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ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.



 
 
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  #81  
Old May 29th, 2007, 10:58 pm
Snape_Redemptor  Undisclosed.gif Snape_Redemptor is offline
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla View Post
Well, IF Albus was her SK (as in Fidelius Charm) then the secret is safe, since it remains a secret that the SK takes to their death. The actual difficulty would be in how to tell others the secret with the SK dead (same problem with Harry's home at #12)

So, for Irma (if she's Eileen), as long as Minerva isn't going to throw her out of the library, she's safe.
Yeah, you're right about the SK, I forgot JKR had straightened that out. Thanks to silver ink pot also for the reminder, also the tantalizing thought that it might have been Snape under that long black veil at Dumbledore's funeral.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevstrueluve View Post
Let's consider for a moment that the woman he was in love with actually loved him back. But, because of his fascination with the Dark Arts that relationship ended. Perhaps the relationship was quite serious ? i.e: engagement. Could that be why Severus hates James so much ? This is my theory on who loved Severus. It should have been him, not Potter married to her. Harry should have been his. Instead he was the product of the Potters' marriage.
He was loved. By her. By his mother.

This could also tie in to why Snape continues to protect Harry... his conflicting feelings. Maybe he has fatherly feelings about Harry (due to being in love with Lily), but every time he looks at Harry, he only sees James in his face.

These were in the original thread as different posts. I cobined them to be more effective as one. They pretty much tie into what Bscorp has been saying. And ties a lot of her theories together.
I wish I could remember where I just (recently) read this theory about the extent of that relationship. It just increases the tragedy of Snape's whole confusing story almost unbearably. You can really understand the bitter wracking pain that seems to infuse his life and his relationship with Harry. That pretty much leaves only his mother to love him. And if it is Ima Pince, it must be horrible for Snape to have to maintain that kind of abject secrecy, one more thing to be misunderstood about. It would show a very human and touching attachment that Snape is never suspected of.

Love your signature picture by the way, very enticing poetry!


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Last edited by Snape_Redemptor; May 29th, 2007 at 11:02 pm.
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  #82  
Old May 29th, 2007, 11:42 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

i too have my own theories on snape being in love with lily. i dont think she perticularily liked him back though or sirius/lupin might have dropped a hint or said something. IM thinking it was a one-sided thing, also, especially in the 6th book when harry finds out that snape was the one who passed on the prophecy to voldemort and dumbledore says tht he felt horrible when he found out whose death he wascontributing to harry gets outraged b/c of the obvious hate b/w snape and james and that snape would have loved to kill his father . I think dumbledores words make sense in which snape feels guilty and remorseful if we look at it in a perspective that he was in love with lilly potter.


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  #83  
Old May 29th, 2007, 11:47 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

hem hem

Snape loving Lily is not a permitted topic here. According to Morgoth, it may be discussed in the Triumvirate threads, but nowhere else.


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  #84  
Old May 30th, 2007, 12:23 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

oopps~~


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  #85  
Old May 30th, 2007, 5:37 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

I am going to be away from my computer for the next week on a much needed vacation but i just wanted to thank everyone for the feedback!

We do have to stay away from Lily/Snape for this thread. But If there is anything to be revealed about that relationship - and IF Eileen shows up in Deathly Hallows, perhaps she will lend some light on their history- even if briefly. I couldn't think of anyone more qualified than Snape's mother to mention who he might have hung out with as a kid

Did I mention that the moment in OOP that Irma screams at Harry and Ginny over "CHOCOLATE IN THE LIBRARY!" that it's actually a chocolate Easter Egg that Ginny had?

1.) Easter is the day of resurrection of Jesus- The egg is symbolic of the grave and life renewed. Life breaking out of the egg...etc.

2.) Ginny is giving Harry an easter Egg, which is symbolic of fertility - ahem- it means they're an item. This foreshadows Harry/Ginny.

But it also reminds me of the screeching egg in GOF- to which Snape came running.


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  #86  
Old May 30th, 2007, 6:24 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
Did I mention that the moment in OotP that Irma screams at Harry and Ginny over "CHOCOLATE IN THE LIBRARY!" that it's actually a chocolate Easter Egg that Ginny had?

1.) Easter is the day of resurrection of Jesus- The egg is symbolic of the grave and life renewed. Life breaking out of the egg...etc.

2.) Ginny is giving Harry an easter Egg, which is symbolic of fertility - ahem- it means they're an item. This foreshadows Harry/Ginny.

But it also reminds me of the screeching egg in GOF- to which Snape came running.
Easter makes me think of the Easter flower, the Easter Lily. Which could reference Death giving itself for Life. Mother and son ? Reference to Lily/Baby Harry or foreshadowing Eileen/Severus ?


  #87  
Old June 1st, 2007, 7:52 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
The description of the library in this scene is very eerie. Harry thinks he can hear the books whispering around him (which reminds me of the moment in OOP when he hears voices whispering from behind the veil.) He picks up a book, opens it, what does it do? It "screeches!" Presumably this is a hex put on the book by MMe Pince, so this is another example of "screeching" used to protect something or as a call to alarm and of Snape following up on it- via Filch.
Great observation about the book being hexed by Madam Pince! Great research in general.


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  #88  
Old June 7th, 2007, 8:30 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

(Thanks Irmapince. )

I am rereading PS/SS now, I thought I would quot the passage now that i have the book on me. The chapter is ch 12, "Mirror Of Erised" (p206 US) in the same chapter where MMe Pince ejects Harry from the restricted section.
"The library was pitch black and very eerie"..."Maybe he was imagining it but maybe not, but he thought a faint whispering was coming from the books, as thought they knew someone was there who shouldn't be."
(Harry reaches for a large, heavy, black and silver volume and it screams)
"a piercing blood curling shriek split the silence– the book was screaming! harry snapped it shut but the shriek went on and on one high, unbroken, earsplitting note."
(emphasis mine -- Jo uses to references to "split" here.)

Filch approaches immediately. Harry ducks Filch -runs up the corridor where Filch brings Severus Snape and Harry ducks into the the room with the Mirror of Erised.

I am taken by reading into this idea with reference to the chapter titles...
Ch. 11 "Quidditch," (Quiddities) I see a subtext of generational family connections, Harry is referenced as a "secret weapon" that is to be hidden. and Snape takes the book "Quidditch Through the Ages" from Harry.

Ch. 12 "The Mirror of Erised" where Harry sees himself in the Mirror with his parents still with him. He finds solace in the image of his entire family and not just his mom and dad but generations back- his "whole" family. The desire to hold onto them and have them with him forever keeps him in front of that mirror until Dumbledore finds him, saying to Harry, "strange how nearsighted being invisible can make you." Dumbledore also tell Harry that "the happiest man on earth" would look into that mirror "and see himself exactly as he is." (self actualized- self aware.)

Then we have Ch. 13 "Nicolas Flamel." The trio discover the story behind the Sorcerer's Stone and what it does-granting immortality. Harry "faces Snape" as Snape referees Quidditch the he sees Snape's confrontation with Quirrell and misreads the scene, assuming Quirrell is being bullied by Snape and Snape is the culprit trying to steal the stone (Harry sees the mirrored opposite of the truth.)

From Quidditch , to The Mirror Of Erised, and Nicholas Flamel, is seems to me we have 3 chapters that reference some kind of transfer of information and safety to /from or around the library- central to the theme of the books. Family, loss, and Immortality

I don't know, these are just some thoughts I'm honing in on


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  #89  
Old June 7th, 2007, 5:54 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Welcome back, Bscorp!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
I am rereading PS/SS now, I thought I would quot the passage now that i have the book on me. The chapter is ch 12, "Mirror Of Erised" (p206 US) in the same chapter where MMe Pince ejects Harry from the restricted section.

"The library was pitch black and very eerie"..."Maybe he was imagining it but maybe not, but he thought a faint whispering was coming from the books, as thought they knew someone was there who shouldn't be."
(Harry reaches for a large, heavy, black and silver volume and it screams)

"a piercing blood curling shriek split the silence– the book was screaming! harry snapped it shut but the shriek went on and on one high, unbroken, earsplitting note."
It's interesting that the book Harry chose was "black and silver" - sort of Pince/Snape colors, and then it screams.

But what I wondered when re-reading that is whether the Harry Filter/Narrator is giving us Harry's perception of what happens, but not the reality. I know that the book was probably cursed to scream, but Harry thinks the books are first "whispering."

Isn't it more likely that people were whispering behind a shelf? Pince and Filch perhaps?

And the book screams, but then the scream continues after he closes the book! I never noticed that before, but is a woman screaming too, after being startled?

You almost wonder if there is an Augurey around, too, with all that screaming going on, lol.


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  #90  
Old June 7th, 2007, 6:29 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Isn't it more likely that people were whispering behind a shelf? Pince and Filch perhaps?
That's an interesting thought. However, I am pretty sure Filch comes from the other direction. I see the whispering as more symbolic or that maybe there actually are books in that section that so actually whisper. (I wish I had OOP with me , I would love to compare this passage to the one in the Death Room at the MOM where Harry hears voices beyond the veil. ) But if some other presence were behind the shelves- that would would mimic the moment in HBP where Draco and Pince are both over hearing Hermione's comments about "The half-Blood Prince" and Filch.

It seems to me the library's restricted sections is portrayed almost like a graveyard of sorts. I've heard of books being the voices from beyond the grave and some people have personified books in such a way as a reading them is the "speaking to the dead." I think there is a definite analogy between the library and some kind of key to the "otherworld."


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  #91  
Old June 7th, 2007, 7:40 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Someone above has Severus written in italics. Why? Do you think his name has something to do with splitting?

And why is silver the color of Irma Pince?

Maybe it is all about the library because Hermione finds an article about Eileen there in HBP.


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  #92  
Old June 7th, 2007, 11:55 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
But what I wondered when re-reading that is whether the Harry Filter/Narrator is giving us Harry's perception of what happens, but not the reality. I know that the book was probably cursed to scream, but Harry thinks the books are first "whispering."

Isn't it more likely that people were whispering behind a shelf? Pince and Filch perhaps?
It was the middle of the night. Harry was carrying a lantern. Surely if there was anyone else in the library they would know he was there and either reveal themselves, or stop whispering and hide!

I've always thought that the whispering and the scream were marvellous ways to make the books themselves full of Dark magic and evil! It creates the right atmosphere for the Restricted Section. And while it's possible that Madam Pince had put "alarm" spells on the books, I think it's more likely that they were too Dark and powerful in themselves to require little protective charms from the school librarian! The books themselves proclaimed that they were evil and forbidden - it was a very well-written scene!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
It seems to me the library's restricted sections is portrayed almost like a graveyard of sorts. I've heard of books being the voices from beyond the grave and some people have personified books in such a way as a reading them is the "speaking to the dead." I think there is a definite analogy between the library and some kind of key to the "otherworld."
I was thinking just before I read this, that the whispering might be similar to the shadows of Voldemort's victims which emerged from his wand in the graveyard! Perhaps the whispering comes from the books' victims!


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  #93  
Old June 8th, 2007, 12:48 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
It seems to me the library's restricted sections is portrayed almost like a graveyard of sorts. I've heard of books being the voices from beyond the grave and some people have personified books in such a way as a reading them is the "speaking to the dead." I think there is a definite analogy between the library and some kind of key to the "otherworld."
Those are great points - the books are like those objects in which a wizard has "put part of himself," so to speak. Not that they are all horcruxes, but it is interesting that in Book 2, we have the diary that is!

Quote:
Originally Posted by anabel View Post
It was the middle of the night. Harry was carrying a lantern. Surely if there was anyone else in the library they would know he was there and either reveal themselves, or stop whispering and hide!
Of course you are right about the lamp, and on reading it again, I'm struck by the idea that Harry thinks he might be "imagining" the whispering. On the other hand, Harry might be hearing people's voices beyond the wall, in which case someone could have heard the scream but not seen the light of the lamp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anabel View Post
I think it's more likely that they were too Dark and powerful in themselves to require little protective charms from the school librarian!
I wouldn't call Irma's spells "little." She's pretty fierce. And Dumbledore writes in the Intro to Quidditch Through the Ages that there are "library book spells" and "jinxes":

QTTA, Introduction
Although I have removed the usual library-book spells from this volume, I cannot promise that every trace has gone. Madam Pince has been known to add unusual jinxes to the books in her care. I myself doodled absent-mindedly on a copy of Theories of Transubstantial Transfiguration last year and next moment found the book beating me fiercely around the head. Please be careful how you treat this book. Do not rip out the pages. Do not drop it in the bath. I cannot promise that Madam Pince will not swoop down on you, wherever you are, and demand a heavy fine.



And she had put some type of jinx Quidditch Through the Ages:

A warning: If you rip, tear, shred, bend, fold, deface, disfigure, smear, smudge, throw, drop or in any other manner damage, mistreat or show lack of respect towards this book, the consequences will be as awful as it is within my power to make them
~ Irma Pince, Hogwarts Librarian


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  #94  
Old June 8th, 2007, 1:37 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

I actually think the books' whisperings are a type of ward. Earlier, when he first went up to the Restircted Section he felt his neck 'prickle'.

I know it hasn't been proven yet but there are certain times in the books when Harry is specific that his neck prickled. The Restricted Section is one instance - another one is Ollivander's Wand Shop and the last place is that alley near Harry's house (happens twice there - once in PoA when he sees Padfoot there and again when the Dementors enter the alley)

I have always believed Harry is feeling the 'wards' of some sort. That the wands ARE literally checking him out (Wand chooses the Wizard), that the Books ARE checking to see if he's a NEWT student and that something similar is set up at that alley (I never have decided whether it was put up by the Order or by the Ministry)

Anyways, the wand shop and and the Restricted Section are tied together by the mention that the Wand Shop is like a library. I think the books ARE whispering.


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Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.
  #95  
Old June 8th, 2007, 5:11 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla View Post
I know it hasn't been proven yet but there are certain times in the books when Harry is specific that his neck prickled. (...)
I have always believed Harry is feeling the 'wards' of some sort. That the wands ARE literally checking him out (Wand chooses the Wizard), that the Books ARE checking to see if he's a NEWT student and that something similar is set up at that alley (I never have decided whether it was put up by the Order or by the Ministry)
Anyways, the wand shop and and the Restricted Section are tied together by the mention that the Wand Shop is like a library. I think the books ARE whispering.
You mention his neck prickling and that reminds me of the passage from POA when Boggart Snape turns into a Mummy then a Banshee who lets out a shriek that "made the hair on the back of Harry's neck stand up on end." The banshee is also a ward for the family they belong too.


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Old June 8th, 2007, 6:27 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Holy cow!
I have just read this entire post (thank goodness it isn't 95 pages long of version 87) and I'm more or less blown away. I'd vaguely heard the rumor that Irma Pince was Snapes mom a while ago and knew of the I'm a prince anagram, but never really looked into further because I thought it a bit random.
However about 10 lines into the first post on this thread by bscorp I was hooked! (like snapes nose) lol (no pun intended until i re-read this before posting) All you guys have put together an amazing theory that I now whole-heartedly believe ! There are so many examples of the links that i NEVER saw or put together (which really shouldn't surprise me anymore). but I think this is the only theory I've been totally converted to that I didn't have at least an inkling of it happening on my own).

I had at least wondered why there was so many references to Snape in the vulture hat throughout the book (JKR doesn't do stuff like that for no reason)!

While I have nothing to add that will further this thread,I just wanted to say that I feel like there is a definite possible tie-in to the whole story....the power of the mother figure is a recurrent theme (arguably one of the more important themes in the book imo) and this definitly relates to that. Also for all the people in the "snape is good" camp (which I am in) this gives the first truely plausible explanation for DD's trust-at least that I have read. I know we have been given clues all along to whatever that reason is because DH is a book about Harry and not Snape (as someone pointed out) and thus it stands to reason that we wont' be introduced to something totally random in the last book. After reading your posts I feel like Pince could definitly have a role in the horcrux hunt. Whether she pulls a random book from Spinners end on horcruxes or tiptoes to the highest dustiest shelf in Hogwarts that's conviently hidden by a potted plant or just has some random info to impart I think she'll play a role.

My (*vulture*) hats are off to you folks, Pam2002, bscorp, and others !


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Old June 8th, 2007, 2:47 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCSUCarrie View Post
Holy cow!

However about 10 lines into the first post on this thread by bscorp I was hooked! (like snapes nose) lol (no pun intended until i re-read this before posting)

My (*vulture*) hats are off to you folks, Pam2002, bscorp, and others !
I support the theory too, but not is as funny terms


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  #98  
Old June 8th, 2007, 3:42 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Thanks for the compliments NCSUCarrie and chparadise! I'm glad people are finding this thread even this far into it. I am flattered that you read the whole thing. I've seen readers dismiss this idea for opposing reasons, ranging from "too easy" to "too far fetched." I think the most objections come from people assuming that the revelation would overwhelm the story line, i.e. "It's not all about Snape!" or that it wouldn't have any real purpose. i.e. "But what difference would it make!" Again very opposite rationals about the same idea.

But I think you're right Carrie. If this theory holds true, the clues have all been laid out for people to find when they re-read the series for the umpteenth time after Deathly Hallows. Rowling would just have to have one scene in which the connection is made and Pince could help Harry with a simple gesture that would redefine the context of Snape's character, his realationship to his mother and possibly Harry's view of Snape's motives.

*sigh* 42 days..... 8 hours and 34 minutes... 33......

Mind you, though I want Snape to "be good," I am open to a more complex and conflicted interpretations of the character in the end. I would be very surprised if he were explicitly portrayed as some kind of grand "hero." I don't think that is the direction the story is headed. However, I don't believe he's beyond some kind of redemption- even if it's just in the reader's mind. I would like to see Snape fleshed out just a bit more with some understanding of his personal motivations and WHY Dumbledore trusted Snape.

Now, I may be contradicting myself here but I don't think the revelation of "Pince=Prince" necessarily proves Snape to be one thing or the other, which give the idea more credence IMO. Even "bad" guys have Moms, and some of the worst ones really do love their Mothers with all their heart.(Ex: Barty crouch calling out to his mother during his trial- then staring Snape down in GOF) I do think this theory allows Snape a human side and some sympathy. Maybe his motivations are something that Harry and readers can identify with which would really round out the series.

In the end whether Snape is "good" or "bad" will most likely still be up to personal interpretation - Mom or no Mom.


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Last edited by Bscorp; June 8th, 2007 at 3:45 pm.
  #99  
Old June 12th, 2007, 12:00 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

What a breakthrough in theory and research...
nice work friend...

see, this could be possible, but I think this will live only for a few chapters and not the whole book...

Our main character has lots to do...

but hey, I salute you for the very very INTELLIGENT research...


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Old June 12th, 2007, 3:43 pm
charlessnider  Male.gif charlessnider is offline
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

If you re-arrange the letters to Irma Pince, you can spell out "I am Prince."
What's the importance of Snape's mother going undercover in disguise as the HogWarts Librarian however?


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