Why did Dumbledore have James's invisibility cloak at the time of his death? v3

[PeNgUiNsRuLe]

Originally Posted by cab2311

We differ because I see no reason to tell Harry about Neville being protected as well while he is talking about why Sirius died and why Voldemort tried to kill him as a baby.

Not at that precise moment, no, but when DD goes through the story of what all he knows and why Voldy went after Harry's parents and that there was another boy that could have been the prophesied, I think it would have been a fairly good time to tell him.

Originally Posted by cab2311

We have Fudge's statement in PoA which can be written off as hind sight and we have Dumbledore's statements in OoTP that once Harry was attacked, the prophecy most certainly pretained to him and him alone. We also have Dumbledore's statements in HBP that at the time of the Prophecy, Snape had no idea the people who were going to be murdered were Harry's mom and dad and that his deepest remorse came when he realized how Voldemort interpreted the Prophecy. Does any of this really mean Snape was the spy who tipped off Dumbledore that Harry was the lone target and Neville was taken out of the picture? Am I missing something from the books or a JKR quote?

Yes, it could mean any other spy. The trouble is, we are only ever told of one good spy that is both a DE and in the Order. We are also told Snape turned spy for the good guys with great personal risk, before Voldy's downfall; I personally think it means a little before the downfall, not like two minutes. We also know that the Potters were officially in hiding under the FC for about a week before Voldy's downfall. We know both families most likely knew the full prophesy and had probably made precautions against it since it had been made, as DD was the hearer. But all the sudden one family we knows goes under hardcore protection like the FC? Anybody who was in the Order with both families knew that both were hiding and being hunted. But in PoA, Minerva doesn't say anything about the two families he was hunting both went into hiding, but the latter were fortunate because Voldy was defeated before he got to the second. At any rate, Snape would have been coming into the Order as a spy right before the Potters went under the FC, which fits with Fudge's account that says they knew Voldy was coming for them. Snape was also the only DE, I personally think, who knew about the prophesy. I don't see Voldy wanting to tell a crowd of power-hungry followers that he had just been told his defeat was coming. He's not dumb; they'd be all over him to be the first in power when he's gone. No, I think Snape would be the only one with knowledge of the prophesy. So, I think Snape would then be the only with whom he might possibly share his choice. So, when Snape came over after his distress of Voldy's choice, it would have been telling of his distress. And it would have been before the downfall of Voldy, as I said, right before the time the Potters went under extreme hiding measures with the FC and probably other things. To me, if you put it all together, it adds up that Snape was the informant that told of Voldy's choice. And as far as the choice, Voldy only ever talks of Harry. He talks about how much alike they are and he chases down Harry and, if I'm not mistaken, he calls him the chosen one at one point. I think DD is right in saying that Voldy chose Harry; I think he decided that beforehand and Neville was pretty much out of the picture.

At any rate, since it's never canonically said, you can say there was a different spy, but, to me, that math fits. Snape informed DD before the downfall that Voldy was after the Potters, and Harry became the official choice from that point forward, to be hunted by Voldy until the final showdown.

Originally Posted by cab2311

Why would Dumbledore take Harry? He apparently had something important to do without a baby tagging along. There is a time gap of 18-24 hours.

Why would he leave him? A tiny baby, who's just suffered what's supposed to be the unblockable killing curse, probably been through a lot of trauma, and is now going to be hunted by very angry DEs? I don't see him leaving a baby Harry like that.

[chemJohn]

I'm sorry, Cab....as hard as I try, I can't see Dumbledore there that night. He'd have to have found out from PETER, thereby revealing the real traitor. Also, your point about the DE's is exactly why Dumbledore would not tell ANYONE what happened. He'd grab Harry, Apparate to Hogsmede and walk to school. put Harry in Hagrid or Minevera's care, and then go take care of business, in my opinion. Why would he cover Harry with the cloak, get Hagrid, tell Hagrid where to go, get the cloak, and leave as Hagrid arrives, Hagrid not seeing him. It's just too odd.
I also don't think he'd let anyone know what happened...it just doesn't make sense, why allow rumors like that to fly around? did he think that the Death Eaters would just panic and disband? I mean, Gosh, how foolish would that sort of notion be on his part? More likely, I think he'd look to his left, look to his right, and pick up Harry, and say "I think this'll be our little secret, for the time being, little guy." Also, I think that if he were there and witnessed all of what happened, I think he'd be able to give a much more detailed account of what really happened.
Finally...are we really to believe that the most evil wizard of all time would choose to merely stun the only wizard he fears? Thats another isue i have with that theory....if I were Voldemort I'd bust in there Ak's a-flying. Also, wouldn't someone as arrogant and putrid as Voldemort brag about getting around even Albus Dumbledore to get to his prophecied nemesis??? That's more his character.
I think, more likely, Rita Skeeter was there, as a beetle. She saw Voldemort go into the house...saw the house get destroyed, Lilly and James, dead, baby Harry, alive. And we know when Harry dips into Dumbledores memories of Kakaroff's trial that Rita is already a reporter.
No doubt, even SHE could put 2 and 2 together and get it halfway right.

I agree though, that if that voice is anyone elses, other than James, it is Peter's. And I agree that whoever that voice was, was discussing Vold with at least Lilly at the time of his arrival, thus the "It's HIM, take Harry and get out of here" bit.
The one problem I have, is that if we follow that line of thinking, Then Lilly doesn't know James' whereabouts....was he on gaurd outside, and now dead, while some other voice was inside??? Was Peter inside and James checking the yard? not likely. I like the thought of Peter confessing though at the last minute, neat touch.
I still can't fathom who else it could be though...there are holes with it being Peter, but, feel free to ttry to fill those holes cus i like where the idea can go.

It also, unfortunately, has nothing to do with the cloak lol
I still like my left behind theory, either through carelessness or bravery, or the unfinished secret mission theories most.
I think though that if we're going to suppose an unfinished secret mission, we must come up with something NON Horcurx related...Dumbledore didn't know for sure at that point that Vold had horcrux(es), so I don't think the cloak is related to them. If it was, he's had 15 years to find those stupid things and take care of them, with Voldemort as vapormort....now, that he's back, He starts looking in earnest??? Blunder of the century there, if you ask me...maybe even millenium.

[cab2311]

Originally Posted by PeNgUiNsRuLe

Not at that precise moment, no, but when DD goes through the story of what all he knows and why Voldy went after Harry's parents and that there was another boy that could have been the prophesied, I think it would have been a fairly good time to tell him.

I just don't see the importance of it being told especially since Harry wasn't really interested in listening until he learned about the wording of the prophecy and what it meant to him. But by it being said, wouldn't that raise more questions that would need to be satisfied in our minds? Wouldn't it be better left to discover, if it has anything to do with the cloak and what Dumbledore was doing when James died, in Deathly Hallows.

Originally Posted by PeNgUiNsRuLe

Yes, it could mean any other spy.

Well Fudge alludes to several useful spies working for Dumbledore, but I'd have to go with Snape being the one to alert Dumbledore as well. I guess my point is that it is my opinion that "einey meany miney moe" isn't logical for Voldemort when dealing with his vanquishing. My inclination is that Voldemort may have planned to kill both and only the one to "send" Bella after the Longbottoms knew it. By choosing Harry, he may have just chose Harry first, but since he didn't get past Harry, no one may ever know until it is revealed that Dumbledore was protecting Neville with the cloak.

Originally Posted by PeNgUiNsRuLe

Why would he leave him? A tiny baby, who's just suffered what's supposed to be the unblockable killing curse, probably been through a lot of trauma, and is now going to be hunted by very angry DEs? I don't see him leaving a baby Harry like that.

In my theory, he didn't leave him. He covered him with the cloak, became invisible himself, and waited for Hagrid. Hagrid was the baby sitter to care for him for the day and bring him to Privet Drive at the scheduled time. Why keep Harry in a destroyed house? Perhaps the house wasn't as destroyed as one would think. And by the way, if we are going with Hagrid being told to go get Harry, that has Harry alone in the house when any number of things could have happened to him. If Dumbledore didn't know right away what happened and he needed to talk to any witnesses or trace what magic took place, the house in which Harry survived an unsurvivable curse might be a safe place to be.

By ChemJohn: I'm sorry, Cab....as hard as I try, I can't see Dumbledore there that night. He'd have to have found out from PETER, thereby revealing the real traitor. Also, your point about the DE's is exactly why Dumbledore would not tell ANYONE what happened. He'd grab Harry, Apparate to Hogsmede and walk to school. put Harry in Hagrid or Minevera's care, and then go take care of business, in my opinion. Why would he cover Harry with the cloak, get Hagrid, tell Hagrid where to go, get the cloak, and leave as Hagrid arrives, Hagrid not seeing him. It's just too odd.

You don't need to be sorry...I'm not sorry for not believing some of your theories. But I am a little confused as to why Dumbledore seeing Peter reveals the real traitor and why Dumbledore being there makes him the news spreader? Also...in my theory, he arrives on the scene with perhaps other order members. The other order member go off to find Sirius or other DE's because there isn't anything more they can do at Godric's Hollow. The news spreads. Dumbledore checks out the magic traces and discoveres what happened while holding Harry. Then he sends a Patronus to Hagrid with all the information. He puts Harry in his crib, charms him to be silent, covers him with the cloak, and becomes invisible because he hears DE's coming to search for Voldemort. When he sees Hagrid approaching, he takes the cloak, lifts the charm on Harry and apparates away before Hagrid see him.

Also, I think that if he were there and witnessed all of what happened, I think he'd be able to give a much more detailed account of what really happened.

Why would he need to go around telling how Harry survived? The fact of the matter is that is did and Voldemort was vanquished. Do not forget that Dumbledore tells Harry in OoTP that he knew Voldemort was't gone for good. What he tells McGonagall in SS/PS is "it certainly seems so." Did he lie? No! He let the Wizarding World celebrate because they have had very little to celebrate in the past years.

Finally...are we really to believe that the most evil wizard of all time would choose to merely stun the only wizard he fears? Thats another isue i have with that theory....if I were Voldemort I'd bust in there Ak's a-flying. Also, wouldn't someone as arrogant and putrid as Voldemort brag about getting around even Albus Dumbledore to get to his prophecied nemesis??? That's more his character.

We need to have one of those smilies that shows something flying right over it's head. You lost me! Dumbledore being at Godric's Hollow doesn't mean he was there when James died. He was off using the cloak at that time. The only theory that works for me is that he arrived at the same time as or shortly after the AK rebounded and turned Voldemort into Vapormort. Had Voldemort seen Dumbledore, I suspect he would believe it was he who caused his defeat and not Lily's sacrifice.

In the above theory and any other ones I have proposed, I have Dumbledore arriving at Godric's Hollow, with cloak in hand, too late for the Potter's. Just because I cannot see him not being there. It is not of Dumbledore's character to not arrive at the scene. I realize that my Dumbledore being there scenario is 100 % guesswork because aside from McGonagall's insistance to get the information straight from Dumbledore, and him knowing so much about what happened, there isn't any statement directly placing him there. But there also isn't any statement directly placing him not there either. Point blank...the only reason we don't know exactly where Dumbledore was that night is because we aren't suppose to know just yet. That is why I believe, to a certain extent, that what he was doing that night has something to do with the cloak.

• Was he hiding Neville on seemingly mistaken, but actually planned false information?
• Did he pick up the cloak off of the ground in the village while on his way to check on the Potter's thinking James left it and not knowing that Peter used it and dropped it when turning into a rat?
• Did James lend the cloak to Dumbledore for reasons of impersonating Snape to gain information of Voldemort's plans and the suspected spy?

[momeve]

Cab- i like your idea of the voice being Peter- hadn't thought of him perhaps being remorseful. Interesting.
OK- if DD was using the cloak to cover Neville, why on earth would that be crucial? We already know that Neville was the other boy that fit the prophecy. If the reason is that DD would have heard false info, then it makes sense, otherwise, not crucial.
The same with DD there and using the cloak to cover Harry. Unless I'm missing something, Dumbledore's presence right after the attack would not be crucial other than explaining simply how he knew what he knew when he knew it.
And i do like the idea of James giving Peter the cloak to hide, Dumbledore finding it in the street and assuming James dropped it, not knowing Peter lost it when becoming Scabrat. But again- what is crucial here? We already know that Peter betrayed the Potter's and now Harry and DD know and the world know also.
IMO, we're back to square one- so far we've guessed the cloak was used to:

hide an object (can it without object being held by live person?)
hide a person- Peter, DD as Snape, Petunia, Neville, Frank Longbottom,Dobby
get through the FC, have extra powers put on it, cover DD because he was sick or hurt and his own invisibility would not work
used for unknown order business even though they had other cloaks to borrow
Did that cover it?
How about hiding Hagrid while he went and got Harry out? He'd be hard to miss if muggles were around and DE's were in the vicinity. But still, would that be crucial?

[cab2311]

Originally Posted by momeve

Cab- i like your idea of the voice being Peter- hadn't thought of him perhaps being remorseful. Interesting.
OK- if DD was using the cloak to cover Neville, why on earth would that be crucial? We already know that Neville was the other boy that fit the prophecy. If the reason is that DD would have heard false info, then it makes sense, otherwise, not crucial.
The same with DD there and using the cloak to cover Harry. Unless I'm missing something, Dumbledore's presence right after the attack would not be crucial other than explaining simply how he knew what he knew when he knew it.
And i do like the idea of James giving Peter the cloak to hide, Dumbledore finding it in the street and assuming James dropped it, not knowing Peter lost it when becoming Scabrat. But again- what is crucial here? We already know that Peter betrayed the Potter's and now Harry and DD know and the world know also.
IMO, we're back to square one- so far we've guessed the cloak was used to:

hide an object (can it without object being held by live person?)
hide a person- Peter, DD as Snape, Petunia, Neville, Frank Longbottom,Dobby
get through the FC, have extra powers put on it, cover DD because he was sick or hurt and his own invisibility would not work
used for unknown order business even though they had other cloaks to borrow
Did that cover it?
How about hiding Hagrid while he went and got Harry out? He'd be hard to miss if muggles were around and DE's were in the vicinity. But still, would that be crucial?

So much to say and so little time....
I think Dumbledore hiding Neville would only be crucial in the realm of why he was hiding Neville. The seemingly mistaken but actually planned false information comes into play here. The crucialness is the identity of the traitor which would have to be someone we believe to be on the good side. It really works no other way in my eyes.
Dumbledore using the cloak to hide Harry is not really related to why he had it at the time of James death, it just points to him bringing it to Godric's Hollow, which I think he did and also points to him actually having it and doing something with it when James was being killed by Voldemort.
James giving it to Peter who dropped it outside while turning into a rat to run into the house to find Lily (just added that for effect) is mainly an ironic situation which I really like. I know it doesn't have a lick of crucialness other than to that night. It would, however, point to Dumbledore being in the village of Godric's Hollow that night. This apparently is something no one knows for sure about. Since it hasn't been said, I guess it could be crucial in a way but even that is a stretch in my opinion.

[chemJohn]

Ok, so I'm gonna try to respond to everything.
Cab, I think you misunderstood what I meant about Dumbledore Vs. Voldemort that night....someone else insinuated that Voldemort Stunned Dumbledore.

I can understand him showing up after the attack or right at the end of it, but he's really got some explaining to do with respect to why he didn't take Harry. I'd be kinda mad at him for that, personally.

I also don't buy the whole Dumbledore found it and assumed James left it bit either.

Also, what I meant about Peter is that Peter would have told Dumbledore where to find them....and therefore Dumbles know that Peter was SK.
if the Cloak has special powers that get it past the FC, then it's got to be (I think) because the cloak is somehow attached to James, and so, if he was in on the FC, then the wearer of the cloak is in on the FC by extension. In other words, the wearer of the cloak was able to confuse the charm as if the wearer was atually James. Certainly, becasue James, Lilly and Harry were the ones protected, they wouldnt' have to be told by Peter?

Regarding Dumbledore needing the cloak as he impersonates Snape...Can't buy that either because if he's impersonating snape, why does he even have to be invisible...that is his cover.

If they were using the cloak to hide an OBJECT, i think it can only be the stone. It can't be the sword because, although Dumbles admits he never really believed Voldemort dead, he didn't know Voldemort was after prizes to make Horcruxes yet....the only item of value can then be the stone.

As for hiding Neville...1-I agree it isn't crucial enough. 2-They KNEW it was harry who was targetted. there is ZERO cannon that says Voldemort ordered the attack on the Longbottoms, that was entirely the DE, led by Bella, looking for Voldemort. Why would James give the Longbottoms the cloak, through Dumbledore while they were under the FC...wouldn't it make orders of magnitude more sense for the Longbottoms to go under the FC too?
I realy think the reason why we can't realy figure out why dumbledore had the cloak is one of two (OK, three) reasons:
1-we don't have enough evidence to figure it out
2-he didn't need it, thus my accidental leave behind theory.
3-I'm wrong

Since 1 basically kills this discussion, let's not bother entertaining that, and instead, continue to spend valuable time at work doing this instead of work

[HerbProfNeville]

Originally Posted by chemJohn

OkAlso, what I meant about Peter is that Peter would have told Dumbledore where to find them....and therefore Dumbles know that Peter was SK.
if the Cloak has special powers that get it past the FC, then it's got to be (I think) because the cloak is somehow attached to James, and so, if he was in on the FC, then the wearer of the cloak is in on the FC by extension. In other words, the wearer of the cloak was able to confuse the charm as if the wearer was atually James. Certainly, becasue James, Lilly and Harry were the ones protected, they wouldnt' have to be told by Peter?

That's just confusing my friend. So do you think, then, that Dumbledore was told the secret by Peter? Because I don't see him letting Sirius rot in prison for 12 years if he knew who the real traitor was. And that special power possibly attributed to the cloak allowing a wearer to get around the Fidelus Charm enchantment because it is applied to the cloak's owner - that's just an incredibly contrived supposition. I think it's more likely a cloak doesn't get you past Fidelus Charms ever unless you have been told the secret by the Secret Keeper. That's why Harry can't see Grimauld despite his cloak until he reads Dumbledore's message.

Originally Posted by chemJohn

If they were using the cloak to hide an OBJECT, i think it can only be the stone. It can't be the sword because, although Dumbles admits he never really believed Voldemort dead, he didn't know Voldemort was after prizes to make Horcruxes yet....the only item of value can then be the stone.

The stone... as in the Philosopher's Stone? What does that have to do with the Potters? That was made by Dumbledore and Flamel. And when Voldemort went after it in book 1 Dumbledore and Flamel agreed to destroy it. If a Voldemort in full power had been after it a decade earlier and killed people as a result, I think that same sort of precaution would have been taken by Dumbledore and Flamel - destroy the stone.

[xyrax]

I'd like to add a few comments. My theory, albeit without a ton of thought, is that James left it with Dumbledore to use as the head of the order, if not personally, since it wouldn't be needed while he and his wife and child were under the Fidelius Charm. As such, perhaps Dumbledore needed for someone else, someone also in the order but who did not have Dumbledore's power to become invisible without the cloak. If this were the case, then whoever used it and what they were doing is probably important, since JKR drew our attention to this question. Just my two cents.

[momeve]

Originally Posted by HerbProfNeville

That's just confusing my friend. So do you think, then, that Dumbledore was told the secret by Peter? Because I don't see him letting Sirius rot in prison for 12 years if he knew who the real traitor was. And that special power possibly attributed to the cloak allowing a wearer to get around the Fidelus Charm enchantment because it is applied to the cloak's owner - that's just an incredibly contrived supposition. I think it's more likely a cloak doesn't get you past Fidelus Charms ever unless you have been told the secret by the Secret Keeper. That's why Harry can't see Grimauld despite his cloak until he reads Dumbledore's message.
The stone... as in the Philosopher's Stone? What does that have to do with the Potters? That was made by Dumbledore and Flamel. And when Voldemort went after it in book 1 Dumbledore and Flamel agreed to destroy it. If a Voldemort in full power had been after it a decade earlier and killed people as a result, I think that same sort of precaution would have been taken by Dumbledore and Flamel - destroy the stone.

not to speak for chemjohn, although I guess I am He was trying to point out exactly what the first part of your post was- those reasons don't make sense. He wasn't saying he bought those theories but that they don't hold up.
Re: the stone- this was my theory- one of many that haven't gone too far! The thought was that at some point, Dumbledore decided to put the stone into Gringotts. And since, at the time of the attack, Voldemort would have not wanted DD anywhere around to thwart his plans, he was keeping an eye on DD. Therefore, expecting someone to be tailing him, DD hid the stone on the way to Gringotts. Remember that although Dumbledore did not know about the horcruxes, he was aware that Voldemort feared death and would assume that the power of the stone would be very tempting for him, which turned out to be the case. The stone theory is easily shot down however if we assume that anything in DD's pocket would be invisible when he used his own means of invisibility. We can't know this for sure though so its still possible.

[IchLiebeGeorge]

Originally Posted by HerbProfNeville

The stone... as in the Philosopher's Stone? What does that have to do with the Potters? That was made by Dumbledore and Flamel. And when Voldemort went after it in book 1 Dumbledore and Flamel agreed to destroy it. If a Voldemort in full power had been after it a decade earlier and killed people as a result, I think that same sort of precaution would have been taken by Dumbledore and Flamel - destroy the stone.

On JKR's site, one of the hidden 'goodies' is a page of conversation where Harry is telling Ron and Hermione that his parents had the Philosopher's Stone... So what ChemJohn is saying is not totally off base. But it was an early version, and I don't think she'd release that if it still made the cut.

[PeNgUiNsRuLe]

Originally Posted by xyrax

I'd like to add a few comments. My theory, albeit without a ton of thought, is that James left it with Dumbledore to use as the head of the order, if not personally, since it wouldn't be needed while he and his wife and child were under the Fidelius Charm. As such, perhaps Dumbledore needed for someone else, someone also in the order but who did not have Dumbledore's power to become invisible without the cloak. If this were the case, then whoever used it and what they were doing is probably important, since JKR drew our attention to this question. Just my two cents.

How is that crucial? Jo said this was a crucial point; I fail to see what this would matter and why it wouldn't be just told us, were it the answer.

IchLiebeGeorge -- Interesting bit of info there. I agree though; I've seen some other crazy stuff on her site as goodies and extras that are like first drafts of things and drawings, and, while they're fun, I have to agree that I seriously doubt any of that will be in DH, for that reason. She's not gonna let out the plotline, and if it didn't make the cut, it didn't make it for a reason.

[chemJohn]

herbprof...momeve hit the nail RIGHT on the head.
That's exactly what I was trying to point out...we have to make all those rediculous assumptions to put Dumbledore there...Unless Lilly took down the charm, which if she did, I'll be flat out mistified.
Again, HPN (yes, that's you, herbprof ), regarding the cloak being used to hide the stone, and your saying they'd likely just agree to destroy it THEN instead of waiting till book 1, I totally agree....I was just reaching for OBJECTS the cloak could have been used to protect...of the objects we know of, only the stone is important enough, I think.
So, if anything, your point proves that the cloak could not have been used to protect the stone....so if not that, what object if any???? That's the point I was going for, I guess.
Please, if anyone can think of any object that would be worthy of being hidden by the cloak, say so .

I hope the confusion is fixed, HPN. Momeve is exactly right with what I was doing...pointing out the things we have to assume to make that the case.
And the stone is again just the most important object i could think of...but Momeve is right in pointing out (so generously, I may add) the hole in her own theory that Dumbles could just tuck it away in his pocket. Also, Let's remember who GOT the stone out of Gringotts. That was not just out of convenience that Hagrid was already in the area...I'd argue it's why Dumbledore sent Hagrid when he did. Dumbledore (for reasons I'd say we understand even less than with Snape) would "trust Hagrid with his life."

Maybe we should be thinking of Hagrid doing this putative secret mission for Dumbledore that required the cloak.
I'm sure Harry could get it out of him if he's in book 7 much. Though....I imagine Hagrid would need more of a BEDSHEET to cover his whole body than a measley cloak .

[SeverusLovesUs]

Originally Posted by PeNgUiNsRuLe

Why would he leave him? A tiny baby, who's just suffered what's supposed to be the unblockable killing curse, probably been through a lot of trauma, and is now going to be hunted by very angry DEs? I don't see him leaving a baby Harry like that.

Oh, we're back to this again already? The idea is that Dumbledore was there watching over Harry right after everything happened. Regardless of what the cloak had been being used for before, he still had it with him and covered Harry with it in case any DE's came in (PETER who we know got Voldy's wand). He had alerted Hagrid to come and stayed there, invisibly, with Harry, until Hagrid arrived and then he left (still invisible).

[PeNgUiNsRuLe]

Originally Posted by SeverusLovesUs

Oh, we're back to this again already? The idea is that Dumbledore was there watching over Harry right after everything happened. Regardless of what the cloak had been being used for before, he still had it with him and covered Harry with it in case any DE's came in (PETER who we know got Voldy's wand). He had alerted Hagrid to come and stayed there, invisibly, with Harry, until Hagrid arrived and then he left (still invisible).

I still say it would be much easier and safer to grab Harry, get out of there fast, and take him to Hagrid to stall for a day while he handles some things. Sorry, can't get this to work logically in my head.

[xyrax]

Originally Posted by PeNgUiNsRuLe

How is that crucial? Jo said this was a crucial point; I fail to see what this would matter and why it wouldn't be just told us, were it the answer.

Well, my thinking was that maybe what it was used for was crucial. Could be completely wrong, but I don't think it's particularly less likely than some of the theories I've seen.

[SeverusLovesUs]

Originally Posted by momeve

IMO, we're back to square one- so far we've guessed the cloak was used to:

hide an object (can it without object being held by live person?)

The strongest example we have that it may be able to do so is when fake Moody transfigured his father, Crouch Sr.'s dead body into a bone and covered it with the cloak. The cloak hid a bone that was the transfigured body of a dead wizard.

hide a person- Peter, DD as Snape, Petunia, Neville, Frank Longbottom,Dobby

And Snape's mom is another probably person.

get through the FC, have extra powers put on it, cover DD because he was sick or hurt and his own invisibility would not work
used for unknown order business even though they had other cloaks to borrow
Did that cover it?

This part seems to include all the other suggestions.

How about hiding Hagrid while he went and got Harry out? He'd be hard to miss if muggles were around and DE's were in the vicinity. But still, would that be crucial?

I don't think so. After he had already gotten Harry out he met with Sirius who could see him just fine.

None of the theories can be debunked, simply because we can't see how it's crucial. That is the missing element. We could never have guessed exactly how Voldemort survived the rebounded AK curse until we were told about horcruxes. Information is missing. Therefore any one of the situations could have something crucial about it if we knew the whole story.

Originally Posted by chemJohn

I can understand him showing up after the attack or right at the end of it, but he's really got some explaining to do with respect to why he didn't take Harry. I'd be kinda mad at him for that, personally.

Entrusting Harry to Hagrid is just fine with me. Afterall, Dumbledore had to check on the Longbottoms to make sure they were safe too, had to try to find the DE's who hurt the Longbottoms, had to tell the Ministry what happened (the basic details which is what got spread around), had to look for Order members, and had to make decisions about Harry's future, had to perform some protective magic gor him. He had a lot to do and so he made sure Harry was taken care of.

Originally Posted by chemJohn

Also, what I meant about Peter is that Peter would have told Dumbledore where to find them....and therefore Dumbles know that Peter was SK.
if the Cloak has special powers that get it past the FC, then it's got to be (I think) because the cloak is somehow attached to James, and so, if he was in on the FC, then the wearer of the cloak is in on the FC by extension. In other words, the wearer of the cloak was able to confuse the charm as if the wearer was atually James. Certainly, becasue James, Lilly and Harry were the ones protected, they wouldnt' have to be told by Peter?

I totally agree this is possible.

Originally Posted by chemJohn

If they were using the cloak to hide an OBJECT, i think it can only be the stone. It can't be the sword because, although Dumbles admits he never really believed Voldemort dead, he didn't know Voldemort was after prizes to make Horcruxes yet....the only item of value can then be the stone.

Actually, the sword is more likely IMO. Voldemort only ever wanted the stone once he needed it to have his body back. I don't know why we would suspect he'd go after it back then. The sword has clear connections to Godric's Hollow and to Arthurian legened. We don't know where the sword was before Harry pulled it from the hat-and it is very likely that it had been charmed so it couldn't be removed from Godric's Hollow (except for by Gryffindor's true heir? or by one worthy enough?) Dumbledore is confident the sword is safe-but it hasn't been in his office all these years....so how does he know? Because they protected it while it could not be removed. It's not odd that Dumbledore knew Voldemort was after it. He doesn't have to know about horcruxers to know that Voldemort likes to collect trophies and he may have wanted to keep such a powerful object away from Voldemort who was power hungry. Also, by this tume, Dumbledore knew Voldemort had wanted to come back to Hogwarts, and knew that there were more reasons than for simply teaching. He may have well suspected back then that Voldemort may have wanted to find such powerful magical objects. Also, the spy (Snape) could have known Voldemort was planning on trying to get the sword and told Dumbledore. And since the sword could not be removed or altered by magical means, they had to cover it with the cloak. The sword seems highly probable and fitting to me.

[cab2311]

Originally Posted by chemJohn

Also, what I meant about Peter is that Peter would have told Dumbledore where to find them....and therefore Dumbles know that Peter was SK.
Certainly, becasue James, Lilly and Harry were the ones protected, they wouldnt' have to be told by Peter?

As far as Dumbledore, the charm could have been lifted allowing Dumbledore to arrive or Dumbledore just knew where the Potters were, along with the Potters, because the charm doesn't keep you from knowing something you already knew to begin with.

Originally Posted by chemJohn

Regarding Dumbledore needing the cloak as he impersonates Snape...Can't buy that either because if he's impersonating snape, why does he even have to be invisible...that is his cover.

I don't know...but perhaps he would need it as a precautionary measure when he switched back. The thing this has going for it is the crucialness and revelation that it happened in Spinner's End as well.

Originally Posted by chemJohn

there is ZERO cannon that says Voldemort ordered the attack on the Longbottoms, that was entirely the DE, led by Bella, looking for Voldemort.

Well you are right about one thing...Voldemort didn't order the attack on the Longbottoms. That's not what I said. However, JKR did say that Bella was "sent" after the Longbottoms to gain information about Voldemort's whereabouts. Therefore it couldn't have been Voldemort. But if she was sent then someone sent her. But, of course, JKR didn't say who sent her.

Originally Posted by chemJohn

Why would James give the Longbottoms the cloak, through Dumbledore while they were under the FC...wouldn't it make orders of magnitude more sense for the Longbottoms to go under the FC too?

That's not what I meant. In the theory, Dumbledore uses the cloak already in his possession and on his own suspicions that since there is a traitor somewhere close, he would be ready to help even if they didn't want his help. We don't really know for sure if the Longbottoms were protected with a FC or not. All we know is that they were attacked by Bella and company after their guard was let down.

Originally Posted by chemJohn

I realy think the reason why we can't realy figure out why dumbledore had the cloak is one of two (OK, three) reasons:
1-we don't have enough evidence to figure it out
2-he didn't need it, thus my accidental leave behind theory.
3-I'm wrong

I like number three. I think that is why we all cannot figure it out...ChemJohn is wrong. Darn, why'd ya have to go and be wrong? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Chrido]

So do you think, then, that Dumbledore was told the secret by Peter? Because I don't see him letting Sirius rot in prison for 12 years if he knew who the real traitor was.

I´d like to ask a question that just came into my mind. If Dumbledore was still thinking Sirius to be the secret-keeper why did he let Hagrid go back to meet him? Shouldn´t he have warned him? Sorry if that´s a bit of off-topic, but it seemed to fit in the discussion.

[chemJohn]

Originally Posted by SeverusLovesUs

Oh, we're back to this again already? The idea is that Dumbledore was there watching over Harry right after everything happened. Regardless of what the cloak had been being used for before, he still had it with him and covered Harry with it in case any DE's came in (PETER who we know got Voldy's wand). He had alerted Hagrid to come and stayed there, invisibly, with Harry, until Hagrid arrived and then he left (still invisible).

Ok...still trying out this multiple quoting bit, so bear with me if I'm terrible at it please...


I'm not trying to be a pain in the neck, Severus, but please explain why Dumbles would have to be invisible all that time...espescialy when Hagrid shows up. And he also would see/hear Sirius comming, and Dumbles just sneaks away....not likely.
He'd ESPESCIALLY want to talk to Sirius.

Originally Posted by PeNgUiNsRuLe

I still say it would be much easier and safer to grab Harry, get out of there fast, and take him to Hagrid to stall for a day while he handles some things. Sorry, can't get this to work logically in my head.

OH NO
OH NO!!!!
Everyone, go to the grocery store, buy all the toilet paper, water and non-perishables you can....Apocalypse is coming!!!!!! Penguins and I agree on something!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, see below penguins cus, now I think we may be wrong...Harry may have been safest in that destroyed house.

Originally Posted by xyrax

Well, my thinking was that maybe what it was used for was crucial. Could be completely wrong, but I don't think it's particularly less likely than some of the theories I've seen.

Xyrax---The distinction you speak of is why we're on Thread 3!!!!!
It's been argued over for a while, and it's oh so fun, welcome!
As I'm sure you've picked up on if you've read most of my posts, my favorite theory is that Dumbles never used, nor did he intend to use the cloak, and James simply left it behind either truly on accident, or through carelesness.
But, being a man of Science, I like to think of other ideas as well...even if at the end of the day, I latch on to mine like a baby latches on to its mom.

Originally Posted by SeverusLovesUs

The strongest example we have that it may be able to do so is when fake Moody transfigured his father, Crouch Sr.'s dead body into a bone and covered it with the cloak. The cloak hid a bone that was the transfigured body of a dead wizard.


And Snape's mom is another probably person.


This part seems to include all the other suggestions.



I don't think so. After he had already gotten Harry out he met with Sirius who could see him just fine.

None of the theories can be debunked, simply because we can't see how it's crucial. That is the missing element. We could never have guessed exactly how Voldemort survived the rebounded AK curse until we were told about horcruxes. Information is missing. Therefore any one of the situations could have something crucial about it if we knew the whole story.

Entrusting Harry to Hagrid is just fine with me. Afterall, Dumbledore had to check on the Longbottoms to make sure they were safe too, had to try to find the DE's who hurt the Longbottoms, had to tell the Ministry what happened (the basic details which is what got spread around), had to look for Order members, and had to make decisions about Harry's future, had to perform some protective magic gor him. He had a lot to do and so he made sure Harry was taken care of.


I totally agree this is possible.



Actually, the sword is more likely IMO. Voldemort only ever wanted the stone once he needed it to have his body back. I don't know why we would suspect he'd go after it back then. The sword has clear connections to Godric's Hollow and to Arthurian legened. We don't know where the sword was before Harry pulled it from the hat-and it is very likely that it had been charmed so it couldn't be removed from Godric's Hollow (except for by Gryffindor's true heir? or by one worthy enough?) Dumbledore is confident the sword is safe-but it hasn't been in his office all these years....so how does he know? Because they protected it while it could not be removed. It's not odd that Dumbledore knew Voldemort was after it. He doesn't have to know about horcruxers to know that Voldemort likes to collect trophies and he may have wanted to keep such a powerful object away from Voldemort who was power hungry. Also, by this tume, Dumbledore knew Voldemort had wanted to come back to Hogwarts, and knew that there were more reasons than for simply teaching. He may have well suspected back then that Voldemort may have wanted to find such powerful magical objects. Also, the spy (Snape) could have known Voldemort was planning on trying to get the sword and told Dumbledore. And since the sword could not be removed or altered by magical means, they had to cover it with the cloak. The sword seems highly probable and fitting to me.

Ok, SEverus, I can concede that the sword can be thrown in there too as a potential object being protected. Hadn't really considered his thirst for trophies for NON horcrux purposes, thanks for brining that up.

I agree that it may have been to hide Snape's mom, but again, the logistics of it are too complicated for me to get on board. Espescially if she's already transfigured.

I totally agree with Dumbledore's decision to entrust Harry to Hagrid...what I don't get though is why he didn't bring him to Hagrid, or wait there, visibly for Hagrid...so what if Hagrid sees him???
Perhaps, and just perhaps, the reason why he didn't bring him anywhere, but Privet Drive (through Hagrid) is because of the blood protection!!!! His mother's blood, his mother's house...he was invincible there....
Darn it, I hate when i come so close to proving myself wrong.

Originally Posted by cab2311

As far as Dumbledore, the charm could have been lifted allowing Dumbledore to arrive or Dumbledore just knew where the Potters were, along with the Potters, because the charm doesn't keep you from knowing something you already knew to begin with.
I don't know...but perhaps he would need it as a precautionary measure when he switched back. The thing this has going for it is the crucialness and revelation that it happened in Spinner's End as well.


Well you are right about one thing...Voldemort didn't order the attack on the Longbottoms. That's not what I said. However, JKR did say that Bella was "sent" after the Longbottoms to gain information about Voldemort's whereabouts. Therefore it couldn't have been Voldemort. But if she was sent then someone sent her. But, of course, JKR didn't say who sent her. That's not what I meant. In the theory, Dumbledore uses the cloak already in his possession and on his own suspicions that since there is a traitor somewhere close, he would be ready to help even if they didn't want his help. We don't really know for sure if the Longbottoms were protected with a FC or not. All we know is that they were attacked by Bella and company after their guard was let down.

I like number three. I think that is why we all cannot figure it out...ChemJohn is wrong. Darn, why'd ya have to go and be wrong? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I'm eteranlly glad I was able to amuse you, penguins . I think adding little light moments like that into the posts makes this a lot more fun...after all, that's why we're doing this, fun, right? Sure, maybe too much jokes distracts from the topic, but, I imagine almost everyone smiled when they read that...which is why I wrote it . Let's keep having fun, and find the stupid key to Jo's mind already so we can just know!!!

Now, Re the Longbottoms (AND the cloak!!!)-I'm glad I was remembering correctly that Bella was NOT sent by Voldemort. There seems to be lots of confusion as to when the Longbottoms were attacked. It was not immediately after the potters, that much is for sure. It was long enough after, that the Death Eaters grew fidgety, not knowing where he was, and EVERYONE let the gaurd down. So, what about the cloak John? We know that for whatever reason, Bella, Crouch Jr. (and who was the third? Rockwood???) only tortured Neville's parents. They weren't caught that night. We know that because Crouch Jr. wasn't caught that night. Where the heck was Neville all that time? Perhaps under the cloak? (told you it was about the cloak) I think he definitley witnessed the attack on his parents. He was far too uncomfortable when MoodyCrouch was torturing the spider. It can not just be because he knows his parents felt that....he had to have watched them. And the ONLY way I can see him not getting dead, or tortured too, is if they didn't know he was there....perhaps the cloak really was used on him, after all. Though....I still toss that idea aside because I think that 2 popular and powerful aurors in the Order would have a cloak of their own, however rare they are.

Originally Posted by Chrido

I´d like to ask a question that just came into my mind. If Dumbledore was still thinking Sirius to be the secret-keeper why did he let Hagrid go back to meet him? Shouldn´t he have warned him? Sorry if that´s a bit of off-topic, but it seemed to fit in the discussion.

HOLY COW...
excellent point....he would have had to know that Sirius was SK....
Maybe he knew it was Peter. Remember, Sirius wasn't in Askaban for betraying Lily and James, he was there for killing Peter. That's a punishment, wether he was right or wrong for doing so, Dumbledore would have supported. Is there ANY cannon that Dumbledore KNEW who SK was??? or just that he wanted it to be him.
Wow, excelent point Chrido, never noticed that.

[Weazleby]

(Sorry, I'm a bit late in returning).

But that is part of the question...Why would Dumbledore need the cloak when he didn't need it to become invisible.

Dumbledore could become invisible without a cloak in SS. But who says he had the same powers a decade ago? Even an older wizard such as himself could learn a few tricks over the years.

Why would Dumbledore take Harry? He apparently had something important to do without a baby tagging along. There is a time gap of 18-24 hours.

Maybe I'm a dunce to think of such mundane matters, but if there was a time gap of 18 to 24 hours, where was Harry during this time period? Hopefully he wasn't hanging out in the wreckage of the Potter home with his parents' dead bodies. As I understand it, his parents were murdered, Dumbledore apparently caught wind several hours later and sent Hagrid to fetch Harry (who, while there, met Sirius Black), then the three (Dumbledore, McGonagall and Hagrid) met at Privet Drive that morning. Obviously I've skipped the "lost day" theories. But it seems to me that Dumbledore must have been there to at least survey the damage. There are just a lack of clues or hints that are directed toward what happened at Godric's Hollow on that fateful night.