Hermione Granger: Character Analysis

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

It might have been arranged that way if Hermione were the only third year taking all offered subjects; inconvenience one person rather than inconvenience the whole grade level to make that one person's life easier.

The third year class would be a prerequisite for the fourth year class, I presume. (Divination is one of the new third year classes, for example. Those who liked it, such as Parvati, are still taking it in 5th year...) So Hermione could not have waited for fourth year to take some subject of interest to her.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by darklordspal

I don't quite understand the British educational system, but...

Neither do I, I'm American.

if Hermione wished to take advanced courses tutoring would be a far more reasonable course of action than giving her access to the ability to change the course of history if she wanted.

Yes, tutoring would have been the "better" solution but...

... if Hermione were never given the time turner Buckbeak would have been killed, Sirius's innocence probably never known to Harry, Harry wouldn't have been able to save Sirius from the dementors, Peter's betrayal would have never been known... in other words, the entire ending of POA would have had to be rewritten and the entire rest of the series rewritten too.

[Moriath]

I also think that we ought to make allowances for what is and isn't acceptable in the Wizarding World compared to ours. I mean, who would let their child play a game like Quidditch where people literally disappear into thin air and chase each other with intelligent balls intent to maim or kill? Hermione is a witch and a brilliant one at that. I don't think it's unusually risky to give her the time turner considering what else goes in the Wizarding World.

[MasterOfDeath]

Originally Posted by Moriath

I also think that we ought to make allowances for what is and isn't acceptable in the Wizarding World compared to ours. I mean, who would let their child play a game like Quidditch where people literally disappear into thin air and chase each other with intelligent balls intent to maim or kill? Hermione is a witch and a brilliant one at that. I don't think it's unusually risky to give her the time turner considering what else goes in the Wizarding World.

Remember, broken bones can be mended in a heartbeat in this world.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

Remember, broken bones can be mended in a heartbeat in this world.

Yes; but dementors make you lose consciousness & fall off your broom, and if someone isn't quick enough (and skilled enough) to stop your fall, you're dead.

The point about Hermione and the time turner is that Hermione is extraordinarily attached to rules, and McGonagall knows this; further, all the teachers know as well, and Hermione can be monitored to make sure she isn't abusing the time turner.

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

Remember, broken bones can be mended in a heartbeat in this world.

I would argue that this doesn't make it any less painful or fatal, in case of a bad fall or hit.

Time turners are magical devices; their use is regulated. Nevertheless, they are used. As I see it, Hermione was a very rule-abiding witch and McGonagall didn't have second thoughts about letting her use a time turner. I don't think it was unprecedented and I don't think that using a time turner would have alarmed wizards and witches to the same extent as it may alarm us.

[ajna]

Originally Posted by Yoana

Not at all - Harry was taking an easier route, Hermione was just working harder. It's actually the opposite of what she did, as I see it.

I've always thought that if Hermione found that book on her own, she would try some of the things in it.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by ajna

I've always thought that if Hermione found that book on her own, she would try some of the things in it.

Or she might turn it in to Slughorn without even reading the margin notes and ask for a copy that wasn't all marked up!!

[ajna]

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

Or she might turn it in to Slughorn without even reading the margin notes and ask for a copy that wasn't all marked up!!

In theory, but for Hermione, I think knowledge, or potential knowledge would trump her need for order in her universe.

[Yoana]

Originally Posted by ajna

In theory, but for Hermione, I think knowledge, or potential knowledge would trump her need for order in her universe.

Then why didn't she use it when Harry offered?

[cardinalguy]

Originally Posted by Yoana

Then why didn't she use it when Harry offered?

IMO, because it was hand-written. She would have no way of knowing whether the extra notes actually worked, and would not have dared try them out during class (her fear of failure not allowing her to take such a risk). Had curiosity driven her to experiment, she would have done so later (and may have talked to Slughorn about it as well).

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by cardinalguy

IMO, because it was hand-written. She would have no way of knowing whether the extra notes actually worked, and would not have dared try them out during class (her fear of failure not allowing her to take such a risk). Had curiosity driven her to experiment, she would have done so later (and may have talked to Slughorn about it as well).

Exactly, the notes weren't Ministry approved.

[darklordspal]

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

Exactly, the notes weren't Ministry approved.

My opinion is that she was mad at Harry for using the book and a little jealous of the attention Harry was getting from Slughorn. She didn't use the book because then she would be legitimizing something she already had told Harry was wrong.....and it wasn't Ministry approved.

If she accepted help from the book after telling Ron and Harry how wrong it was to use it then she would have had to admit she was wrong. That's a little tough for Hermione to do.

Maybe someone can remember if Hermione gave Harry a "I told you so" after he used the Sempra curse on Draco, but I'm not sure. Didn't Harry stop using the book after that?

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by ajna

I've always thought that if Hermione found that book on her own, she would try some of the things in it.

Originally Posted by darklordspal

She didn't use the book because then she would be legitimizing something she already had told Harry was wrong.....and it wasn't Ministry approved.

This is what I thought, too. If Hermione had found the book on her own she would, to me, have used it in order to get herself ahead in class (her self esteem is very tied to her academic abilities, after all) but since Harry was gaining so much praise for using it she was jealous and didn't want to use it on principle, so that she could prove that the approved and official way was the morally just and right way.

If she accepted help from the book after telling Ron and Harry how wrong it was to use it then she would have had to admit she was wrong. That's a little tough for Hermione to do.

It's not just tough, it's impossible. Does she ever admit in the books that she was wrong? I don't even think she truly admits that she was wrong about the existence of the hallows, she side steps that issue and begins attacking the validity of them from a different angle so she doesn't ever sound wrong.

Didn't Harry stop using the book after that?

After Harry uses Sectum Sempra on Draco he goes and hides his copy of Advanced Potion Making in the RoR and gives Ron's copy of the book to Snape when asked to produce it. He never goes back to get it - until he goes after the diadem, anyway.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

It's not just tough, it's impossible. Does she ever admit in the books that she was wrong? I don't even think she truly admits that she was wrong about the existence of the hallows, she side steps that issue and begins attacking the validity of them from a different angle so she doesn't ever sound wrong.

I don't think that's true.

DH, chapter 24, page 496 "Yes, he asked," whispered Ollivander. "He wanted to know everything I could tell him about the wand variously known as the Deathstick, the Wand of Destiny or the Elder Wand." Harry looked sideways at Hermione. She looked flabbergasted.

Her expression pretty much admits she was wrong, and that she had really believed the Elder Wand was just a legend. Ollivander goes on to explain stories that seem to mention the Elder Wand over the years, and that they seem to be authentic. Hermione does ask Ollivander "So you don't think there's any chance it might be legend or myth?" ... Ollivander says no, and continues to relay what other stories he's heard about the wand. And Hermione doesn't counter his answer in the least.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I don't think that's true.

Her expression pretty much admits she was wrong.

Looking flabergasted and saying the words "I'm wrong" are two different things though. Hermione never admits to being wrong, she just changes her line of attack and tries and discredit the hallows and dances around the fact that she was wrong.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

Looking flabergasted and saying the words "I'm wrong" are two different things though. Hermione never admits to being wrong, she just changes her line of attack and tries and discredit the hallows and dances around the fact that she was wrong.

It's a judgement call on interpretation as to what constitutes admitting to being wrong, and I happen to have a different view.

In the second part of my post you did not copy in your reply, I noted that in the same encounter with Ollivander, Hermione asks if he's sure that the story is not myth or legend. When Ollivander says "No", Hermione accepts it and does not, as you suggest "just change her line of attack and try to discredit the hallows". She accepts that Ollivander is right.

Not every character (or person in real life, for that matter) will signal admittance or feelings the same way. As a different example, in GOF, when Harry & Ron make peace, they do so without really expressing any of their feelings whatsoever, but the tone of the conversation does that for them. My point is, they didn't have to actually say they were sorry & missed each other, but the point was made nonetheless. Just because Hermione doesn't say "I was wrong" does not mean she doesn't indicate it, either by acceptance or withdrawal of any further argument or comment. It's the same as the boys' -- they never actually say anything, yet the communication is somehow there.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by darklordspal

My opinion is that she was mad at Harry for using the book and a little jealous of the attention Harry was getting from Slughorn. She didn't use the book because then she would be legitimizing something she already had told Harry was wrong.....and it wasn't Ministry approved.

If she accepted help from the book after telling Ron and Harry how wrong it was to use it then she would have had to admit she was wrong. That's a little tough for Hermione to do.

I can't see Hermione using the HBP potions book regardless. Hermione was very narrow minded and rigid - deviating from proven and approved techniques in the textbook is something she would never do unless it was the teacher who implemented such deviations, IMO. Had Hermione found that book - or been given it - it seems most likely that she would have turned it in to Slughorn because it had obviously been marked up by a student and it was difficult - if not impossible - to read the approved directions. A previous student marking up the book would not - in Hermione's view - present a guaranteed opportunity to improve her grade because she would have no way to know if the student was good at potions or bad.

When Hermione found out that those spells and potions notes had been made by Snape - someone she knew to be an expert on the subject and a teacher - she changed her mind about using spells from the book. Harry noted that in DH.

But you are right. The only time Hermione was willing to admit she was wrong about anything was when she got confirmation from an official book or an authority figure. And even then, being wrong upset her. I think that ties in with her rather extreme fear of failure.

Maybe someone can remember if Hermione gave Harry a "I told you so" after he used the Sempra curse on Draco, but I'm not sure. Didn't Harry stop using the book after that?

She did - and Ginny told her off for it.

Harry hid the book in the Room of Requirement so Snape wouldn't be able to prove he had been using it to cheat in potions. He never went back for it because he was worried that Snape might catch him. As a result, his grades in potions dropped because he couldn't do that on his own.

[StarsAndShadows]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

But you are right. The only time Hermione was willing to admit she was wrong about anything was when she got confirmation from an official book or an authority figure.

That's one of the things I wonder about concerning Hermione. How much weight she put on authority and on the printed word.

And even then, being wrong upset her. I think that ties in with her rather extreme fear of failure.

I also wonder about that. Hermione is - or was, as a child - an odd mixture of unconscious arrogance (the "unsufferable know-it-all"), bossiness (she knows better than people what's good for them) and insecurity. Her driving need to excel, and her extreme fear of failure, being wrong being a form of failure, because it proves that she doesn't know it all, after all, and she doesn't like the idea, and the feeling, at all.

I think that as she matured, she got better in that respect.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Harry hid the book in the Room of Requirement so Snape wouldn't be able to prove he had been using it to cheat in potions. He never went back for it because he was worried that Snape might catch him. As a result, his grades in potions dropped because he couldn't do that on his own.

I think the real reason Harry hid the book is because he had just used Snape's spell on Draco (although he didn't know at that point it was Snape), and he knew Snape would confiscate the book. I think he intended to go back for it eventually, but of course that got sidetracked because Dumbledore's death, the war & horcrux hunt. Harry marked the spot to make it conspicuous - the chipped bust of an old warlock, put a wig on it and an old tarnished tiara. Later, in arguing with Hermione:

HBP, chapter 24, page 530 U.S. hardcover:

"Are you telling me," said Hermione, "that you're going back ---?"

"And get the book? Yeah, I am," Harry said forcefully.

No mention about worrying Snape would catch him with it again. He already gave Harry detentions every Saturday for the rest of the year. Was Hermione jealous that Harry was getting excellent marks with the notes? Absolutely. And she could have shared the notes, but she couldn't get past following official instruction. A shortcoming that she eventually overcame in DH, partly out of necessity and partly because she was focusing on doing what was right to help defeat Voldemort.