So if it came from this Father's side of his family, why would Irma-As-Eileen have a "hooked nose?" Well- maybe she took her in part from Snape, Sr. or Jr. - when she transfigured to go into hiding. “But how and why?"

Both might be answered with the Title of the same book that Pince beat Dumbledore about the head with, “Theories of Transubstantial Transfiguration.”
Transubstantiation: is a noun from Christian Theology: “(esp. in the Roman Catholic Church) the conversion of the substance of the Eucharistic elements into the body and blood of Christ at consecration, only the appearances of bread and wine still remaining. A formal a change in the form or substance of something.”
Transfiguration: is a term that means “a complete change of form or appearance into a more beautiful or spiritual state : in this light the junk undergoes a transfiguration; it shines. • the church festival commemorating this,”

Keep in mind that Dumbledore’s subject as a teacher was transfiguration. Irma wouldn't have to look like Snape in any other aspect, but she could have kept "his" nose as a kind of sentimental identifying trait and still be unrecognizable to anyone.


Back to that book that Snape took from Harry. “Quidditch Through the Ages”(QttA.) This is the book in which Dumbledore refers to "Theories of Transubstantial Transfiguration" in the foreword thanking Madam Pince while citing her overzealous guardian like behavior about her Books and he tells us that Irma herself suggested to Dumbledore he "fake his death" to protect this book. By my understanding of the definitions I’ve cited above, "Theories of Transubstantial Transfiguration" is actually a book about re-birth, or being brought back from the dead– transfigured both physically and spiritually.

If we read “Quiddities through the Ages” or Quiddities over time could be those the aspects of our personalities and distinctive character traits derived from our ancestry that might remain after such a Transfiguration. It’s mostly personalities that reveal a character and our connection to our family, maybe more so than our physical features. Much like Pince’s words and behaviors mimics Snape her – nose was made to mimic his as well to keep that connection to his distinctive trait from his father- her husband.

Dumbledore said: “We can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine”

In the last dialog we hear between Dumbledore and Draco on the lightening struck tower, Dumbledore knows he will be dead by the end of this scene. It is clear that Draco is in fact “not a killer.” He tells Draco he does not have much time. The Evil Green Potion is working on him, his hand is rotting, Snape has stoppered his death but not for long. A lot of readers assume this means he knew about the Unbreakable Vow and is waiting for Snape to act on it. But before the others get to the scene Dumbledore tells Draco-

"He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me — forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother — it is what they would do themselves, after all. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban […] (p591)" Read the quote on Wiki here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_blood_prince
This text was supposedly edited out of the UK version for “length” but it’s clear to most readers that it gives something away. This revelation led to rampant speculation across the internet and elsewhere that "Dumbledore is really Alive!" up until the day Rowling said, um no. "Dumbledore is definitely dead." Taking a closer look, it’s clear to me that Dumbledore was not talking about plans for himself, but for Draco and his mom. He tells Draco these things;
1) Voldemort would kill him and the DE would kill his mother.
2) We can fake death,
3) We can hide you and your mother – very, very well.

Just before this Draco said himself, "He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got no choice." Draco did not “do it” so he is as of now, still in peril and he and his mother will need to hide.


But why go through the trouble of hiding someone so completely if they're still going to make the same mistakes? A complete transfiguration would rely on a complete life change- psycholgical and spiritual. DD could have taken Draco's family aside at anytime that year and hidden them with a physcial transformation but he needed Draco to reach a certain point for his own good. In HBP, Draco refuses to let Snape in on his plans and appears to block Snape out. “Listen to me” said Snape, (…) “I am trying to help you. I swore to your mother I would protect you. I made an Unbreakable Vow, Draco–“ (Draco replies,)“looks like you’ll have to break it then because I don’t need your protection!(323)" But in fact he does. Dumbledore needed Draco to SEE the light for himself before he could make such an offer. Until Draco reached that point- such an offer for this change would not have been possible.

Dumbledore says this statement with absolute certainty most likely because he has done it before, maybe for the same man whom he insisted be there for his death. The one who finally arrives on the scene to enact the Vow for the protection for Draco - Snape.


An important Aside; In Chamber of Secrets, at Borgin and Burkes, Harry is hiding from the Malfoy’s, Rowling also lists other things, the vanishing cabinet, a hanged man's rope, the cursed necklace all things mentioned in passing that foreshadow the events leading up to the HBP.
"Ah, the Hand of Glory!" said Mr. Borgin, abandoning Mr. Malfoy's list and scurrying over to Draco. "Insert a candle and it gives light only to the holder! Best friend of thieves and plunderers! Your son has fine taste, sir."
The “Hand of Glory.” is a mythical lamp that only uses the hand of a “Hanged Murder.” Snape was visually compared to the (tarot) Hanged Man (In Snape's Worst Memory). Now he is an accused murder. In HBP, Draco twice accuses Snape of trying to “steal his Glory” to be Voldemort’s favorite. In the end, Snape does in effect steal Draco’s “Glory” by taking on the murders role, Thus saving Draco from Voldemort, and keeping Draco’s soul unsplit and “whole.”

The significance of the trade off between Snape and Draco is how it was all put in place By a Mother's request to protect her son. Also this Vow was taken by Snape in his (presumablely) Mother's House. If Snape’s own mother Eileen was someone who faked her own death to remain with her son and/or to protect her family on some level – Snape and his unbreakable vow is much more meaningful. Now – if it wasn’t before- Severus Snape is a “hanged man” who’s soul may very well be “severed.” Draco’s is “Whole.” Now Draco may very well take Snape's place as A Son who needs to protect his mother. It all comes Full Circle.


(I have more about he The Vulture symbolism connecting Pince and Snape after a bit.)


__________________
"He that wrestles with us strengthens our nerves, and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper." — Edmund Burke
“But the big ones, the Dumbledore storyline, the Snape storyline were always there because you — the series is built around those.” -J.K. Rowling

Last edited by Bscorp; July 10th, 2007 at 4:46 pm. Reason: to clarify the "nose issue."
  #4  
Old May 17th, 2007, 10:32 pm
Lisa_Turpin's Avatar
Lisa_Turpin  Female.gif Lisa_Turpin is offline
Deslumbrante
 
Joined: 4193 days
Location: Ravenclaw Tower
Age: 30
Posts: 751
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

While this idea is very well thought out and explained, I do not feel that this would be a crucial part of DH. Harry has too much to do without throwing in a whole minor character subplot/background story.

Kudos to you for working this out though. I'm quite impressed with the amount of effort you have put into this theory!


__________________


Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix.
  #5  
Old May 17th, 2007, 10:32 pm
snapegirl's Avatar
snapegirl  Female.gif snapegirl is offline
Dr Mrs The Monarch
 
Joined: 4684 days
Location: Spinner's End
Age: 41
Posts: 1,861
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Wow, great research, Bscorp. It was the anagram that sold me to the idea as well. The other idea that Eileen went to school with Tom Riddle and maybe knew him is very interesting to me. Right now, I only have time to skim through your posts, but I will read it all when I get the chance.


  #6  
Old May 17th, 2007, 10:50 pm
YellowPoofBall's Avatar
YellowPoofBall  Undisclosed.gif YellowPoofBall is offline
Fifth Year
 
Joined: 4055 days
Posts: 905
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
“Despoiled!” she hissed. “Desecrated! Befouled!”
I was waiting for you to post that part. That's the most telling (and funniest) part that sticks out to me. Does the part before this mean that it's likely that Madam Eileen knew Snape had nicknamed himself "Half-Blood Prince?"


__________________
Boioioioioioinggggg
  #7  
Old May 17th, 2007, 11:03 pm
toonmili's Avatar
toonmili  Female.gif toonmili is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 4104 days
Location: Trinidad and Tobago
Posts: 486
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Well I agree with the theory now. So I'm assuming that Petunia will tell Harry that Lily and Snape were friends at one point but I think It will be Irma that will drive home the idea that Snape was in love with lily. I realy can't imagine Snape saying "I loved your mother," nor can I imagine him talking about how deep the love was (if such love exsisted.) So there's need for someone to clarify that.

Also I that she knew Voldemort. I aslos think she may not be completely right in the head, this would have to do with Voldemort.

We find out why she allowed herslef to be abused by a muggle and the effect it had on Snape.

This story linbe can explain alot of the loose ends without there being too much words. If she can have one long conversation with Harry that would take up about a chapter we can solve a lot of things. This is because most of the unanswered questions revolve around Snape and as his mother, she would be able to answer them.


__________________
I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS:


DO YOU JUST LOVE LUPIN AND TONKS?
DO YOU THINK THAT THEY WILL BREAK UP?
ARE YOU A SNAPE FAN?



IF YOU ANSWERED YES TO THESE QUESTIONS, CHANCES ARE YOU WILL LOVE MY FAN FICTION CALLED THE BOARDING HOUSE.

READ IT HERE.
  #8  
Old May 17th, 2007, 11:07 pm
Bscorp's Avatar
Bscorp  Undisclosed.gif Bscorp is offline
Seventh Year
 
Joined: 4084 days
Posts: 1,502
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

But wait.. there's more!
The Vulture and The Phoenix: Etymology with Eileen and Irma.

“Eileen” is an Irish name derives from Aveline or the Latin word for bird “Avis.” Eileen can also be derived from Helen- though this may not be as common. Pam2002 makes the connection to Helena the patron saint of converts.

Quote:
“St. Helena, mother of Constantine the Great, is the patron saint of converts, difficult marriages and divorced people, as well as empresses.36 (…)Snape could be considered a convert, as he switched sides; it seems apparent after Order of the Phoenix that Eileen’s marriage to Tobias was no picnic; and Eileen herself was a Prince which corresponds to the royal connotations. St. Helena is almost always represented in art wearing a crown and/or a cross because she was famous for going to Palestine in search of the True Cross of Jesus, which she supposedly helped find.38 In Half-Blood Prince, in the only photo Hermione finds of Eileen, she is described as “simultaneously cross and sullen.” Link here
We get little actual canon about Eileen Prince so we should look at the exact words used to describe her closely. What we do know is that Hermione found her picture in the library, where she is seen as appearing "both sullen and cross.” In Snape’s Worst Memory she is seen “cowering.”

Sullen: is derived from Middle English (in the sullens) [solitary, averse to company, and (unusual from Anglo-Norman French sulein, from sol ‘sole.’ -alone. noun ( the sullens) archaic -a sulky or depressed mood. It basically means lonely and sad. But poetically could be a kind of sun-less deposition.

Cross: as and adjective means “annoyed.” As a noun it can also be a mark, or an animal or plant resulting from crossbreeding; a hybrid: The Cross, Also called crux. As a verb it means to oppose or block one’s path.

Cowering: is also interesting as though it is define as to “crouch down in fear” it is derived from from Middle Low German k?ren ‘lie in wait,’

We also know that Eileen was a “Gobstones” champ. Gobstones is a game of strategy where the stones spit a nasty ink at their opponent when they lose a point. This is a nice image for the mother of a man who is spiteful towards his opponents and spits when he is angry. Gob is also derived from the Scottish word for “beak.” It also continues Eileen’s association with a bird and calls back to Irma and Snape’s "beaklike" nose.

“Irma” is derived from the old Saxon "strong," or "whole" The basic meaning of "severed" is to cut , break off, separate or forcibly divide from something once "whole." Therefore, Irma the "Whole" compliments the "Severed" entity, of her son.

“Irm” can also be used as a prefix for other combinations of names such as “irm-aleen,” ex: Irm -a- Eileen (or Irm- a Prince?) "Irma" is also correlated to the Germanic God “Irmin” (derived from Odin) based on the name “Irminsul” and the tribal name Herminones. That’s right, The Hermiones cult worships in the temple of Irmin much like Hermione – well hangs out in the library– a lot. ( I credit Pam2002 for pointing out this discovery.) Snape and Irma both have character stories that borrow from Irma/Odin

It makes sense to me that so much of Irma/Eileen can be found in supplementary texts. One must do a little research to come op with the connections between these two characters. In order to get behind, the “whole story” of Snape and P(r)ince, one must step out of the story itself and find some extra meaning. In the library is where Hermione found Eileen’s picture and I suspect – that is where Eileen/Irma has been hiding all along.

So let’s go to Rowling’s library. Available in the boxed set with “Quidditch Through the Ages” is also “Fantastic Beasts and where to find them.” In this volume Rowling provides her own catalog of the mythical creatures she’s borrowed from established archetypes, legends and myths embellished on for the Potterverse, as well as a few she’s made up for herself. Qtta and TBa***T compliment each other- Whereas “Quidditch…” had dire forewarning from Irma Pince warning against damage to this library’s book. “Fantastic Beasts…” has throughout it humorous scribbles and notes in the “handwriting” of Harry and Ron. QttA is alos a book that’s been written in.

One of the names that Rowling appears in this volume is the “The Augury.” This is not the name of any known mythical creature. I suspect she has borrowed the idea from the archetype called “the Rain Bird (summarized in a similarly titled “Fantastic Zoology and Imaginary Beings” here.) Rowling renamed this bird made it Irish and modified the archetype to become a type of Phoenix. The name is derived from the word “Augury” which is a priest or priestess who in Druid rituals folklore would use (among other things) the flight patterns of birds, or their dissected entrails to foretell the future. The Augurey Phoenix takes after this concept of divination.

Quote:
Augurey:
(also known as Irish Phoenix) Described as looking like a small and underfed vulture, the Augurey is greenish black in colour. It lives in a tear shaped nest that is usually found in a bramble and thorn patch. It usually only leaves its nest in heavy rain to feed. Augureys were once thought to foretell death with their low wailing cry (more than one wizard has suffered a heart attack when passing a bush and hearing an unseen Augurey wail). In recent times it has been revealed that Augureys cries usually foretell bad weather and have since been used as household pets, although their almost continuous wailing during the winter months can be hard to bear. An Augurey's feathers cannot be used for quills as they have the uncanny ability to repel ink.
Augureys are found in Britain and Ireland and sometimes Northern Europe.
On the one hand the Augurey is described as Vulture- which should be a fierce and protective symbol on the other is sounds rather like a sad, sullen, and shy Phoenix who might "Cowers" from people, doesn't it? The Augury is wonderful postmodern creation of contradictory symbolism.

Irma Pince is the only character who is described as “an underfed vulture” and she too is extremely “repelled by ink.” She is never seen outside the library or in the light of day until the Death of someone very important -Dumbledore being the Great father figure of this series. At he funeral while Harry notes how everyone is appearing their best dressed, Pince is in complete hiding under a “thick black veil that fell to her knees (640)”

Eileen Prince was seen as “sullen” and by definition of the word- “shy”. She in unlike Pince in that she appears to “cower.” However, If Eileen “died” and came back she would be a kind Irish Phoenix and the Augury could be the cross between them both, a direct symbol of someone who might have been sullen in her youth crossing over to be reborn as the strong and “vulture” like Madame Pince.


Prince and Pharoah: The association of Snape with the Vulture Mother Symbolism.

The image of Snape and Vultures is reaffirmed twice in Prisoner of Azkaban, with the “BoggartSnape” and the Christmas Dinner. . The vision of Snape with Vulture hat is a direct metaphor for the pharaoh- foretelling his revelation that he is the “The Prince.”

I believe these two incidents also both tie into the definition of “Transubstantial Transfiguration” and the correlation of Ancestry, Death, Rebirth, and Transformation.

In Egyptian mythology, Vultures were considered to be symbolic of the The Mother as a fierce protector of children. Nekhbet & Wadjet were twin Vulture goddesses assigned to upper and lower Egypt depicted as a woman wearing the crown of Upper Egypt or the vulture headdress, a woman with the head of a vulture, as a full snake or as a full vulture with the White Crown on her head,

For this reason, Pharaohs were often depicted with Headdresses that had both the Vulture and the Snake. The images of these pharaohs often had Vultures perched on their heads. Snape as a “Prince” and head of the Slytherine house, wearing a Vulture on his head ties into this symbol perfectly.

POA: The Boggart in the Wardrobe.

I would like to break this scene down to explain all the connotations it offers, it is clear to me now that Lupin :
1.) Knew exactly what Neville's grandmother looks like and
2.) Suggested to Neville that he envision Snape turned in those precise clothes for that reason.
3.)Rowling wanted to make a connection to Snape and a feared Mother ancestor.

The scene starts of with Lupin leading his students to the Staff room where they see Professor Snape alone. He has assumed a role of guardian here because Snape has better things to do then hang out in the staffroom alone, so I presume he is in there to guard the Boggart. He does not trust Lupin and he is not leaving a Boggart alone and unwatched. Snape exits upon Lupin's arrival saying "Leave the door Open Lupin, I do not want to witness this." (Thus he excuses himself- He keeps anyone from seeing his own Boggart.) Before Snape leaves, he single's out Longbottom for an insult.

"Possibly no one has warned you Lupin, but this class contains Neville Longbottom. I would advise you not to entrust him with anything difficult. Not unless Hermione Granger is hissing instruction in his ear."
Like all of Snape's comments, his words are hurtful but true. Neville did rely on Granger earlier that day in Potions, but with a Boggart, Neville would need to conquer the fear himself - or it won't work. A Boggart is not a predictable formula that can be “hissed” in your ear, but a personal demon. No one can conquer it but one’s self.

Snape made a point and Lupin kindly retorts to Snape that Longbottom is indeed first in line for the lesson. Not surprisingly, Longbottom's Boggart is Professor Snape. Lupin may not have known this ahead of time but he knew exactly what to do about it. Lupin says,
"Professor Snape...hmmm... Neville, I believe you live with your grandmother?"
Neville says Nervously, "Er– yes– But I don't want the Boggart to turn into her either!"(laughter.)
Then Lupin says to Neville, "I wonder, could you tell us what sort of clothes your grandmother usually wears?"

Now, by adding the word "usually" it is apparent that Lupin knows that Neville’s Grandmother has a "usual" look (a quiddity.) We also see that Lupin even knew and in fact “prompted” Neville about the handbag.
Neville looked startled, but said, "Well... always the same hat. A tall one with a stuffed vulture on top. And a long dress.... green, normally...and sometimes a fox-fur scarf."
"And a hand bag?" prompted Lupin
"a big red one," said Neville.
Lupin then gives his instructions to Neville on how to "force Professor Boggart Snape into that Vulture topped hat, Green dress, and fox-fur scarf." This results is a highly amusing scene. Lupin gets back at Snape for Neville. The class laughs at Vulture Hat Snape Boggart for a moment and then they take turns.

But…This is where it gets interesting... by paying closer attention to the next few of Boggart forms reveals something more.

The very next student Parvati turns the Vulture Hat Snape into an Egyptian Mummy. Seamus steps Forward and the Egyptian Mummy becomes a Banshee who "opened her mouth and an unearthly sound filled the room, a long, wailing shriek...that set Harry’s hair on end" Then the Boggart gets confused for a bit, it even takes the shape of (A severed creeping hand -Back to the Hand of Glory?) Before Ron steps up and the Boggart turns into a Spider (Snape's animagus?) that "Riddikulus" rolls over. Lupin's Full Moon appears, which he turns into a cockroach, before he calls out, "Neville! Finish him off!" and the class ends up with Snape Boggart in that green dress being blown to pieces by Neville's genuine laughter. (Yay Neville!)

I don't speculate that anything after Professor Boggart Snape was Lupin's intent, but I do think Lupin coached Neville's Boggart Snape with a precise look. In doing so Rowling used this image and the succession of Boggart images to set up chain of Symbols connecting Ancestry, Death, transfiguration and the Afterlife.

1) Gran/Snape wearing The Vulture hat associates Snape with a feared maternal ancestor and an Egyptian symbol for Protector and Guardian Mother of the Pharaoh.
2) Confirming this symbolism for me is the very next Boggart which provides the perfect pun- a scary Egyptian "Mummy."
3) After that we see a Banshee, The banshee is from the term Bean Sidhe. This is Irish Ancestral Spirit that is takes the form of female spirit. She is allowed to live in this world from the Otherworld. Her wailing cry foretold a Death in the family of those that heard it. If several banshees cry together it foretells the death of a Holy Person.

This is a succession of maternal puns and feared but sacred symbols. The transformations began and end with Neville’s “Grandmother-Snape”

POA: The Christmas Cracker

In the chapter titled, "The Firebolt" it's the Christmas Dinner- there are 12 guests at the table (until Trelawney shows up.) Dumbledore and Snape share a “Cracker”- the toy explodes into a Vulture Hat. Harry and Ron smile and think of the BoggartSnape. Snape demurs and passes the hat to Dumbledore who gladly switches it for his own. This image reaffirms the connection of Snape to a Vulture Hat for the second time.

Like the BoggartSnape scene, this moment at the Christmas feast could also be interpreted on a number of levels. On one level, some people have interpreted this scene in accordance with the Biblical story of Judas. Calling to mind the Last Supper when Jesus shared bread with Judas while knowing it would be Judas to betray him and speculating that the Dumbledore sharing this cracker with Snape at Christmas and the dinner of 12- to foreshadow Snape's Betrayal of Dumbledore.

If the “cracker” was symbolic of the “body and blood” of Christ (much like a wafer in communion) - this scene could refer to the “Transubstantiation” of the body of Christ in to bread and wine. Which again calls to mind Dumbldore’s mentioning of “Theories of Transubstantial Transfiguration.”

On another level, we see Snape again associated with the Vulture Headdress as a direct symbol of an Egyptian Mother Goddess Protector. This overlaid with the symbol of Transubstantiation makes this a multilayered symbol of spiritual "transfiguration."

Ok I think that's it for now I will cut off here, for other's speculation.


__________________
"He that wrestles with us strengthens our nerves, and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper." — Edmund Burke
“But the big ones, the Dumbledore storyline, the Snape storyline were always there because you — the series is built around those.” -J.K. Rowling

Last edited by Bscorp; May 22nd, 2007 at 11:25 pm.
  #9  
Old May 17th, 2007, 11:12 pm
Shannah  Undisclosed.gif Shannah is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4690 days
Posts: 82
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

When she yells at Harry about the written in book, that always reminds me of the picture of Sirius Black's mom at 12 grimmuld place. I agree with the theory that Irma Pince is Snape's mom, I wonder if she is related to the Blacks.


  #10  
Old May 17th, 2007, 11:16 pm
Bscorp's Avatar
Bscorp  Undisclosed.gif Bscorp is offline
Seventh Year
 
Joined: 4084 days
Posts: 1,502
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannah View Post
When she yells at Harry about the written in book, that always reminds me of the picture of Sirius Black's mom at 12 grimmuld place. I agree with the theory that Irma Pince is Snape's mom, I wonder if she is related to the Blacks.
I suppose it's a possibility, but as I wrote- I think the repetition is more to illustrate a metaphor of Pince reacting to the book like a deranged Mother- to her family name.

By Snape taking his mother’s name, “The Prince’s” Potions book becomes a symbol of knowledge and a kind of power passed down from Mother to Son (if not literally lent to him by his mother.) Therefore the book is also a kind of family heirloom, or legacy that Harry is borrowing. Yet when Harry decides to hide the identity of the book by using taking off the old cover and “reparo-ing” on a new one. He denies that history. He switches the cover but keeps the content, and is effect claiming it as his own. He claims the Prince’s accomplishments, and refuses to give it back -twice. Then -calling back to incident with QttA- Harry calls it “my book!” and by using this book and The Prince’s alterations to better his position in Potions class.


__________________
"He that wrestles with us strengthens our nerves, and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper." — Edmund Burke
“But the big ones, the Dumbledore storyline, the Snape storyline were always there because you — the series is built around those.” -J.K. Rowling

Last edited by Bscorp; May 18th, 2007 at 3:10 pm.
  #11  
Old May 18th, 2007, 12:41 am
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5407 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 57
Posts: 9,778
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Bscorp: Bravo! Bravo! You have taken this theory to a whole new level, and I am totally excited about this - well done!

That is a major piece of research - wow!

I want to jump in with some ideas, and I'll warn you this is a bit longer than I usually write, but I'm obsessed, so hey, it happens:

First I'll repost my graphic of Snape and Pince compared to the Vulture Crowns of Egypt:


This ties in to a theory I wrote about in the essay fanbook The Plot Thickens. I wrote about Neville's Gran and her vulture hat, comparing her to the Mother Goddesses of Egypt such as Mut and Nekhbet, who rule childbirth and protect mothers and babies. I am no Egyptian scholar at all, but stumbled across the connection doing a Google search late one night. There is no other society that worshipped vultures and actually wore their bodies as crowns!!!

I also analyzed Snape in the Boggart scene, but left out one important person - Madame Pince, the "underfed vulture." Someone pointed this out to me after the book was published, and I immediately realized that she is just another "Mother Goddess" type who "Guards" the Library.

Here are some screencaps of Irma Pince in the Library in CoS:





And of course with Snape at the Year End feast. Why is she there in the movie?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
By Snape taking his mother’s name, “The Prince’s” Potions book becomes a symbol of knowledge and a kind of power passed down from Mother to Son (if not literally lent to him by his mother.) Therefore the book is also a kind of family heirloom, or legacy that Harry is borrowing. Yet when Harry decides to hide the identity of the book by using taking off the old cover and “reparo-ing” on a new one. He denies that history. He switches the cover but keeps the content, and is effect claiming it as his own. He claims the Prince’s accomplishments, and refuses to give it back -twice. Then -calling back to incident with QttA- Harry calls it “my book!” and by using this book and The Prince’s alterations to better his position in Potions class.
It occurred to me while reading this about Harry using the book and calling it his own, that Harry is sort of following his own father's name - "James" - which means "The Supplanter." A supplanter is someone who takes someone else's place by force:

http://www.allwords.com/word-supplanter.html

supplanted, supplanting
1. To take the place of someone, often by force or unfair means.
Thesaurus: supersede, replace, take over for, take over from, usurp, displace, unseat, topple, overthrow.
Derivative: supplantation - noun
Derivative: supplanter - noun

Etymology: 13c: from Latin supplantare to trip up, from planta sole of the foot.

Remember when Lily calls James a "toe rag"? And of course, James is doing the magical equivalent of "tripping" Snape - "Petrificus Totalis." You could call it "Pe-trip-icus." :evil;

There have been theories that James somehow stole Snape's potions book, and that is how he found out the spells. That's probably for another thread, though, however it is curious that Pince reacts to the talk of the Prince's book!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
Sullen: is derived from Middle English (in the sullens) [solitary, averse to company, and (unusual from Anglo-Norman French sulein, from sol ‘sole.’ -alone. noun ( the sullens) archaic -a sulky or depressed mood. It basically means lonely and sad. But poetically could be a kind of sun-less deposition.
There is also a "a sullen-faced Slytherin fifth year" at the table with them during the Christmas Dinner scene just before the vulture hat switch. Could that be Pince in another disguise? Filch is also there dressed in a suit!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
“Irma” is derived from the old Saxon "strong, whole" “Irm” can be used as a prefix for other combinations of names such as “irm-aleen,” (Irm -a- Eileen or Irm- a Prince? ) Irma is also correlated to the Germanic God “Irmin” (derived from Odin) based on the name “Irminsul” and the tribal name Herminones. That’s right, The Hermiones cult worships in the temple of Irmin much like Hermione – well hangs out in the library– a lot. ( I credit Pam2002 for pointing out this discovery.)
This is just amazing - I've never been aware of the god "Irmin."

However, let me suggest another direction I've researched before . . . just to think about, because I like your theory too.

JKR has written about the "Family Mustelidae" or Weasel family of animals on her Official site. That family includes badgers, otters, weasels, ferrets, and ~ Ermines (also known as Stoats).

An "Ermine" in Heraldry is a sign of Royalty. It is shown either by the animal itself or black dots on white.

The French word for Ermine-Weasel is "Ermione," which is one letter from Hermione. And of course, we know Hermione is connected by love to the Weasley family.

"Irmin" or "Irma" just seems like a variation of Ermine!

Anyway, you can see an Ermine Cross on the Prince Family Shield, and an Ermine Shield on the Snape Family Crest.



__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon

Last edited by silver ink pot; May 18th, 2007 at 12:45 am.
  #12  
Old May 18th, 2007, 3:10 am
hwyla  Female.gif hwyla is offline
Registered Animagus
 
Joined: 4812 days
Location: Sev's Wine Cellar
Age: 59
Posts: 4,552
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Great job getting this all together!

Just wanted to add a few to what you have already posted.

Quote:
OOP: Repetition of dialog and mannerisms;

…a hand had closed tight over his upper arm, closed with a pincer like grip…“Get out, get out, I don’t want to see you in this office ever again!” And as Harry hurtled toward the door, a jar of dead cockroaches exploded “over his head“ (p 650.)
Note the use of PINCER, not Pincher-like - an equally valid and similar word - but JKR specifically chose a version of Pince.

And:

Quote:
They waited and a moment later the vulturelike countenance of madam Pince appear around the corner, her sunken cheeks, her skin like parchment, and her long hooked nose illuminates unflatteringly by the lamp she was carrying.
and the similarity to the description of Snape walking down to the Hogwarts gates to let Harry enter in HBP. Unfortunately, I don't have the book with me at the moment, however it is specific that his nose is lit from below by the light he is carrying.

Any idea whether Diogenes has something to do with this? He's the one who was 'supposed' to have wandered with a torch or lantern looking for an 'honest' man. Considering Snape's legilimency and his insistence on trying to get Harry to tell the truth. Possibly also a connection to the Hermit Tarot card - which I believe has to do with 'learning'?

Also - I saw the bit about banshees and/or auguries, but I think you should also copy over the bit where you connected the wailing dragon egg on the stairs. As I said on the old thread, dragons seem to be related to 'protection', but the eggs of the GoF task are particularly associated with protective mothers. And who does it end up attracting? Snape - where we end up with the pj party on the stairs with fakeMoody and invisibleHarry.


__________________
When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.
  #13  
Old May 18th, 2007, 3:47 am
SusanBones's Avatar
SusanBones  Female.gif SusanBones is offline
Inconceivable!
 
Joined: 4924 days
Location: in a galaxy far, far away
Posts: 4,090
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Now that Snape has left the school, will Madam Pince continue as the librarian? Will she be in contact with Snape in DH?


  #14  
Old May 18th, 2007, 4:15 am
Frankie62446  Female.gif Frankie62446 is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4713 days
Location: Oz
Age: 28
Posts: 90
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Hey - I'm impressed.

I opened this expecting to see some ridiculous half-baked theory.. but this is good! I like it very much, it actually seems plausible.

Now we must ask ourselves: Is there any significance to the librarian being Snapes mom?


__________________

"Swimming is the only sport that requires its athletes to rehab an injury while continuing to train,
lest they lose their tenuously held competitive advantages. Which explain why swimmers are zany. And by zany, we mean absolutely nuts." -ESPN Magazine

No I can't hang out with you July 21, 2007... HOW DARE YOU ASK?!

  #15  
Old May 18th, 2007, 4:43 am
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5407 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 57
Posts: 9,778
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla View Post
Note the use of PINCER, not Pincher-like - an equally valid and similar word - but JKR specifically chose a version of Pince.
Excellent point!

"Pincer" is the british spelling of "pinch"

pincers
1338, from O.Fr. pinecure "pincers," from pincier "to pinch" (see pinch).
pince-nez
folding eyeglasses, 1876, from Fr., lit. "pinch-nose," from pincer "to pinch" + nez "nose."

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla View Post
Quote:
They waited and a moment later the vulturelike countenance of madam Pince appear around the corner, her sunken cheeks, her skin like parchment, and her long hooked nose illuminates unflatteringly by the lamp she was carrying.
and the similarity to the description of Snape walking down to the Hogwarts gates to let Harry enter in HBP. Unfortunately, I don't have the book with me at the moment, however it is specific that his nose is lit from below by the light he is carrying.
Hwyla: Here it is:

HBP

A lantern was bobbing at the distant foot of the castle. Harry was so pleased to see it he felt he could endure even Filch's wheezy criticisms of his tardiness and his rants about how his timekeeping would improve with the regular application of thumbscrews. It was not until the glowing yellow light was ten feet away from them, and Harry pulled off his invisibility cloak so that he could be seen, that he recognized, with a rush of pure loathing, the uplit hooked nose and long, black, greasy hair of Severus Snape.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie62446 View Post
Now we must ask ourselves: Is there any significance to the librarian being Snapes mom?
Well, he says "Silence!" alot.


__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon
  #16  
Old May 18th, 2007, 4:49 am
Frankie62446  Female.gif Frankie62446 is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4713 days
Location: Oz
Age: 28
Posts: 90
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Well, he says "Silence!" alot.
Yes... I see what you're saying! We all just have to walk around being very, very quiet... get our hair greasy... yell at innocent bystanders, children, puppies, etc... then maybe inspiration will hit us!


__________________

"Swimming is the only sport that requires its athletes to rehab an injury while continuing to train,
lest they lose their tenuously held competitive advantages. Which explain why swimmers are zany. And by zany, we mean absolutely nuts." -ESPN Magazine

No I can't hang out with you July 21, 2007... HOW DARE YOU ASK?!

  #17  
Old May 18th, 2007, 5:59 am
Bscorp's Avatar
Bscorp  Undisclosed.gif Bscorp is offline
Seventh Year
 
Joined: 4084 days
Posts: 1,502
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie62446 View Post
Yes... I see what you're saying! We all just have to walk around being very, very quiet... get our hair greasy... yell at innocent bystanders, children, puppies, etc... then maybe inspiration will hit us!
Funny you should mention this...silence…. because actually have you read Emerald's "Celtic Conundrum" essay about the immram, echtra, and their connections to the bean Sidhe? I will quote it– let me get to it the long way.

First, here is another quote about the Egyptians and Vultures which I think elaborates on Snape and Pince scenes following closely together and with Pince’s reaction to the book that really rounds out the vulture as Mother guardian metaphor.
In Southern Africa, the name for an Egyptian vulture is synonymous with the term applied to lovers, for vultures like pigeons are always seen in pairs. Thus mother and child remain closely bonded together. Pairing, bonding, protecting, loving are essential attributes associated with a vulture. Because of its immense size and power and its ability to sore high up in the sky, the vulture is considered to be nearer to God who is believed to reside above the sky. Thus the qualities of a vulture are associated with Godliness. On the other hand the wide wingspan of a vulture may be seen as all encompassing and providing a protective cover to its infants. The vulture when carrying out its role as a mother and giving protection to its infants may exhibit a forceful nature whilst defending her young. All these qualities inspired the imagination of the Ancient Egyptians. They adopted what seemed to them at the time to be motherly qualities, the qualities of protecting and nurturing their young. (source here.)” http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kun...m/nekhbet.html
---
Speculation: Severus and the Banshees

Snape’s relationship to his Mother- if she is Irma in the library, might also be hinted at in his behavior towards hearing a Woman’s “wailing.” and the metaphor of The Augurey. Snape has been shown to have an urgent reaction to a “wailing” kind more than once. There are only two scenes that I can find where a Woman’s scream is heard in the castle and Snape reacts urgently to both of them.

GOF: “The Egg and The Eye,” In this chapter can see a few metaphors going on that might hint at Snape’s bond with his Mother.

The egg was taken from a very protective Mother Dragon. It holds a clue to the underwater world where Harry must saved a loved one. (it's been noted elsewhere that underwater is sometimes scene as symbolic of the underworld.) Harry has tried many ways to get the clue, he throws it, pounds on it etc. However whenever the egg opens, it screeches in a way that Seamus had described as sounding “like a banshee.” It's significant that above water he hears a banshee but below water- in the symbolic Otherworld - he hears a song(I will come back to why later.)

Knowing the banshee is a protector maternal spirit, this Egg could be another mother/son metaphor of the banshee’s voice wailing in reaction to or protection of the “exposed” secret –of the son.

After Harry finally deciphers the underwater clue, on the way back Harry is stuck between the 3rd and 4th floors and he drops the egg. Note: It sounds like a banshee and he is near the library. So who shows up of course? Filch then Snape.
Filch stopped a few steps below Harry and turned. At the foot of the stairs stood the only person who could make Harry's situation worse: Snape. He was wearing a long gray nightshirt and he looked livid.
"Its Peeves, Professor," Filch whispered malevolently. "He threw this egg down the stairs."
Snape climbed up the stairs quickly and stopped beside Filch. Harry gritted his teeth, convinced his loudly thumping heart would give him away at any second. . . .
"Peeves?" said Snape softly, staring at the egg in Filch's hands. "But Peeves couldn't get into my office. . . ."
"This egg was in your office. Professor?"
"Of course not," Snape snapped. "I heard banging and wailing -"
"Yes, Professor, that was the egg -"
"- I was coming to investigate -"
"- Peeves threw it. Professor -"
"- and when I passed my office, I saw that the torches were lit and a cupboard door was ajar! Somebody has been searching it!"
But Peeves couldn't -"
"I know he couldn't, Filch!" Snape snapped again. "I seal my office with a spell none but a wizard could break!" Snape looked up the stairs, straight through Harry, and then down into the corridor below. "I want you to come and help me search for the intruder, Filch."
Filch is a character who's always appears up whenever there's hijinks in the hallways, which explains why he's there first on the scene after Harry drops the Egg. But if Filch is some kind of watchman for P(r)ince, that would explain why in GOF he appeared when "wailing" is heard and naturally expected Snape to appear the same reason saying without prompt, "Its Peeves, Professor,"

1)Snape doubts "Peeves?" as an explanation, so he wasn't thinking that before hand...
2) No one else arrives, but Snape hears “banging and wailing” from all the way in the dungeons and apparently bolted all the way to the third/fourth floor landing.
3) Snape insists that Filch Come back with him to help him investigate his office- until moody shows up then he doesn’t want it spoken of and seems to make a connection between the wailing and the office intrusion.

This follows the Flich Factor idea that Snape relies on Filch for things that are personal to him- in this case and intrusion has been made on his office and his personal stores. He demands Filch’s assistance but tells Filch to “Shut UP!” about it in front of "Moody".

So Filch is stirred and Snape arrives on the scene quite flustered- having not even taken the time to put on a robe. Snape is again somewhat “exposed,” wearing only a nightshirt. He had already seen that his office had been broken into so he upset and has been intruded upon (recalling The Filch bandaging scene and the Pensieve scene) Still, he apparently ran all the way up from the dungeons in a very brief time. Snape wants Filch- and only Filch to help him investigate until Moody arrives and pesters Snape – Snape clams up.

As Barty/Moody begins to antagonize and intimidate Snape, the scene that ensues has both Snape and Harry half dressed and vulnerable– stuck between the 3rd and 4th floors. I suspect Barty Crouch/Moody is the Eye and Snape as the concerned- son-in hiding- is the Egg. Maybe Snape doesn’t want to expose his secret to Barty’s Eye either.

OOP: "Seen and Unforeseen”

In GOF, Two things were “Broken” into –the egg, and Snape’s office. Here in OOP, Snape is "breaking into" Harry's Mind and Harry breaks into Snape’s mind. For a brief glimpse Harry sees Snape’s childhood and the vision we have of Eileen Prince cowering. Later, this same lesson is cut short by the sound of a Woman screaming- overhead. Snape is again- alarmed by the sound of a wailing. He looks towards the ceiling, he murmurs "what the-" draws his wand, and asks "did you see anything unusual on your way down here Potter?" then exits quickly. The interesting thing is that neither Snape, nor the omnipresent Filch are seen in the next scene with Trelawny.

I see this as kind of an inversion of the similar urgent reaction from GOF:
1) Snape reacts with similar alarm he hears “a woman screamed” and he disappears quickly– but–
2) Snape does not go to Trelawny's side-
3)Filch –who usually appears at any sign of chaos- doesn’t either.

Which tells me they may have both been preoccupied. So where did they go? Maybe they both went towards the library as they did in GOF. If the Pince/Prince connection is true, I suspect they both went to the library to check on Mme Pince, which would explain the real reason Snape Bolted up towards the library in GOF in the first place.

These two scene show Snape tends to Jump and Run when he hears a woman scream. Both have a title and context suggesting something that is "seeing", and something secret that is "hidden," and further assertion the themes of intrusion of Harry on Snape in COS (Snape & Filch) and HBP (SWM in the Pensieve.) Both of the female screams– the banshee’s wail in GOF, and Trelawny’s scream in OOP –could be considered a inline with an Augury’s wail- that of someone or something who is only heard “foretelling death.”


Further speculation, What will Mme Pince Help with?

People have asked how we can apply Irma/Eileen to Harry’s benefit in Deathly Hallows.
I can think of many ways she can help move the story forward. She might be used to provide the “Whole” story of how Snape came into the Light and help Harry accept Draco back to their side. She might have some knowledge of A Horcrux- or at least a book on Horcruxes! Any number of secrets could be revealed about Snape. Could his Patronus. - whom Rowling wouldn’t tell us because it would give too much away, H take the form of a vulture or be an Augury version of a Phoenix? Could she explain his history with Lilly revealing that he was “that awful boy” who might have been speaking to her about the Dementors? Will this information help the students fight the Dementor Army? Deathly Hallows is not going to be about Snape and something tells me that Pince might just keep his secrets good and hidden. But …

We might compare MMe Pince to the High Empress Card in Tarot.

(story here)The Fool meets her early on in his journey. She is kind of a spiritual librarian standing in front of a mysterious veil, she knows all about the fool but reveals little information- she gives him scrolls to help his decide his path and tells him We'll meet again...when you're ready to travel the most secret path of all." *** fool returns to the Veil at the end of the deck– after the (Lightening struck )Tower Card and just before he goes beyond the veil.

If Harry does need to go beyond the Veil- I have a theory on how Pince might be a help to get him back. This is where I delve into ripe speculation.

This is a quote from an essay I found on Mugglenet. "A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum" http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/...merald01.shtml) An original Editorial by Emerald I highly recommend it as Emerald did an excellent job researching the Myths and Celtic folklore behind the Potter series pertaining to the "Other World" and the "Veil". What I found particularly interesting is the subject of the Sidhe (banshees) and the "Hero" and the idea that The Sidhe are spirits that that help to guide the hero to and from the veil.


Quote:
Despite residing the majority of the time in the Otherworld, ... the Sidhe, ... and the ancestors are believed to regularly visit us here in the world of the living. They do so for numerous reasons, sometimes to render aid or knowledge, sometimes merely to visit. But at times people from the land of the living travel to the Otherworld as well. In Celtic terms, these people are said to be passing beyond... The Veil.
Emerald goes on to discuss the "Immram" In Celtic foklore as one of two kinds of "Heros" that can be allowed to travel past the veil and return from beyond the veil.

Quote:
In most instances, a living human who 'passes beyond The Veil' will not return: it is a euphemism for death. In the realm of Celtic belief, it doesn't have to be. In a few cases, ones usually involving great heroes, the living can return from the Otherworld to continue a normal life with their loved ones, here in the land of the living. Literal self-sacrifice for their cause, as we've feared may happen with Harry, is not necessary. This sacrifice alternative is exactly what I think - and fervently hope - will be the case where Harry is concerned, ....

Such journeys beyond The Veil are primarily of two types, the echtra (plural: echtrai) or adventure quest, and the immram (plural: immrama) or journey quest, the major difference being that the first is generally "undertaken on behalf of others, while the [second] is a more personal quest, often requiring a total spiritual transformation."
Emerald is exploring the idea that Harry may need to go beyond the veil in Deathly Hallows and how he could come back unharmed due to his great sacrifice for betterment of the whole Wizarding world. That would make Harry a hero of the Echtra sort.

If we go with that idea we could speculate that Eileen = Irma Pince could have been someone who supposedly "died" but is still hanging out in the library among her living relative- her only son Severus. She could be a kind of female Immram. Her journey quest would be entirely a "personal quest" and (Yes I will write it again)- Irma Pince is the mentioned with great thanks in Dumbeldore's foreword to "Quidditch Through the Ages" and she is the one to have told Dumbledore to fake his death, and she is one who hexed the book "Transubstantial Transfiguration" to beat him on the head. Again, I don't think this it is a coincidence that this is the book Snape took from Potter citing "library rules" (and leading Harry to discover Filch caring for Snape's wounded leg.)

Again, The word “Transubstantiate” is defined as
" verb [ trans. ] (usu. be transubstantiated) Christian Theology convert (the substance of the Eucharistic elements) into the body and blood of Christ. • formal change the form or substance of (something) into something different. "

I know I’m repeating myself here, but this term gets us around how Eileen could have been living in the library this whole time unnoticed but also the WHY she would be there as well. In Potterverse, "transubstantial transfiguration" might also be a new take on the Immram and required "total spiritual transformation" that Emerald cited. This also fits with the "Helen" form of "Eileen", Helen being the saint of converts and the etymology of "Helen" meaning "light." Eileen would fit for someone who may have cheated death in order to fulfill a personal quest correlating with the idea that her son at some point converted from the Dark side to the Light. Maybe another ancestral spirit- a banshee helped her cross back.

If young Eileen Prince was the cowering woman who never stood up to her abusive husband and allowed her son to get away from her, her name of Eileen and her appearance seems to suggest the shy “Augury or Irish Phoenix.” Maybe when she became her son's Heroine she became an Immram- and thus Irma to rescue her son from whatever peril he was in, (be it Voldemort himself or something Voldemort trapped Snape with- or whatever) Irma Pince is the older Vulture phoenix who we now see as the fierce over protective librarian/guardian in the Hogwarts library.

Now one more thing, which may be silly but humor me, we know that Irma Pince is an anagram of “I’m a Prince” I also have to note how close the word Immram is to the name "Irma." Playing with anagrams again, I can split up Immram into "mm irma" MM being the abbreviated form of "Messieurs" pl. but since Immram usually refers to a male hero, I could invert the concept from a male singular to apply to a female singular by just adding an e "Mme Irma" and we have the abbreviated form of Madame Irma. The makes two ways that madam Irma Pince can be interpreted to Immram Prince

Anagram or not, the concept of Immram and the Hero’s "spiritual transformation" fits in nicely with the theory or Irma as Snape's heroine.

Eileen coming back from the “Otherworld” may not play out in the literal sense, it may be just symbolic appearance from the Potions book, but she has a presence of some kind for sure. Exactly how this tapestry of symbols unravels in context of the story has yet to be seen.


__________________
"He that wrestles with us strengthens our nerves, and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper." — Edmund Burke
“But the big ones, the Dumbledore storyline, the Snape storyline were always there because you — the series is built around those.” -J.K. Rowling

Last edited by Bscorp; May 18th, 2007 at 11:31 pm.
  #18  
Old May 18th, 2007, 6:08 am
TurnThePage  Male.gif TurnThePage is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4120 days
Location: New York
Age: 27
Posts: 80
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Wow..you my friend are really smart lol. I like the way to compared the Last Supper to Snape killing DD. I'm not sure we will learn much about Snape's past. His mother may be hiding, I now believe it a lot more after your theory. Great job.


__________________
As you are now, we once were, as we are now, you may become
  #19  
Old May 18th, 2007, 6:21 am
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5407 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 57
Posts: 9,778
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Fascinating stuff about Snape's reaction to women screaming, which is a parallel to Harry in PoA who passes out when he hears his mother screaming, and Sirius Black who wants to "cover up" his own mother's tirade with the curtains.

Of course, Harry's mother is "beyond the veil" and Snape's mother may possibly be "under a veil."

The Anagrams are all fun to think about:


IRMA PINCE
I'M A PRINCE
I PRINCE MA
I MA PRINCE

http://wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram...ram=IRMA+PINCE

I'M A PINCER
PRINCE AIM

Then for MADAME PINCE:

DE MAMA PINCE
MAMA END EPIC
NEED MAMA PIC


__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon
  #20  
Old May 18th, 2007, 2:31 pm
hwyla  Female.gif hwyla is offline
Registered Animagus
 
Joined: 4812 days
Location: Sev's Wine Cellar
Age: 59
Posts: 4,552
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

And of course, Snape is also affected by another woman's wailing - Narcissa's tears at SpinnersEnd. Yet another example of the protective mother - with another 'dragon' hint connected since Draco is literally named Dragon.

The DragonEgg is one of the strongest dragon clues tied to mothers and protection. Way back with Norbert, we have Hagrid saying how he 'knows his mommy' - referencing himself (a male) as a 'mommy'. We later learn that Hagrid's mother abandoned him, leaving him with only a father. This seems a rather strange upbringing to have Hagrid then calling himself a 'mommy' instead of 'daddy', when 'knows his daddy' works just as well as the mommy comment.

Then the very nature of the DragonEgg task involves mothers trying to protect what they truly believe are their children. So, the eggs is not just 'wailing' but symbolical of protective motherhood as well.

Now do we have any hints or clues as to when Irma was hired? And is she in hiding from Voldy?

Our other wailing women seem to need protection from Voldy. Sybil does, altho' she is apparently unaware of it and she's the wailing woman that interupts the occlumency lessons. And Narcissa is also a wailing woman who seems quite endangered what with Voldy's threat hanging over her (and Draco). And Eileen seems to have been at Hogwarts with Tom (albeit a few years younger).

However, there is still the possibility that the person she needed to hide from was an abusive Tobias - which might have her hiding at Hogwarts even when Snape was a student there (for all we know). I tend to think 'plot-wise' that hiding from Voldy makes more sense and IF Snape feared that Voldy might suspect him (back in VW1) then he would want to hide whomever he thought Voldy might use against him.


__________________
When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.

Last edited by hwyla; May 18th, 2007 at 2:40 pm.
 
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Harry Potter Archives > Divination Studies

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 6:29 pm.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.