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ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.



 
 
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  #41  
Old May 20th, 2007, 1:40 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Found this picture of Sally Mortemore who plays Irma Pince in CoS from Mugglenet's cast listing for the movie. Her age looks right for Pince.

http://www.mugglenet.com/movies/gene...ortemore.shtml


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  #42  
Old May 20th, 2007, 4:14 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

I like this theory, it's plausible and it explains a lot. It would certainly explain DD's ironclad trust in Snape, and also explain why Snape spent a lot of time near the library. There's a whole laundry list of little things that it explains, and off the top of my head I can't think of any serious objections or contradictions it would bring up. Muggle women can alter the appearance of their age by many years without magic; so I would imagine that DD and Snape and Irma Pince could alter her apparent age by many years without much difficulty.
An interesting question would be how many of the other teachers know? Especially McGonagall, who might recognize Irma Pince from her own time at Hogwarts?


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  #43  
Old May 20th, 2007, 11:10 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chparadise View Post
...also explain why Snape spent a lot of time near the library.
Good point - while I don't remember precisely how it was introduced in bk1, that Filch was to report to Snape anyone caught late at night - it was however directly related to Harry then finding the Mirror of Erised and seeing his own mother, Lily. In the movie, Snape seems tp already be nearby, threatening Quirrel - this is not so clear in the books - especially since this was not the situation in which Harry overheard the threat in the books. However, I'm reminded that Snape (in the movies) is then basically visiting the library, very late on Christmas night (the first night Haary has the cloak).

Which then suggests to me (now) that he was visiting his mom on that Christmas night.


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When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.
  #44  
Old May 20th, 2007, 11:30 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Well, I think the "Irma Pince=I am Prince" pretty much says it all (maybe the anagram idea is a hint that she knows a bit about Voldemort). And I would assumed she's the one JKR talked about, saying Snape's been loved.

Quote:
MA: Oh, here’s one that I’ve really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?

JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has.

(Anelli, Melissa and Emerson Spartz. "The Leaky Cauldron and Mugglenet interview Joanne Kathleen Rowling: Part Three," The Leaky Cauldron, 16 July 2005)
She also said that Snape being in love was a "very horrible idea". It kinds of rule out the romantical relationship to me, leading us to a mother-son relationship.

Just wanted to drop the quote, hoping it'll feed some interesting theories I've read


  #45  
Old May 21st, 2007, 3:41 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

i have to agree with what was just said. i think when JK was talking about Snape being loved, it definately means his mother. of course, i could be wrong.

out of curiousity, is it possible she's Snape's sister instead? (just for discussion purposes)


  #46  
Old May 21st, 2007, 3:51 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

I think the basics of the theory could work for mother, wife, or sister. We don't know that Snape had a sister or a wife, but we do know he had a mother, and we know her name. (Eileen Prince).


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  #47  
Old May 21st, 2007, 4:00 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryplo2 View Post
i have to agree with what was just said. i think when JK was talking about Snape being loved, it definately means his mother. of course, i could be wrong.

out of curiousity, is it possible she's Snape's sister instead? (just for discussion purposes)
This had occurred to me. I could argue the brother/sister connection using the same evidence I've cited. The metaphors and symbolism could still apply only that they're connected with their Mother. If they were brother/sister both raised under an abusive Father and a "cowering" mother- then they would find protection in each other and that bond would be very very strong. I wouldn't cry if that turned out to be the case.

However, I am going with the Mother/Son angle because i think it explains his motivations for taking the Unbreakable Vow and compliments the overall arc of the series about finding the Power to vanguish evil from the Mother.

Also -as InkPot -pointed out, Irma Pince is described as having skin like "parchment" and "shriveled" features plus the fact that she is deemed an equal with Filch who seems much older that most of the staff all indicates that in the books she is perceived as an older woman.


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  #48  
Old May 21st, 2007, 4:46 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

While I agree that Irma sounds older (parchment skin), IF she's Snape's mom then she isn't really that old in Wizarding terms. She would be roughly the same age as Hagrid (or maybe a year or so younger since the publication of the potions book was 'almost' 50 years ago).

And Hagrid really doesn't 'look' terribly old, neither does Minerva, who is a few years older. So, I don't have a particular problem with Irma's apparent age in the movie.

BTW - and somewhat off-topic (sorry) - but what canon do we have for Filch's age? I'm not positive that he has actually been described as 'old' - at least not 'old' as adults think of as old (kids think 40 is old...) I wonder because I'm not positive whether he was around during the Marauders' time at Hogwarts. I know the Map was in FIlch's drawer, but the Twin's would call it Filch's even if someone else had been caretaker before.

I suppose his 'missing the screaming' from using 'chains' in detention tends to indicate that he was there before Albus was Headmaster, but then again - it's the kind of thing one says to increase 'fear' among the students (whether it's actually true or not).

I'm just not totally positive that Filch is necessarily 'old'. And I wonder whether squibs age faster than wizards? Are they more like muggles in aging? It might be the actual USE of magic that keeps them 'young'?


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When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.
  #49  
Old May 21st, 2007, 4:57 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Hwyla, I could just be remembering something I've thought of before, but I thought JKR had a quote about how Harry got the Map back... (I can't remember the instance, but she had assumed we'd know he'd just steal it back from whoever's office it was in the next time he passed it.) In it (and this could just be coming from me) she said George and Fred had found it originally in Filch's office... So I assumed he had been there in the Marauder's time, and it had been there ever since.


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Old May 21st, 2007, 5:13 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge View Post
Hwyla, I could just be remembering something I've thought of before, but I thought JKR had a quote about how Harry got the Map back... (I can't remember the instance, but she had assumed we'd know he'd just steal it back from whoever's office it was in the next time he passed it.) In it (and this could just be coming from me) she said George and Fred had found it originally in Filch's office... So I assumed he had been there in the Marauder's time, and it had been there ever since.
Also if I recall correctly when Snape assigned detention to Harry in HBP, he retrieved the records of James and Sirius' infractions from Filch. On HPL, his character description imply someone older. He is listed as "Rheumatic (OOP 28) and hunchbacked, Filch wheezes and shuffles when he walks (PS). He has pale eyes, jowls that quiver (POA 8), and thin grey hair (OOP14)." Filch making mention of the "old days," may be the only canon to suggest he's been around for a while. But the Map being kept in his office , plus the old files he still kept, adds to the idea that he was working there when James and Snape attended and would be older that Snape's generation.


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  #51  
Old May 21st, 2007, 5:19 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Filch is an old man in the movies, but that doesn't necessarily correlate with the age of Filch in the books...I too was under the impression he was older by wizarding / squibb standards.


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  #52  
Old May 21st, 2007, 6:21 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

I think the mention of grey hair convinces me the most. Filch's office could have been someone else's beforehand. But I will need to go check to see if Filch's files (Harry's detention) are specific that Filch wrote them. I just find that once I assume something, I later realize that JKR has tricked me - she often 'implies' without actually 'saying'. But let's leave off - it's really off-topic - thanks for the reminders.

Just doing a little thinking upon what Bscorp has said about the significance of Irma=Eileen (IF it turns out to be true).

I had considered her as a source for info on youngSnape, but had not really thought of how she might be useful for getting from Snape to Harry (without Harry realizing it came from Snape). I especially like the idea of Irma supplying Horcrux info. As Bscorp said - bk2 was our first glimpse of a horcrux, it would tie in nicely with bk6's horcrux revelations if Eileen Prince who we just 'met' in bk6 was also part of that.

It isn't even as if she must actually 'tell' them anything - just possibly provide a book from Snape's collection at SpinnersEnd? Or Snape's 'rooms' at Hogwarts? Considering the kids are going to hunt down powerful Dark Arts objects and try to destroy them, any Defense book (especially one that deals with destroying a horcrux or on horcrux theory) would seem helpful. IF anyone has books on dealing with defense against the kind of curses the trio are likely to come up against, it would be Snape.

Unfortunately, Hermione has already searched the library and found it 'wanting' on the subject - so, I'm not sure she would turn to Irma for help - especially since JKR has said that part of the reason she made Irma like that was to have Hermione searching on her own.

You know - one thing I had not thought of - JKR once mentioned that the Wizarding World had it's own form of something similar to the internet and we have not seen it shown yet. For all we know, info might be passed to the trio in that manner. It's very anonymous, they wouldn't know it was Irma (or for that matter, even Snape) passing them info.

And it would make sense for the Adult Wizards to have some access to the Hogwarts Library without having to go there and disturb the students (unless there is another more 'public' library). For instance - I feel fairly sure that there is probably 'some' internet access in some form to info in Oxford's library in the 'real' world - if there isn't then I'm sure there are people that WISH there was, so I can see a reason for JKR to do something like this.


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When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.

Last edited by hwyla; May 21st, 2007 at 1:47 pm.
  #53  
Old May 21st, 2007, 6:41 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are hidden sections of the library that the students don't even know about. But I like your idea of some old book being taken from Spinners end. I still want to know how it is Harry just happened to get a hold of Snape's old potions book. Surely he didn't turn it in after he made all of his notes in there. How did it get back into that classroom at all?
And does it still have some secrets to reveal?


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  #54  
Old May 22nd, 2007, 1:25 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Bscorp- I wanted to share something I posted on another thread- that I so buy your theory and I also think that it explains what Dumbledore was doing with James cloak on the night of the attack at GH- I believe he was hiding Eileen under it to transport her to Hogwarts. You can't apparate in and although DD could lift the enchantments, perhaps something happened to interfere with that or the timing was too tight and he had to move her fast.
I have to disagree about Irma/Eileen being the one to tell Harry about the dementors- I think this will be Petunia and therefore answers JKR's statement about Petunia not being a squib BUT....... Because of your theory, imho, many, many of the unanswered mysteries up til this point are answered. It is quite frankly the best I have heard and the closest I have felt to figuring out what is coming in #7.


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  #55  
Old May 22nd, 2007, 4:16 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by momeve View Post
Bscorp- I wanted to share something I posted on another thread- that I so buy your theory and I also think that it explains what Dumbledore was doing with James cloak on the night of the attack at GH-
That thought did occur to me! What if Dumbledore needed the cloak for a third party (ie Eileen.) I didn't have the nerve to post it.
Thanks for the feedback, but I have to say I am only echoing and elaborating upon the theory that was first collected and eloquently stated by Pam2002..


-------
Something else occurred to me in addition to the Filch Factor.

Filch is the one who catches Draco outside and brings him to Snape during the Xmas Party.

Later, Draco confesses to Dumbledore that he overheard Hermione mentioning Filch not recognizing potions in the library. That mention was in between the glimpses of Irma Pince "prowling" the bookshelves nearby. It seems to me that Pince might have been watching Draco as they were both hovering around the conversation.

These are two incidents that seem to tie both Pince and Filch to Draco who was Snape's charge that year.


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  #56  
Old May 25th, 2007, 7:52 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SusanBones111 View Post
Now that Snape has left the school, will Madam Pince continue as the librarian? Will she be in contact with Snape in DH?
If she is his Mom, I've speculated that She will keep in touch and keep the information chain open. Between Snape and the Order somehow.

However, an amusing speculation might be, what if she were promoted- er- um- maybe to the new DADA opening? They have to be getting low on potential candidates right? Especially now since DD is gone and the school might be under threat. Pince does "follow" Snape as a theme in the books, and she would have an inside track on what to prepare the students for.

it's a bit out there -I guess. Just a thought.


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Old May 25th, 2007, 7:56 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

i thnk that pince is pretty set in her librarianship. She won't want to switch, she loves her books too much.


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Old May 25th, 2007, 9:31 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
If she is his Mom, I've speculated that She will keep in touch and keep the information chain open. Between Snape and the Order somehow.

However, an amusing speculation might be, what if she were promoted- er- um- maybe to the new DADA opening? They have to be getting low on potential candidates right? Especially now since DD is gone and the school might be under threat. Pince does "follow" Snape as a theme in the books, and she would have an inside track on what to prepare the students for.

it's a bit out there -I guess. Just a thought.
I agree wholeheartedly that she will stay, whether in the role of librarian or not, who knows. But I think that one of the reasons for the author putting her here is to have a way to keep info flowing from Snape to the order, or even to explain somehow that , if SNape is in fact good, he has an explanation for the tower incident beyond what we or the order and Harry knows.


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  #59  
Old May 27th, 2007, 12:50 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
"Pincer" isn't really accepted American English, but it is there in my American edition. And I'm glad it is there because I believe JKR wanted it there as a clue that Snape was the Half-Blood Prince, which we did not know while reading Order of the Phoenix. It just shows the extraordinary planning she put into these books. She always knew that Snape's story would follow OotP.
Perhaps this could help. The definition below is from www.webster.com. It is an American dictionary.


Main Entry: pin·cer
Pronunciation: 'pin(t)-s&r, especially for 1 US often 'pin-ch&r
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction
Etymology: Middle English pinceour, from Anglo-French *pinceour, pinchure, from Anglo-French *pincher, pincer to pinch, from Vulgar Latin *pinctiare, *punctiare, from Latin punctum puncture -- more at POINT
1 : an instrument having two short handles and two grasping jaws working on a pivot and used for gripping things
2 : a claw (as of a lobster) resembling a pair of pincers : CHELA
3 : PINCER MOVEMENT

So the word may have an American pronunciation of pincher, but it is definitely spelled pincer. And pincers are used to pinch or constrict things. That definition is exactly what I expected to find since I am familiar with the words pincer and pincer movement. I've also had teachers, who didn't have family with the last name of Prince, grab my arm in exactly the same way. They weren't allow to administer physical punishment, but they sure knew how to grab a child's arm and squeeze very hard. So when Snape grabbed Harry that way, it was intended to hurt, which it did.


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Old May 27th, 2007, 4:20 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Thanks for the definition, CBW. It seems the definition will work out for both sides of the argument which thankfully allows for the readers personal interpretation and further enjoyment of the text. Literary, Perceptual, and Conceptual imagery are 3 different way to read an image as presented by an author. A good story allows for more than one - (hopefully as many as possible, IMO.) What level one wants to read a single word on is entirely up to the reader of course. Both interpretations are valid. Reading "Pincer" as a conceptual reference to "Pince" is completely valid for the purpose of this thread.

Moving on....

I will add that a "Pincer" like grip, could also describe how Madam Pince is extremely reluctant to let go of "Quidditch Through the Ages," to the point that Dumbledore had to "pry each of her fingers individually from the spine" of the book. In which case she was not intending to "hurt" the book of course but to keep it in her care. Couple this description with that of MMe Pince in HBP, "snatching his copy of Advanced Potion-making off the table as she lunged at it with a claw like hand." And we have a general character description of Mme Pince that is very much in line both with the (#2) definition CBW quoted (thanks!) and similar to Snape's grip citied in OOP.

Thus I see two seemingly dissimilar motives -Snape motivated by anger holding onto Harry's arm, and Pince motivated by overzealous guardedness holding onto a book- described with similar perceptual imagery.

However, I believe that the reactions from Snape in OOP and Pince in QttA and HBP- are all similar in conceptual imagery as well, in that they were sparked by a desperate need to guard something they deemed as "their own" in fear of a kind of exposure and violation. In OOP Snape was reacting to Harry's intrusion into his personal memories from the pensieve. In QttA, Madam Pince was reacting to the release of a Wizarding book into the Muggle world- the same book the Snape took from Harry in PS/SS adamantly stating, "Library books are not to be taken outside the school." In QttA Pince’s motive might be interpreted as her fearing the books release was a kind of intrusion on her world. Then Pince’s reaction as described in HBP –with her “claw-like” hand– was also seemingly motivated by a kind of personal violation as she lunged for a book that had been “befouled” and “desecrated.”


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Last edited by Bscorp; May 27th, 2007 at 5:59 pm.
 
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