Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Harry Potter Archives > Divination Studies

ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.



 
 
Thread Tools
  #61  
Old May 28th, 2007, 12:32 am
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5408 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 57
Posts: 9,778
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

On a different note, and inspired by my friend JanusIncantus who is from Finland, and always thinks of the "Pince-Nez" reference to Madame Pince's name. Forget the English - think of the French meaning!

There is a type of reading glasses called "Pince-Nez" which literally means "Pinch Nose."

Let us not forget that Madame Pince has this huge honkin' nose, just like Snape.

Of course, people need reading glasses in a library most of all.

We also know that JKR studied French, but that is irrelevant because that type of spectacles is always called "Pince-Nez", around the world.

However, "Pince-Nez" could also be seen in French as a pun and anagram for "Nee Prinze." That could mean "Born a Prince." :evil"

It could also mean "Not Pince" if "Ne" is used for "Not." That might mean that Pince is not who she seems to be!


In Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's book, "The Return of Sherlock Holmes," there is a story called The Case of the Golden Pince Nez.

Wikipedia, "Case of the Golden Pince-Nez"

One important piece of evidence was found in Willoughby Smith’s hand: a pair of golden pince-nez glasses. Holmes examines these and from them alone deduces several things about the murderer:

It is a woman;
She is of some good breeding;
She dresses like a lady;
She has a thick nose;
Her eyes are close together;
She has a puckered forehead, a peering look, and likely rounded shoulders;
She has been to an optician’s at least twice over the last few months.


To me, that is just as valid a literary reference to Madame Pince as the reference to Mrs. Norris or Mrs. Cole from Jane Austen.

It could also be a reference to Eileen Prince, with her "good breeding" and her "puckered brow" ("Heavy Brow" in the HBP description).

Also we have a reference to Dumbledore having to pull Quidditch through the Ages out of Madame Pince's "grip," and then Harry having to pull the HBP book out of her "grip."

That is just like Snape with his "Pincer-like Grip." I just don't see why that is up for debate. JKR is using the same words!!!


__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon

Last edited by silver ink pot; May 28th, 2007 at 12:36 am.
Sponsored Links
  #62  
Old May 28th, 2007, 12:46 am
anabel's Avatar
anabel  Undisclosed.gif anabel is offline
Member of the Order
 
Joined: 4991 days
Location: Godric's Hollow
Posts: 9,184
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
On a different note, and inspired by my friend JanusIncantus who is from Finland, and always thinks of the "Pince-Nez" reference to Madame Pince's name. Forget the English - think of the French meaning!

There is a type of reading glasses called "Pince-Nez" which literally means "Pinch Nose."

Let us not forget that Madame Pince has this huge honkin' nose, just like Snape.

Of course, people need reading glasses in a library most of all.

We also know that JKR studied French, but that is irrelevant because that type of spectacles is always called "Pince-Nez", around the world.

However, "Pince-Nez" could also be seen in French as a pun and anagram for "Nee Prinze." That could mean "Born a Prince." :evil"

It could also mean "Not Pince" if "Ne" is used for "Not." That might mean that Pince is not who she seems to be!


In Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's book, "The Return of Sherlock Holmes," there is a story called The Case of the Golden Pince Nez.

To me, that is just as valid a literary reference to Madame Pince as the reference to Mrs. Norris or Mrs. Cole from Jane Austen.

It could also be a reference to Eileen Prince, with her "good breeding" and her "puckered brow" ("Heavy Brow" in the HBP description).

Also we have a reference to Dumbledore having to pull Quidditch through the Ages out of Madame Pince's "grip," and then Harry having to pull the HBP book out of her "grip."

That is just like Snape with his "Pincer-like Grip." :rotfl" I just don't see why that is up for debate. JKR is using the same words!!!
Well, except for the fact that Madam Pince doesn't wear pince-nez, perhaps ... Mrs Norris and Mrs Cole in Jane Austen aren't particularly closely related to their name-mates in Harry Potter, either.
Quote:
It could also be a reference to Eileen Prince, with her "good breeding" and her "puckered brow" ("Heavy Brow" in the HBP description).
Eileen Prince is described as "simultaneously cross and sullen, with heavy brows and a long, pallid face".


__________________
So long and thanks for all the fish!
  #63  
Old May 28th, 2007, 1:00 am
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5408 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 57
Posts: 9,778
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

No, Madame Pince does not wear glasses, it is true. But her name has "Pince" in it all the same.

"Puckered Brow"/"Heavy Brow" - not much difference.


Sorry, I still think Pince is a Sherlock Holmes reference. I'll just quote more from the story - the woman with the large nose and Pince-Nez hides behind a bookcase, and not only that - a "hinged" bookcase, like the one at Spinner's End!

http://sherlock-holmes.classic-liter...ok-page-11.asp

Adventure of the Golden Pince-Nez

"You are mad!" he cried. "You are talking insanely. I helped her to escape? Where is she now?"

"She is there," said Holmes, and he pointed to a high bookcase in the corner of the room.

~~~~~~~~~~

I saw the old man throw up his arms, a terrible convulsion passed over his grim face, and he fell back in his chair. At the same instant the bookcase at which Holmes pointed swung round upon a hinge, and a woman rushed out into the room. "You are right!" she cried, in a strange foreign voice. "You are right! I am here."

She was brown with the dust and draped with the cobwebs which had come from the walls of her hiding-place. Her face, too, was streaked with grime, and at the best she could never have been handsome, for she had the exact physical characteristics which Holmes had divined, with, in addition, a long and obstinate chin.



Right - never handsome, never attractive. Just like Eileen Prince and Irma Pince! And behind the bookcase!

This is like a game of Clue!

Madame Pince behind the bookcase with her wand!


__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon
  #64  
Old May 28th, 2007, 1:05 am
Bscorp's Avatar
Bscorp  Undisclosed.gif Bscorp is offline
Seventh Year
 
Joined: 4085 days
Posts: 1,502
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
On a different note, and inspired by my friend JanusIncantus who is from Finland, and always thinks of the "Pince-Nez" reference to Madame Pince's name. Forget the English - think of the French meaning!

There is a type of reading glasses called "Pince-Nez" which literally means "Pinch Nose."
Thanks for the Doyle reference! That's great! Bookcases, cobwebs, and Pince-nez, at Spinners End. How fun.

-----
On another topic, something I noticed today that I had skipped over in my section on Snape reacting to banshee types wailing or screeching. I had mentioned how in GOF and OOP with Snape alerted by the sound of a screaming. But I failed to notice that this precedent is first set up in ch. 12 of PS/SS when Harry is in the restricted section of the library.

PS/SS Ch. 11 is where Snape took the "Quidditch..." Book and when Harry sees Filch tending to Snape. Ch. 12 "The Mirror of Erised" where Harry sneaks into the restricted section of the library to look for a book on Flamel.

The description of the library in this scene is very eerie. Harry thinks he can hear the books whispering around him (which reminds me of the moment in OOP when he hears voices whispering from behind the veil.) He picks up a book, opens it, what does it do? It "screeches!" Presumably this is a hex put on the book by MMe Pince, so this is another example of "screeching" used to protect something or as a call to alarm and of Snape following up on it- via Filch.

Harry runs out of the library only to barely miss Filch - who in turn brings along Snape of course saying to Snape,
'"You asked me to come directly to you, Professor, if anyone was wandering around at night, and somebody's been in the library - Restricted Section."
In the next scene we see Harry discovers the vision of his own Mother- crying- Father, and ancestors in the Mirror of Erised.


__________________
"He that wrestles with us strengthens our nerves, and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper." — Edmund Burke
“But the big ones, the Dumbledore storyline, the Snape storyline were always there because you — the series is built around those.” -J.K. Rowling

Last edited by Bscorp; May 28th, 2007 at 1:12 am.
  #65  
Old May 28th, 2007, 1:14 am
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5408 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 57
Posts: 9,778
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
The description of the library in this scene is very eerie. Harry thinks he can hear the books whispering around him (which reminds me of the moment in OOP when he hears voices whispering from behind the veil.) He picks up a book, opens it, what does it do? It "screeches!" Presumably this is a hex put on the book by MMe Pince, so this is another example of "screeching" used to protect something or as a call to alarm and of Snape following up on it- via Filch.
That's a great point! I never associated that with Pince, but it fits all her other book curses!

Also, JKR mentioned the screaming book in an interview:

http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/...und-mzimba.htm

CoS DVD Interview

Steve Kloves, Screenwriter: Yeah, well one thing that you learn about movies is that the thing that you're more worried about often is the thing that's not a problem. And the thing that you don't worry about is a complete disaster. So I've found, it's funny because you're talking about the scares in the movie. I know the thing that terrified my son the most in the first movie was opening the book, and the book screaming. And I think it was because it was something he could identify with. Which is, he could take a book off the shelf, and open it, and there might be a face in there screaming. He wasn't scared by the other things at all.

JKR: But I think I wrote that, those are the sort of details that I write because, that would scare me. I read all the time and to have to just open something and have it shriek at me.



__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon

Last edited by silver ink pot; May 28th, 2007 at 1:23 am.
  #66  
Old May 28th, 2007, 1:16 am
anabel's Avatar
anabel  Undisclosed.gif anabel is offline
Member of the Order
 
Joined: 4991 days
Location: Godric's Hollow
Posts: 9,184
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
"Puckered Brow"/"Heavy Brow" - not much difference.
puckeredAmerican Heritage Dictionary
puck·er (pŭk'ər) Pronunciation Key
v. puck·ered, puck·er·ing, puck·ers

v. tr.
To gather into small wrinkles or folds: puckered my lips; puckered the curtains.

v. intr.
To become gathered, contracted, and wrinkled.

n.

1. A wrinkle or wrinkled part, as in tightly stitched cloth.
2. A facial expression in which the lips are tightly pulled together and pushed outward.
3. A tart flavor that causes one's lips to pucker: the pucker of lemon.


heavy1. of great weight; hard to lift or carry: a heavy load.
2. of great amount, quantity, or size; extremely large; massive: a heavy vote; a heavy snowfall.
3. of great force, intensity, turbulence, etc.: a heavy sea.
4. of more than the usual or average weight: a heavy person; heavy freight.
5. having much weight in proportion to bulk; being of high specific gravity: a heavy metal.
6. of major import; grave; serious: a heavy offense.
7. deep or intense; profound: a heavy thinker; heavy slumber.
8. Military.
a. thickly armed or equipped with guns of large size. Compare heavy cruiser.
b. (of guns) of the more powerful sizes: heavy weapons. Compare heavy artillery.
9. hard to bear; burdensome; harsh; oppressive: heavy taxes.
10. hard to cope with; trying; difficult: a heavy task.
11. being as indicated to an unusually great degree: a heavy buyer.
12. broad, thick, or coarse; not delicate: heavy lines drawn in charcoal.
13. weighted or laden: air heavy with moisture.
14. fraught; loaded; charged: words heavy with meaning.
15. depressed with trouble or sorrow; showing sorrow; sad: a heavy heart.
16. without vivacity or interest; ponderous; dull: a heavy style.
17. slow in movement or action; clumsy: a heavy walk.
18. loud and deep; sonorous: a heavy sound.
19. (of the sky) overcast or cloudy.
20. exceptionally dense in substance; insufficiently raised or leavened; thick: heavy doughnuts.
21. (of food) not easily digested.
22. being in a state of advanced pregnancy; nearing childbirth: heavy with child; heavy with young.
23. having a large capacity, capable of doing rough work, or having a large output: a heavy truck.
24. producing or refining basic materials, as steel or coal, used in manufacturing: heavy industry.
25. sober, serious, or somber: a heavy part in a drama.
26. Chemistry. of or pertaining to an isotope of greater than normal atomic weight, as heavy hydrogen or heavy oxygen, or to a compound containing such an element, as heavy water.
27. Slang.
a. very good; excellent.
b. very serious or important: a really heavy relationship.
28. Prosody. (of a syllable)
a. stressed.
b. long.

I'd better get hold of some Sherlock Holmes books to find some more clues!


__________________
So long and thanks for all the fish!
  #67  
Old May 28th, 2007, 1:59 am
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5408 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 57
Posts: 9,778
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

JKR has called her story a mystery, and also said she was flattered when an interviewer compared her series with Sherlock Holmes.

puckered = wrinkled = "parchmentlike"?

library
c.1374, from Anglo-Fr. librarie, from O.Fr. librairie "collection of books," noun use of adj. librarius "concerning books," from L. librarium "chest for books," from liber (gen. libri) "book, paper, parchment," originally "the inner bark of trees," probably a derivative of PIE base *leub(h)- "to strip, to peel" (see leaf). The equivalent word in most Romance languages now means "bookseller's shop." Librarian is from 1713; earlier form was library-keeper (1647).

It's in Irma's very skin ~ like love.


__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon
  #68  
Old May 28th, 2007, 2:36 am
Bscorp's Avatar
Bscorp  Undisclosed.gif Bscorp is offline
Seventh Year
 
Joined: 4085 days
Posts: 1,502
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

I do like the Parchment metaphors for Pince. I don't think it's necessary to cite the more obvious definitions, however. We don't really need to define the meaning of "Heavy" to make the connection but thanks! I think SIP's connection to the Pince-nez woman in that Holmes story is also a nice intertextual reference. This is another example of perceptual and conceptual imagery.

Now, if we could get back to "Assuming" that Irma Pince = Eileen Prince. ....

I am curious, does anyone think the Augerey ("also known as the Irish Phoenix") is a literal Phoenix or is the "also known as" indicate this is a sort of nickname for that bird? I have been debating this in my mind. I do think It serves up as a wonderful metaphor for Pince/Prince character in any event, much like Fawkes is a metaphor for Dumbledore, but I wonder if the bird itself- is an actual phoenix and will we see one in Deathly Hallows?


  #69  
Old May 28th, 2007, 3:39 am
hwyla  Female.gif hwyla is offline
Registered Animagus
 
Joined: 4813 days
Location: Sev's Wine Cellar
Age: 59
Posts: 4,552
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Well - a question then - I don't know where it is in any of the books, but in a google search this book showed up:

Why I Didn't Die When the Augerey Cried by Gulliver Pokeby (Little Red Books, 1824)

It was listed under Magical Creatures - right after:

Handbook of Hippogriff Psychology and
Fowl or Foul? A Study of Hippogriff Brutality

Does anyone know where it appears in the HP books? Was it a Magical Creatures textbook or a library book? It would be interesting to find out if all 3 books were mentioned together, since Snape is associated with a hippogriff attack?

The only other Magical Creatures books are (I think) about Dragons - which brings us back to Draco - the only other person we've seen attacked by a hippogriff. And as I've said before - I believe JKR has used Dragons to symbolize protective love - specifically of the familial kind.

---- edit to add -----

one other Magical Creature book HAS been mentioned - the one about Werewolves (Cold Snout, Warm Heart?) - not that the book pertains here - just that I was incorrect before.


__________________
When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.

Last edited by hwyla; May 28th, 2007 at 3:41 am.
  #70  
Old May 28th, 2007, 5:26 am
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5408 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 57
Posts: 9,778
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp
I am curious, does anyone think the Augerey ("also known as the Irish Phoenix") is a literal Phoenix or is the "also known as" indicate this is a sort of nickname for that bird? I have been debating this in my mind. I do think It serves up as a wonderful metaphor for Pince/Prince character in any event, much like Fawkes is a metaphor for Dumbledore, but I wonder if the bird itself- is an actual phoenix and will we see one in Deathly Hallows?
What's interesting is that the Augurey is associated with "moaning" and a "heart-rending cry," while a red Phoenix is associated with music. Yet both are associated with "tears," since an Augurey has a "tear-shaped nest."

Fawkes is associated with Fire, while an Augurey is associated with rain, and only flies in a heavy downpour. That sounds very Slytherin to me, with the water imagery.

The colors are "green and black" which are certainly colors associated with Snape.

I love the idea of Madame Pince being like an Augurey, since the same language is used to describe them - the "underfed" and "vulture" parts, lol:

"A thin and mournful-looking bird, somewhat like a small and underfed vulture"

The feathers "are useless as quills because they repel ink." I wonder what JKR is getting at with that statement? That makes me wonder if they would be used as a wand core, the way the Phoenix Feathers are?


Hwyla: In Fantastic Beasts, there are two footnotes about Augureys:

Fantastic Beasts, page 3

1. Uric the Oddball is known to have slept in a room containing no fewer than fifty pet Aurureys. During one particularly wet winter, Uric became convinced by the moaning of his Augureys that he had died and was now a ghost. His subsequent attempts to walk through the walls of his house resulted in what his biographer Radolphus Pittiman describes as a "concussion of ten days' duration."

2. See Why I Didn't Die When the Augurey Cried by Gilliver Pokeby, 1824 (Little Red Books).


__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon
  #71  
Old May 28th, 2007, 8:46 am
Bscorp's Avatar
Bscorp  Undisclosed.gif Bscorp is offline
Seventh Year
 
Joined: 4085 days
Posts: 1,502
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

I might as well add (because it's late and I can't sleep,) the quotation from the source I cited on page one about the augurey and the Rain Bird. This is from "The Book of Imaginary Beings : Fantastic Zoology" by J.L. Borges. An actual book, originally published circa 1957, recently republished with a new edition I was surprised to discover in my school's bookstore.

Quote:
The Rain Bird:
When rain is needed, Chinese farmers have at their disposal besides the dragon-the bird called the shang yang.

It has only one leg. Long ago, children hopped up and down on one foot, wrinkling their brows and repeating: "It will thunder, it will rain, 'cause the shang yang's here again!"
The tradition runs that the bird drew water from the rivers with its beak and blew it out as rain on the thirsting fields. An ancient wizard had tamed it and used to carry it perched on his sleeve. Historians tell us that it once paraded back and forth before the throne of the Prince of Ch'i, hopping about and flapping its wings. The Prince, greatly taken aback, sent his chief minister to the Court of Lu to consult Confucius. The Sage foretold that the shang yang would cause the whole countryside and nearby regions to be flooded unless dikes and channels were built at once. The Prince was not deaf to the Sage's warning, and so in his domain countless damage and disaster were avoided. The Rain Bird
Rowling's "Augurey" is an underfed vulture that foretells "bad weather" ie rain, and was domesticate by wizards. But the word "Augurey" is most likely derived from Augury Which is divination by the Druid priests that relied on using birds. (re: Eileen= "Avis" and the "Flight of the Prince.")

This is purely my own personal speculation, of course, but the name Shang Yang got me thinking of the philosophy of Yin Yang. Although I can't tell if the original name for this bird had anything to do with the Yin Yang concept at all, it would be interesting if Jo adapted the "Shang Yang" for her series to give the Phoenix a Yin Yang duality.
Quote:
Yin (Chinese: 陰 or 阴; Hanyu Pinyin: yīn; literally "shady place, north slope, south bank (river); cloudy, overcast") is the dark element: it is passive, dark, feminine, downward-seeking, and corresponds to the night.

Yang (陽 or 阳; yáng; "sunny place, south slope, north bank (river); sunshine") is the bright element: it is active, light, masculine, upward-seeking and corresponds to the daytime.

Yin is often symbolized by water or earth, while yang is symbolized by fire or wind.(wikipedia)
According to Borges, The Rain Bird only has one leg. To me - a one legged bird seems... incomplete and unbalanced. So... Maybe the "Augurey" is the "Yin"- to the Phoenix's "Yang." This would echo the theme of Hero and Anti-hero (Potter/Snape.)

Just some ideas. In any event, I would strongly encourage anyone to follow the link provided and check out the preface to this book (as well as the rest of it- all free to read on line!) In the preface, Borges explains the need for mythological archetypes in our psychology and culture with a story of a boy and the Tiger at the zoo. Harry doesn't face a tiger, but a Snake at the Zoo in Philosphers Stone. I think Rowling must have used this book as an inspiration for her own catalog of Archetypes. Here is an excerpt from the preface;

Quote:
It may be stated that all children, by definition, are explorers, and that to discover the camel is in itself no stranger than to discover a mirror or water or a staircase. [My Note: among the obstacles presented to Harry in the world of Magic, the Mirror of Erised, the Underwater task in GOF, and the ever present moving staircases of Hogwarts.]
It can also be stated that the child trusts his parents, who take him to this place full of animals. Besides, his toy tiger and the pictures of tigers in the encyclopedia have somehow taught him to look at the flesh-and-bone tiger without fear. Plato (if he were invited to join in this discussion) would tell us that the child had already seen the tiger in a primal world of archetypes, and that now on seeing the tiger he recognizes it. Schopenhauer (even more wondrously) would tell us that the child looks at the tigers without fear because he is aware that he is the tigers and the tigers are him or, more accurately, that both he and the tigers are but forms of that single essence, the Will (link to preface here).
Repeating the phrase for emphasis,
"the child looks at the tigers without fear because he is aware that he is the tigers and the tigers are him or, more accurately, that both he and the tigers are but forms of that single essence, the Will"
Or in Dumbledores words, "...Yes, but In essence divided,"


__________________
"He that wrestles with us strengthens our nerves, and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper." — Edmund Burke
“But the big ones, the Dumbledore storyline, the Snape storyline were always there because you — the series is built around those.” -J.K. Rowling

Last edited by Bscorp; May 28th, 2007 at 9:22 am.
  #72  
Old May 28th, 2007, 1:17 pm
hwyla  Female.gif hwyla is offline
Registered Animagus
 
Joined: 4813 days
Location: Sev's Wine Cellar
Age: 59
Posts: 4,552
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

So - no wonder I hadn't seen that particular book listed before - I don't have that book. I guess that the hippogriff books were not related?

What did footnote 2 refer to?

I do think both of you (Bscorp & SIP) have made great references between the Augerey and Eileen


__________________
When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.
  #73  
Old May 28th, 2007, 4:53 pm
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5408 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 57
Posts: 9,778
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Hwyla: The second footnote refers to the fact that Augureys really only wail at the approach of rain, and do not foretell death.

You should look at used bookstores for the Fantastic Beasts book - we have even found hardback copies of it now and then.

Bscorp: Wow! I will look for that book at my library, too! In the meantime, everyone can see it on the University of Iowa website, with a Picture of the Rain Bird.


Quite Vulture-Like!

And your ideas about Yin/Yang - Augurey/Phoenix - are great!

I was just free associating this in my mind and came up with:

Pince - Dumbledore
Dark - Light
Fighting over the Quidditch Book - Yin/Yang - Give/Take

What is the greatest danger to a library? Fire, of course. The great Library of Alexandria in Egypt, with the knowledge of the ages, was burned down.

What better to have in a library than a bird that can shoot water out of it's mouth?

Dumbledore goes up in flames from his tomb - fire - yang.
Pince is under the black veil - "dark and hidden - yin.

These are such great ideas, Bscorp!


__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon

Last edited by silver ink pot; May 28th, 2007 at 5:15 pm.
  #74  
Old May 28th, 2007, 6:04 pm
anabel's Avatar
anabel  Undisclosed.gif anabel is offline
Member of the Order
 
Joined: 4991 days
Location: Godric's Hollow
Posts: 9,184
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Interesting picture. It looks a bit like a dodo to me. Does that mean the Prince clan will become extinct?
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo
The etymology of the word dodo is unclear. It may be related to dodaars ("plump-arse"), the Dutch name of the Little Grebe. The connection may have been made because of similar feathers of the hind end or because both animals were ungainly. However, the Dutch are also known to have called the bird the walghvogel ("loathsome bird" or "nauseating fowl") in reference to its taste. This last name was used for the first time in the journal of vice-admiral Wybrand van Warwijck who visited and named the island Mauritius in 1598. Dodo or Dodaerse is recorded in captain Willem van West-Zanen's journal four years later,[1] but it is unclear whether he was the first one to use this name, because before the Dutch, the Portuguese had already visited the island in 1507, but did not settle permanently.

According to Encarta Dictionary and Chambers Dictionary of Etymology, "dodo" comes from Portuguese doudo (currently doido) meaning "fool" or "crazy".[2] However, the present Portuguese name for the bird, dodô, is of English origin. The Portuguese word doudo or doido may itself be a loanword from Old English (cf. English "dolt").

Yet another possibility is "that 'dodo' was an onomatopoeic approximation of the bird's own call, a two-note pigeony sound like 'doo-doo'."[3]
"Loathsome bird" or "Nauseating fowl" ... interesting associations. So the Augury may or may not look like a dodo, which is extinct, ie almost mythical ... and Pince is Vulture-like while Snape has a large "beak".


__________________
So long and thanks for all the fish!

Last edited by anabel; May 28th, 2007 at 6:08 pm.
  #75  
Old May 29th, 2007, 12:41 am
Snape_Redemptor  Undisclosed.gif Snape_Redemptor is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 4183 days
Location: In Memory
Posts: 198
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I don't remember reading it here . . . if Eileen Prince was under Dumbledore's protection, perhaps as secret-keeper, with Dumbledore's death, Eileen loses that protection. She may no longer be safe at Hogwarts. What are thoughts on that?


__________________
Dark and difficult times lay ahead. Soon we must all make the choice between what is right and what is easy.
--Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore
  #76  
Old May 29th, 2007, 1:29 am
Chris's Avatar
Chris  Undisclosed.gif Chris is offline
Custodian of Hades Vault
 
Joined: 4142 days
Location: Monoc Securities
Posts: 4,653
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Considering that a lot of students could see and touch Irma Pince, I don't think the hiding was done with the Fidelius charm. I think that Eileen Prince was hidden in plain sight, so to say, with a very effective disguise. All the students who had seen Irma Pince would have had to been told the secret, and we have no indication that's the case. I do believe, however, that Irma Pince is related to Snape in some way, shape, or form; and the most likely candidate is his mother.


__________________
RLF_Icons (signature)

In case I forget: Opinions posted in the US Political Discussion forum are posted as a member and not as a moderator


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will tell you the truth. - Oscar Wilde

We're all human, aren't we? Every human life is worth the same, and worth saving. - Kingsley

Sustainability should be a part of what we do every day.
  #77  
Old May 29th, 2007, 1:33 am
hwyla  Female.gif hwyla is offline
Registered Animagus
 
Joined: 4813 days
Location: Sev's Wine Cellar
Age: 59
Posts: 4,552
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Well, IF Albus was her SK (as in Fidelius Charm) then the secret is safe, since it remains a secret that the SK takes to their death. The actual difficulty would be in how to tell others the secret with the SK dead (same problem with Harry's home at #12)

So, for Irma (if she's Eileen), as long as Minerva isn't going to throw her out of the library, she's safe.


__________________
When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.
  #78  
Old May 29th, 2007, 3:35 am
Bscorp's Avatar
Bscorp  Undisclosed.gif Bscorp is offline
Seventh Year
 
Joined: 4085 days
Posts: 1,502
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

I had wondered if Dumbledore put a transfiguration and/or a protection spell on Eileen, would the spell be ended with his death ( like the full body bind on Harry?) We don't see "Irma" at the funeral because she is hiding underneath a long veil.

But I would think that DD would be foresighted enough to make the protection extend past his death. Who knows. But if we see Irma go missing in the beginning of Deathly Hallows....

If there is a SK involved I would think it would be someone who would hold the secret of her past identity. I wondered if Filch could be a secret keeper for Pince.


__________________
"He that wrestles with us strengthens our nerves, and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper." — Edmund Burke
“But the big ones, the Dumbledore storyline, the Snape storyline were always there because you — the series is built around those.” -J.K. Rowling

Last edited by Bscorp; May 29th, 2007 at 3:40 am.
  #79  
Old May 29th, 2007, 6:32 am
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5408 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 57
Posts: 9,778
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Hwyla is correct - JKR said if a Secret Keeper dies, the secret dies with him. So . . . if Dumbledore was Pince/Prince's SK, then she is totally safe now, and can only be found by someone to whom Dumbledore gave the location.

I suspect that is why Trelawney disappears toward the end of HBP and is not mentioned at the funeral, though Harry does mention "teachers." But that is for another thread.

We have someone under that black veil with Filch. If Pince was hidden by the Fidelius when Dumbledore died, was that Snape under the Veil?

I don't believe Filch could be a SK, since he is a squib and it is a magical contract. It would be too easy to get the truth out of him since he couldn't fight back with magic of his own.


__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon
  #80  
Old May 29th, 2007, 7:56 am
Sevstrueluve  Female.gif Sevstrueluve is offline
Student
 
Joined: 4195 days
Location: The dungeons
Posts: 112
Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Madam Pince is described a few times as being like a vulture. The vulture, in ancient times, particularly ancient Egypt, represents the goddess Nekhbet, and is the symbol of motherhood and also of royalty. Could the librarian be a relative of Severus? Perhaps his mother, Eileen Prince ? Speculation has it that it could be, the character's age would be correct. Irma Pince could be an anagram for "I'm a Prince". Just move the "r" over to the word Prince.
" The vulture-like countenance of Madam Pince appeared round the corner, her sunken cheeks, her skin like parchment and her long hooked nose illuminated unflatteringly by the lamp she was carrying ... "HBP With this description one can see a resemblance to the Potions Master Severus Snape.
One of the many themes to the septology is maternal love. We see this with Tom Riddle and the lack of with his mother, Merope Gaunt; with the Weasley clan and their mother, Molly; Draco and his mother Narcissa are just as close as the Weasleys; then there is Lily's sacrifice for Harry. Why not with Severus and his mother ? After all they both probably suffered abuse from his muggle father, Tobias Snape.
Let's consider for a moment that the woman he was in love with actually loved him back. But, because of his fascination with the Dark Arts that relationship ended. Perhaps the relationship was quite serious ? i.e: engagement. Could that be why Severus hates James so much ? This is my theory on who loved Severus. It should have been him, not Potter married to her. Harry should have been his. Instead he was the product of the Potters' marriage.
He was loved. By her. By his mother. This theory would tie together so many parallels between Severus and Harry. Harry's mother died for him. I believe that Eileen was possibly near death because of Severus, or at least threatened. Thus, she was hidden by the Headmaster. Which would also tie in very well to the Irish Phoenix theory. That Eileen is a type of phoenix rising from the ashes and being born again. Eileen Prince "dying" and Irma Pince being "born."
This could also tie in to why Snape continues to protect Harry... his conflicting feelings. Maybe he has fatherly feelings about Harry (due to being in love with Lily), but every time he looks at Harry, he only sees James in his face.


These were in the original thread as different posts. I cobined them to be more effective as one. They pretty much tie into what Bscorp has been saying. And ties a lot of her theories together.


 
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Harry Potter Archives > Divination Studies

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 5:03 pm.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.