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Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis



 
 
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  #21  
Old July 30th, 2007, 4:19 pm
Emperor_Gestahl  Male.gif Emperor_Gestahl is offline
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by TENSHI View Post
There are more. Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle for example.

Even if some student's parents are not directly DEs, they still could support Voldemort.
Not example, they ar the only four that we know of and if you closely examine the chapter "the Lost Diadem" you will find that what happens too Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle is already explained. And i'm not saying that they don't support Voldemort, I'm saying that it was never mentioned that they actually joined the battle on the Death Eater side.


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  #22  
Old July 30th, 2007, 5:38 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Voldemort, p641 U.S.
"If your son is dead, Lucius, it is not my fault. He did not come and join me, like the rest of the Slytherins... "
The Slytherins fought against other Hogwarts students in the final battle.


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  #23  
Old July 30th, 2007, 6:40 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by purplehawk View Post
The Slytherins fought against other Hogwarts students in the final battle.
Yeah and I thought that was disappointing. What was the whole point of house unity blabbering if in the last book the Slytherins are painted as a bunch of dark wizards?

I mean, I still think that there must be some Slytherins who are against Voldemort. But alas, we didn't get that


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  #24  
Old July 30th, 2007, 8:10 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

I think the big deal was that the Malfoys didn't take part on the battle in the end.

Other Slytherins didn't play a big role in all books and I didn't believe in a redeem of them anyway and also not in a united Hogwarts. You can't let a whole house redeem themself within one year, when they are connected to the evil since centuries.

@ purp:
But we still don't see any Slytherin fighting in the end.


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  #25  
Old July 30th, 2007, 8:50 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

First of all: It doesn't matter what JK Rowling says about Slytherin outside the books. What counts is what's in them and there, the Slytherins are, for some very, very, very tiny few exceptions - bad.

And I don't like this image of this house because the sorting hat tells otherwise in his song.

I once made a very detailed House-Analysis of every Hogwarts-House based on the songs of the sorting hat. Unfortunately it's in German and it would take a while to translate it.

Based on what we know from the sorting hat, we know that Slytherins are cunning and ambitious. (Apart from the fact that traditional purebloods seem to have their place no matter what other characteristics they have.) They want to acheive something in life and they don't rush to things like Gryffindors do, but tend to ponder and plan. They are strategic minds.
You never see a Slytherin in a book choose the simple way over the elegant way, if he can help it. Lord Voldemort and even Draco Malfoy make plans, cunning plans, well thought out and strategic - and much bigger than they would have to be. (I remember the big discussions about why GOF has to be such a long book, you could just have transformed any object into a portkey. The answer is - it wouldn't show the superiority Uncle Voldy wanted to display. He wanted to triumph with a big plan, right under Dumbledore's nose. This is something of a trademark to him - as it is to other Slytherins we know.)

I've always seen them as rather political persons - essentially conservative politicans. They are what you could call "patriots" and they don't want things to chance. What they fear most is insecurity and change.

Salazar Slytherin wanted to protect Hogwarts against Muggles - and you can argue, if you want, that this was a clever and necessary thing to do at the time. Medival Muggles were afraid of witches and wizards and even though their ridiculous burning methods were denounced as being ineffective - muggleborns were a danger to the not yet fully constituted wizarding world, as they were to the muggles they came from.
So - you can tell that Salazar Slytherins ideas had their right to be in the beginning, and that they weren't meant to be racist. (I rather suspect that history has been written by Gryffindors and have made him worse than he had been)

Anyways, over time, his measures and fears had become totally unnecessary, as the wizarding world is now well protected and Muggles don't fear or burn witches and wizards anymore. But inside this world, those who have gained power - and we see that it's mostly Slytherin purebloods, don't want to give up their power, nor the system that guarantees it to them.

The so-called purity of blood was losing much of its power already when Voldemort first got into play. He came and promised them to get something back they were at the brick of losing. And in their greed and lust for power - or simple fear of losing what they had had for centuries, they joined him. And they were deseived. I would dearly have loved to see at least some of them realize that they had been cheated by Voldemort!

You see, Slytherin is a house that goes very deep, with its very own concerns, questions and good and wrong decisions. But it's not in the books, finally, it's just a potential that's not used.

So - I was wrong, because I'm not Mrs. Rowling and I haven't written the books myself. She had put in all the details and the potential of what Slytherin could have been - it just seems to me that she either forgot about it or wasn't brave enough to actually use it. Perhaps because it would have blurred the boundaries between "good" and "evil" too much?

Essentially, interhouse unity is a utopia she's talking about but not showing. Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw are colorless and reduced to a few sidekicks. The book is finally all about Gryffindors, shiny knights in bright armours who need their public and their tales sung. All the bad clichés other houses are telling about Gryffindor are true. They just crave to be in the spotlight and the Harry Potter books are finally, essentially all about Gryffindors, their lifes and lies, victories and defeats. With one exception - Severus Snape. But then, he was in love with a Gryffindor and that's been his motivation.

This is the greatest disappointment I had after reading the final book. That there are houses with different and interesting characters who should unite forces against those who menace them - but they don't. And we just don't know why they don't.


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  #26  
Old July 30th, 2007, 8:59 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

I was so shocked that the Slytherins all upped and left. I always had some image that the Slytherins could be good, and would somehow play in the redemptive pattern, but when all of them left shocked me. Were they all reall as bad as Harry thought?


  #27  
Old July 30th, 2007, 9:33 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

I thought the potrayal of the Slytherin house was poor and disapointing. I would've preferred a least a handful of the Slytherin's finally realize what's really going on and stand up for something. And I don't think it would've been uncharacteristic. They're not all one mind and could've come to their own conclussions about Voldermort/DE, even if it meant going against their families and beliefs they had been taught (like Regulus). They've had years to stand in the sidelines and ponder their status and with the world seemingly crumbling around them, I'd think at least some of them would finally have the blinder removed from their eyes.


I'm sure their role (or lack of) was thrown in their faces for years to come and it's no wonder poor Albus Severus dreaded being put in that house. The stigma of being in the house came full circle with Harry's kid.


  #28  
Old July 30th, 2007, 11:51 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

I believe in her interviews, Jo kept saying how surprised she was that fans would even think about being in Slytherin. Now, we can say for sure just how bad, selfish, ambitious they were.

NOT ONE Slytherin stayed to fight off Voldemort, but three stayed behind to fight Potter, and one (Pansy) tried to get them to turn him over. Voldemort told his parents that Draco didn't come out of the school and join him like the other Slytherins. Maybe we needed to see the path from Hogsmeade to Hogwarts littered with the bodies of Slytherins who'd come out through the Hogshead, joined Voldemort and tried to stop the townspeople from reaching the school?

Even the epilogue might be used as a sign that Slytherins weren't that bad when Harry tells his son if chosen he'd be an asset to that House, and how brave Snape had been. Personally I'd have prefered it if after 19 years they broke with tradition and Sorted after year one.
The only Slytherins that showed any good were Slughorn, Snape and Phineas Nigellus (and that's not saying much). They were also adults who'd had time to reflect and show remorse, perhaps.


  #29  
Old July 31st, 2007, 5:14 am
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by rareb View Post
You see, Slytherin is a house that goes very deep, with its very own concerns, questions and good and wrong decisions. But it's not in the books, finally, it's just a potential that's not used.

So - I was wrong, because I'm not Mrs. Rowling and I haven't written the books myself. She had put in all the details and the potential of what Slytherin could have been - it just seems to me that she either forgot about it or wasn't brave enough to actually use it. Perhaps because it would have blurred the boundaries between "good" and "evil" too much?

Essentially, interhouse unity is a utopia she's talking about but not showing. Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw are colorless and reduced to a few sidekicks. The book is finally all about Gryffindors, shiny knights in bright armours who need their public and their tales sung. All the bad clichés other houses are telling about Gryffindor are true. They just crave to be in the spotlight and the Harry Potter books are finally, essentially all about Gryffindors, their lifes and lies, victories and defeats. With one exception - Severus Snape. But then, he was in love with a Gryffindor and that's been his motivation.

This is the greatest disappointment I had after reading the final book. That there are houses with different and interesting characters who should unite forces against those who menace them - but they don't. And we just don't know why they don't.

This is the disadvantage of the books having a one person POV. Harry is a Gryffindor and is bias.

I personally don't really think they are all that good with their general holier than thou attitude, but we aren't shown any many who are evil. McLaggen is dimwitted, Vane is scheming, James and Sirius were gits in school, but they aren't evil. Lockhart was vain and I suppose kind of evil(his house was never specified but I think he was a Gyff), but he was not specified in that house. Yes Wormtail was a DE, but this is wasted because it is also never stated in text that he was in that house(though most likely). There was never someone from Gryffindor that we got to know so their turn to bad would be more personal.
Basically, we are shown 'holier than thou' Gryffs that turn out to be really holier than thou. But I'm getting off topic.


JKR says all of the houses have Death Eaters but the only one we ever see is Peter Pettigrew? She says that Slytherins aren't all bad but we only get a handful and Severus is the only one we know well. The others are practically extras. We get Andromeda Tonks is not stated directly in text as a having been in Slytherin so her character is wasted. Regulus, like Severus, was a DE's before he became good. Phineas and Slughorn, like other said, were very old and have had a lot of time to laminate over their priorities. Is JKR messing with us?

Basically, we got 7 books of most of the same.All houses have developed very little and it is ridiculous. Good=Gryffindor Bad=Slytherin. No Slytherins as part of the DA/Resistance and all the students leaving before the battle was the straw that broke the camels back. She says DE children are a "small percentage" but most of the Slytherins we've met are DE children and/or Voldemort supporters. We told the houses have to stick together to get rid of evil yet we get much of the same Gryffindors, backed by Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff, against Slytherin.

I agree that this is the most disappointing things in the books. It's "choices" this and "choices" that so if you're good you'll 'chose' not to be a Slytherin? That's Bull and it seems to me that JKR is perpetuating the same prejudice she fights against (not to judge a book by its cover). And yes as I said in a earlier post, there was room for character development. Not just with the Malfoy but with lesser known Slytherins like Crabbe, Goyle, Zabini, Greengrass, Nott, Davis, the list goes on and on. She wussed out and unfortunantly we are stuck with a lot of 'the same' since she isn't going to make another book.


  #30  
Old July 31st, 2007, 8:09 am
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

Agreed, we're at the end of the book and finally when Harry thinks that it would be okay if his son would be placed in Slytherin, it turns out that he was right all along. You can't be Slytherin without being evil at some point in your life. It's impossible.


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  #31  
Old July 31st, 2007, 10:08 am
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Emperor_Gestahl View Post
Agreed, we're at the end of the book and finally when Harry thinks that it would be okay if his son would be placed in Slytherin, it turns out that he was right all along. You can't be Slytherin without being evil at some point in your life. It's impossible.
I've been thinking about that.I never ever liked the slytherins,I have not respect or admiration for them in anyway.But snape sorting and behaviour forced me to think about it.
It does seem that if you in Slytherin you have alot riding against you.They're an amibitous lot,they value people on their achievement,being there you'd feel you have to do some for recognition.They're not dependable or trustworthy,you'd always be watching your back,maybe even being paraniod. Your surrounded by Darks arts.Other houses will take an instant dislike to you. I wonder how many Slytherins had friendships outside of thier own house? I doubt they were encouraged by each other to do so. People are of the general opinion that they are an evil lot which they really proved themselves to be in the end.I'm not sticking up for them,I still severly dislike them. Sirius black is evidence that you can break the mould and be someone else.Strange that this behaviour is not exibited in even one Slytherin.


  #32  
Old July 31st, 2007, 10:12 am
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

I'm taking back what i said, someone on Gamefaqs made a good point that i think we should consider. The Slytherin's didn't actually leave the Great Hall on their own accord; They were ordered to do so by McGonagall after Park's outburst, the Professor apparantly thought them a liability to their safety.


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  #33  
Old July 31st, 2007, 10:15 am
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Emperor_Gestahl View Post
I'm taking back what i said, someone on Gamefaqs made a good point that i think we should consider. The Slytherin's didn't actually leave the Great Hall on their own accord; They were ordered to do so by McGonagall after Park's outburst, the Professor apparantly thought them a liability to their safety.
They were, weren't they? Only Slytherins even considered the possibility of handing Harry over to Voldemort.


  #34  
Old July 31st, 2007, 10:19 am
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

'Doesn't things hadn't gona differently if they weren't ordered to walk straight into the enemies hands.


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  #35  
Old July 31st, 2007, 10:53 am
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

I'd just like to point out that it was Pansy who wanted to give Harry up, not all Slytherins. Though I have to say it's fairly understandable in a way, after all the rest of the school expect you to fight against the most powerful wizard alive at that moment and his minions, many of which are your own housemates parents. In a Slytherin mindset that would be to literally commit suicide, the Death Eaters are supposed to be rather powerful after all and you're just a student. The fact that McGonagall later order the Slytherins to get out probably stopped any volunteering since they yet again are seen as the bad guys who everyone else hates. At this point even the teachers turn against them. I'd hardly like to stay under those conditions, but that's just me.

Though I have to say that I was rather disappointed in the portrayal of Slytherin in the books, they're constantly pointed out as the "bad guys" yet we're told only a handfull of them have parents who're Death Eaters/are allied with Voldemort, most likely because we see Slytherin from a Gryffindor perspective. I also think that the other houses partially have to blaim themselves partially for Slytherin's isolation, after all the other houses always support each other but not Slytherin (for example in Quidditch). If I was a Slytherin I'd hardly want to get to know people from other houses then seeing as they apparently hate Slytherins, and this in turn leads to yet a greater rift between the houses.

What I think people miss is that since Slytherin is so isolated they probably build up a stronger community than in the other houses seeing as they most likely only have each other which might also be the reason why no one volunteers among the Slytherins. They would be betraying the rest of them and they're the only friends/associates they have.

I can only feel sorry for the new Slytherins after the battle of Hogwarts. I have the feeling they will be even more scorned and hated for not fighting with the rest of the houses against Voldemort. Though in a way I hope that some people in the other houses will actually realise that if they continue isolating Slytherin they only weaken themselves seeing as how Slytherin will only turn against them. And yeah, I'm biased towards Slytherin.


  #36  
Old July 31st, 2007, 11:09 am
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

My point is, that it is absolutely possible to create characters that fit the Slytherin-Criteria as sung by the sorting hat and still not make them bad in the general sense of the word.
I know this, because I have done this. With some friends we have created a rather unusual role-play with original characters based on detailed house-analysis. So, we've got deep and interesting characters for every house, we have forced them to work together - and it works without hurting the criteria of the sorting hat.

So, granted, when I read the final book I was hoping for something similar to happen there, too. That finally, we were going to see interhouse unity at play, fully forged out characters for every house who show the qualities and the problems of their house. But it didn't happen. That's what was disappointing me the most.

We've got one Ravenclaw that's a bit more shaped out, that's Luna. We've got one Hufflepuff, that's Cedric (I'm not sure, though). As for Slytherin, they're just bad and selfish. Well, in our roleplay (which isn't "better" than the books or anything, I wouldn't dare to say anyone could write the HP-World better than its inventor), they are selfish, they are real *******s - but they aren't bad and not worse than others. I have a great affection for the Slytherins as I see them, because they're easily tempted, they want to reach something, be someone in life and in being so, they're easy victims for people who don't mean well with people in general, like Voldemort.

For me, certain Slytherins were always the royalists in the Republic of Weimar just before WWII. Those people who wanted the monarchy back, who thought that with a strong Führer, all the ancient glory of the German Reich would come back, when they had something to say in the world and were something. They weren't bad persons, and they certainly didn't want to happen what happened to the jews - but they didn't see their error early enough. They thought they could control Hitler when they helped him into power, just to find out he hadn't in mind to bring back the old monarchy as they wanted it.
I've always thought that certain Death Eaters were of that kind. Maybe the Malfoys, but you can't tell in the end. At least some of them should have been shown realize what they've done and that Voldemort wasn't really on their side. (Because he didn't care for anyone but himself)

The same waste of potential can be observed with Hufflepuff. In my opinion, Hufflepuff is the most demanding house. Helga took the lot because she was caring and loyal - but to be a true Hufflepuff to the heart, you have to put the interests of the group before your own, you are expected to be loyal to the core and hardworking without ever expecting to get praise for that. The Hufflepuffs are the good-natured helpers of the hero. Those who take up everything he does, too, but never make it into the final tales because they're just the supporters.
I value them much more than the Gryffindors who are ever at the center of the tale.


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  #37  
Old July 31st, 2007, 1:27 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

Cedric wasn't at all different from other Hufflepuffs, he was just very good at it. The most interesting from their lot was Zach Smith. He stands out as a Hufflepuf (seeing as Harry recognised him as their Seeker... While at the last Quidditch match Cedric still held that position...).


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  #38  
Old July 31st, 2007, 6:58 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Somnium View Post
I'd just like to point out that it was Pansy who wanted to give Harry up, not all Slytherins. Though I have to say it's fairly understandable in a way, after all the rest of the school expect you to fight against the most powerful wizard alive at that moment and his minions, many of which are your own housemates parents. In a Slytherin mindset that would be to literally commit suicide, the Death Eaters are supposed to be rather powerful after all and you're just a student. The fact that McGonagall later order the Slytherins to get out probably stopped any volunteering since they yet again are seen as the bad guys who everyone else hates. At this point even the teachers turn against them. I'd hardly like to stay under those conditions, but that's just me.

Though I have to say that I was rather disappointed in the portrayal of Slytherin in the books, they're constantly pointed out as the "bad guys" yet we're told only a handfull of them have parents who're Death Eaters/are allied with Voldemort, most likely because we see Slytherin from a Gryffindor perspective. I also think that the other houses partially have to blaim themselves partially for Slytherin's isolation, after all the other houses always support each other but not Slytherin (for example in Quidditch). If I was a Slytherin I'd hardly want to get to know people from other houses then seeing as they apparently hate Slytherins, and this in turn leads to yet a greater rift between the houses.

What I think people miss is that since Slytherin is so isolated they probably build up a stronger community than in the other houses seeing as they most likely only have each other which might also be the reason why no one volunteers among the Slytherins. They would be betraying the rest of them and they're the only friends/associates they have.

I can only feel sorry for the new Slytherins after the battle of Hogwarts. I have the feeling they will be even more scorned and hated for not fighting with the rest of the houses against Voldemort. Though in a way I hope that some people in the other houses will actually realise that if they continue isolating Slytherin they only weaken themselves seeing as how Slytherin will only turn against them. And yeah, I'm biased towards Slytherin.

I agree and you have given me a new perspective of the situation. Why should Slytherin's risk your lives in order to defend a school that hates them? It's not cowardice that kept them from coming back, it's spite. I know if I were rudely told to leave because of the actions of one of my housemates there is no way I would respect them, much less risk my life to save any of them. They were told how the school felt about them it they made it very clear that they weren't wanted. I would just let them all die.


  #39  
Old July 31st, 2007, 7:20 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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I agree and you have given me a new perspective of the situation. Why should Slytherin's risk your lives in order to defend a school that hates them? It's not cowardice that kept them from coming back, it's spite. I know if I were rudely told to leave because of the actions of one of my housemates there is no way I would respect them, much less risk my life to save any of them. They were told how the school felt about them it they made it very clear that they weren't wanted. I would just let them all die.
You can't defend the Slytherin's though, Voldemort said many of them joined him after. The school may "hate them" only because they hate the school. Slytherin's set themselves apart from the rest of the school, especially when Voldemort has come to power, now they will be able to rise and practice the Dark Arts like they like and other stuff. The Slytherin's cause any pain they may receive.


  #40  
Old July 31st, 2007, 8:19 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

I think you missed the whole point of my argument which was that their actions were not cowardly and many would have done the same if they were rejected.

You're stereotyping all Slytherins as evil for the actions of a few of them. Crabbe, Goyle, and Malfoy stayed to fight against the school and that is the extent of our knowledge. Many could have just meant them for all we know. Did all of the Slytheriins deserve to be treated like that? Unless you buy that hogwash about all Slytherins being evil then no they did not. We don't know because we have not meet them all but I'm inclined to believe that at least some of them were against it. But they were told to leave and decided that they'd give the other students something to stereotype them about by letting them die.


 
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