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Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis



 
 
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  #41  
Old July 31st, 2007, 10:04 pm
Emperor_Gestahl  Male.gif Emperor_Gestahl is offline
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

The fight wasnt about destroying Hogwarts, they were protecting Harry. Harry Potter has made very clear that he doesn't want friendship from the Slytherins, we all know that.


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  #42  
Old July 31st, 2007, 10:49 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

I'm just going by what we are told in the book.
DH; Pg, 602"The time has come for Slytherin House to decide upon its loyalties," interrupted Professor McGonagall. "Go and wake your students, Horace."
DH; Pg. 610"...evacuation will be overseen by Mr. Filch and Madam Pomfrey. Prefects, when I give the word, you will organize your House and take your charges, in an orderly fashion, to the evacuation point.

"If you are of age, you may stay," said Professor McGonagall.

Then a figure from the rose from the Slytherin table and he recognized Pansy Parkinson as she raised a shaking arm and screamed, "But he's there! Potter's there! Someone grab him!"
Before Harry could speak, there was a massive movement. The Gryffindors in front of him had risen and stood facing, not Harry but the Slytherins. Then the Hufflepuffs stood, and almost at the same moment, the Ravenclaws, all of them with their backs to Harry, all of them looking toward Pansy instead, and Harry, awestruck and overwhelmed, saw wands emerging everywere, pulled from beneath cloaks and from under sleeves.
"Thank you, Miss Parkinson," said Professor McGonagall in a clipped voice. "You will leave the Hall first with Mr. Filch. If the rest of your House could follow.
The Slytherins were not going to stay no matter what. Pansy was about to start a duel within the school itself, Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw and Gryffindor against Slytherin. They were asked to leave because they were against the rest of the school, the rest of the school was not against them, the Slytherins had chosen who they were loyal to, and that was not Harry, or Hogwarts or McGonagall, they were loyal to Voldemort and themselves.
DH; Pg. 641"If your son is dead, Lucius, it is not my fault. He did not come and join me , like the rest of the Slytherins. Perhaps he has decided to befriend Harry Potter?"
They were all supposed to be going to the evacuation point, the Slytherins, however, joined in the fight against Harry and Hogwarts.


  #43  
Old August 1st, 2007, 12:10 am
HermyRonnie  Female.gif HermyRonnie is offline
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

Oh, and another thing, Snape is mentioned as one of the good Slytherins that fought YET . . . JKRowling wrote in DD telling him that he thinks they sort too soon sometimes. What does that mean? That since Snape was doing a brave thing he should've been in another house?

The whole book perpetrated and furthered the stigma of being in/being a Slytherin.


  #44  
Old August 1st, 2007, 4:23 am
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

I've always thought that Slytherin kind of got the short end of the stick, so to speak, which I think is unfortunate and kind of one-dimensional. One of the few things that bugged me about the series, considering the lengths that were gone to to make most of the characters seem human, and the variety of personality types we see in the other houses. On the other hand, I also think it's sort of a tricky house...easy to see why most of the bad guys would fit there, and harder to place a good character there than in any of the other houses. Hard to tell whether this was JK's intention all along, or if it just ended up being a by-product of the original houses' descriptions that she got locked into.

It's the house for the cutthroat, ambitious types, which is a quality that, IMO, leans more towards being evil than any of the other houses' personalities (which tend towards being good or neutral). They're also described as cunning, which to me implies sneakiness and going behind people's backs and whatnot. This is not to say that you can't use your cunning for good purposes, or that all ambitious people are necessarily bad (seems to be a prized personality trait in the US, even), but it can also lead to a lot of ugliness. And of course, taking over the wizarding world is certainly an ambitious goal, so all those aspiring dark lords will end up in Slytherin. Combine that with the fact that Salazar only wanted to teach purebloods, and it really starts to go downhill. Under these circumstances, I think it's not so much that good Slytherins can't exist so much as the fact that most of the 'bad guys' are going to be very well suited for Slytherin, so the house ends up looking disproportionate.

I'm not really sure how this could have been avoided in the books...maybe a couple well-rounded, non-evil Slytherin characters would have helped, or at least some more favorable-sounding sorting hat descriptions. I was also kind of annoyed when Dumbledore suggested to Snape that he perhaps should have been in Gryffindor instead...it was basically like he was saying any true Slytherins could ever be good. There was definitely a prejudice against the house, even when there were no wars going on, and I wonder if this constant "you are evil and we don't like you" message actually contributed to having some of the Slytherins live up to that stereotype, when they otherwise might not have.


  #45  
Old August 1st, 2007, 9:41 am
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Godric View Post
I'm just going by what we are told in the book.
DH; Pg, 602"The time has come for Slytherin House to decide upon its loyalties," interrupted Professor McGonagall. "Go and wake your students, Horace."
DH; Pg. 610"...evacuation will be overseen by Mr. Filch and Madam Pomfrey. Prefects, when I give the word, you will organize your House and take your charges, in an orderly fashion, to the evacuation point.

"If you are of age, you may stay," said Professor McGonagall.

Then a figure from the rose from the Slytherin table and he recognized Pansy Parkinson as she raised a shaking arm and screamed, "But he's there! Potter's there! Someone grab him!"
Before Harry could speak, there was a massive movement. The Gryffindors in front of him had risen and stood facing, not Harry but the Slytherins. Then the Hufflepuffs stood, and almost at the same moment, the Ravenclaws, all of them with their backs to Harry, all of them looking toward Pansy instead, and Harry, awestruck and overwhelmed, saw wands emerging everywere, pulled from beneath cloaks and from under sleeves.
"Thank you, Miss Parkinson," said Professor McGonagall in a clipped voice. "You will leave the Hall first with Mr. Filch. If the rest of your House could follow.
The Slytherins were not going to stay no matter what. Pansy was about to start a duel within the school itself, Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw and Gryffindor against Slytherin. They were asked to leave because they were against the rest of the school, the rest of the school was not against them, the Slytherins had chosen who they were loyal to, and that was not Harry, or Hogwarts or McGonagall, they were loyal to Voldemort and themselves.
They were looking toward, Pansy not toward Slytherin's in gneral. They didn't do anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Godric View Post
DH; Pg. 641"If your son is dead, Lucius, it is not my fault. He did not come and join me , like the rest of the Slytherins. Perhaps he has decided to befriend Harry Potter?"
They were all supposed to be going to the evacuation point, the Slytherins, however, joined in the fight against Harry and Hogwarts.
There was no evacuation point. all Slytherins and underage students went to the Room of Requirement and were to go to Hogsmeade which was already in DE hands.


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  #46  
Old August 1st, 2007, 10:11 am
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Maia View Post
It's the house for the cutthroat, ambitious types, which is a quality that, IMO, leans more towards being evil than any of the other houses' personalities (which tend towards being good or neutral).
I disagree. Gryffindor is or would be at least as dangerous as Slytherin. Because Gryffindors always want to proof themselves and they want to be acknowledged for that. (We see that with practically every Gryffindor character we ever meet, in short: all the Weasleys (just look at Ron and Percy, and figure out why Fred and George did the joke-shop thing), Hermione (why does she do everything to be top of the class?), Neville - maybe at the exception of Harry, because he's so famous he doesn't have to) Gryffindors don't do brave things for nothing. And this can be - as we see with young Sirius, downright dangerous. If you would give the opportunity to shine in a battle to a spotlight-craving Gryffindor, he would most probably take it - no matter what. Just look what happened to young Albus Dumbledore who thought he could take over the world "for the greater good" - it's utter arrogance and many, many, many of the worst things in the world have been done because someone believed he knew better than anyone what's good for people. Dumbledore was a Gryffindor, too.

Gryffindor has the advantage that the hero of the books is in their house and the villain is clearly linked to Slytherin. But from the original onset, it could easily have been the other way around.

Quote:
This is not to say that you can't use your cunning for good purposes, or that all ambitious people are necessarily bad (seems to be a prized personality trait in the US, even)
And it would have been easy to put in one or two characters who are like this and who aren't linked to any Gryffindor by undying love.

Quote:
Under these circumstances, I think it's not so much that good Slytherins can't exist so much as the fact that most of the 'bad guys' are going to be very well suited for Slytherin, so the house ends up looking disproportionate.

I'm not really sure how this could have been avoided in the books...
It could. I'd even say easily. And I'd go even further that with one of the general objectives of the books (show that basically everyone is human), it should have been done, one way or the other. It's a potential that's in the story, but not in the books. And that's something that's disappointing me. Because I don't want to be comforted with "but we only see a few of them, and maybe the rest..." That's not how literature works.

Quote:
I was also kind of annoyed when Dumbledore suggested to Snape that he perhaps should have been in Gryffindor instead...it was basically like he was saying any true Slytherins could ever be good. There was definitely a prejudice against the house, even when there were no wars going on, and I wonder if this constant "you are evil and we don't like you" message actually contributed to having some of the Slytherins live up to that stereotype, when they otherwise might not have.
Exactly. 100% agree.


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  #47  
Old August 1st, 2007, 11:41 am
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Maia View Post
I was also kind of annoyed when Dumbledore suggested to Snape that he perhaps should have been in Gryffindor instead...it was basically like he was saying any true Slytherins could ever be good. There was definitely a prejudice against the house, even when there were no wars going on, and I wonder if this constant "you are evil and we don't like you" message actually contributed to having some of the Slytherins live up to that stereotype, when they otherwise might not have.
I posted before that being a slytherin you have a lot going against you.The characterics;great,ambition,cunnings,blood value,that people may posses are brought out even more.The thing is seems hard to be in slytherin and not be cast in the slytherin mould.
Snape show great bravery and a certain amount of sacrfice,if he had been in another house,he may not have turned out the way he was.Though this is true of all students.To me it almost as if he's saying that 11 is too early too judge someone,which I can't say I disagree with.


  #48  
Old August 1st, 2007, 11:53 am
Emperor_Gestahl  Male.gif Emperor_Gestahl is offline
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

So, the isolating of the Slytherin House made Snape turn to the Death Eaters. Is his putting in a different house a solution? No, off course not! It underlines the problem, more like.


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  #49  
Old August 1st, 2007, 12:01 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Emperor_Gestahl View Post
So, the isolating of the Slytherin House made Snape turn to the Death Eaters. Is his putting in a different house a solution? No, off course not! It underlines the problem, more like.
I don't mean just Snape.Dumbledore did have a point.Can you really take an 11 year and accuratly judge what kind of person they're are going to be for the rest of their life?Because which ever house they'll be will effect them won't it?it will further mould their character.


  #50  
Old August 1st, 2007, 3:13 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Emperor_Gestahl View Post
The fight wasnt about destroying Hogwarts, they were protecting Harry. Harry Potter has made very clear that he doesn't want friendship from the Slytherins, we all know that.
I think that throughout the books, it was not only that Harry has shown that he does not want a relationship with Slytherins, but the entirety of Gryffindor house and the entirety of Slytherin house that has shown a mutual dislike for each other. Harry is just one example.


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  #51  
Old August 1st, 2007, 4:39 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

OK, I honestly don't know why so many are upset at Slytherin not staying and fighting. To me the fact that they didn't stay and fight shows intelligence, not cowardice. Remember that was a "hail mary" battle and much more suited to the over the top bravado of the Gryffindor house. Slytherin's could not care less about having brave deeds to their name, they care about survival. And if we are ever to have a continuance of any race, we have to have people who see a hail mary fight for what it is. Let's be realistic and pretend that this was a real war. How many of you really think that a bunch of sixth and seven year, should have been able to match Voldemort's front? That little "let's stand and protect Harry and Drive out all of the Bad Slytherins" was totally unrealistic to me. Granted, somebody should have stunned Pansy Parkinson, but Marietta outed Harry as well and her life wasn't at stake. Anyway, pointing he's right there wouldn't have given Voldemort much direction if every head didn't turn. or eyes slide. If no one moved she would have just looked like an idiot. Maybe it's just me, but I think that rational thing for the time. Also remember how every house turned against Harry in the second book and for a while in the fourth and fifth? At least the Slytherin's didn't turn into hypocrites.


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  #52  
Old August 1st, 2007, 5:03 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

Yeah, but Severus Snape I believe stands out as a great example of a good-hearted Slytherin. I mean I agree that JK Rowling shouldn't have just let all the slytherins leave like that and maybe have kept a few students as an example that not all Syltherins are evil. But, although she didn't there are still many examples of good Slytherin such as Andromeda Black and Severus Snape.


  #53  
Old August 1st, 2007, 5:50 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by BlackSerpent7 View Post
OK, I honestly don't know why so many are upset at Slytherin not staying and fighting. To me the fact that they didn't stay and fight shows intelligence, not cowardice. Remember that was a "hail mary" battle and much more suited to the over the top bravado of the Gryffindor house. Slytherin's could not care less about having brave deeds to their name, they care about survival. And if we are ever to have a continuance of any race, we have to have people who see a hail mary fight for what it is. Let's be realistic and pretend that this was a real war. How many of you really think that a bunch of sixth and seven year, should have been able to match Voldemort's front? That little "let's stand and protect Harry and Drive out all of the Bad Slytherins" was totally unrealistic to me.
Forgive me if I'm remembering wrong, but didn't the Slytherin students join Voldemort's side? (I read the book rather fast, so it's possible that I'm confusing something).


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  #54  
Old August 1st, 2007, 6:09 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Rell View Post
Forgive me if I'm remembering wrong, but didn't the Slytherin students join Voldemort's side? (I read the book rather fast, so it's possible that I'm confusing something).
What happened was that all students who weren't 6 or 7 years (if I remember correctly) was to be evacuated to Hogsmeade via the RoR but all Slytherins were more or less forced to go to Hogsmeade. Since Hogsmeade was in the DEs hands Voldemort could easily have seen this as that everyone who arrived in Hogsmeade were actually loyal to him or at least feared him enough not to want to fight. Since the whole Slytherin house shows up and there are a few students who are children of DEs Voldemort may have seen this as a proof of Slytherin's loyalties.

This would also explain why Voldemort accused Draco for betraying him as he didn't show up together with the rest of the Slytherins in Hogsmeade. To Voldemort everyone who stayed in the castle was to be killed as they obviously opposed his rule.


  #55  
Old August 1st, 2007, 6:49 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

It also annoys me that Slytherins were portrayed throught the first 6 books as evil [or certainly not good] and that the vision didn't change in book 7, even though JKR herself said that Slytherins aren't all evil.

It seems that house members only go with the original image of the house founder, as there are very few instances of individuals that separate themselves from the usual house characteristics [eg Wormtail, Regulus Black -- arguable as the change occured after they graduated, Zacharis Smith and a few others]. Meaning, if Salazar Slytherin was cunning, and ambitious, and self-preservative, all the Slytherins must be like that and only like that. Bravery is a Gryffindor trait and a Gryffindor trait exclusivly; thus, no Slytherin must be brave. And this is just unfair. Human beings are very complicated, and they cannot go only by four predominant traits: cunning, brave, loyal or smart.

Yet the statement above is contradicting itself. For example, we have Hermione, who is smart, yet a Gryffindor. Before you say that Hermione has proven herself to be brave -- and she has -- note that in the beginning, you would have certainly said that she isn't the usual Gryffindor image, she's more Ravenclaw. And there's Dumbledore; he wanted power, desired it, which is definetely a Slytherin trait, thing which affected all his life.

Anyway, getting to the Slytherin point. People relate too much to the house founder's image. Salazar Slytherin separated himself from the other founders for his belifs; he is seen as a traitor, as someone who didn't stick till the end because he was a coward. Hufflepuffs, Ravenclaws and Gryffindors especially, tend to have this image of Slytherins. Yet they forget the original Slytherin traits -- cunning, ambitious, self-preservative. Just because someone is cunning, ambitious and/or self-preservative, does it mean that he/she will end up being a traitor or a coward, or that he/she can't be brave, smart, loyal as well?
Fact is, the other houses didn't understand the Slytherins and never tried. They stuck to the prejudices they heard about them and that caused the rift of Slytherin House.

In the Hogwarts Battle, I can understand why, after McGonagall's and the rest of the school's attitude, no Slytherin remained. Slytherins seem people that, in a crises situation, do something only if it is absolutely necessary for them to do and if it doesn't affect them, unlike Gryffindors, who would fight, even if they had no chance of winning. Add this plus the fact that nobody seemed reluctant to side with them. And you can see why they didn't remain. It wasn't coward of them that they did it; it is just that they stuck to their original self-preservative nature.

About Dumbledore's remark that wizards sort too soon. It can be seen both ways. Either he was referring to the fact that, because Snape was ambitious and cunning, having predominant Slyhterin traits, that didn't mean that he couldn't have entirely changed, to reach traits of other houses as predominant traits. In this case, Dumbledore was probably protesting about the fact that people had to sort into houses, and had to do that at 11, an age when they are most likely to change, and change in a wide sense of the word, and because that would certainly affect their entire lives. Or he was indeed implying the fact that Slytherins are evil, and that it was a pity that Snape had to be a Slytherin. That certainly would be really unfair, imoral and unwise.



Last edited by chapter33; August 1st, 2007 at 7:01 pm. Reason: spelling
  #56  
Old August 1st, 2007, 6:50 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Emperor_Gestahl View Post
They were looking toward, Pansy not toward Slytherin's in gneral. They didn't do anything.
DH; Pg. 610The Gryffindors in front of him had risen and stood facing, not Harry but the Slytherins. Then the Hufflepuffs stood, and almost at the same moment, the Ravenclaws, all of them with their backs to Harry, all of them looking toward Pansy instead, and Harry, awestruck and overwhelmed, saw wands emerging everywere, pulled from beneath cloaks and from under sleeves.

They were ready to fight the Slytherins, 3/4 of the entire school was not going to hex/curse one girl. There was about to be a school battle.
Quote:
There was no evacuation point. all Slytherins and underage students went to the Room of Requirement and were to go to Hogsmeade which was already in DE hands.
On the contrary there was an evacuation point.
DH; Pg. 610"...evacuation will be overseen by Mr. Filch and Madam Pomfrey. Prefects, when I give the word, you will organize your House and take your charges, in an orderly fashion, to the evacuation point."
Also where does it say that they went to the Room of Requirement? I didn't think that every person in the school knew of the Room of Requirement.


  #57  
Old August 1st, 2007, 7:50 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Lord_Godric View Post
Also where does it say that they went to the Room of Requirement? I didn't think that every person in the school knew of the Room of Requirement.
Didn't Harry say to Mcgonnagal that the death eaters wouldn't notice people apparating from Hogsmeade?Wouldn't that imply she knew something?


  #58  
Old August 1st, 2007, 8:15 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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Didn't Harry say to Mcgonnagal that the death eaters wouldn't notice people apparating from Hogsmeade?Wouldn't that imply she knew something?
I stand corrected.
DH; Am. Ed. The Sacking of Severus Snape; Pg. 596"With the Floo Network under observation, and Apparation impossible within the grounds -"
"There's a way," said Harry quickly, and he explained about the passageway leading into the Hog's Head.
"Potter, we're talking about hundreds of students -"
"I know, Professor, but if Voldemort and the Death Eaters are concentrating on the school boundaries they wont be interested in anyone who's Disapparating out of the Hog's Head."
"There's something in that," she agreed."
The evacuation point was to be the Hog's Head. The Death Eater's were all outside of Hogwarts, they were not in Hogsmeade anymore. If the rest of the entire school could get out through the Hog's Head, then why couldn't the Slytherins? Instead of going to the evacuation point and leaving, the Slytherins joined Voldemort, while the rest of the school remained safe. Voldemort did not kidnap all of the students who decided not to stay, in fact he mentions that he only had the Slytherins with him. So this point of information only reiterates my original point.



Last edited by Lord Godric; August 1st, 2007 at 8:17 pm.
  #59  
Old August 1st, 2007, 8:15 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Lord_Godric View Post
Also where does it say that they went to the Room of Requirement? I didn't think that every person in the school knew of the Room of Requirement.
Harry suggested to Prof. McGonagal that the students evacuate through the room of requirement, and later Aberforth confirmed that all of the students passed through the hogs head. He even complained that they had not kept back a few Death Eater kids to hold for ransom.


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  #60  
Old August 1st, 2007, 8:39 pm
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Re: Slytherin House : Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Lord_Godric View Post
DH; Pg. 610The Gryffindors in front of him had risen and stood facing, not Harry but the Slytherins. Then the Hufflepuffs stood, and almost at the same moment, the Ravenclaws, all of them with their backs to Harry, all of them looking toward Pansy instead, and Harry, awestruck and overwhelmed, saw wands emerging everywere, pulled from beneath cloaks and from under sleeves.

They were ready to fight the Slytherins, 3/4 of the entire school was not going to hex/curse one girl. There was about to be a school battle. On the contrary there was an evacuation point.
DH; Pg. 610"...evacuation will be overseen by Mr. Filch and Madam Pomfrey. Prefects, when I give the word, you will organize your House and take your charges, in an orderly fashion, to the evacuation point."
Also where does it say that they went to the Room of Requirement? I didn't think that every person in the school knew of the Room of Requirement.
As the previous reader said, they did go through the RoR, there was no plan after that so the Slytherin's never actually ran or something. And on the other point, they looked toward the Slytherin table because Pansy happened to be sitting. And even if the Gryffindors were intending to fight the Slytherins... That still doesn't prove that the rest off the Slytherins were intending to attack Harry. There was no mention of them standing or anything. Rell's point exactly.


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