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ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.



 
 
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  #161  
Old July 8th, 2007, 1:18 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Lovely...just lovely. I really like this theory. It explains so much. Particularly why Dumbeldore trusts Snape so implicitly. He was so certain of where Snape loyalties lie that he wouldn't hear anything against him. Plus, I don't buy Dumbeldore's story that Snape felt guilty about Harry's parents. That is a weak argument considering how he felf about James. Okay maybe he felt something about Lily, but I really don't think he would risk his own life being a spy just because he kind of had a crush on Lily. Rubbish. Now if he was trying to protect his own family, well, that would cause anybody to take drastic measures.

This theory works out perfectly because Dumbeldore would have no reason to doubt Snape's loyalty because he has something on him.


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  #162  
Old July 8th, 2007, 7:53 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Thanks for the comments!

I have been thinking a lot lately about how Snape is expected to die in DH. It would be formula both in literary terms and unfortunately in real life that the Double Agent bites it in the end. As much as I want Snape to mysteriously disappear like some great stage magician, or just escape off to some hideaway in the Bahamas- I know it's more likely he will die. The question is will he be understood at all? Will all the questions we've been led to ask, be answered?

This may be where Eileen/Irma comes into play as a post-mortem explanation of "Severus" in a different light- as somebody's son- as someone who was loved. JKR has made a point that part of the real tragedy in murder is not to the person killed- because death itself is nothing to fear - but to the soul of the person who kills. I think this idea of things "torn" includes the living relatives of the person who kills as well. No mother would want her son to be a killer or to be remembered as a killer. I may be way off with this idea, but if Irma=Eileen I think she will serve to show the other side of things a bit.


  #163  
Old July 9th, 2007, 5:37 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Ok i was going to post this in thread asking why people thought Irma Pince was Eileen Prince but the Mods have closed that and say to post here instead so here i go.

I know this is the thread for people who think that this is the case but i just have a few questions about it

Ok so I was looking at what we know about Irma and Eileen and see if that takes us any where.

Irma Pince

The only kind of description I can find in the books (or on lexicon is) that
1 she is thin like an underfed vulture (CoS)
2 she has a shrivelled face (OotP)
3 Again she is described as vulture life (GoF)

Her age is unknown, we know she is strict and doesn’t like students and has a feather duster. She can place spells on her books so we can presume she is not a squib.


Eileen Prince

Is described in HBP as
1 Not pretty
2 cross and Sullen
3 Heavy brows
4 and a long pallid face

The only thing we know about her personality here is that she was head of the Gobstones team.

We also see someone we can presume to be Eileen Prince, in the OotP when Harry breaks into Snape’s mind all she is described as is a Cowering Women. From which many people have taken the view that Snape’s father was abusive toward his mother.

If that is true then this could have been a major reason for him becoming a death eater in believing that all Muggles are evil like his father and not deserve to live.

No knowledge about where either of Snape’s Parents are is known now.

From what we know Irma and Eileen, which is very little compared to a lot of characters, the description of the faces to me sounds quite different, but as for the rest really they could both fit a lot of characters.

The next issue is why would Dumbledore be hiding Snape’s mother? Having married a muggle I’m guessing that she wasn’t high up on the list of people Voldemort would want following him. So that leaves she was hidden in order to protect her when Snape changed sides, which would make sense id Snape wasn’t a double triple whatever spy

My logic is that as Voldemort never knew that Snape had changed sides why would Dumbledore need to hide Eileen as she wouldn’t have been in danger in fact by hiding her you would be putting Snape at a greater risk.

The other issue with the theory is Eileen’s age we know from the HBP that the potions book is nearly 50 years old which would put Eileen at the sort of age that would mean, she was at Hogwarts around the same time McGonagall was a student and while Slughorn was teaching (going on Slughorn’s memory involving Voldemort.)
Which leaves the question why have none of them suggested that was the reason Dumbledore had such trust in Snape?


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  #164  
Old July 10th, 2007, 12:07 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charmed100 View Post
Ok i was going to post this in thread asking why people thought Irma Pince was Eileen Prince but the Mods have closed that and say to post here instead so here i go.

From what we know Irma and Eileen, which is very little compared to a lot of characters, the description of the faces to me sounds quite different, but as for the rest really they could both fit a lot of characters.
Hi Charmed.
I think if you read through the first couple of pages of this thread you'll find some more detailed answers to your questions, it would be worth the read.

First of all one there is the concept of Transfiguration which Dumbledore specializes in- so the physical descriptions are not as consequential as the personality traits that Pince and Snape have in common. When DD told Draco that he could hide him and his mother "more completely than you could ever imagine" I believe he was talking about transfiguration and I believe he was speaking from experience of having done this kind of thing before. It makes sense.

There is also the idea of "Transubstantial Transfiguration" which I explain my theory about on pg.1 of this thread. Which I speculate has to do with spiritual transformation (born again kind of thing) as well as physical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charmed100 View Post
The next issue is why would Dumbledore be hiding Snape’s mother? Having married a muggle I’m guessing that she wasn’t high up on the list of people Voldemort would want following him. So that leaves she was hidden in order to protect her when Snape changed sides, which would make sense id Snape wasn’t a double triple whatever spy
This is a good question. We know that Snape was proud of his Mother's name and took on her name as well as the "half-blood" title in his youth.
We also know- citing the situation with Draco- that Voldemort will use even the family members of his own followers as bait. Voldmort is not loyal to the concept of family, and he is cruel to his own followers. So whether or not he deemed Snape as loyal is not a garauntee that Snape's family would be safe anyway.
We also know that DD claims Snape "returned" to the side of the Order before the Dark lord's fall- this action would not be without consequence on Snape's part. If his mother was still alive at that time- she would need to go into hiding in order to protect Snape.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charmed100 View Post
My logic is that as Voldemort never knew that Snape had changed sides why would Dumbledore need to hide Eileen as she wouldn’t have been in danger in fact by hiding her you would be putting Snape at a greater risk.
Because of the fact that if at anytime Voldemort ever doubted Snape's motives or loyalty his mother would be the first target. With Eileen "dead" Voldy doesn't have that as an option to use against Snape.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charmed100 View Post
The other issue with the theory is Eileen’s age we know from the HBP that the potions book is nearly 50 years old which would put Eileen at the sort of age that would mean, she was at Hogwarts around the same time McGonagall was a student and while Slughorn was teaching (going on Slughorn’s memory involving Voldemort.) Which leaves the question why have none of them suggested that was the reason Dumbledore had such trust in Snape?
They probabaly don't know. One thing we're forgetting here is that Voldemort is the most accomplished Legilimens ever known. That means if anyone knew of Eileen Prince being alive- aside from DD and Snape- Voldy could read it from that persons mind or the minds of anyone who might suspect her being alive for any reason- if they should find some evidence of her existence. This is why NO ONE can know up until the final moment when she decides for herself to step out back into the light.

Also keep in mind that it's quite possible that Eileen Prince went to school at the same time as Tom Riddle. The Prince's potions book is about 50 years old- This is the same age as Tom Riddle's Diary. I don't think this is an arbitrary number that Rowling picked out of a hat. She was making a chronological connection between Snape's Mother and Tom Riddle. I suspect Eileen Prince may know something aboutTom Riddle and perhaps about Horcruxes- which would give DD another very solid reason to hide her from Voldemort as a "secret weapon."


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Last edited by Bscorp; July 10th, 2007 at 4:36 pm.
  #165  
Old July 10th, 2007, 12:38 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

My two cents: I like this theory a lot, and I wouldn't be surprised it's true. But I'd also be surprised if JK consciously thought about every little detail / shred of support that Bscorp's dug up in this thread . (No offense, of course). I think this one has a 50/50 chance of being true...and that's a fairly high percentage to me for a HP theory, since JK is so clever .


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  #166  
Old July 10th, 2007, 1:54 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chparadise View Post
My two cents: I like this theory a lot, and I wouldn't be surprised it's true. But I'd also be surprised if JK consciously thought about every little detail / shred of support that Bscorp's dug up in this thread . (No offense, of course). I think this one has a 50/50 chance of being true...and that's a fairly high percentage to me for a HP theory, since JK is so clever .
Heh, heh. Oh I agree. I understand that 80% of this is extended speculation and reinterpretation of the text based on a single idea which - in the end- could be completely wrong. (I have a table reserved at the A.I.C.B.W. club ya know ) I just enjoy looking at in with this idea in mind.

Personally, I just see that as how art works in any form. Ofcourse there is a story being told and things that are and are not "fact" (as much as fiction can be a- fact- that is.) But I think an artist in any art form does work to some extent on a subconscious level and the audience also picks up some things on a subconscious level as well.

I think that applies to a lot of ideas that stem from this series. There is so much symbolism and metaphor and intra-textual references and classical homage to discover. I don't think that JKR could have possibly anticipated how every last detail could have been read into by millions of people from all over the world - who would then connect with each other over the internet to bounce off ideas and formulate hypothesis after hypothesis together against every written word. If she had predicted the scope of that reaction ahead of time - I doubt she could have lifted her pen to page one.

With most stories -it's only after we look back after the final explanation is "revealed" that people see all the things that lead up to that conclusion. But until that final reveal- I look at it like interpreting a dream, or Luna's visions of the clouds, how much of one's personal reading is valid is entirely up for debate. I am not speaking of course of the basic plot and the obvious "canon" aspects- but of the personal reading and interpretation of subtext that takes on a different level.

In my opinion - it just wouldn't be as good if it were predictable and all laid out in black and white. There has to be some room for fun and interpretation. Rowling certainly encourages it in the way she writes. Even the canon encourages a reinterpretation of known "facts" (ex: "mad killer sirius black") to some extent.
But the best art surprises even the artist who made it. This is a very postmodern ideal that I enjoy. I wouldn't be surprised if Rowling hasn't surprised herself just a little bit here and there.

Or... i could just be completely wrong. ...


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  #167  
Old July 10th, 2007, 2:10 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
Also keep in mind that it's quite possible that Eileen Prince went to school at the same time as Tom Riddle. The Prince's potions book is about 50 years old- This is the same age as Tom Riddle's Diary. I don't think this is an arbitrary number that Rowling picked out of a hat. She was making a chronological connection between Snape's Mother and Tom Riddle. I suspect Eileen Prince may know something aboutTom Riddle and perhaps about Horcruxes- which would give DD another very solid reason to hide her from Voldemort as a "secret weapon."
I love this idea, and think this last part about 50 years ago is important. As we saw in HBP, DD tries to get any information he can on Riddle/LV's past. It would add and tie in a few things together if Madam Pince came to be Snape's mother.

- She could have known LV from school, giving information that is new and leads down a path towards a horecrux.
- She has extensive research and library experience for researching.
- Tom learned about Horcruxes someplace, maybe in the Hogswarts library and Pince can find the book for Harry in some hidden place within the restricted section.
- She could be a link between LV and Snape and explain his actions more clearly.
- She may know the details as to why Snape really stopped being a Death Eater.
- She could explain more about Snape/Harry/James and start Harry questioning Snape's actions and his actual culpability in DD's demise.
- Perhaps she will play a role in protecting Draco (snape brings him to his mother to hide).

I can really see her able to tie a lot of things together all over the spectrum. But mostly, we only have so many connections that might tie with the Riddle/LV past. DD has gotten the information he can, but I think Harry is missing some information to be able to retrieve them all and/or destroy them.

Madam Pince is one of the people who might have been around during Riddle's time, have connections to him, have connections and interest in the upcoming fight and be in a position and willing to contact Harry and help him to clear her sons name.


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  #168  
Old July 10th, 2007, 3:44 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
. (I have a table reserved at the A.I.C.B.W. club ya know ) I just enjoy looking at in with this idea in mind.

Or... i could just be completely wrong. ...
I'll join you at that table with my belief in the "field of chatty snakes" and we'll drain some rather large pints


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  #169  
Old July 10th, 2007, 4:51 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Out of every theory I have read since joining the forums and from discussions with family and friends, this is one that I would be shocked to find out ISN'T true. It is that good and explains so many things in a tidy manner.


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  #170  
Old July 10th, 2007, 4:34 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

I do have to say this is one theory that seems to have been kicked around in the more obscure corners of the fan sties mostly buried with the old speculation threads for a while. What I am surprised about is that to my knowledge no one has every asked Rowling anything about it.

Maybe no one cares about Madam Pince, (short of idea that she's "Difficult") but I am surprised that no one has every asked about Snape's Mother or family specifically-at all. Isn't it odd that in the past 6 books- and all the interviews and fan forums Rowling has hosted- no one has wondered what happened to Snape's family?


  #171  
Old July 10th, 2007, 5:06 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Wow !! You've put a whole lot of time in research and writting into this. I LOVE this theory. I agree that the purpose of having Madam Pince be Snapes mother would be to help explain more about Snape and answer the unanswered questions in DH. We'll find out soon if you're right...and I hope you are !! Nice job


  #172  
Old July 10th, 2007, 11:51 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Thanks, I've certainly learned a lot just through investigating this idea. Not only in some research (who knew what such a word as "quiddity" or "transubstantial" meant?) but in rereading the text and seeing things outside the context of this thread in a whole new light. It's been great fun. : )


  #173  
Old July 24th, 2007, 9:16 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
I do have to say this is one theory that seems to have been kicked around in the more obscure corners of the fan sties mostly buried with the old speculation threads for a while. What I am surprised about is that to my knowledge no one has every asked Rowling anything about it.

Maybe no one cares about Madam Pince, (short of idea that she's "Difficult") but I am surprised that no one has every asked about Snape's Mother or family specifically-at all. Isn't it odd that in the past 6 books- and all the interviews and fan forums Rowling has hosted- no one has wondered what happened to Snape's family?
I agree with you. That is indeed odd. Perhaps COS should ask the question. I for one am fascinated about Severus' family and background.


  #174  
Old August 18th, 2007, 4:11 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

I've always thought she was Snape, I don't remember ever seeing them together.


  #175  
Old August 29th, 2007, 4:22 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

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Originally Posted by Horcrux_Hater View Post
I've always thought she was Snape, I don't remember ever seeing them together.
In the movie, CoS, Madam Pince is shown sitting next to the esteemed Potions Master. I don't think they filled that role for nothing. Nor do I think it is a coincidence that the two are seated next to one another at the feast at the end.


 
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