Goblins: Group Character Analysis

[hermy_weasley2]

Welcome to the post-DH discussion of the goblins. Previous discussion without spoilers can be found here: Goblins:Group Character Analysis


Study Questions

• How would you describe the relationship between wizards and Goblins in general? Will there be a change in the future?
• How can the relationship between certain wizards like Bill Weasley, Albus Dumbledore, Cornelius Fudge, Rufus Scrimgeour, Ludo Bagman and Goblins be described?
• Do you think that the Goblins chose the right way? Is violence is the only way to improve their situation?
• Will there be another Goblin rebellion? Will they use their financial power to gain certain rights?
• Will Goblins have a role in DH? Will they choose Voldemort's side?
• What would the Wizarding society do if the Goblins closed Gringotts?

[wickedwickedboy]

The Goblins were not highly thought of. However, as Bill said, not all Goblins are alike. He had some good friend Goblins, but their traditions and distrust of Wizards likely meant that the relations between the two would take a lot of time to get right.

I think in the new world, under the new Ministry, Goblins and Wizards would begin to integrate more. Hermione would see to it! With more respect shown for their lore and beliefs, they would come to trust Wizards more and I think in the end true friendships would develop. By the time younger generations grew up (Harry's great-grandkids), they would likely become an integral part of society with all of the rest. But then again, I have a really lovely outlook on the future of the wizard world, I know that

[Wright1771]

Yes, things will change with the new order. Hermione will set new laws, to see they have more freedom, but relationships...........that will take time! The Goblins have had centuries of being kept under the thumbs of wizards, and the MoM will need to keep a close eye on the problem. If Grimkook survived, at least he knows how Harry treated a certain House Elf, so maybe he'll realise, there are some wizards who have a soul!

[Chris]

The goblin / wizard relationship was fleshed out quite a bit in DH IMO. Though few wizards seem to understand how goblins work really well, Bill and Harry at least "got it" a bit. I don't think that they are greedy as a lot - after all, they do protect all the treasure instead of swiping it all for themselves - they just have quite different principles from the rest of the wizarding world. I got the impression griphook was kind of cast out from the fellow goblins for whatever reason, but then he was back "on the ins" as a result of bringing back "goblin property".
Their own brand of magic is also powerful in its own right, but for different reasons, IMO. Their armor and skill in making weapons seems to surpass wizarding capabilities. It does make me wonder how powerful a goblin army - especially one armed with wands - could be.

[Fawkesfan1]

How would you describe the relationship between wizards and Goblins in general? Will there be a change in the future?

Not a very good one, they weren't treated with respect by wizards. In fact, they were treated with downright contempt -- as lesser than others.

Hopefully, there will be one -- with the new Ministry and all that. There might be some hope in bringing wizards and goblins together, but they'd have a long way to go, considering how bad the relations were.

[RemusLupinFan]

How would you describe the relationship between wizards and Goblins in general? Will there be a change in the future?
I'd say tenuous at best. The two groups have very different ideas about many things, such as ownership of valuable items (particularly of goblin make). I'd attribute the differences between wizards and goblins to cultural differences mostly

How can the relationship between certain wizards like Bill Weasley, Albus Dumbledore, Cornelius Fudge, Rufus Scrimgeour, Ludo Bagman and Goblins be described?
For Bill and Albus, I'd say they were pretty tolerant, though Bill likely knew more about the goblins due to his work and was likely to know their perspective on things. Cornelius Fudge and Rufus Scrimgeour probably didn't think much of the goblins and favored the wizard side of an argument. Ludo seemed to run up a huge debt with the goblins and thus they probably weren't fond of each other.

Do you think that the Goblins chose the right way? Is violence is the only way to improve their situation?
I think violence is just in their nature. When they have a disagreement, it ultimately turns into conflict. I don't think violence is the only way to resolve their issues - if they'd tried they may have been able to negotiate a peaceful solution, but I don't think it's in their nature.

Will there be another Goblin rebellion? Will they use their financial power to gain certain rights?
Possibly, but hopefully not since the wizarding world appears to be changing for the better, especially where the rights of non-human creatures is concerned. They may use their financial power to gain certain rights, or those rights may be given to them by the new Ministry.

What would the Wizarding society do if the Goblins closed Gringotts?
They'd just have to set up another banking system I guess. It wouldn't be as good as Gringotts, but I'm sure they'd manage eventually if such a situation occurred. It seems unlikely now though.

[Tenshi]

I wouldn't say that Goblins are not highly thought of. For being non human creatures are they quite a lot integrated in the Wizard community. They are allow to have their own business, which is a quite important as well, and to interact with wizards. Other creatures are in a far more worse situation.
I see no sense in starting rebellions, what do they want to achieve with it anyway?

[MrSleepyHead]

From the Weekly Spotlight Thread:

Originally Posted by zgirnius

About the trivial causes of the Goblin rebellions...I would guess thay are not, strictly, the "true" causes, but rather, what set off the actual violence.

I agree. The W.O.M.B.A.T. question asks which of the events provoked the bloody goblin rebellions - not the underlying causes. However, as I see it, goblin/wizard relations are always tense and on the edge. If all it takes for a goblin rebellion to be provoked it the imprisonment of a goblin for trying to murder three wizards (the least likely provocation, I believe), or the imprisonment of a goblin peddling leprechaun gold (again, we do not know what the wizards' "pursuit" involved), I think it plausible that goblins are more inclined to violence than diplomacy.

However, that is, in my opinion, goblins' nature - the reason for their love of violence is because wizards' refusal of granting goblins equality and certain rights. I think wizards have forced goblins into employing violence because of their constant oppression of goblins.

Originally Posted by Kat_Suki

6) Which are their most admirable traits? What are their worst?

Worst: ...unwillingness to share their knowledge

I do not think goblins have an "unwillingness to share their knowledge." They have been more willing than wizards have been with them, for one. Goblins will not share knowledge about how to make goblin-made objects, in my opinion, because wizards have yet to honor the goblins' relinquishment of their own artifacts with goblins' right to possess wands. Considering wizards have repressed goblins for centuries, I would not label goblins as unwilling to share their knowledge, since wizards have already abused goblins' "willingness."

[hpfan795]

I used to respect the Goblin Race, but since what Griphook fdid to Harry, Ron and Hermione, I think they are sneaky.

[Tenshi]

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

I do not think goblins have an "unwillingness to share their knowledge." They have been more willing than wizards have been with them, for one. Goblins will not share knowledge about how to make goblin-made objects, in my opinion, because wizards have yet to honor the goblins' relinquishment of their own artifacts with goblins' right to possess wands. Considering wizards have repressed goblins for centuries, I would not label goblins as unwilling to share their knowledge, since wizards have already abused goblins' "willingness."

I don't know what the one has to do with the other one. It seems kinda childish to me when ones says you are not allow to have this, because you don't give me exactly this thing in return. It's not like Wizard are dependened on Goblin objects, so to refuse them wands is most logical.

Knowledge means power and like I see it is that Goblins don't want to loose or weaken their power by sharing it.

Goblins are already powerful enough and giving them wands will probably put the wizards in a dangerous position.

On the other hand I guess that Goblins see their magic and craft skills as so outstanding and special that they don't want to share it with the Wizards.

[HeadLikeAHole]

[*]How would you describe the relationship between wizards and Goblins in general? Will there be a change in the future?
I think the relationship is somewhat tenuous for reasons we learnt in DH - goblins' view of ownership is drastically different to that of wizards and this has probably been a major cause of past goblin rebellions. However, I think there is at least grudging respect on both sides, particularly from goblins to wizards.

[*]How can the relationship between certain wizards like Bill Weasley, Albus Dumbledore, Cornelius Fudge, Rufus Scrimgeour, Ludo Bagman and Goblins be described?
Bill definitely respected the goblins because he had worked with them and took the time to understand them. I imagine Dumbledore had also studied goblins and sought to understand their point of view. In return, I believe that the goblins were, if not friendly, at least cordial with both of them.
Fudge and Scrimgeour, on the other hand, I imagine did not take the time or effort to fully understand goblins, their attitudes and ways of life and as such never really took their concerns seriously as long as they were "under control." Again, I imagine the goblins felt dislike and a certain grudging respect for them.
As for Ludo, I doubt he gave a toss about goblins until he had to borrow money from them. Once he was unable to pay them back, I'd guess he feared them (why else would he run?) and in return, the goblins want his deadbeat arse on a platter.

[*]Do you think that the Goblins chose the right way? Is violence is the only way to improve their situation?
No, violence is certainly not the right way. If the goblins took the time to educate more wizards about themselves, they would have an easier route to whatever it is they seek (Self-determination? Gold?) as we have seen from those who have taken the time to educate themselves. Of course, this can lead to a Catch-22 situation where the wizards refuse to learn about goblins - but as long as there is a progressive voice in Hogwarts, there is potential for this to happen.

[*]Will there be another Goblin rebellion? Will they use their financial power to gain certain rights?
I imagine Hermione and the new Ministry will do what they can to appease the goblins to prevent another rebellion.

[*]Will Goblins have a role in DH? Will they choose Voldemort's side?
We all know the answer here - they did have a role (specifically Griphook). While they didn't officially take sides, I believe Griphook (and probably others) realised that the only way that his fellow goblins could have a hope at achieving their goals would be for Voldemort to be defeated.

[*]What would the Wizarding society do if the Goblins closed Gringotts?
I imagine the Ministry has a backup plan if this ever occurred.

[AccioDobby]

How would you describe the relationship between wizards and Goblins in general? Will there be a change in the future?

I think they both deeply mistrust the other group and that is how it was for many years. In the future I think the Goblins will get more power, not as much as they want, but more than they had pre Voldemort World War Two. I think the relationship will improve a bit, but not much really. So basically, not much difference.

How can the relationship between certain wizards like Bill Weasley, Albus Dumbledore, Cornelius Fudge, Rufus Scrimgeour, Ludo Bagman and Goblins be described?

For all of them? In one word? Precarious.

Do you think that the Goblins chose the right way? Is violence is the only way to improve their situation?

I think it is unwise to judge all Goblins by Griphook, maybe some aren't all disliking Wizards. Never judge a Bank by one Banker.

Will there be another Goblin rebellion? Will they use their financial power to gain certain rights?

I think after Hermione has won rights for all the House-Elfs, things will calm down a bit, with all non-human species getting a fairer deal.

Will Goblins have a role in DH? Will they choose Voldemort's side?

Seeing as DH has already come out, I know the answer, but I would have thought that some Goblins would be pro-Voldy, some anti-Voldy. Bill (or Charlie) did mention that Voldemort had killed Goblins too.

What would the Wizarding society do if the Goblins closed Gringotts?

Maybe that's what caused the Credit Crunch in the first place ...

[always_33_687]

How would you describe the relationship between wizards and Goblins in general? Will there be a change in the future?
As others have already mentioned, theirs is not exactly a friendly relationship. I would characterize it as a lack of respect on the part of both groups, especially in regards to cultural differences. I think that in the future it would be possible for the two parties to hold a degree of civility, but as for reaching that level of respect for each other, I'm not sure that it would happen. Of course there would likely be more tolerant individuals or groups of individuals within each faction, but I think on the whole the feud runs too deep in history to be able to be completely resolved.

How can the relationship between certain wizards like Bill Weasley, Albus Dumbledore, Cornelius Fudge, Rufus Scrimgeour, Ludo Bagman and Goblins be described?
As for Bill, I think it is likely that he is one of the wizards that is most understanding and accepting of goblin culture and belief. This is not to say that he agrees with it himself, but that he simply can see their point of view. He strikes me as a tolerant sort of person (There might in fact be some that suggests the contrary, any of which I would love to know about, but I just always pictured him that way). An example might be his taking Ron in after he leaves Harry and Hermione in the Deathly Hallows. The other Weasleys might have given Ron a hard time, but even though Bill "wasn't impressed when he heard what [Ron] had done... he didn't go on about it" (page 397). I think the relationship between Bill and the goblins he works with is the closest to mutual respect wizards and goblins will ever be able to achieve. But of course, this is a specific case, not a wide-spread phenomenon.

A younger Dumbledore (during what I will refer to as the "Grindelwald period") would likely have not had much regard for goblins at all and would hold prejudices against them, but i feel that after his duel with Grindelwald, he became a man that was more understanding of many other types of beings, including goblins. While I do not think he was completely fond of them, I could see him making a definite effort to understand their beliefs, if for no other reason than for purely academic purposes or sheer curiosity.

As many others have, I will group Fudge and Scrimgeour together. I think that as public officials, they likely understood that the wizarding community relied upon goblins to care for their money, and I believe that any respect they would have had for them was purely do to this understanding. it was not really a tolerant form of respect that one might see between Bill and the goblins, but one that branches from the balance of powers that be.

As for Bagman, I think his relations to the goblins have been mostly covered in previous posts.

Do you think that the Goblins chose the right way? Is violence is the only way to improve their situation?
In my opinion, violence sprang from simply being "sick and tired." Surely the goblins understood the powers they were up against when taking on wizards (who possess wands to focus their magic) and would not have entered into such a conflict lightly. I think it was most likely an attempt to convey that they "mean business" so to speak. As for actually accomplishing something, violence will not solve their problems. It will only deepen the rift between the two cultures and cause their problems to worsen.

Will there be another Goblin rebellion? Will they use their financial power to gain certain rights?
I think that the post-Deathly Hallows Ministry will likely try harder to maintain a working relationship with the goblins, thus making another rebellion less likely. It does not entirely rule out the possibility, however.

Will Goblins have a role in DH? Will they choose Voldemort's side?
As we saw in the Deathly Hallows, the goblins did not necessarily take his side, nor did they openly oppose him. I think logically it would be best for the goblins to want Voldemort to fail since his entire agenda seems to center around wizard and pureblood supremacy (evidenced by his "magic is might" credo); however, it would not have been wise of them to openly defy him. Therefore it makes sense that they did not really appear to select a side.

What would the Wizarding society do if the Goblins closed Gringotts?
The goblins really hold a significant amount of power in this regard. If the goblins were to choose to simply close Gringotts, cutting off wizards from their funds, just think how that would effect the wizarding community. I imagine if such a thing happened, the Ministry would attempt to step in, but that would be a feat not so easily navigated I'm afraid. The goblins would likely demand the ability to carry wands, something that the Ministry would not be so willing to grant.

[wolfbrother]

How would you describe the relationship between wizards and Goblins in general? Will there be a change in the future?

I'd say it was strained. Both parties were unwilling to compromise. I'm not sure there'll be a change in the future but you never know.

How can the relationship between certain wizards like Bill Weasley, Albus Dumbledore, Cornelius Fudge, Rufus Scrimgeour, Ludo Bagman and Goblins be described?

I think the goblins probably had some level of respect for Bill and Dumbledore. As for Fudge and Scrimgeour, that would depend entirely on how they dealt with them. I don't think they had much respect for them though.

Do you think that the Goblins chose the right way? Is violence is the only way to improve their situation?

Sometimes violence will help you get noticed. Having said that, I don't see how violence will help them now.

Will there be another Goblin rebellion? Will they use their financial power to gain certain rights?

I guess its possible. If they could use their financial power to arm twist the Ministry, I'm sure they would have tried already.

Will Goblins have a role in DH? Will they choose Voldemort's side?

I think the goblins picked sides just like the wizards did. I can't imagine too many goblins sided with Voldemort though.

What would the Wizarding society do if the Goblins closed Gringotts?

I'm sure they would have had an alternate plan.

To be honest, I think the wizards have the right side of the argument in this one. The goblins want the ability to carry wands while keeping their own knowledge secret.