Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis

[Yoana]

Originally Posted by kaeluhe

1. What are Lily Evans's flaws (both as a student at Hogwarts and as a married adult)?
2. Why do you feel that Jo did not portray her with flaws? If you feel that she did, why do you think she made them subtle flaws instead of say, Sirius's obvious recklessness that ultimately resulted in his death?
3. Is there a correlation between a lot of people liking Lily (being popular) and a lot of people liking Ginny (also being popular) in that neither seem to have any major flaws?

That's very inetresting, because I have never been able to buy Ginny's coolness or perfection or whatever, and I do find her very forced and having no real flaws, but, funnily enough, I just loved Lily in DH. I think she's a wonderfully created character, despite the fact that we see no negative sides to her. Perhaps she;s just a wonderful person overall, and, to be fair, there wasn't much time to develop every detail of her character, was there? She was in the books only for as long as was needed to get across the message of her importance - I mean, she didn't get the seven-books' worth of development the main characters got.

[wimblemimble]

I think that, re-reading the books, Lily does have flaws. But because we don't see a lot of her we don't get to see them that much.

However, re-reading SWM after we realize that she and Snape were friends does make me disapointed in her. She spent most of her time simply yelling at people, rather than actually making a real move to help. Could she not have un-jynxed him herself?

In fact, she was making it a bit worse for Snape, which is why I didn't feel that Lily was justified in being mad at Snape for calling her a Mudblood. The kids under a lot of pressure, and she's simply name-calling with James. (Personally, I think she liked him at that stage of time, but didn't want to admit to it.) I don't think he was right to say that to her, but at the same time I don't think LIly was right to hold a grudge over it.

[Sly_Lady]

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

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However, re-reading SWM after we realize that she and Snape were friends does make me disapointed in her. She spent most of her time simply yelling at people, rather than actually making a real move to help. Could she not have un-jynxed him herself?

In fact, she was making it a bit worse for Snape, which is why I didn't feel that Lily was justified in being mad at Snape for calling her a Mudblood. The kids under a lot of pressure, and she's simply name-calling with James. (Personally, I think she liked him at that stage of time, but didn't want to admit to it.) I don't think he was right to say that to her, but at the same time I don't think Lily was right to hold a grudge over it.

I was quite shocked at her behavior during and after SWM. Yes, Severus did call her the 'M' word. But he was suspended upside down, being choked by soapsuds, and Lily seemed to be giving almost all of her attention to James. This was her best friend, her childhood friend, and she's got a little flirtation going with the bully who's tormenting him? Then, knowing his circumstances at home and that he's badly dressed in old, crummy clothes, she makes that crack about his underpants, calls him Snivellus, and walks away. Yuck. If she was going to intervene, why didn't she do enough to be effective?

Then, afterward, Lily's back in the common room and is forced to go out and speak to her childhood friend who's desperate to apologize to him. So much so that he's prepared to sleep on the floor outside the portrait hole so he can speak to her. Imagine what fun James and Sirius would have, finding a sleeping Severus Snape there, a gift for them to torment more. But Severus doesn't care. And Lily refuses his apology. She seems to have no regrets for the nasty cracks she made during SWM either, or the little smile. I thought that was harsh.

This is all teenage stuff, and there are faults on all sides, of course. But I'm a bit irritated with myself for having bought in too much to the idea of Saint Lily, and in DH I find an ordinary teenage girl. Pretty, charming, not too loyal to her unpopular old best friend and all ready to engage in flirtatious banter with the popular bully.

The sad thing is that my main reason for believing that James had grown into a better person was that the Lily Evans I thought I knew wouldn't have married a charming bully. But the Lily I saw in DH makes me question all of that.

[GiavonnixSavant]

Originally Posted by Sly_Lady

I was quite shocked at her behavior during and after SWM. Yes, Severus did call her the 'M' word. But he was suspended upside down, being choked by soapsuds, and Lily seemed to be giving almost all of her attention to James. This was her best friend, her childhood friend, and she's got a little flirtation going with the bully who's tormenting him? Then, knowing his circumstances at home and that he's badly dressed in old, crummy clothes, she makes that crack about his underpants, calls him Snivellus, and walks away. Yuck. If she was going to intervene, why didn't she do enough to be effective?

Then, afterward, Lily's back in the common room and is forced to go out and speak to her childhood friend who's desperate to apologize to him. So much so that he's prepared to sleep on the floor outside the portrait hole so he can speak to her. Imagine what fun James and Sirius would have, finding a sleeping Severus Snape there, a gift for them to torment more. But Severus doesn't care. And Lily refuses his apology. She seems to have no regrets for the nasty cracks she made during SWM either, or the little smile. I thought that was harsh.

This is all teenage stuff, and there are faults on all sides, of course. But I'm a bit irritated with myself for having bought in too much to the idea of Saint Lily, and in DH I find an ordinary teenage girl. Pretty, charming, not too loyal to her unpopular old best friend and all ready to engage in flirtatious banter with the popular bully.

The sad thing is that my main reason for believing that James had grown into a better person was that the Lily Evans I thought I knew wouldn't have married a charming bully. But the Lily I saw in DH makes me question all of that.

Agreed. What confuses me, though, is that he just called her one mean word. Just one for the first time, as far as we know. And a lot of times people get angry and say one mean word, but then they make up.
And JKR said in an interview that Lily loved him as a friend and could've come to love him romantically...then why would she just let him hang like that, in complete embarrassment in front of the entire school. I find that very mean.

I am such a Lily/James shipper, but I'm also having doubts about her love for James. Who was she really?

<3

[Ifink2much]

Wimblemimble and Slylady you both make some very good points.

I found Lily a little two dimensional till DH,but in it I see her as quite normal.I liked her alot.
What you said Slylady is true,though some would argue that alot happened prior to that,that made lily change her mind.It bothers me that lily didn't know about James and Snape continuing to hex each other.Though we believe that james obviously changed alot for Lily to like him,but if she liked him in SWM then how much did he really have too change?

[Yoana]

Originally Posted by GiavonnixSavant

Agreed. What confuses me, though, is that he just called her one mean word. Just one for the first time, as far as we know. And a lot of times people get angry and say one mean word, but then they make up.

But the problem is, that word is not a personal insult, it's not like calling her what Molly called Bellatrix or something. It's a word that divides them, that sets them apart. It's like, if you have two friends from different races, the one from the more priviledges race calling the other one a racial slur. I can see why Lily was offended.

[Sly_Lady]

Originally Posted by GiavonnixSavant

Agreed. What confuses me, though, is that he just called her one mean word. Just one for the first time, as far as we know. And a lot of times people get angry and say one mean word, but then they make up.
And JKR said in an interview that Lily loved him as a friend and could've come to love him romantically...then why would she just let him hang like that, in complete embarrassment in front of the entire school. I find that very mean.

I am such a Lily/James shipper, but I'm also having doubts about her love for James. Who was she really?

It's been a while since I was a teenage girl, but from watching my own kids during their middle school and high school years, kids have a lot of choices to make about who they want to be and who they want to hang out with. I think Lily was pretty typical, a teenage girl who was sorted into the "royal" house of Gryffindor. those kids have a pretty high opinion of themselves as the cool house, and although I find the bullying Marauders awful, at 15 maybe she saw them as popular and amusing. She was obviously attracted to James in SWM.

So Lily was choosing who she wanted to be with, and like any teenage girl, she preferred to be popular and hang out with cool people. On the other hand, she'd been friends with Severus for a long time and it must have been hard for her. So she was human, and when I think about it, that's a good thing. Saints bug me, and what I love about the HP books is that the characters are so authentically human. I feel bad for poor Severus, though.

[Ifink2much]

Originally Posted by Sly_Lady

So Lily was choosing who she wanted to be with, and like any teenage girl, she preferred to be popular and hang out with cool people. On the other hand, she'd been friends with Severus for a long time and it must have been hard for her. So she was human, and when I think about it, that's a good thing. Saints bug me, and what I love about the HP books is that the characters are so authentically human. I feel bad for poor Severus, though.

You really think it was simply decision of popularity?I'd like to think she had some morals and principles in the decision.I have to say house segregation probably played it's part.Your house plays a role in your decision,kinda how society moulds individuals.It must be hard to develop in a way contrary to your house.If your house hates Slytherins,then being friends with one is no small task.having said that a Gryffindor(debatedly more then anyone) should have the courage to stand up for they believe in.

[Sly_Lady]

Originally Posted by Ifink2much

If your house hates Slytherins,then being friends with one is no small task.having said that a Gryffindor(debatedly more then anyone) should have the courage to stand up for they believe in.

If your house hates Muggleborns, and you don't have any real friends among your housemates, then being friends with one is pretty risky. Living in Gryffindor Tower, maybe Lily didn't appreciate how hard it was for Severus. The other students in Slytherin were really horrible people. He obviously cared more than anything about Lily's friendship, not to mention wanting her to be his girlfriend. But he was a geek, and definitely not, um, HAWT. That's cynical, but while I'm sure Lily was a goodhearted girl, I wonder how much popularity in her own house was a factor in dumping Severus.

I'm not faulting her for choosing James Potter, since she was obviously attracted to him in SWM. But she was harsh with Severus and unwilling to take responsibility for her own unkindness to him. The sight of the future Death Eater, his conscience wrung because of what he'd said to her, and desperate to apologize, touched me deeply.

Realistically, I can't see how they could have maintained their friendship for the rest of their time at Hogwarts, but it bugs me that she didn't accept his heartfelt apology or considered that she did anything wrong in SWM. Having known him so long, and knowing the wretched home he came from, she was smart enough to know how imp[ortant her friendship was to him, and she was very cold.

[wimblemimble]

Originally Posted by Yoana

But the problem is, that word is not a personal insult, it's not like calling her what Molly called Bellatrix or something. It's a word that divides them, that sets them apart. It's like, if you have two friends from different races, the one from the more priviledges race calling the other one a racial slur. I can see why Lily was offended.

But Snape is a half-blood, so he really is in the same boat as Lily.

[Ifink2much]

Originally Posted by Sly_Lady

If your house hates Muggleborns, and you don't have any real friends among your housemates, then being friends with one is pretty risky.
I'm not faulting her for choosing James Potter, since she was obviously attracted to him in SWM.

True.Someone made a comment on how she was being kinda unreasonable asking Severus to leave his friends(and basically his whole house).

I still don't think she was attracted to James in SWM.If she was to,it would make her completely hypocritical.

[Sly_Lady]

Originally Posted by Ifink2much

True.Someone made a comment on how she was being kinda unreasonable asking Severus to leave his friends(and basically his whole house).

If they ever talked about house things, Lily might have discovered that Severus went along in order to survive, but I can't imagine he was cool and popular in Slytherin. He was a half blood, he was poor and had no social skills. But I don't think he wanted to look pathetic to her, so he wouldn't have spoken about his social outcast-hood to her. Lily was obviously pretty and social, and made friends in her house. I imagine that if she'd wanted to, she could have figured it out anyway. She knew what his home life was like before they went to school, although Severus didn't want to dish the whole miserable story.

I still don't think she was attracted to James in SWM.If she was to, it would make her completely hypocritical.

It doesn't make me happy to say it, since that was her childhood friend being tormented in SWM, but most of Lily's attention is on James even before Snape calls her the 'M' word. She spends far more time bantering about why she won't go out with James than she does trying to get Severus out of the situation.

[anabel]

Originally Posted by Sly_Lady

But he was a geek, and definitely not, um, HAWT. That's cynical, but while I'm sure Lily was a goodhearted girl, I wonder how much popularity in her own house was a factor in dumping Severus.

I'd say that if Lily was concerned with her own popularity, she'd have dumped Snape looooong before 5th year!

Originally Posted by Sly_Lady

I'm not faulting her for choosing James Potter, since she was obviously attracted to him in SWM. But she was harsh with Severus and unwilling to take responsibility for her own unkindness to him. The sight of the future Death Eater, his conscience wrung because of what he'd said to her, and desperate to apologize, touched me deeply.

But the crux of the matter is that Snape wouldn't abandon his Death Eater ways. We are not talking about a lifestyle choice here. Death Eaters do truly evil things. How could a sensible and principled girl like Lily stand by and watch her friend sinking into that sort of evil without trying to stop him? If you had a friend who joined a racist gang that went around torturing people for fun and wanted to wipe out your entire family, what would you do?

[Beatifically]

Lily's reasons for breaking her friendship off with Snape was a bit understandable. In SWM, when Snape calls her a Mudblood, at that point I think Lily was realizing who he really was. Snape was no longer the childhood friend she knew, but a prejudiced adolescent aspiring to become a Death Eater. That insult was a wakeup call to her senses. Honestly, how many people would continue to have a friendship with someone who wanted to be apart of an army threatening the lives of innocent Muggles and Muggle Borns alike? Snape was all for what Voldemort was doing and she couldn't be friends with a person who believed such acts were fine. Everything he was hoping to become was against her morals.
That's what I assumed, anyway.

[Sly_Lady]

Originally Posted by beatifically

Lily's reasons for breaking her friendship off with Snape was a bit understandable. In SWM, when Snape calls her a Mudblood, at that point I think Lily was realizing who he really was. Snape was no longer the childhood friend she knew, but a prejudiced adolescent aspiring to become a Death Eater. That insult was a wakeup call to her senses. Honestly, how many people would continue to have a friendship with someone who wanted to be apart of an army threatening the lives of innocent Muggles and Muggle Borns alike? Snape was all for what Voldemort was doing and she couldn't be friends with a person who believed such acts were fine. Everything he was hoping to become was against her morals.
That's what I assumed, anyway.

We don't have canon for Lily's political ideas when she's a student, but we do have her words about Hogwarts house rivalries and how angry she was about what Mulciber had done. Considering that she'd been watching James and his crowd torment her childhood friend while no one stood up for him, I wonder what she was thinking.

Harry got the truth about James and his friends when he witnessed SWM, and in fact, the second time around, Harry had no wish to watch that ugly episode again. But Lily, although she began by trying to intervene, seemed to give far more attention to the bully, rather than the victim who was also her childhood best friend.

I don't believe Snape was hoping to become what you describe. I think he was doing what he had to, to survive in Slytherin. If he was really accepted and had friends, he wouldn't have felt the need to sleep outside the Gryffindor portrait hole to try to apologize to her.

[Moriath]

I asked this once before, could we please avoid the word torment in regard to SWM? We all agree that James' and Sirius' actions were wrong but this word seems to be very loaded with connotations that go beyond what happened in this scene.

[Sly_Lady]

Originally Posted by Madron

I asked this once before, could we please avoid the word torment in regard to SWM? We all agree that James' and Sirius' actions were wrong but this word seems to be very loaded with connotations that go beyond what happened in this scene.

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that torment is an unacceptable word. Is there a more acceptable one that I can use? Because there are different interpretations of what occurred in SWM and I thought it fit.

[Jessica]

Originally Posted by Sly_Lady

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that torment is an unacceptable word. Is there a more acceptable one that I can use? Because there are different interpretations of what occurred in SWM and I thought it fit.

it's just inflammatory. Tensions are obviously high in a lot of the threads right now, so a little thought into how things are worded can go a long way

[Beatifically]

We don't have canon for Lily's political ideas when she's a student, but we do have her words about Hogwarts house rivalries and how angry she was about what Mulciber had done.

She was definitely angry at Mulciber and Avery's acts. She sounded disgusted when she was saying that Snape wanted to become a DE (along with his "friends"), so I assume that she was against Voldemort.

I don't believe Snape was hoping to become what you describe.

He certainly did want to become a DE, even if it wasn't because he truly believed in Voldemort's ideas. His insecurities and need to be impressive drove him to join the DE. Plus, he thought becoming one would impress Lily....

[wimblemimble]

Originally Posted by Madron

I asked this once before, could we please avoid the word torment in regard to SWM? We all agree that James' and Sirius' actions were wrong but this word seems to be very loaded with connotations that go beyond what happened in this scene.

Actually, according to the dictionary (since so many people like to quote it around here) torment would be a perfectly acceptable word.

1.to afflict with great bodily or mental suffering; pain: to be tormented with violent headaches.
2.to worry or annoy excessively: to torment one with questions.
3.to throw into commotion; stir up; disturb. –noun
4.a state of great bodily or mental suffering; agony; misery.
5.something that causes great bodily or mental pain or suffering.
6.a source of much trouble, worry, or annoyance.
7.an instrument of torture, as the rack or the thumbscrew.
8.the infliction of torture by means of such an instrument or the torture so inflicted.

I think number four, five, and six apply to SWM, possibly others as well. I don't mean to argue a point for the sake of it, but rather because I think torment is a perfectly acceptable word choice.