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ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.



 
 
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  #21  
Old May 18th, 2007, 4:02 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Bscorp: Bravo! Bravo! You have taken this theory to a whole new level, and I am totally excited about this - well done!
Thank you, though I have to credit all the others who gathered the clues before I did (Pam2002 etc)

And I love this photo!

I’ve stated before that I know it is debatable as to whether or not the movies are considered canon because we don’t always know when and where JK made the decision to include something or not. But this image is definitely an interesting decision on the part of some one. I will go into my Snape-ish question mode again, if Irma Pince is just a trivial character- whose speaking parts in COS were filmed but then cut out of COS- why did they want her at the feast, why did they sit her next to Snape- why not at the other end of the table? Why at the table at all? She’s not a teacher. And why is she dressed so similarly- in all black and feathers- with a similar Snarky look on her face?

And another thing, the fact that Pince appears in the movie COS reminds me of how the book COS was originally called Half Blood Prince. Rowling said extracted the Prince’s plot out of the original plot of COS to give it’s own time toward the end of the series and because it gave too much away. Rowling claims all the appropriate plot lines were removed but there are similar themes. (I wonder if the recipe for poly-juice in the Most Potente Potions book wasn’t originally supposed to come from Snape’s “Advanced Potions Book?”) The Advanced Potions book would be like Snape’s own diary and in the end it revealed an identity of Eileen Prince as his mother.


But unlike this movie still- I’m pretty sure Snape and Pince never cross paths in the books, in fact Madam Pince never seen with anyone, anywhere outside of the library at the very end but Filch at the funeral and she is still “in hiding.” Which makes the “caretaker” connection between Filch and Snape so weighted. (and this picture so …)
As she is described at the funeral – it reminds me of the description of the banshee. The banshee is often described with Long hair that comes down to their feet. And Irma Pince is wear a long dark veil that seems to cover her whole self (I can’t recall the quote.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
[This is just amazing - I've never been aware of the god "Irmin."
Quote:
A Germanic god Irmin based on the name Irminsul and the tribal name Herminones is sometimes postulated as the war god of the Saxons. The Old Norse form of Irmin was Jörmunr and interestingly, just like Yggr, it was one of the names of Odin. "Yggr's horse", Yggdrasil, was the yew or ash tree from which Odin sacrificed himself, and which connected heaven and earth. It appears, thus, that Irminsul may have represented a World tree corresponding to Yggdrasil among the Saxon tribes of Germany.(Wiki link)
Irmin, Yggr, are both other names for the god Odin. The Irmin branch was specific (I believe) to the Hermiones but it all overlaps. I’ve always read Snape's character to have borrowed some from Odin. Odin was the god of Poetry and War and The "Hanged God" who inspired the image behind the Hanged Mad Tarot.

Hermione –who always finds the answer in a book - is the one of the trio who is always “defending” Snape by reminding Harry and Ron how they were mislead about him in the past. She was the one who was assigned to watch for Snape outside of the staffroom door in PS/SS and to watch His office door in HBP.



Last edited by Bscorp; May 18th, 2007 at 4:04 pm.
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  #22  
Old May 18th, 2007, 5:44 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla View Post
Note the use of PINCER, not Pincher-like - an equally valid and similar word - but JKR specifically chose a version of Pince.
Sorry, but "pincher" is not even a word in British English. A good definition of "pincer" is given here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
"Pincer" is the british spelling of "pinch"
I'm not familiar with this use of the word in US English, but in British English they are two quite distinct words and not interchangeable. Pincer is a noun and pinch is a verb or a quantity (ie a pinch of salt - the amount of salt you can pinch between your thumb and forfingers)

I have to say that I am genuinely impressed by the amount of work that Bscorp has put into this theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
I’ve stated before that I know it is debatable as to whether or not the movies are considered canon because we don’t always know when and where JK made the decision to include something or not. But this image is definitely an interesting decision on the part of some one. I will go into my Snape-ish question mode again, if Irma Pince is just a trivial character- whose speaking parts in COS were filmed but then cut out of COS- why did they want her at the feast, why did they sit her next to Snape- why not at the other end of the table? Why at the table at all? She’s not a teacher. And why is she dressed so similarly- in all black and feathers- with a similar Snarky look on her face?
If we are using this photo as a clue, I'd be a bit worried by the fact that Madam Pince looks younger than Snape. Surely Jo would want an older actress if she is actually Snape's mother?


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  #23  
Old May 18th, 2007, 5:48 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Wow, this is a really well thought out theory!!!!

Just to mention...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie62446 View Post
Now we must ask ourselves: Is there any significance to the librarian being Snapes mom?
I think if Irma is actually Eileen, and has been hidden by Dumbledore to protect her, there is a HUGE significance to the entire plot.... THIS explains why Dumbledore trusts Snape implicitly! Dumbledore hid Snapes mother, and gave her the protection of Hogwarts!

Very nicely laid out, Bscorp!!!!!



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Old May 18th, 2007, 5:59 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

My favourite clue is the anagram, but there is the slight problem that it only works in the English version. Unlike the Voldemort anagram, which was reworked in every translation (leading to some rather odd middle names for Tom in some languages), this anagram has not been carried over to the other versions.

For example, in Norwegian Irma Pince is Irma Knipe, and this cannot be anagrammed to any variant of "jeg er en prins". But if the anagram had been an important one, the translator would have been informed, and it would have been a simple matter to use a name that made up that anagram (Knipe is not a real name anyway).


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Last edited by anabel; May 18th, 2007 at 6:03 pm.
  #25  
Old May 18th, 2007, 6:15 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anabel View Post
If we are using this photo as a clue, I'd be a bit worried by the fact that Madam Pince looks younger than Snape. Surely Jo would want an older actress if she is actually Snape's mother?
Yes, this is true and it concerns me in re the Mother angle. Of course Alan Rckman is much older that Snape in the books, but I agree thier apparent similarity in age here doesn't jibe that Pince as a Mom when she is so young next him. But then again movie as canon is debateable.

Unless...we hear the phrase uttered,

"Faking death and going through a good transfiguration takes years off Your face Irma!"

The other option is that Pince is not Snape's Mother, but his SISTER. (I just confess privately to another user, via Owl Post- I could see this angle as well.) This had occurred in the past but now, after staring at that picture for two days.....
In any event I could equally argue the connection using the same evidence I've cited. The metaphors and symbolism all still apply only that they're connected The Mother as a Vulture is a symbol of the The Mother they both share and find protection in. It would appear that Severus and Irma both took their Mother's name at some point in their lives. The "Prince" family name is their point of pride, legacy, etc. This would explain the "nose" without need for transfiguration as well. IF they were both raised under an abusive Father and a "cowering" mother- then they would find protection in each other and that bond would be very very strong.


In the end...I just went with the Mother/Son angle because i think it enhances the Unbreakable Vow and compliments the overall arc of the series of finding Power from the Mother. I like the idea that she came back from "death" in a phoenix metaphor to protect her son. I like that we found out Eileen's name from the Potions book. Snape seems to me- forgive me- but a bit of a Mama's boy who never grew up in some ways. If his Mother was this kind of overseer who couldn't let go of him, well that just works for me to explain a lot of his more childish moments.

I guess we'll see. I could be wrong and I won't feel too shamed if it spins the other way.

At this rate we might have an Irma Pince triumvirate on our hands! Is Snape hiding his Wife, his Mother, or his Sister?


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  #26  
Old May 18th, 2007, 6:16 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anabel View Post
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla
Note the use of PINCER, not Pincher-like - an equally valid and similar word - but JKR specifically chose a version of Pince.
Sorry, but "pincher" is not even a word in British English. A good definition of "pincer" is given here.
It's "pincer" in the American version, also, which is what Hwyla uses, and what I use.

The word "pinch" is in the British Lexicon, I believe, last time I checked. It is from the Old French, but entered the English language in 1066 with the Norman Invasion. "Pinch," as in to "pinch" someone, has been around since the 1400s.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?...earchmode=none
pinch (v.)
c.1230, from O.N.Fr. *pinchier, var. of O.Fr. pincier, possibly from V.L. *punctiare "to pierce" (from L. punctum "point"), and *piccare "to pierce." Meaning "to steal" is from 1656. Sense of "to be stingy" is recorded from early 14c. Noun meaning "critical juncture" (as in baseball pinch hitter, attested from 1912) is from 1489; older than the literal sense of "act of pinching" (1591).

(All of that pre-dates the American Colonies, so "pinch" is a British word.)

I believe the real reason JKR used "Pincer-like Grip" is because the anagram works out to:

PRINCE-LIKE GRIP

That fits this theory because in Quidditch Through the Ages, Dumbledore says he has to "Pry" Irma's hand off the book - she may have a "Prince-Like Grip" also.

Pincer is just an anagram for "Prince," in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
At this rate we might have an Irma Pince triumvirate on our hands! Is Snape hiding his Wife, his Mother, or his Sister?
Nooooooooo! Please, I beg you - no more triumvirates before DH!


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Last edited by silver ink pot; May 18th, 2007 at 6:18 pm.
  #27  
Old May 18th, 2007, 6:25 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anabel View Post
My favourite clue is the anagram, but there is the slight problem that it only works in the English version. Unlike the Voldemort anagram, which was reworked in every translation (leading to some rather odd middle names for Tom in some languages), this anagram has not been carried over to the other versions.

For example, in Norwegian Irma Pince is Irma Knipe, and this cannot be anagrammed to any variant of "jeg er en prins". But if the anagram had been an important one, the translator would have been informed, and it would have been a simple matter to use a name that made up that anagram (Knipe is not a real name anyway).
I don't think of the translations as necessary for all clues in the book. There are a lot of languages out there, since her name "Pince" isn't like a color, or a noun and it relies on the combination of "I am" + "Prince" - I could see where it would be hard to find anagrams in all difference languages. I think one of the mods here pointed out that the translations are necessarily canon- though it helps when they go along.

In the end- the other hints and clues about Irma are much more important to me than just her name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Nooooooooo! Please, I beg you - no more triumvirates before DH!
I assure you I was only kidding!


  #28  
Old May 18th, 2007, 9:54 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by anabel
Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla
Quote:
OOP: Repetition of dialog and mannerisms;

…a hand had closed tight over his upper arm, closed with a pincer like grip…“Get out, get out, I don’t want to see you in this office ever again!” And as Harry hurtled toward the door, a jar of dead cockroaches exploded “over his head“ (p 650.)
Note the use of PINCER, not Pincher-like - an equally valid and similar word - but JKR specifically chose a version of Pince.
Sorry, but "pincher" is not even a word in British English. A good definition of "pincer" is given here.
It's "pincer" in the American version, also, which is what Hwyla uses, and what I use.

The word "pinch" is in the British Lexicon, I believe, last time I checked. It is from the Old French, but entered the English language in 1066 with the Norman Invasion. "Pinch," as in to "pinch" someone, has been around since the 1400s.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?...earchmode=none
pinch (v.)
c.1230, from O.N.Fr. *pinchier, var. of O.Fr. pincier, possibly from V.L. *punctiare "to pierce" (from L. punctum "point"), and *piccare "to pierce." Meaning "to steal" is from 1656. Sense of "to be stingy" is recorded from early 14c. Noun meaning "critical juncture" (as in baseball pinch hitter, attested from 1912) is from 1489; older than the literal sense of "act of pinching" (1591).

(All of that pre-dates the American Colonies, so "pinch" is a British word.)

I believe the real reason JKR used "Pincer-like Grip" is because the anagram works out to:

PRINCE-LIKE GRIP

That fits this theory because in Quidditch Through the Ages, Dumbledore says he has to "Pry" Irma's hand off the book - she may have a "Prince-Like Grip" also.

Pincer is just an anagram for "Prince," in my opinion.
Thank you for posting all that, but it didn't actually answer what I said. "Pincher" is still not a word, whereas "pincer" is, therefore Jo needs no particular reason to chose "pincer" rather than "pincher". But lets move on ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
I don't think of the translations as necessary for all clues in the book. There are a lot of languages out there, since her name "Pince" isn't like a color, or a noun and it relies on the combination of "I am" + "Prince" - I could see where it would be hard to find anagrams in all difference languages. I think one of the mods here pointed out that the translations are necessarily canon- though it helps when they go along.
As the Voldemort anagrams show, it's not that hard to recreate anagrams in other languages, especially when they are based on made up names.
List of translated character names
Tom Marvolo Riddle - I am Lord Voldemort
Tom Vorlost Riddle - ... ist Lord Voldemort
Marten Asmodom Vilijn - Mijn naam is Voldemort
Tom Dredolo Venster - Voldemort den store
Tom Gus Mervolo Dolder - Ego sum Lord Voldemort
Tom Elvis Jedusor - Je suis Voldemort
Tom Orvoloson Riddle - Sono io Lord Voldemort
Tom Rojvol Raddle - Já lord Voldemort

(I love the idea that Marvolo Gaunt was called Elvis in the French translation! I guess "Je suis" is the hardest part to anagram!)


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  #29  
Old May 18th, 2007, 10:20 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anabel View Post
As the Voldemort anagrams show, it's not that hard to recreate anagrams in other languages, especially when they are based on made up names.
Point taken, but still I don't think this lack of an international translation defeats the driving force behind the theory.


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  #30  
Old May 18th, 2007, 10:32 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Sigh...

Severus Snape inherited his hooked nose from his FATHER, not his mother.

Harry sees a hook-nosed man in Snape's memory, shouting at a cowering woman.

When we see the photo of the long ago Gobstoner, she is mentioned as "heavy browed", NOT hook nosed.

Irma Pince IS, however, hook-nosed.

Try direct canon, folks.


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  #31  
Old May 18th, 2007, 11:01 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

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Originally Posted by IgoRetla View Post
Sigh...
Severus Snape inherited his hooked nose from his FATHER, not his mother.
Harry sees a hook-nosed man in Snape's memory, shouting at a cowering woman.
When we see the photo of the long ago Gobstoner, she is mentioned as "heavy browed", NOT hook nosed.
Irma Pince IS, however, hook-nosed.
Try direct canon, folks.
Sigh... indeed. how do I put this politely? You might want to read the first page of this thread before you post, I 'm sorry but I did counter these arguments. Specifically in the section, I highlighted as

On the Nose. or how to fakes ones death through Transubstantial Transfiguration.


There is also the paragraph on the first post of this thread,

Quote:
Note: This thread is for those who want to accept this assumption and discuss it further. This thread is not for those who dismiss this idea all together. Though I invite any one to post questions for the purpose of clarification on certain aspects of the theory I do not wish to debate the theory as valid or invalid as a whole. The purpose of this thread is to explore it further and invite speculation with basis in canon.
If you don't agree, I understand. But dismissing it all together is not the purpose of this thread. the purpose is for speculation of what could be. A lot of time and effort went into gathering these arguments, please be polite enough to read through the first page before you post- Thanks.

However, I go ahead the section pertaining to this argument ,
Quote:
In the repetition of text alone, is clear that Rowling is associating Snape to Pince on some level. But how can we assume she’s a relative at all? The vision that Harry sees In Snape mind show’s Snape as a young boy crying in the corner while a “hooked nose” man screams at the cowering woman. If we presume that Snape’s father as the hooked nose man (Which we don’t know for sure, maybe it was an Uncle – or some other relative,) screaming at his mother– we know Snape didn’t get his nose from his mother Eileen.

So if it came from the other side of his family, why would Irma-As- Eileen have a "hooked nose?" Well- maybe she took her in part from Snape, Sr. or Jr. - when she transfigured to go into hiding.
“But how? And why? "

Both might be answered with the Title of the same book that Pince beat Dumbledore about the head with, “Theories of Transsubstantial Transfiguration.”

Transubstantiation: is a noun from Christian Theology: “(esp. in the Roman Catholic Church) the conversion of the substance of the Eucharistic elements into the body and blood of Christ at consecration, only the appearances of bread and wine still remaining. A formal a change in the form or substance of something.”

Transfiguration: is a term that means “a complete change of form or appearance into a more beautiful or spiritual state : in this light the junk undergoes a transfiguration; it shines. • the church festival commemorating this,”

Keep in mind that Dumbledore’s subject as a teacher was transfiguration.

Back to that book that Snape took from Harry. “Quidditch Through the Ages”(QttA.) This is the book in which Dumbledore refers to "Transubstantial Transfiguration" in the foreword thanking Madam Pince while citing her overzealous guardian like behavior about her Books and her suggestion that he fake his death . By my understanding of the definitions I’ve cited above he is referring to a book about re-birth. Or being brought back from the dead both and transfigured both physically and spiritually.

If we read the Title as “Quiddities through the Ages” or Quiddities over Time could be those the aspects of our personalities and distinctive character traits derived from our ancestry that might remain after such a Transfiguration. It’s mostly personalities that reveal a character and our connection to our family, maybe more so than our physical features. Much like Pince’s words and behaviors mimics Snape her – nose was made to mimic his as well to keep that connection to his distinctive trait from his father- her husband.


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Last edited by Bscorp; May 18th, 2007 at 11:49 pm.
  #32  
Old May 18th, 2007, 11:11 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
And I love this photo!

I’ve stated before that I know it is debatable as to whether or not the movies are considered canon because we don’t always know when and where JK made the decision to include something or not. But this image is definitely an interesting decision on the part of some one. I will go into my Snape-ish question mode again, if Irma Pince is just a trivial character- whose speaking parts in COS were filmed but then cut out of COS- why did they want her at the feast, why did they sit her next to Snape- why not at the other end of the table? Why at the table at all? She’s not a teacher. And why is she dressed so similarly- in all black and feathers- with a similar Snarky look on her face?
I probably wouldn't put too much stock in clues from the movies that don't appear in the books. Also, I don't think that lady looks old enough to be Snape's mother, unless she's taking a youth potion.

Interesting theory, though...


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  #33  
Old May 18th, 2007, 11:39 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon_in_a_Box View Post
I probably wouldn't put too much stock in clues from the movies that don't appear in the books. Also, I don't think that lady looks old enough to be Snape's mother, unless she's taking a youth potion. Interesting theory, though...
yeah, as I was telling anabel that picture both helps and hurts the argument- but again I am supposing that Eileen has been transfigured to take on the Irma Pince identity. So even IF ...(big if)...IF this could be considered canon at all– part of the transfiguration process for the purpose of hiding someone's mother might be to make them look younger.

I am not put off by the photo because the books still suggest Irma Pince to be an older woman . In the books she is at one point, described as "shriveled" and that implies someone who is perceptibly much older than the actress who played her.


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Last edited by Bscorp; May 18th, 2007 at 11:47 pm.
  #34  
Old May 19th, 2007, 2:21 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Bscorp:





This is just amazing - I've never been aware of the god "Irmin."

However, let me suggest another direction I've researched before . . . just to think about, because I like your theory too.

JKR has written about the "Family Mustelidae" or Weasel family of animals on her Official site. That family includes badgers, otters, weasels, ferrets, and ~ Ermines (also known as Stoats).

An "Ermine" in Heraldry is a sign of Royalty. It is shown either by the animal itself or black dots on white.

The French word for Ermine-Weasel is "Ermione," which is one letter from Hermione. And of course, we know Hermione is connected by love to the Weasley family.

"Irmin" or "Irma" just seems like a variation of Ermine!

Anyway, you can see an Ermine Cross on the Prince Family Shield, and an Ermine Shield on the Snape Family Crest.

This is interesting. I did a quick google search for family crests and I think I found the site (http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp/sId./qx/default.htm) where you got these images and out of curiosity I searched for the Potter crest: http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=Potter. It also has the same pattern of black dots on white on the crest.

Another thing I noticed about Snape's crest (I haven't tried to ponder yet the significance, if any, but I'm just throwing it out there) on the top there is an image that looks very much like the head of a "stag". Checking out the Evans' name crest (http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=Evans) ... it is topped by what appears to be a full bodied stag.

Again, I don't know what this could have to do with anything, just something to ponder on if anyone thinks it's worth it. I really love this theory, I love it to pieces, and I wish I had the time to really delve into it like Bscorp has. To me, the evidence is very compelling, and easy to follow too (which helps!! )


  #35  
Old May 19th, 2007, 3:42 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

[quote=Bscorp;4518852]Sigh... indeed. how do I put this politely? You might want to read the first page of this thread before you post, I 'm sorry but I did counter these arguments. Specifically in the section, I highlighted as

On the Nose. or how to fakes ones death through Transubstantial Transfiguration.


Really? So, to "hide", to disguise herself, she would make herself look MORE like her son, at a place where he works? Adopt a name almost the same as her own?

I'll also ask, to what purpose? Especially as a plot point? What purpose would it serve for Jo do such a thing?

Seriously--rather than rationalize connections, why not present a purpose? Something that advances the plot? It isn't Severus Snape and the Philosopher's Stone, etc, after all.


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  #36  
Old May 19th, 2007, 3:42 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Reminder: Please be respectful of other members opinions and stay on topic. Divination Studies requires less canon for speculative discussions.

This is an 'Assuming' thread and its intent is to allow people to discuss the idea of "Irma Pince as Eileen Prince, Snape's mother in hiding" in some manner. This thread is NOT to debate whether she is/isn't OR whether there's enough canon to support it.


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Old May 19th, 2007, 4:10 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Bravo! Bravo! IMHO, the plot point would be:
!. Explains Dumbledore's trust of Severus Snape. If he helped "hide" and is housing and protecting Snape's mum, he can be sure SNape is on the good side.
2. At this point it seems next to impossible for snape to have any way to (if good) to communicate with the order without getting himself killed. Ms. Pince would be on site at Hogwart's, to talk to Harry and explain whatever is needed.
3. SHe would explain alot of snape's backstory, like the memories Harry sees in the pensieve.

I like the idea of her being SNape's wife only because it answers JKR's quote re: if anyone has loved him and that Hogwart's teachers (some of them) are married but that it is restricted info. (restricted sound like an area of the LIBRARY, anyone?)
Just offering my two cents. But seriously Bscorp- amazing research job- one of the very best theories I've ever read.


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  #38  
Old May 19th, 2007, 5:00 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Frankly, I think there is plenty of canon on this thread.

Harry saw one picture of Eileen Prince, and one memory of a Hook-Nose man yelling at a cowering woman. In both instances, he doesn't notice the woman's nose, whether it is hooked or not.

Considering Snape's phsyiognomy (nose), it wouldn't surprise me if he got the nose from both sides of the family!

I feel there is evidence that Irma Pince is supposed to be older than Snape. She is called "shriveled" and her skin is "parchment-like." Those, to me, seem to be signs of old age. Plus the kids are quick to pair her up with Filch, who is an old man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anabel
Thank you for posting all that, but it didn't actually answer what I said. "Pincher" is still not a word, whereas "pincer" is, therefore Jo needs no particular reason to chose "pincer" rather than "pincher". But lets move on ...
"Pincer" isn't really accepted American English, but it is there in my American edition. And I'm glad it is there because I believe JKR wanted it there as a clue that Snape was the Half-Blood Prince, which we did not know while reading Order of the Phoenix. It just shows the extraordinary planning she put into these books. She always knew that Snape's story would follow OotP.


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  #39  
Old May 20th, 2007, 5:06 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Regarding the CoS photo of Pince and Snape . . . Canon Snape is about 35 (? -- not sure) yrs old at the time of CoS, Alan Rickman is maybe 55. The shots of Pince are so fleeting, distant or shadowed, even at the table, that it's hard to say much about her age. But to me, the skin of her face has that kind of stretched look you sometimes see in late middle-aged women who maybe have had a nip or a tuck or a lift. Plus, there's something about the lips, maybe it's only the dark shade of lipstick that when worn by older women accentuates age rather than creating a youthful look. I'm sure this is overanalyzing the whole thing beyond reason. But I don't think it takes anything away from the possibility that Pince is Snape's mother. The books make the age difference clear. So to me it doesn't seem necessary to say instead that she's a sister because of the movie. Maybe I'm being too flexible.


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Last edited by Snape_Redemptor; May 20th, 2007 at 5:09 am.
  #40  
Old May 20th, 2007, 8:04 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snape_Redemptor View Post
Regarding the CoS photo of Pince and Snape . . . Canon Snape is about 35 (? -- not sure) yrs old at the time of CoS, Alan Rickman is maybe 55. (...) The books make the age difference clear. So to me it doesn't seem necessary to say instead that she's a sister because of the movie. Maybe I'm being too flexible.
Thanks, you put it in better words that I could. For the record Alan Rickman is actually - at present day- 61 He might be up into his mid to late 60s by the time Deathly Hallows is filmed. So yeah- he is about twice the age of his character so that movie still is not a reliable age reference for the Irma/Snape dynamic.
---------------------------------------------

I wanted to go back an address the speculation aspect of this thread. Some people have asked why this revelation would be relevant.

The question is two fold:
1) How does Irma=Eileen further develop the plot?
2) How does Irma=Eileen develop the characters (mainly Harry and Snape?)

At the very end of HBP we learned something most revealing about the most mysterious and doubted character- then he is gone. Rowling ending to book 6 answered the question “Who is the Half Blood Prince,” but amazingly left Severus Snape – in the dark. I don’t think that JKR waited till the very end of HBP to mention Eileen Prince as the explanation behind Snape’s nickname just watch both Snape and his mother disappear off into the darkness.

Speculated plot and Character developments with the revelation of Irma = Eileen Prince.

The Horcruxes:
We have to ask, if Harry or the Trio discovered Irma and/or Eileen Prince and got to talk to her- what could she tell them that might help their goals? Harry is now on the hunt for Horcruxes with very little information about how to find them. Where does he begin and what will he do with them once he finds them? He’s awfully good at pulling through at the end on his own but he’s always needed help along the way.

Rowling has said that she originally intended "Chamber of Secrets" to be Titled "Half Blood Prince" but then took out the Prince’s storyline to make room on down the line for him.

Quote:
The story line of the Half-Blood Prince in this book was initially incorporated into the second book and I obviously do not want an elaborate on that in case people haven't finished the book and that is why the working title of Chamber of Secrets was the Half-Blood Prince, it became clear to me during the writing of that book that I had two major plots here that really did not work too well together side by side, so one had to be pulled out, it became clear immediately that I could have soldiered on, included that information there and that would have been messed up the later plot, as you know if you have. I will be very careful, the revelations about the half-blood, for instance, would have blown a lot of things open…(link).
One strikingly parallel element in COS and HBP are the two books with secret identities. Riddle’s Diary and Snape’s/Prince’s Advanced Potions book. Both are metaphors for their owners. I wonder, could there be a secret about the Advanced Potions Book that would have led to the Secret behind the Diary? The Diary revealed Riddle to be Voldemort, and in HBP we found out is was also a Horcrux. The Potions Book revealed the Half Blood Prince to be Severus Snape and it led us to Eileen Prince. Could Eileen Prince also be a key to discovering the Horcruxes?

The Potions book is estimated to be about 50 years old – if bought new by Snape’s Mother while she was in school it might place her in school as a younger student about the time Tom Riddle was an older student. This also might be about the same time as Chamber of Secrets was first opened and about the time Riddle created the Diary Horcrux. Irma Pince is skilled in "hexing books." It might follow that Pince /Prince knows something about how Riddle made his diary into a Horcrux? Could she know the secret to the spell?

Inside Information:

If Snape is good, and wants to facilitate the downfall of Voldemort from the inside, he has no way of communicating to the Order or Harry directly. No one will trust him. However, if Irma= Eileen no doubt she would want to keep tabs with her son somehow. Perhaps -inherent to the secrecy of their relationship- they already have a failsafe method of communication established. Pince might be able to deliver some useful information.

What will happen when Voldemort attacks the school? No doubt every member of the staff, the elves and the ghosts- down to the paintings and the Suit of Armor will stand up to defend the school. I imagine Irma Pince will be a part of this defense. If she is still in touch with Snape somehow- she might have some inside information on how Voldemort plans to attack the school. If she has half of the cunning her son lives off of she will figure out a way to pass that info along to the right people and may not even reveal where it's coming from.


The Dementor Army.


Dumbledore suggested as far back as GOF that Voldemort would recruit the Dementors and it appears by HBP, he has– and they have been breeding for some time now. No doubt Voldemort will sick an army of them on the school or the rest of the Wizarding World at some point in DH. Scary stuff.

The only method we know of to fight off the Dementors is Harry’s own method, taught to him by Lupin. The Patronus charm. Yet the Patronus is also very advanced magic. Harry is good with it by now and he taught it to a handful of students in his DADA class, but even Harry wasn’t able to conjure one up under pressure the first time he needed to and it seems most of the school who did not attend his classes would not now how to do it. So how is a school full of inexperience students of varying ages going to fight the dementors?

At the very end of HBP we learned that Snape’s method of fighting off a Dementor differs from Harrys- but Rowling failed to reveal exactly what the difference was.

Now remember, “that awful boy?” That Petunia overheard Lily talking to about Dementors. Here's an interesting exchange from a Q&A with Rowling:
Quote:
David Moulds for the News of the World - How does Aunt Petunia know about dementors and all the other magical facts she knows?

JK Rowling: Another very good question. She overheard a conversation, that is all I am going to say. She overheard conversation. The answer is in the beginning of Phoenix, she said she overheard Lily being told about them basically.

Is that true?

JK Rowling: Yes. The reason I am hesitant is because there is more to it than that. As I think you suspect. Correctly, but I don't want to say what else there is because it relates to book 7. (link)
Notice Rowling is careful not to say WHO Lily was talking to. If it were simply James Potter Petunia overheard-as Harry had suspected- that would reveal no big secret. Rowling would not have the need to leave it out of the text and out of her answer. However, if it were Snape- that is a big revelation and a plot point she would want to hide.

J.K. Rowling has also stated that she won't reveal the matter of what Snape’s Patronus form would take or his Boggart –until Book 7– because it gives too much away. Here's this Q&A:
Quote:
Ernie: I wonder if you can let us know what form will Professor Snape's Boggart and Patronus take? I am very curious.
JK Rowling replies -> Well, I'm not going to tell you Ernie, but that's because it would give so much away. I wonder whether Ernie is your real name? (It was my grandfather's).(link)
Rowling shut that one down pretty fast ( then pointedly enough brought up a family ancestor. )

We know that Harry’s Patronus takes the form of the stag which is a symbol of his father (paternal protection.) Tonk’s Patronus is symbolic of Lupin- whom she is in love with. So it seem the Patronus takes the form of a familial Protector. Snape's Patronus would reveal who his family Protector really is. If his family connections are not important why would Snape and Rowling feel the need to hide it up to that last book? This if anythign is an indicator that Snape is hiding anything to do with his family. It might reveal once and for all his connection to Irma Pince the Vulturelike protector- who mimics his words and behaviors in COS and OOP.

When we learn more about this conversation with Lily we might learn more about Snape’s past experience with Dementors, and why his own instructions for the students who don't know how to conjur a Patronus might matter.

Maybe we also learn we can't see his Patronus. Most likely his Patronus is the key to his protector, and could be a big clue to his true loyalty. Irma Pince might be able to reveal why Snape was talking to Lily about Dementors and bring home his method for fighting them. In turn if we see Snape’s Patronus – it might reveal his connection to Irma Pince, (I suspect in the form of an Irish Phoenix which "looks like an underfed Vulture".)


Character development for both Harry and Snape

Someone asked why it would be important to know Snape was hiding his mother? I would say for basically the same reasons it's important to know Tonks loved Lupin, Or why Percy idolized Crouch Sr., Or why we saw Neville’s Mom give him gum wrappers. Why do we need anyone’s emotional motivations? It’s character development of course, and a lot of these issues tie back to the central theme of family. The only main character who left the biggest gap in his life story and thus has inspired the most questions about it would be Snape.

If Snape has made the effort to keep his Mother alive all these years, there are many things that might be explained.

Dumbledore's Trust
How much conflict between Harry and Snape might have been alleviated if Dumbledore could just tell Harry (and the readers) WHY he trusted Snape – yet Dumbledore never did. Even when Harry’s doubt reached a level of rage and it appeared that Dumbledore wanted to tell Harry the truth– Dumbledore balks. I suspect the secret in trusting Snape may also be Snape’s trust in Dumbledore.
If Snape’s return to the Light had anything to do with hiding his mother from Voldemort- this would be lot more involved and personal than just a single tale of “remorse” That Dumbledore could repeat. the revelation would put a third party at risk and most likely infuriated Snape. Snape would never have wanted Dumbledore to tell anyone – let alone Harry (who’s mind was connected with the very same Evil that Snape was hiding her from.) Dumbledore was keeping mum so to respect Snape’s own wishes, his privacy, and his family’s safety.

The Vow:

So many theories have been spawned as to Why did Snape take the vow? I think of the when, where, and with which character. Snape is at Spinner’s end, which is presumed to be his childhood home. Surely Snape saw the desperation on Narcissa's face as soon as she stepped foot on his doorstep. I would imagine that nightly visits to Spinner’s end are not common. As soon as she sat down in this house- his Mother’s House– Snape had to be reading her mind and calculating his own risks in hearing her out. When Narcissa presents her plea, and asks for the Vow, Snape does not laugh her off, and toss them out citing the Dark Lord's wishes. Snape listens.

Bellatrix tries to argue that he is scared to take the Vow, implying that Snape had to prove himself to the DE. But Snape had just made a strong case to Bellatrix that it is not any Death Eater’s approval he needs but only Voldemort’s. If he were indeed loyal to "Lord" Voldemort– Snape could have easily denied Narcissa before she even had a chance to ask for a Vow -citing “The Dark Lord’s word is law.” But Snape stepped into the trap with Narcissa anyway. Snape took the Unbreakable Vow and in doing so they may have both denied Voldemort and put their own lives at risk.

If the Vow itself was a trap set up by Voldemort to test Severus’s loyalty, whether or not Snape knew exactly what it would entail before he took her hand, or how much he was communicating with Dumbledore about the vow afterwards, is all up for debate. The significance of the vow as I see it is that it was Narcissa- Draco’s mother - who asked Snape to take the Vow. This was a mother's sacrifice for her son.

If we found out that Snape had a situation similar with is own Mother in his youth, this could shift the motivations behind his taking the vow in a whole new direction. This explains why Snape bothered to hear Narcissa out at all. It would allow the cold, harsh, character of Snape a new character trait- the expression of sympathy.

The books are written from a Mother’s perspective. So Moms are obviously important. The series began with Harry’s mother giving her life for her son and throughout the series it explores the ways that this transferred power onto him. But was it really just her life or her love that mattered? How many ways can a mother express that kind of love? Do only the perfect moms count? Or does the power lie in A mother's motive as much as the method.

Snape is the Anti-hero of the series. If we met Eileen Prince – and heard her side of the story- even if just briefly- it would bring Snape into the realm as “Somebody’s Son” instead of an isolated, 1 dimensional nemeses and man unto himself. The comparison and contrast of Snape’s relationship to his mother would enhance the overall arch of the series- a Mother’s love and power handed down to her son.

Judgment and humanity:

Another supporting theme in the books that strikes clear for me is about Judgment and common humanity. We’ve seen the Hanged Man motif pop up numerous times. Snape is one “hanged man” among many in the series.
In the past, Sirius was condemned without for being a “mad killer,” and threatened by the Dementor’s kiss. The language spoken about Sirius as a "killer and spy" who "was tired of being a double agent" directly foreshadows Snape's reputation at the end of HBP. Barty Crouch Jr. was believed to be guilty only by association. His first trial was a farce where Crouch was seen crying out to his Mother for help while his own father condemned him. It seems Azkaban drove him further to the dark side. His own mother traded places with him to free him to join Voldemort’s ranks- more loyal and fanatic than ever before.
In GOF- Dumbledore was furious that Barty Crouch was given the Dementor’s Kiss without hearing any testimony from Crouch.

"But he cannot now give testimony, Cornelius," said Dumbledore. He was staring hard at Fudge, as though seeing him plainly for the first time. "He cannot give evidence about why he killed those people."
To Fudge, of course, this idea is ridiculous. Guilty is Guilty and no further understanding is needed. There are many readers who might think this about Severus Snape. He killed Dumbledore - nothing can redeem him so it doesn't matter why.

If Snape lives to see judgment, no doubt he faces the same fate as Crouch and Sirius. He would be given the Dementor's Kiss. If the dementors are no longer in service -perhaps Snape will face the gallows -so to speak. He may be sent through the veil.

A fair trial is the not just a test of a civil society’s rules and regulations. It is the right for the accused to be heard and the record of society’s judgments. Even if someone is “known” to be guilty, it is important we understand the how and why. Society plays a part in the outcome. We must acknowledge that even the worst of those whom we condemn, are in fact human beings in essence and not too different than us. When we deny the most basic common humanity we share with those condemned to death, or the most hated of our enemies, we lose our own humanity.

When Dumbledore was showing Harry the pensieve memories with Tom Riddle’s life story- Harry asked Dumbledore if these memories were important. Dumbledore asserted that they were indeed. I believe this was for the same reason he thought Crouch’s testimony was important.
Not all of the Riddle memories had to do finding Horcruxes. Many of them were about the man Tom Riddle and his motivations. Why would Dumbledore think it was important for Harry to see where Riddle’s family history even if we know in the end Harry will “vanquish” him? Harry was learning about the human side of his enemy.
Also in HBP, readers gained a new level of insight on the families behind the three people Harry hated most- Snape, Draco, and Voldemort. The first time Harry realized any sympathy for Snape when he saw the vision of Snape’s mother “cowering.” In OOP. At the end of HBP he found her name and a clearer picture. Harry also had a moment of empathy for Draco upon realized the depth of his family’s danger.
These moments allowed Harry to see outside of himself and identify with his enemies and see that they are in fact human. This keeps him in touch with his own humanity and Harry’s strength. The key to fighting Evil that is Voldemort is not loosing that Humanity. That power is deeply rooted in his connection with his own mother, Lily.

I suspect this power from one mother to son will echo in Snape’s own story with his mother. Snape may not get a chance to testify or confess but maybe his mother will.


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Last edited by Bscorp; May 20th, 2007 at 8:25 am.
 
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