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The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation



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  #1  
Old June 28th, 2007, 7:46 pm
blaqlives  Female.gif blaqlives is offline
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The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

Discussion of the editorial The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation by Jay Ortiz.

(This thread is for the entire 8-part editorial. Please be sure to specify which part you are talking about if necessary.)


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  #2  
Old June 28th, 2007, 11:20 pm
Strider62442  Undisclosed.gif Strider62442 is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

Voldemort did have enough form and power to use a wand in killing Frank Bryce. If he had enough in him in that childlike form to do an AK it isnt unreasonable to think he could have made a Horcrux at the time.

What annoyed me about Dumbledore's description of the Frank Bryce thing is that he never mentions him by name. He also claims that Voldemort used Nagani to kill the man in question. First off, just because Nagani informed Voldemort that Bryce was listening at the door doesnt qualify as "using" the snake to kill the man. Secondly, how on earth would Dumbledore know that Voldemort killed an insignificant muggle "using" the snake in such an indirect way as talking to it? It seems pretty sloppy. There is only one way that I see that could justify Dumbledore's statements, and thats Wormtail being a spy for the Order, which seems very unlikely.


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  #3  
Old June 28th, 2007, 11:58 pm
pottersleuth200  Undisclosed.gif pottersleuth200 is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

Very very interesting. Thanks for the editorial. One comment, however on your projected reason why Voldemort would have preferred not to kill Lily--ie, that he had no need for another killing because he didnt want to create another horcrux at that particular time.
Voldemort has not shown such a "waste not, want not" attitude before. Many people were killed during hiis reign of terror. You only have to remember his words regarding Cedric, "Kill the spare," to realize that Voldemort would kill anyone who stood in his way without batting an eyelash.
Several people have speculated that Voldemort may have wanted Lily to work for him doing something that only she could do. Remember, we have not found out what her profession was, and that is promised to us. So maybe he wanted her to live in hopes that he might persuade her to join him. That would also explain her words, "I'll do anything." Perhaps he had approached her before with some sort of proposal.
I appreciate the thought that went behind the "deflected" curse theory, but remember how much it is emphasized throughout the series that Harry Potter is the SOLE suvivor of the AK curse. Remember The Boy Who Lived? There are just too many times that this factor was emphasized for it to turn out at the last minute to be inaccurate. For that reason alone I cant buy your theory. But having a minor curse bounce all around the house, killing Lily, carving a lightning bolt on Harry's head, vaporizing Voldemort,and destroying the house is just too much. And I say minor because the horcrux curses are apparently not in the "unforgiveable" class, which seems to be the highest class of curse.



Last edited by pottersleuth200; June 29th, 2007 at 2:39 am. Reason: to add some points
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  #4  
Old June 29th, 2007, 12:13 am
Alliria  Undisclosed.gif Alliria is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

Some good ideas throughout the editorial, but comes across as a bit pompous and condescending to other editorials based on speculation, when this one has a good deal of speculation as well. There's certainly nothing in the books to suggest or not suggest that anyone else was at Godric's Hollow, or that Frank Longbottom was that person if there was.

I'm certainly not knocking speculation - your ideas are very good, AND they seem pretty original, and you back them up. I personally just get a bit annoyed with the tone of a number of editorials on here (this isn't the only one and far from the worst, so sorry to take it all out on you)... seems like a good number of the people who write them believe they have a much better understanding of the series than everyone else, sometimes to the point of writing the editorial more to try to impress than inform.

OK, off the soapbox. As I said, you do make some excellent points, and you've done a good job supporting them.


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  #5  
Old June 29th, 2007, 12:23 am
Strider62442  Undisclosed.gif Strider62442 is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

I've heard the Frank Longbottom thing before, but I dont think its plausable. If Longbottom was there Voldemort wouldnt Stun him. He'd just kill him. Besides, when a person is Stupefied, they lose conciousness and cant act as a witness to anything. I doubt Voldemort would use the full body bind as Dumbledore did on Harry on top of the tower. What reason would Voldemort have to keeping Longbottom alive? Also, just because Voldemort's body was destroyed by the rebounding curse doesnt mean that his magic suddenly died and that Frank would be released. The point of the Horcruxes is that they keep Voldemort and all his powers intact.

As I understand it the piece of soul that resides with Voldemort's body cannot be destroyed as long as a Horcrux remains. Without that fragment there would be no sense of self in Voldemort at all. Hed be just like a victim of the Dementor's kiss, an empty shell that could no longer think. This is backed up by dumbledore's claim that those who wish to kill voldemort must seek to destroy the body last. The main piece of soul remains earth bound and attached to Voldemort's conciousness as long as the Horcruxes remain. The feeling Voldemort deescribes in GoF as being less than the meanest ghost is simply a description of being without a body and only a shattered and diminished soul, but as close to being imortal as possible.

I feel like replacing AK with a Horcrux spell just needlessly complicates things. It always seemed like a good enough story that the AK meant for Harry hit both and killed no one. I always thought the connection between the two was that the "curse that failed" as Dumbledore called it, is still alive in the form of the connection between them. Harry is being shielded by his mother's love, Voldemort is being shielded by evil in his Horcruxes. It fits with the prophecy deliciously. The curse that failed is hanging on both their heads and will dominate their lives until one croaks. It is also perfect for Dumbledore's insistance in the power of the soul that is whole and unbroken. The difference between Harry and Voldemort is that Harry's mother provided him with some protection forever while Voldemort's Horcruxes can be destroyed. The symbolism seems good enough without the Horcrux spell replacing AK.


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  #6  
Old June 29th, 2007, 1:13 am
SPSipal  Undisclosed.gif SPSipal is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strider62442 View Post
I've heard the Frank Longbottom thing before, but I dont think its plausable. If Longbottom was there Voldemort wouldnt Stun him. He'd just kill him. Besides, when a person is Stupefied, they lose conciousness and cant act as a witness to anything. I doubt Voldemort would use the full body bind as Dumbledore did on Harry on top of the tower. What reason would Voldemort have to keeping Longbottom alive? Also, just because Voldemort's body was destroyed by the rebounding curse doesnt mean that his magic suddenly died and that Frank would be released. The point of the Horcruxes is that they keep Voldemort and all his powers intact.
I totally agree with you. Voldemort would not have stunned Frank, he would have killed him. I have my own Frank Longbottom at Godric's Hollow theory, which was posted as an editorial here on Mugglenet back in February. It's called One Last Memory and it's still in the featured editorial archive.

When I was working up that theory, I considered the very same scenario that this author presents -- that Frank Longbottom was posted as guard at Godric's Hollow, is stunned by Voldy, and serves as a witness much in the same way as Harry on top of the tower. However, I quickly rejected that theory because I just felt for sure Voldy would shoot to kill, not stun.

However, it just makes too much sense that the reason Belletrix et al were looking for Frank to point the way to their master is because they had evidence that Frank was at the scene of the crime, so to speak. The only way, I felt, that Frank could have been there was if someone else in addition to the Potters and Voldy was there as well, to keep Frank occupied and not killed.

Thus Snape came into my theory. I believe Snape showed up on the tail of Frank, apparently following the Auror, and Voldemort let Frank be because Snape (who Voldy looked upon as a loyal DE) was apparently in battle with Frank. Thus they both served as witnesses, and Frank battled Snape because he didn't know he could trust him. Unfortunately, their battle also kept Snape from stopping Voldy.

It's a long theory, and I think it's stated better in the original editorial. However, I did want to point out here that Frank can be there as an eyewitness, just (in my opinion) not alone and not stunned.


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  #7  
Old June 29th, 2007, 1:17 am
Widdi  Undisclosed.gif Widdi is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

You had me thinking your theory was very plausible until you said only two spells were used at Godric's Hollow, which we know, not through the books, but through the movies, to be untrue.

I know the movies take liberties and change things, but if what you claim is true, than they changed a MAJOR plot point that would effect the entire story. JKR reads over the scripts to make sure these things don't happen. I'm sure she would have intervened if the events the movies show took place at Godric's Hollow were depicted incorrectly.

I know we were shown what Hagrid said, and not exactly what may have taken place. But they revisited the scenes again when showing Harry's memories. To me that means that what we were shown is canon.


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  #8  
Old June 29th, 2007, 2:00 am
genericname22  Undisclosed.gif genericname22 is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

The thing that bugged me about this is how you said that you would base your editorial on concrete info from the text... And then you went on to make rather elaborate claims that really arent backed up by the book. As far as originality goes, this editorial was pretty good. However, it seems like you would take an obscure idea (for example when you said that voldemort only cast two spells at godrics hollow) and run with it. You took the relatively simple idea of the seven pieces of voldemorts soul, and created a ridiculously complex editorial that felt more like fan fiction then actual speculation. It would be virtually impossible for JKR to explain something that complex in the context of a novel. Also, how would Harry find out about all this? He obviously needs to know where each piece of Voldemorts soul is if he wants to kill him. If your theory is true, then Voldemort is the only one who knows exactly what happened to his soul, and where all the pieces are. Are you expecting Voldemort to give a seventeen page monologue telling Harry where each piece of his soul is, how it got there, how many spells he used, etc... I think there will be much simpler explanations. I also dont think that Harry is a horcrux.It would be way to predictable.


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  #9  
Old June 29th, 2007, 2:56 am
daniel2099  Male.gif daniel2099 is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

part 1
sword
dd also says only a real gryendor could pull that sword out of a hat

part2

snake
at the time frank was killed he did have a body we are told that lv did
this kill (the boady petagew put in the coulden in the graveyeard he was in a chair when frak was spoted

but you have a point LV doesnt like to relie on anyone else

dont forget DD is making a gess here he atmits he might berong

back after I read more


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  #10  
Old June 29th, 2007, 3:07 am
le_professeur  Undisclosed.gif le_professeur is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

Thank you for an outstanding editorial that does not rely on speculation but on the text. Much like a teacher, you have been meticulous in your text analysis and theorizing based on the written word and as a result have led your readers into great depth. I've personally enjoyed reading your ideas and found that they tie together the many, many interrelated ideas that JKR has woven throughout this series.
I do wonder, however, about your explanation of the rebounded curse thrown at Harry that stripped Voldemort of his body. I agree that Harry inadvertantly holds (or did-until the graveyard in GoF) a part of Voldemorts soul. You also state that he did not have two souls but only one. I agree that Lily got in the way of the spell meant to kill Harry but, I think there was some fancy rearranging in those few moments of the souls in question: Voldemort's, Harry's AND Lily's. The only text that has been repeated in every book that you did not address is the statement made to Harry by everyone from Hagrid to Lupin: "You have your mother's eyes". No one ever says "your eyes look like your mother's". We know repetition is JKR's way of saying something is crucial to the plot. I also believe the statement is meant to be literal. If Harry has his mother's eyes (and they are the windows to the SOUL), does Harry's body contain the soul of his mother as the means to protect his soul from the evil stain of Voldemort's? I believe it is quite possible.
The only other question I have is how does the ephemeral, spiritual soul flow through Harry's veins (as in his blood)? That seems an unresolved and weak point in your magnificent theorizing.
Otherwise, it was great writing and very interesting reading.


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  #11  
Old June 29th, 2007, 3:12 am
astarstill  Undisclosed.gif astarstill is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

Whew! Long editorial. I thought your ideas were original, and that's hard to find at this juncture. However, your theories didn't explain the fact that during Harry's fifth year, when, in your opinion, he was no longer a horcrux, he was tuned into Voldemort so much. My theory is that at the end of OOP, Voldemort, when he was posessing Harry, (or whatever happened here,) realized that Harry had a peice of his soul, so he took it with him when he left Harry and disapparated. Harry didn't have trouble with Voldemort in HBP. Kind of suspicious.


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  #12  
Old June 29th, 2007, 3:36 am
DarkFire17  Undisclosed.gif DarkFire17 is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

This article is very well presented, but I don't think that Harry ever was or is a Horcrux.. Sorry. 'Neither can live while the other survives'- If Harry is indeed a Horcrux, Voldemort could surely live while Harry does. And wouldn't the part of Voldy's soul try to control or manipulate Harry's thoughts at some point?


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  #13  
Old June 29th, 2007, 5:03 am
zveron  Undisclosed.gif zveron is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

A very long editorial indeed. I admire you effort in putting up a complex theory that is based on very little fact and lots of improbable (lily deflected the spell and it glance off harry, leave the soul bit in the forehead then rebounded back to voldemort to displace his then soul bit). A good theory should be simple yet able to explain complex things, and JKR has proven time and again that there is alway a simple explaination in all her plots (PoA and GOF are good examples).

To perform an AK would somehow taint the soul, I am sure lot of the auror would have use AK in their fight with the Dark. It required a murdering intent to power the spell. Bellatrix kill the fox with AK without a blink. Voldemort have use AK quite extensively, and to use one on lily is of no issue. Futhermore, creating a Horcrux beyond the first is uncharted territory, even to voldemort it would be more an experiment. An experience duelist like him would not, however arrogant, perform an experiment in the present of an accomplish witch which is definitely not his friend. He may not realize the power of love but he is not that stupid. Killing lily in the quickest way is the simplest way to get to harry at that time and would be the dark lord best option.


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Old June 29th, 2007, 6:46 am
aggiefan1206  Female.gif aggiefan1206 is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

I think this theory is the most interesting with the most detail that i have read. I would have to say that i agree with some of your theory but other parts i dont seem to agree with quite as much. Great editorial though. Think this is the best i have read well thought out good use of quotes and information from the books. I like the idea of the dementors performing the kiss on Voldemort. Although to Voldemort death is what he fears the most so do we give him what he fears the most. Even if the dementors sucks out his soul and is pretty much not not exsisting he is still alive eventhough he is soulless. anyways good theory enjoyed it very much bring on book 7!


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  #15  
Old June 29th, 2007, 7:28 am
hpboy13  Male.gif hpboy13 is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

Wow, that editorial is amazing just for its length, if nothing else! I commend you for writing it, it was a truly interestign read. However, I'm afraid I'm in agreement with Alliria in that you use assumptions just as much as the next author, but are extremely well-convinced of the correctness fo your assumptions (aren't we all?).

By biggest disagreement with the editorial is your description of Harry "carrying" the soul, yet not being a Horcrux - isn't a Horcrux by definition something in which a soul piece is stored? It seemed like you were desperately trying to manipulate the wording, but I don't buy it, sorry. Whether or not he is a Horcrux I'll leave to the 100-page threads on the subject.

Another is your description of Voldemort's behaviour towards Lily and Frank. Frank beign there is a good idea. Howveer, Voldy isn't the type to "Stun" someone and move on with life. Especially a highly skilled Auror who has thrice defied him. Same goes for Lily. Whether he offered to spare her because of a juicy love affair between them, at Snape's request, or a million other reasons, he isn't the type to not waste his soul. It doesn't matter whether you think math applies to souls. (In other words, whether splitting a soul takes away half each time. If it does, then Voldemort's soul was so tiny by that point it wouldn't have made a difference. If math doesn't apply, he can kill as muich as he wants and still have enough soul to work with). He can kill Frank and Lily, and use those murders for a Horcrux - besides, wans't the idea to murder Harry and use that for a Horcrux? Though your insurance thing does make sense. Voldemort fires AKs with wild abandon, it's the DEs who run around like chickens firing Stunners (did they fire a single AK during the Ministry battle?)

As for Gryffindor's sword, I have my own very complex theory on what happened with that. After DD checked it over and whatever, it became a Horcrux during HBP. I think the Room of Requirement pulls stuff from Hogwarts (think the foe-glass). So what's to stop it from pulling Gryffindor's sword? After Voldy murders Amelia Bones (or someone else), he can send either Snape (if you believe he's bad) or Draco (the far more likely candidate) to get the sword for him. Voldemort Horcruxifies it and puts it right back, and no one suspects a thing. I think Draco telling Harry about this sword-snatchign may be Draco's redemption.

And while your theory of an AK and then a Horcrux-spell being fired at Godric's Hollow is nice, there is just about no way to work it into the books. Unless in the middle of the battle Harry invited Voldemort for a cup of tea and they'll spend 100 pages discussing the minute details of the night at Godric's Hollow, I don't see how Jo will work it into a book with merely 784 pages.

I'm sorry if I seemed really critical, because it really was a good editorial.


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Old June 29th, 2007, 8:44 am
sfgilgalad  Undisclosed.gif sfgilgalad is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

I didn't like this editorial at all.
1st : "the author" is very pompous, that's absolutly true. He's very disrespectful of the other readers, and litteraly say that if some people might have had something which could be close to a fine guess, it was pure luck.
2nd : He makes a lot of bizarre asumptions, while saying he only bases his work on the text.
3rd : He finally only repeatd what have already been said, discussed, and doesn't bring anything new that would justify his pompous style : he seemd to enjoy writing a lot and read his wonderful work. Sorry, but I really felt insulted by his tone, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one.
5th : your conclusion, more or less, is canon. I mean, it's nice to write editorials, and contribute, but what's new in there that makes him so proud?! I felt like reading Percy's report on cauldrons.
6th : Who knows how many curses were sent this night? Maybe Harry wasn't in the same room, or had the eyes closed, in his cuffin.


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Old June 29th, 2007, 8:56 am
Vampirjaeger  Undisclosed.gif Vampirjaeger is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

B. Leading Theories: Textually Deficient?

"...it was the murder of Frank Bryce that Voldemort used to create the soul fragment to be deposited in the snake. However, it must be recalled that at the time of Frank Bryce’s murder, Voldemort was still in his “Vapormort” state, and it seems unlikely that he would have had the power to create a Horcrux even if he had intended to do so."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is not true. Voldy was in his Vapormort state only up until Wormtail found him in Albania and "...returned [Voldemort]to a rudimentary, weak body of [his] own." (GOF p569, Adult Edition)


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Last edited by Vampirjaeger; June 29th, 2007 at 8:59 am.
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  #18  
Old June 29th, 2007, 1:46 pm
Andromeda_T  Female.gif Andromeda_T is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

I have to say I was impressed by this theory. The idea that Voldemort did not cast the Avada Kedavra curse at Harry was quite a shock to the system!

I do like to hear new, completely different theories - it broadens the possibilities of some of them actually being right! This one did give convincing explanations for the 'gleam of triumph' and Voldy's insistence on using Harry to regenerate which I thought was great. I do share other readers' concerns about how it could all be fitted into the book, though.

"Unless in the middle of the battle Harry invited Voldemort for a cup of tea and they'll spend 100 pages discussing..." [hpboy13]

I also think being the victim of a Dementor's Kiss would be a fitting end for Voldemort, but that could be a bit of an anticlimax following a big battle. And as someone else mentioned, death is his worst fear, so we kind of want to subject him to that, as well...

The editorial's author expressed concern in the footnotes about spells that were missing in the Priori Incantetem of Voldy's wand. I just wanted to point out that they were not actually all missing - between the shadows of AK victims emerging, screams of pain emitted from the wand, clearly representing the Cruciatus curse performed on various different people. Easy to forget though, as nothing visual appeared for the reader to picture.


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Old June 29th, 2007, 3:37 pm
DarkFire17  Undisclosed.gif DarkFire17 is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

"I also think being the victim of a Dementor's Kiss would be a fitting end for Voldemort, but that could be a bit of an anticlimax following a big battle."

I say it should be his end because he thinks there's nothing worth than death; proving him wrong would be a very nice end. I agree that it would kind of be like an anticlimax though.. I wonder what Harry/everyone else will do after the battle?


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Old June 29th, 2007, 3:54 pm
snglbuddy  Undisclosed.gif snglbuddy is offline
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Re: The Sixth Horcrux and the Final Confrontation

Stating that these editorials will be based "solely on the text" and then Ignoring the text is, perhaps, not the most persuasive not logical manner to promote your ideas.

When Voldemort killed Frank Bryce he was Not still Vapormort. wormtail had already returned him to "...a rudimentary body of his own" in which he could travel and which it would be easy to hold a wand and Harry himself, later in the book questions.


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