Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis

[crowheart]

Perhaps Narcissa Malfoy, especially if she set her cap at Snape first! I swear there were some vibes between those two. Of course, not like we'd really see her POV, though.

[Ifink2much]

Originally Posted by crowheart

Well, she did date him while he was still picking on Snape. She just didn't know. We're told that James was still hexing Snape while they were dating, he just kept it quieter.

It's the fact that Lily didn't know much about it that bothers me.Because if she did her reaction might have been different.

I liked Lily is the last book.They showed more of her true character in this book,like her understanding of people.

[crowheart]

Yes, and I think that highlights her fatal flaw: she believed what she was told, and didn't question it. She believed what James Potter told her about the incident with Snape and the werewolf, and she believed what he told her about not hexing Snape. She took things at face value, because I firmly believe that Lily Evans was so incapable of a lie that she could not conceive of anyone lying to her .

[Ifink2much]

Thats true.Unkind unjust behaviour seems beyond her understanding.I like how when she's little she justifies everyting as'that's not nice'.I knowthen shes a child then but it does to an extent show how she sees things.
But then if she was plainly lied too then I feel sorry for her,she didn't deserve that.

[Chris]

I would think that Lily would have gotten a better idea of how much James had hexed Snape and vice versa at some point during their dating phase. And she would also have ensured that James didn't hex Snape nearly as much after they started dating - even if Lily and Snape didn't talk so much any more, she still would put her foot down.
@ a post up above somewhere...of all the characters in the series, Lily does seem to be the least flawed. Petunia's the only one with something bad to say about here.

[sweets7]

Originally Posted by crowheart

Yes, and I think that highlights her fatal flaw: she believed what she was told, and didn't question it. She believed what James Potter told her about the incident with Snape and the werewolf, and she believed what he told her about not hexing Snape. She took things at face value, because I firmly believe that Lily Evans was so incapable of a lie that she could not conceive of anyone lying to her .

What James told Lily about Snape and the werewolf was true. The fault was completely Sirius', who acted almost inhumanly towards Snape, because if he hadn’t been saved, Snape would have been killed. Snape was far to interested in their business anyway, as Lily pointed out, what the Marauders got up to was none of his business.

I really don't see how the Snape/James issue was in anyway a slight on Lily or indicated that James was dishonest with her. James and Snape disliked each other, intensely, it had absolutely nothing to do with Lily, and neither was required to tell her that they were covertly riling each other. Lily fell in love with James, when he finally grew up; who he hated was not a condition of this.

James was an absolute idiot and bully as a teenager, but he grew out of it, we are told this time and again. That James and Snape remained enemies for life, does not contradict this. We are left in doubt though that those who knew them considered Lily to be superior on a humanistic front. In the end, Lupin, who knew both James and lily, considered James to be the more trusting of the two, and that Harry to have inherited this failing. Lily’s failure in trust came when she trusted her husband that the choice of Wormtail for secret keeper was the best option. However if you can’t trust your spouse or your family, you really can’t trust any human being.

[crowheart]

Sirius, who admittedly is a biased source as well, tells us that Lily did not know about James hexing Snape while they were dating. As he was saying something which was a slight negative reflection on a man he loved, I think we can assume he was telling the truth, as he would have no reason to tear James' memory down to protect Lily's. Thus, I think we can assume that Lily did not, in fact, know, and remained ignorant-though I certainly think we can give Lily the credit for getting James to stop hexing other people besides Snape!

[missbrunettgirl]

Sirius, who admittedly is a biased source as well, tells us that Lily did not know about James hexing Snape while they were dating. As he was saying something which was a slight negative reflection on a man he loved, I think we can assume he was telling the truth, as he would have no reason to tear James' memory down to protect Lily's. Thus, I think we can assume that Lily did not, in fact, know, and remained ignorant-though I certainly think we can give Lily the credit for getting James to stop hexing other people besides Snape!

"Well," Said Lupin slowly, "Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?"

"And my mum was okay with that?"

[crowheart]

Yes, but Lupin was one of the Marauders, and thus subject to the same biases as Sirius was, though of course to a lesser extent. I do not take this as a necessarily true or trustworthy statement, especially as Lupin fails to mention during this entire speech something which would have been common knowledge at Hogwarts: that Lily and Severus were friends.

[sweets7]

Originally Posted by crowheart

Thus, I think we can assume that Lily did not, in fact, know, and remained ignorant-though I certainly think we can give Lily the credit for getting James to stop hexing other people besides Snape!

She shouldn't have had to stop him hexing others. When James and Lily finally got together they were practically legal, in the wizarding world. We are told that James grew up, calmed down and stopped being an arrogant little bully. When this happened Lily decided she liked the person he had become. We don't see James, so we have no indication that it was otherwise, and this is what we are told happened.

Sirius openly admits to his childhood mistakes and said he wasn’t proud of it, I doubt he and Lupin would have lied to Harry.

I do think though that they deliberatly kept quiet about Snape and Lily’s friendship, which meant that they really couldn’t tell Harry why exactly Snape and James continued to hate each other. They didn't tell harry because, well, his mother was dead and he was still a child, given to hot tempered behaviour, he didn't need to hear something that would have been so completely confusing for him, and they had probably been told by Dumbledore to keep quiet. Of course for plot purposes it couldn't be revealed till DH. Lupin never indicates that Snape disliked Lily, he never says anything, neither does Dumbledore.

[Ifink2much]

To me a big problem is who started it all,which we may never find out.
But if James sole reason for hexing Snape was Lily then the fact he might have stopped being the instigator in 7th yr, when the and Lily got together doesn't say much.If he hadn't got with her would he have gone on hexing him?

[missbrunettgirl]

Sirius, who admittedly is a biased source as well, tells us that Lily did not know about James hexing Snape while they were dating. As he was saying something which was a slight negative reflection on a man he loved, I think we can assume he was telling the truth, as he would have no reason to tear James' memory down to protect Lily's. Thus, I think we can assume that Lily did not, in fact, know, and remained ignorant-though I certainly think we can give Lily the credit for getting James to stop hexing other people besides Snape!

"Well," Said Lupin slowly, "Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?"

"And my mum was okay with that?"

She didn't know too much about it, to tell you the truth," Said Sirius "I mean James didn't take Snape on dates with her and jinx him in front of her, did he?" "OOtp"

This says to me that she might have had an idea of what James was up to but, not enough to confront him about it. Also, I think she knew if Snape and Jamaes were hexing Snape wasn't innocent in the situation.

[Chris]

It's only tangental to this thread - this is a Lily thread, after all - but Lupin's words in OoTP and HBP I take as very close to the truth. He seems a neutral source regarding his information to Harry about his father and Snape and Lily.

Great Ginny / Harry drawing

I wonder when Lily got the Doe patronus...I would expect that she had it from the start - and I wonder when she first cast said patronus. I don't know of any canon for knowing these questions, too...

[crowheart]

Originally Posted by sweets7

She shouldn't have had to stop him hexing others. When James and Lily finally got together they were practically legal, in the wizarding world. We are told that James grew up, calmed down and stopped being an arrogant little bully. When this happened Lily decided she liked the person he had become. We don't see James, so we have no indication that it was otherwise, and this is what we are told happened.

We are told only by James's friends, who have every reason to lie. We are not told by impartial narration, and I think we can judge from what we see of his character. Would we have accepted this behavior from Harry, or Ron, or Hermione? No. We would have been appalled.

I think we cannot take the opinions of James's friends on why Lily felt various ways. We would have to talk to Lily's friends, and the only close one she seems to have had was Snape.

[sweets7]

Originally Posted by crowheart

We are told only by James's friends, who have every reason to lie. We are not told by impartial narration, and I think we can judge from what we see of his character. Would we have accepted this behavior from Harry, or Ron, or Hermione? No. We would have been appalled.

I think we cannot take the opinions of James's friends on why Lily felt various ways. We would have to talk to Lily's friends, and the only close one she seems to have had was Snape.

We have to accept what Lupin and Sirius say: they tell Harry that they all were in some way to blame for the animosity with Snape, including Snape in the end. They blame themselves, James and Snape; the only one they leave out is Wormtail.


We are never going to know anything else, and we only ever saw James when he was behaving like an arrogant bully. Lupin and Sirius tell us all we really need to know, it is a children's book, why on earth would they dissemble?

All that really is important about their relationship is that they loved eachother and that that love created a very different child, from the child created through the disception and dishonesty in Merope and Tom's relationship. How and why they fell in love is not really important, and we were given the bare bones of that from the people who knew them.

When asked about it JKR hinted that Lily never hated James but that he was too much of a bully for her when he was younger. She was probably always attracted to him.

[crowheart]

Honestly, I just don't think we 'have' to accept what Sirius and Lupin say, nor that they tell us all we need to know just because it's a children's book. Honestly, I don't even really view these books as children's books anymore. What children's books would reference excruciating torture and murder of people so frequently and often, or reference what happened to Dumbledore's sister at an incredibly young age?

[sweets7]

Originally Posted by crowheart

Honestly, I just don't think we 'have' to accept what Sirius and Lupin say, nor that they tell us all we need to know just because it's a children's book. Honestly, I don't even really view these books as children's books anymore. What children's books would reference excruciating torture and murder of people so frequently and often, or reference what happened to Dumbledore's sister at an incredibly young age?

We don't have to accept anything but we will never get anymore information then what we have now.

They are books read by a large age range, and the younger readers just don't get the darker undertones that are hinted at in DH. DH is a very dark and morally ambiguous book and I wouldn't be comfortable giving it to children; however lots of the books are perfectly suitable for children; including the ones that talk about James and his friends.

Do you think that all Snape said about James was correct?

[crowheart]

Originally Posted by sweets7

Do you think that all Snape said about James was correct?

No, I certainly don't, nor do I think that if he had spoken of Lily, all that he said would have been correct. I exempt no one from having biases. I certainly think that Snape had a strong bias against James, but I think despite it, we can glean some true bits, especially from when Snape is angry and shouting. I think we can glean from Harry's actions, and what Snape seems to get angry at him about, more of James than we can from Snape's spoken words alone.

I think that Snape loved Lily too much to think anything bad of her, and so her turning away from him and towards James probably turned into all James' fault, that he somehow forced or tricked her.

[sweets7]

Originally Posted by crowheart

I think that Snape loved Lily too much to think anything bad of her, and so her turning away from him and towards James probably turned into all James' fault, that he somehow forced or tricked her.

That James forced or tricked her?

[crowheart]

This is all my hypothesis of what Snape would have thought, so it maybe really doesn't belong on the Lily thread, but I'll be happy to take it to the Snape thread if you want!