Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by canismajoris

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like one can do quite a lot with a wand other than engage in single combat. I'm not asking why Lily didn't fight back, I'm why she wasn't even prepared to.

True but given that having a wand has never stopped Voldemort from murdering someone, I don't think it would have made much difference in this case. It seemed to me that they didn't have any backup plan at all. If they had their wands, I think they would have simply tried to fight him off rather than use it to delay him in order to execute a plan.

Maybe I've just read too many books or seen too many movies, but I know that believing you're safe is a poor excuse to let your guard down.

Well, that's what happens when you trust someone. Its like imagining your dad, your sister etc betraying you. Such a thought might not even occur to you.

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by canismajoris

Just getting back to this briefly... I literally don't understand how one person gets credit for unintended consequences and another one doesn't. Lily's good intentions might have backfired spectacularly rather than saving Harry, but by some chance or quirk of magic they didn't. If they had, would you tell me you wouldn't find fault with Lily's actions simply because she meant well?

The only person I fault in this situation is Voldemort. I don't see how anyone could fault Lily for begging for her child's life, not knowing what the outcome would be. She knew perfectly well there was no guarantee that Voldemort would spare her little boy just because she begged him, but what other choice was she left with?

I don't blame either Lily or James for their wandless situation. I do find it surprising, given that they are supposed to be such experienced Order members. But that's not the same as blaming them. In their final moments, JKR portrays both of them as young and vulnerable ... which they were, of course, since they were only 21. Anyway, the Potters believed their security was water-tight ... and when it came to a wand-fight, both would be outmatched by Voldemort anyway. (Although I admit I'd have liked to have seen them try ...)

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by canismajoris

Just getting back to this briefly... I literally don't understand how one person gets credit for unintended consequences and another one doesn't. Lily's good intentions might have backfired spectacularly rather than saving Harry, but by some chance or quirk of magic they didn't. If they had, would you tell me you wouldn't find fault with Lily's actions simply because she meant well?

Snape had selfish, disgusting intentions. He bargained with the life of someone else's baby. That was something appalling, IMO. I don't give him credit for something good coming of an action I find selfish and disgusting.

Lily bargained with her own life, not someone else's. She was acting solely to protect her son. If Lily's actions hadn't saved Harry, I would still consider them good and brave. Yes, I do think intentions count - why shouldn't they? Intentions matter - if a Secret Keeper passes on the secret with an intent to help, i.e. getting a healer in, it's rather different from passing on the secret with an intent to betray, as Wormtail did. I don't know why intentions should be dismissed - a person's intentions when they act show a lot about them. The consequences may not correspond to the intentions, but in terms of analysing a character, I think that their intentions show more about them than unintended consequences.

[Melaszka]

This is NOT the Snape thread. The next person who draws comparisons between Lily and Snape or incites others to draw such comparisons or otherwise makes this debate as much or more about Snape than Lily is out of here.

[lacerta_lynx]

Some people might think I villify Lily, but I don't think the word mudblood was the last straw for her. Rather, Lily's friendship with Snape was long gone when that happened and I think she was just looking for a reason to dump him. When he tries to apologize, she conveniently forgets she sided with the bullies -- which is excusable IMO, but the lack of regret bothers me -- and that he is trying to apologize and use an excuse that not even the Marauders use: that he was going to be a death eater.
When he tries to apologize, Lily can not end his friendship with him just because of the name -- he did apologize -- and try to change the focus, saying that he was going down the wrong path just like Avery and Mulciber, even though, at that time, probably wasn't true, since Snape's act of apologizing with Lily for the word says a lot, and I will repeat myself here: Sirius in GoF says no one knew Snape was going to be a Death Eater, and James in SWM could've used the excuse that Snape somewhat deserved it because of what he was aspiring to be, but James uses another excuse: it's because he exists.
What made me change my mind about her was Lily's talk with Snape about the werewolf accident. She accepts entirely the Marauder's version -- and I don't see nothing that wrong here-- but she doesn't seem to even think of the fact Snape was in danger, she focus on the fact he should be grateful because James Potter saved him. For me, Lily already made her decision of not be friends with Snape anymore by then...
Of course, she was young and being always in the center of the attentions just like her future husband, it would be ask too much of her to not be shallow or naive, but she never seemed to have the should've done different thought...
And even though JK said it, I don't think Lily would ever be with Snape. The opposites attract law not always work, but I also don't think James was a good match for her either. They were perfect for each other in a wrong way: instead of bringing the best on each other, they brought the worst, and from a girl that could've been brilliant, she turned herself in the 5th marauder... And that's what I think it's sad about her.
However, she was a kind and compassionate person and her daring personality was the thing that made her befriend Snape in the first place, and the act of dying for Harry, even tough it wasn't exactly heroic (many mothers die for her sons or daughters), meant she could love selfless and that makes a huge difference.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by lacerta_lynx

Some people might think I villify Lily, but I don't think the word mudblood was the last straw for her. Rather, Lily's friendship with Snape was long gone when that happened and I think she was just looking for a reason to dump him. When he tries to apologize, she conveniently forgets she sided with the bullies -- which is excusable IMO, but the lack of regret bothers me -- and that he is trying to apologize and use an excuse that not even the Marauders use: that he was going to be a death eater.

By siding with the bullies are you refering to her siding with the marauders?

I do think that Snape's insult was kind of the last straw. Rather than saying their friendship was already over by that point I would say it was seriously on the rocks. In that sense I think calling her a mudblood was the beginning of the end rather than the end in and of itself. I don't think Snape would have let her go that easily, but that's a topic for the Snape thread.

When he tries to apologize, Lily can not end his friendship with him just because of the name -- he did apologize -- and try to change the focus, saying that he was going down the wrong path just like Avery and Mulciber, even though, at that time, probably wasn't true, since Snape's act of apologizing with Lily for the word says a lot, and I will repeat myself here: Sirius in GoF says no one knew Snape was going to be a Death Eater, and James in SWM could've used the excuse that Snape somewhat deserved it because of what he was aspiring to be, but James uses another excuse: it's because he exists.

In one of Snape's memories Lily confronts Snape saying she knows what he and his friends are all aiming to become so she knew or had, at the very least, strongly supported suspicions that Snape would become a Death Eater. Sirius and the marauders didn't know because they didn't know Snape like Lily did, though it shocks me that they wouldn't at least be suspicious of his future as well. (Could you provide a quote from GOF where Sirius said no one knew about Snape becoming a Death Eater? I can't remember that in the books.)

What made me change my mind about her was Lily's talk with Snape about the werewolf accident. She accepts entirely the Marauder's version -- and I don't see nothing that wrong here-- but she doesn't seem to even think of the fact Snape was in danger, she focus on the fact he should be grateful because James Potter saved him. For me, Lily already made her decision of not be friends with Snape anymore by then...

I don't think this is evidence that their friendship was already over. Rather, Lily might not be thinking of Snape being in danger because he put himself in that position. He already had suspicions that Remus was a werewolf and he went out into the grounds the night of a full moon on a tip given to him by a friend of the werewolf. I think Lily is focusing more on the fact that Snape can't put aside his hatred of James and appreciate the fact that James had just saved his life.

Of course, she was young and being always in the center of the attentions just like her future husband, it would be ask too much of her to not be shallow or naive, but she never seemed to have the should've done different thought...

There isn't canon evidence that Lily was always the center of attention. I think she's described as very pretty and well liked but that doesn't mean she was the center of attention. Neither is she described or depicted in the memories (IMO)as shallow or naiive. I think those memories where she interacts with Snape show her friendship, her caring, her concern and at times her frustration with Snape.

And even though JK said it, I don't think Lily would ever be with Snape. The opposites attract law not always work, but I also don't think James was a good match for her either. They were perfect for each other in a wrong way: instead of bringing the best on each other, they brought the worst, and from a girl that could've been brilliant, she turned herself in the 5th marauder... And that's what I think it's sad about her.

I could see how Lily could be with Snape but I think they would have made a very odd couple. She's described as cheeky and vivacious and he's always been portrayed as dower and serious; I don't know how happy she would be with someone who is so serious all the time... In that regard I think she and James were a better match and will end it there lest I get too far into a James vs. Snape thing and my post is deleted. =^P

However, she was a kind and compassionate person and her daring personality was the thing that made her befriend Snape in the first place, and the act of dying for Harry, even tough it wasn't exactly heroic (many mothers die for her sons or daughters), meant she could love selfless and that makes a huge difference.

I disagree, I think it was curiosity that led her to her friendship with Snape. His initial approach was a disaster in his mind but it made her curious.

[Pan_Kleks]

Lily's biggest point of contention was Severus' friendship with people like Mulciber, Avery and other future D.E.'s, she did later on in the memory tell him she'd made excuses for him to her friends. I would assume that she'd likely tell them that he was a good person even if he was in with the wrong crowd and that he didn't believe what those particular Slytherin's did. I think, it would be hard to justify her defence of him to her friends after he called her a Mudblood and obviously parroted the beliefs of his group of cronies at her.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by lacerta_lynx

Some people might think I villify Lily, but I don't think the word mudblood was the last straw for her. Rather, Lily's friendship with Snape was long gone when that happened and I think she was just looking for a reason to dump him. When he tries to apologize, she conveniently forgets she sided with the bullies -- which is excusable IMO, but the lack of regret bothers me -- and that he is trying to apologize and use an excuse that not even the Marauders use: that he was going to be a death eater.

Where did Lily side with the bullies? She told them off, she warned them to let Snape alone, ordered them to let him down from mid-air. She gave them a verbal roasting. I see nothing for Lily to regret, apart from not ending the friendship the moment Snape started hanging out with racist creeps like Avery and Mulciber. These were people who considered Lily subhuman. These were people who thought Lily didn't deserve magic, or even to live. I think the blinkers came off when Snape threw the worst racial epithet in the wizarding world at her - she realised that no friend would hang around with people who considered her filth. No true friend would throw racist abuse at her.

When he tries to apologize, Lily can not end his friendship with him just because of the name -- he did apologize -- and try to change the focus, saying that he was going down the wrong path just like Avery and Mulciber, even though, at that time, probably wasn't true, since Snape's act of apologizing with Lily for the word says a lot, and I will repeat myself here:

He apologised because Lily showed that she wouldn't stand for it, not because the word itself was unacceptable. I don't think it's as trivial as "just a name". That word isn't "just a name" - it's the very worst racial epithet in the wizarding world, and its real-world parallels are quite blatant. There is everything that name stands for - that word is weighted with prejudice and bigotry. That word means the target is scum, filthy and unworthy of magic. That showed that Lily had a "friend" who did not respect her. Why should Lily stay in a friendship with someone like that? An apology means little unless there's a genuine acknowledgement that someone did something wrong, that they were responsible for their actions and there's a willingness to change. Snape didn't acknowledge that it was wrong, and a terrible thing to call anyone. He says "sorry", but qualifies it with " I didn't mean -". Lily was not obliged to accept a friend who considered her a " filthy little mudblood", and who hung around with DE wannabes, who himself wanted to join the very group that was oppressing and murdering Muggleborns.

What made me change my mind about her was Lily's talk with Snape about the werewolf accident. She accepts entirely the Marauder's version -- and I don't see nothing that wrong here-- but she doesn't seem to even think of the fact Snape was in danger, she focus on the fact he should be grateful because James Potter saved him. For me, Lily already made her decision of not be friends with Snape anymore by then...

Lily knew Snape suspected Lupin was a werewolf before the incident. She knew then, that Snape went down the passageway expecting to find a transformed werewolf. That was a stupid thing to do, and I wonder if Lily saw it as such.
And what should she have been doing? This was a day or so after the werewolf incident, I think. Should Lily have still been gushing over Snape being in danger?

Of course, she was young and being always in the center of the attentions just like her future husband, it would be ask too much of her to not be shallow or naive, but she never seemed to have the should've done different thought...

I fail to see what was shallow about Lily. Lily objected to the most shallow and arrogant thing of all in the books - the blood prejudice, as spouted by her so-called friend. She showed self-respect in getting out of a toxic friendship. What should Lily have done different? Supported Snape in his DE career? Snape refused Lily's advice, he refused to listen to her concerns about his dangerous friends. She could not keep putting herself at risk, both safety and self-respect, for someone who refused to acknowledge that he was doing anything wrong. I admire Lily for getting out of that toxic friendship. I think it takes strength and self-respect to refuse to be someone else's doormat and to acknowledge that you cannot "save" someone from themselves, especially if they refuse your help.

And even though JK said it, I don't think Lily would ever be with Snape. The opposites attract law not always work, but I also don't think James was a good match for her either. They were perfect for each other in a wrong way: instead of bringing the best on each other, they brought the worst, and from a girl that could've been brilliant, she turned herself in the 5th marauder... And that's what I think it's sad about her.

In what way did Lily become the fifth Marauder? She and James were good for each other. Lily and James worked together against Voldemort. Lily chose to oppose Voldemort rather than support a Death Eater in his career of crime. I think it would have been a tragedy for Lily if she had become nothing more than a conscience-lacking, blind-eye-turning mob-wife to a DE. Or if she had withered away into another Eileen Prince, miserable in a destructive relationship with someone who didn't respect her and took his problems out on her.

However, she was a kind and compassionate person and her daring personality was the thing that made her befriend Snape in the first place, and the act of dying for Harry, even tough it wasn't exactly heroic (many mothers die for her sons or daughters), meant she could love selfless and that makes a huge difference.

I think it was heroic. Lily was offered the chance to save herself. She chose to protect her son. She didn't know it would do anything at all to protect Harry. As far as she knew, he was going to die right after her. Yet, she chose not to abandon her baby to a murdering madman. Also, just because lots of parents die to protect their children, doesn't make it less heroic. Lots of firefighters, for example, die trying to save others. Doesn't make any one of them less heroic.

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

I do think that Snape's insult was kind of the last straw. Rather than saying their friendship was already over by that point I would say it was seriously on the rocks. In that sense I think calling her a mudblood was the beginning of the end rather than the end in and of itself.

I think it caused Lily to wake up and smell the coffee. She could no longer kid herself about the path Snape was taking. She could no longer kid herself that he wasn't like Mulciber and Avery. She could no longer kid herself that he was the same boy she had befriended.

There isn't canon evidence that Lily was always the center of attention. I think she's described as very pretty and well liked but that doesn't mean she was the center of attention. Neither is she described or depicted in the memories (IMO)as shallow or naiive. I think those memories where she interacts with Snape show her friendship, her caring, her concern and at times her frustration with Snape.

I agree. Lily is never shown as seeking attention. Nor is she shown as being shallow - actually, I consider Snape's actions shallow here - the blood prejudice is incredibly shallow and arrogant.

I disagree, I think it was curiosity that led her to her friendship with Snape. His initial approach was a disaster in his mind but it made her curious.

I think it was mutual curiosity and interest. Both were delighted to meet another wizarding child, and I think that laid the foundation for the friendship on both sides.

Originally Posted by Pan_Kleks

Lily's biggest point of contention was Severus' friendship with people like Mulciber, Avery and other future D.E.'s, she did later on in the memory tell him she'd made excuses for him to her friends. I would assume that she'd likely tell them that he was a good person even if he was in with the wrong crowd and that he didn't believe what those particular Slytherin's did. I think, it would be hard to justify her defence of him to her friends after he called her a Mudblood and obviously parroted the beliefs of his group of cronies at her.

I think she did tell herself - and Snape - that he was better than them. In one of the memories, she tells Snape she doesn't know why he hangs around with Mulciber, because Mulciber is creepy. Clearly, she thinks that Snape is different, that he isn't like his budding DE pals. I think she believes them a bad influence. I don't think she realised exactly how far down that dark path Snape had gone until he threw the worst racial epithet in the wizarding world at her.
I think she told her friends what you suggest. I think Lily's friends' concerns for her were much like Lily's concerns for Snape - "the person/people you're hanging out with are trouble and I/we don't want them to drag you into their mess".

[Moriath]

Please, folks, shades of grey! Introduce them to your posts! And while you're at it, please make sure that your posts lose any confrontational or inflammatory language.

For reference:

REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray

How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic.

[lacerta_lynx]

I see some people disagreed on what I said about her waiting a reason for dumping him -- well, that is, indeed, what I think, and what it seems to me and we disagree on that.
Because even though James' version of the werewolf thing was full of holes as such
1. What was James doing there anyway, shouldn't he be in his dorm (in the view of a person who doesn't know what the marauders do)?
2.What was down there (it was Lupin's secret, but Lily should at least ask someone about this).
3.James, if he saved Snape, knew what was down there, and if was something dangerous, then why he didn't tell the Headmaster (again, in the view of a person that didn't know)?
But Lily never question any of this. Snape even said to Lily he was just trying to save his own neck and his friends' neck, and that lupin was werewolf (bad attitude, by the way). Lily, at that time, wasn't friends with the Marauders, and even (as some people said) if her friendship with Snape was on the last straw, shouldn't she at least question the Marauder's version...?
It's not just the fact she didn't trust Snape as much anymore that make me think the way I do -- it's because she, even before the SWM, believed what the Marauders said, and changed the focus on the conversation to Avery and Mulciber, saying the idea of what they did was just a laugh was evil -- but the Marauders did the same (the spell that swell heads isn't much of a light spell, if you ask me and no threat to Mary's life was mentioned).
I, however, would believe their friendship was in the last straw if Lily mentioned what she said after SWM. Had she questioned before that Avery and Mulciber were proto death eaters, and that he was going down on the same way, and if he, yet, used the word mudblood, then, yes, I would agree with you all.
But I'm not character bashing -- the thing is, Lily was young at that time, and, of course, being naive, and self centered is something expected from a 16 years old, especially her, that was the centre of attention (smart, pretty and even had a group of giggling girls, mentioned in SWM), wasn't much emphatic and couldn't understand that Snape couldn't afford losing his friendship with his housemates (the same way she couldn't understand why Tuney didn't like her so much). Lily could find new friends easily and didn't understand that Snape couldn't -- and then he would be persecuted by the slytherins and the gryffindors all the same, even if he did find new friends, say, in the ravenclaw house.
And it didn't make her bad, or evil, just a normal teenage girl under the extreme pressure of a war banging on her door.
And yes, I do believe she sided with the bullies (again, we are disagreeing) because even if she thought James was as bad as Snape, she did leave Snape at James' mercy, did make a snide remark on his underpants and did call him snivellus, and unlike Snape, that showed deep regret for what he had said, she didn't. But -- again -- that doesn't make her bad. Just a normal teenage girl. I don't see what's wrong with that.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by lacerta_lynx

1. What was James doing there anyway, shouldn't he be in his dorm (in the view of a person who doesn't know what the marauders do)?

He very well might have been in his dorm, then Sirius walks in bragging about how he sent Snape down the willow passage and James would have gone running after him.

2.What was down there (it was Lupin's secret, but Lily should at least ask someone about this).

I assume you mean "did James know what was at the end of the passage?" YES! A fully fledged werewolf who wouldn't hesitate to bite or kill any person it found down that passage. James (IMO) didn't want Remus burdened by the guilt of having inflicted his disease on anyone else nor did he want Remus to have the burden on being a murderer so James went and saved Snape before anything bad could happen despite severely not liking Snape.

3.James, if he saved Snape, knew what was down there, and if was something dangerous, then why he didn't tell the Headmaster (again, in the view of a person that didn't know)?

He probably didn't have time and, in addition, didn't want his best friend expelled for possibly sending another student to their death.. If he had stopped to tell Dumbledore anything Snape might have been attacked or killed by Remus. There wasn't time, or at least didn't appear to be time, to stop and tell anyone. The whole story came out when Snape told Dumbledore what happened and I'm sure Sirius got a boat load of detentions, maybe even a suspension (though there's no canon precedence for suspending Hogwarts students).

I badly want to reply to the rest of the post but I dont have time... =^( Maybe in a couple hours...

EDIT: To finish my reply

To complete my thought on point number three above, it's pretty obvious that Sirius would be repremanded for what he did to Snape but I do believe that if James had gone to Dumbledore BEFORE going down the willow passage to save Snape and it turns out that Snape had been attacked or killed, Sirius for sure would have gotten a far worse punishment - probably explusion - than if James had stopped Snape before anything bad could have happened to him - in which case, as in canon, Sirius's punishment would most likely have been a long string of detentions and restrictions on other activities he enjoyed (removed from the Quidditch team if he had been on the team, banned from any clubs he might participate in, etc)

But Lily never question any of this. Snape even said to Lily he was just trying to save his own neck and his friends' neck, and that lupin was werewolf (bad attitude, by the way). Lily, at that time, wasn't friends with the Marauders, and even (as some people said) if her friendship with Snape was on the last straw, shouldn't she at least question the Marauder's version...?

At this point, their relationship hadn't reached the 'last straw' they were still 'on the rocks.' Lily may have, at this point, begun to question Snape's intentions both towards her (realizing he had a crush on her) and towards James/Marauders whom he has this very contentious relationship with. At this time she might be questioning what Snape tells her in regards to James in particular, especially since both Lily and Snape seem to know James fancies her - Snape is upset by this, Lily might have been a little oddly flattered - she might even have had a little crush on James in return.

It's not just the fact she didn't trust Snape as much anymore that make me think the way I do -- it's because she, even before the SWM, believed what the Marauders said, and changed the focus on the conversation to Avery and Mulciber, saying the idea of what they did was just a laugh was evil -- but the Marauders did the same (the spell that swell heads isn't much of a light spell, if you ask me and no threat to Mary's life was mentioned).

Snape had shared with Lily his suspicions that Remus was a werewolf and probably deduced that his friends had a hand in covering for him. To her this probably showed her that they were, deep down, good, loyal friends. As far as the head-swelling jinx and Mulciber's curse, it's hard to equate them; Mulciber is directly and overtly said to be using dark magic. Just because her life might not have been in danger doesn't mean mulciber was using a tickling charm on her. Bellatrix drove the Longbottoms to madness with the cruciatus curse - arguably non-leathal but dangerous dark magic non the less. The head-swelling jinx is a little more mystifying because it's not stated on page whether this was a jinx they learned from a friend, a jinx that was experiencing a 'vouge' as levicorpus did, or if, indeed, it was one of the illegal hexes James and Sirius were placed in detention for. There's just not enough known about both situations to adequately judge them against each other. What can be said for sure, though, is that Mulciber's intentions were not to be nice to Mary. He was out to do her harm. James and Sirius were mostly likely playing a prank they thought was funny, meaning their intentions were not to do their victim grievous harm.

But I'm not character bashing -- the thing is, Lily was young at that time, and, of course, being naive, and self centered is something expected from a 16 years old, especially her, that was the centre of attention (smart, pretty and even had a group of giggling girls, mentioned in SWM), wasn't much emphatic and couldn't understand that Snape couldn't afford losing his friendship with his housemates (the same way she couldn't understand why Tuney didn't like her so much). Lily could find new friends easily and didn't understand that Snape couldn't -- and then he would be persecuted by the slytherins and the gryffindors all the same, even if he did find new friends, say, in the ravenclaw house.

I wouldn't say that because she's pretty, smart and seen in the company of a gaggle of girls that that makes her automatically self centered. I'd say that shows that she's got a large group of friends and seems to be well liked by those girls. Neither would I say that she didn't understand that Snape was between a rock and a hard place with his position in Slytherin - choose her and he could become mulciber's next dark magic victim. Choose his slytherin friends and he loses the girl he's loved for about ten years. I think she very much understood the consequences for Snape and that was part of the reason she stayed his friend for as long as she did, despite her friends not understand it. Lily was arguably the person who knew Snape the best in the world and I think she knew exactly how difficult it would be for Snape to make friends that weren't headed toward Death Eatership. That was his natural tendancy, his personal interest and it would take someone like herself leading him by the hand every step of the way in order for him to get in with a 'good' crowd. Then, as Lily would also know, it would take those new friends accepting Snape's peculiar intensity and interests. She knew. She definitely knew. I also disagree with your statement that she didn't understand why Petunia was upset with her (May I take a moment to express my extreme distaste for the nickname "Tuney"? *wretching* Moment over.)

[lacerta_lynx]

He very well might have been in his dorm, then Sirius walks in bragging about how he sent Snape down the willow passage and James would have gone running after him.

I assume you mean "did James know what was at the end of the passage?" YES! A fully fledged werewolf who wouldn't hesitate to bite or kill any person it found down that passage. James (IMO) didn't want Remus burdened by the guilt of having inflicted his disease on anyone else nor did he want Remus to have the burden on being a murderer so James went and saved Snape before anything bad could happen despite severely not liking Snape.

He probably didn't have time and, in addition, didn't want his best friend expelled for possibly sending another student to their death.. If he had stopped to tell Dumbledore anything Snape might have been attacked or killed by Remus. There wasn't time, or at least didn't appear to be time, to stop and tell anyone. The whole story came out when Snape told Dumbledore what happened and I'm sure Sirius got a boat load of detentions, maybe even a suspension (though there's no canon precedence for suspending Hogwarts students).

You completely misunderstood my point. This thread isn't about James, and I wanted to point it out that Lily didn't know these things, and she should've asked. But she didn't, and accepted a version full of holes from people that weren't even her friends at that time (or worse, a little bit of enemies). And worst: she don't even bother ask what the other version might be. That's why I think the friendship was over by then. It's not just about distrusting Snape -- it's about chosing the bullies version over his (a version that she doesn't even know, by the way, she knew nothing about Sirius) and believe quite quickly it was his fault, even though the Marauders have the tendency to spin Snape in the worst light possible, and she knew it.
Sounds like friendship over to me.

What can be said for sure, though, is that Mulciber's intentions were not to be nice to Mary. He was out to do her harm. James and Sirius were mostly likely playing a prank they thought was funny, meaning their intentions were not to do their victim grievous harm.

I don't see how Avery and Mulciber can't be the Slytherin version of James and Sirius, and how can you be so sure Mulciber wanted to do Mary any harm? I might be wrong here -- but my point still stands. Lily questions what Avery and Mulciber do, but not what the Marauders do, and they are still very similar. And the idea of what the marauders do is funny is still kind of evil, IMHO. Just a laugh or let's kill Mary, both are wrong, and Lily has a blind eye for her housemates, just like Snape had.

Mulciber is directly and overtly said to be using dark magic.

The concept is abstract, and I won't put the quote here -- but don't think if it was the cruciatus, most likely Avery and Mulciber would've gone to Azkaban? The fact that they probably didn't get more than a detention says a lot about what kind of "dark magic" they used.

I wouldn't say that because she's pretty, smart and seen in the company of a gaggle of girls that that makes her automatically self centered. I'd say that shows that she's got a large group of friends and seems to be well liked by those girls. Neither would I say that she didn't understand that Snape was between a rock and a hard place with his position in Slytherin - choose her and he could become mulciber's next dark magic victim. Choose his slytherin friends and he loses the girl he's loved for about ten years. I think she very much understood the consequences for Snape and that was part of the reason she stayed his friend for as long as she did, despite her friends not understand it. Lily was arguably the person who knew Snape the best in the world and I think she knew exactly how difficult it would be for Snape to make friends that weren't headed toward Death Eatership. That was his natural tendancy, his personal interest and it would take someone like herself leading him by the hand every step of the way in order for him to get in with a 'good' crowd. Then, as Lily would also know, it would take those new friends accepting Snape's peculiar intensity and interests. She knew. She definitely knew. I also disagree with your statement that she didn't understand why Petunia was upset with her (May I take a moment to express my extreme distaste for the nickname "Tuney"? *wretching* Moment over.)

Then we have to disagree here, because Lily was a bit self centered in thinking just because she told Snape to don't hang out with Avery and Mulciber anymore then he would've stopped. She changed nothing Snape's situation, nor she makes an effort to understand. Snape wasn't listening to her, and he should have, but either way Lily didn't do much to help her friend more than telling him what to do and making excuses for him (nice, but what about listening to him for a change?)... She talks to much, listens to little, and was that intentional or not, it was a mistake she made. Much like Hermione, who wants to save the house elves, but she doesn't make any effort to understand what the house elves think and chooses the wrong approach to help them. Common teenage girl mistakes, I think.
Also, I would like to add that even though Snape loved Lily for quite some time, doesn't change the fact that Lily couldn't protect him in the slytherin dorms, every class, in the common room... And thousands of other places. "Snape's peculiar interests" are something to be discussed in another place, though I would say that by then he wasn't as dark as he was in his sixth year, even if he used Sectusempra in SWM... He was defending himself, not attacking, and after, if Sirius is to be trusted, Snape became more offensive.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

Snape had shared with Lily his suspicions that Remus was a werewolf and probably deduced that his friends had a hand in covering for him. To her this probably showed her that they were, deep down, good, loyal friends.

Also, I think she may have felt that another student's rumoured health condition was simply none of her business to pry in and gossip about.

I wouldn't say that because she's pretty, smart and seen in the company of a gaggle of girls that that makes her automatically self centered.

I agree. I fail to see how being pretty and having friends seems to automatically equal self-centred and shallow.

Neither would I say that she didn't understand that Snape was between a rock and a hard place with his position in Slytherin - choose her and he could become mulciber's next dark magic victim. Choose his slytherin friends and he loses the girl he's loved for about ten years. I think she very much understood the consequences for Snape and that was part of the reason she stayed his friend for as long as she did, despite her friends not understand it.

Perhaps. I think Lily may have been in denial - I think she refused to acknowledge for a long time that her friend had changed, he was no longer the boy she had befriended. I think losing her relationship with Petunia may have been a factor in her attitude towards the friendship with Snape - she didn't want to lose someone else who had been a big part of her childhood.

And it says something about Mulciber as a "friend" if he would turn dark magic on Snape if Snape stopped hanging around with him.

That was his natural tendancy, his personal interest and it would take someone like herself leading him by the hand every step of the way in order for him to get in with a 'good' crowd.

And it wasn't her responsibility to morally "babysit" Snape through his life and walk him through the reasons why not to become a dangerous criminal, and give him a "reason" not to become a DE.

Originally Posted by lacerta_lynx

You completely misunderstood my point. This thread isn't about James, and I wanted to point it out that Lily didn't know these things, and she should've asked. But she didn't, and accepted a version full of holes from people that weren't even her friends at that time (or worse, a little bit of enemies). And worst: she don't even bother ask what the other version might be.

Maybe it's because Lily knows that Lupin's condition is his own business. Maybe she doesn't think it's her place to snoop in another students' health.

That's why I think the friendship was over by then. It's not just about distrusting Snape -- it's about chosing the bullies version over his (a version that she doesn't even know, by the way, she knew nothing about Sirius) and believe quite quickly it was his fault, even though the Marauders have the tendency to spin Snape in the worst light possible, and she knew it.
Sounds like friendship over to me.

Personally, I think Lily was being rational. Friendship does not mean blindly agreeing and supporting everything. That's being a sycophant. A good friend can think for themselves and is capable of telling their friend they're in the wrong, and can hear a friend tell them they're in the wrong without it being a disaster.

I don't see how Avery and Mulciber can't be the Slytherin version of James and Sirius, and how can you be so sure Mulciber wanted to do Mary any harm?

Lily said that it was dark magic. And there is nothing to contradict that, and there is the canon fact that Mulciber went on to become a DE.
Avery and Mulciber were racist thugs who planned to become DEs. James and Sirius were not. Therefore, I don't see how they are versions of each other.

I might be wrong here -- but my point still stands. Lily questions what Avery and Mulciber do, but not what the Marauders do, and they are still very similar. And the idea of what the marauders do is funny is still kind of evil, IMHO. Just a laugh or let's kill Mary, both are wrong, and Lily has a blind eye for her housemates, just like Snape had.

Lily did not have a blind eye towards the marauders - when she and Snape are discussing them, she acknowledges that he's an "arrogant toerag". She certainly doesn't dismiss what they do as "just a laugh". I think Lily draws a distinction between schoolyard bullying and dark magic. And she stands up to her housemates, on Snape's behalf, in front of the entire fifth year group. Something none of his DE buddies did.

The concept is abstract, and I won't put the quote here -- but don't think if it was the cruciatus, most likely Avery and Mulciber would've gone to Azkaban? The fact that they probably didn't get more than a detention says a lot about what kind of "dark magic" they used.

Or that they weren't caught. The DEs were quite good at not getting caught, as the series shows.

Then we have to disagree here, because Lily was a bit self centered in thinking just because she told Snape to don't hang out with Avery and Mulciber anymore then he would've stopped. She changed nothing Snape's situation, nor she makes an effort to understand.

What could Lily have changed? Snape himself had to make the decision whether or not to be a criminal. Lily couldn't make that choice for him. But she did make it for herself.

I don't see how Lily was self-centred in not wanting Snape to hang around Mulciber and Avery. These were racist thugs, DE wannabes who considered people like Lily to be subhuman scum. I don't think Lily was asking too much by expecting her so-called friend to respect her. And she wasn't getting respect from a friend who hung around with people who despised and wanted to oppress Muggleborns. Personally, I think she was foolish and naive to stay in that situation as long as she did.

Snape wasn't listening to her, and he should have, but either way Lily didn't do much to help her friend more than telling him what to do and making excuses for him (nice, but what about listening to him for a change?)...

I think it was Snape who was failing to listen to Lily. Lily was concerned about Snape, she warned him about his friends being bad news. I think that's what any decent friend would do. No decent friend would be all supportive and thumbs up about their friend joining a criminal group, or hanging around with racist wannabe criminals.

She talks to much, listens to little, and was that intentional or not, it was a mistake she made.

What should Lily have been listening to? The good points of the DEs? The reasons why dark magic was okay as long as it was used against people the DEs decided deserved it?

Common teenage girl mistakes, I think.

I find that quite a generalisation.

[LyraLovegood]

Originally Posted by lynx

I don't see how Avery and Mulciber can't be the Slytherin version of James and Sirius, and how can you be so sure Mulciber wanted to do Mary any harm? I might be wrong here -- but my point still stands. Lily questions what Avery and Mulciber do, but not what the Marauders do, and they are still very similar. And the idea of what the marauders do is funny is still kind of evil, IMHO. Just a laugh or let's kill Mary, both are wrong, and Lily has a blind eye for her housemates, just like Snape had.

Avery and Mulciber may be the Slytherin version of James and Sirius in that they were the House bullies who went around hexing other people. However, we can be sure that A & M meant harm to Mary because they used Dark Magic to do it. What is it that makes Dark Magic "Dark?" It's inherant intent to harm. What the Marauders do, i.e. the head-swelling hex, is presented in the text as comparatively harmless. More like the bat-bogey hex that Ginny uses, or the hexes used outside the Potions classroom used on Crabbe and Hermione in Book 2. Use of these hexes, head-swelling included, get the students who cast them nothing worse than detention, and the victims of the hexes nothing worse than a day with Madame Pomfrey.

Dark Magic, on the other hand: the books gives as examples Sectumsempra, Imperio, Crucio, and Avada Kedavra. The consequences are much more severe for the victim, and the punishment is Azkaban for the caster.

I see no reason to doubt Lily's judgement in that she says that what A & M do are Dark Magic, while what James and Sirius do are pranks and hexes. Lily was Prefect, and as such had some authority over her fellow students. I think that means that Dumbledore trusted her to evaluate how severe the misbehavior of other students was, and to know that there was a difference between being one guy being an arrogant toe-rag, and the other guys wanting to join up with Voldemort as soon as they got out of school.

In my opinion, this does not make Lily "shallow." It makes her a competant judge of character. She has her flaws, yes. But the fact that she did not lump James and Sirius in with the boys who wanted to be Death Eaters was not one of her flaws.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by lacerta_lynx

You completely misunderstood my point. This thread isn't about James, and I wanted to point it out that Lily didn't know these things, and she should've asked. But she didn't, and accepted a version full of holes from people that weren't even her friends at that time (or worse, a little bit of enemies). And worst: she don't even bother ask what the other version might be. That's why I think the friendship was over by then. It's not just about distrusting Snape -- it's about chosing the bullies version over his (a version that she doesn't even know, by the way, she knew nothing about Sirius) and believe quite quickly it was his fault, even though the Marauders have the tendency to spin Snape in the worst light possible, and she knew it.
Sounds like friendship over to me.

How do we know she didn't ask? Just because it wasn't shown in canon doesn't mean she didn't. Let's take your points from Lily's point of view then:

1. What was James doing there anyway, shouldn't he be in his dorm (in the view of a person who doesn't know what the marauders do)?

My suggestion that James was in the dorms is still valid and Lily had the capacity as a fellow Gryfindor to have known that - she could have been sitting next to him on the sofa, sitting at the next table glaring at him for being a jerk, just entering the common room as he comes barreling out of it to go save Snape...

2.What was down there (it was Lupin's secret, but Lily should at least ask someone about this).

Assuming the question is now "Did Lily know what was 'down there'? [down the willow passage]" She likely might have put two and two together - full moons are not exactly unpredictable, nor are they often very subtle, and Snape had already shared his suspicions about Remus being a werewolf with her. In addition, Snape also told her his version of the story during which he would have explained to her what he saw at the end of the tunnel - a werewolf, a.k.a. Remus - so she wouldn't need to ask anyone else about it - an no one else (except the marauders, the headmaster, pomfrey and maybe one or two teachers) would have known about Remus's condition because they tried so hard to keep it quiet.

3.James, if he saved Snape, knew what was down there, and if was something dangerous, then why he didn't tell the Headmaster (again, in the view of a person that didn't know)?

Snape would explain this away to Lily as James trying to save his own neck and keep his friend from getting into more trouble than he was already in. Lily, by this time, knew that James knew Remus was a werewolf so you're paranthetical qualification of "in the view of a person that didn't know" is a moot point because she knew about Remus, Snape knew about Remus, James, Sirius and Peter all knew about Remus and she had probably realized that by Dumbledore telling Snape that he couldn't spill the beans about Remus that the headmaster knew as well. And if Lily had confronted James with this question, asking him why he didn't tell Dumbledore what Sirius had done James would probably have come back with some smartmouth response in the likes of "so you wanted Snape to die then? I just barely made it there in time to save him, if I'd have gone to dumbledore first your little snivelly boyfriend would be dead, dying or a werewolf himself right not."

I don't see how Avery and Mulciber can't be the Slytherin version of James and Sirius, and how can you be so sure Mulciber wanted to do Mary any harm? I might be wrong here -- but my point still stands.

Not related to Lily so I've answered in the Death Eaters group character analysis thread (since Mulciber doesn't seem to have his own thread)

Lily questions what Avery and Mulciber do, but not what the Marauders do, and they are still very similar. And the idea of what the marauders do is funny is still kind of evil, IMHO. Just a laugh or let's kill Mary, both are wrong, and Lily has a blind eye for her housemates, just like Snape had.

You're right. Lily doesn't 'question' the marauders, she actively stands up to them. She didn't think what the marauders did was funny, she was standing up for Snape when they started bullying him. In fact, we are shown several examples of her not being impressed by the marauders/James's actions. And her turning on Snape in SWM is not, to me, an example of her siding with the marauders at that point. It's not like her only options were to chose between the Marauders and Snape. She lashed out at Snape because he used a racial epithet against her and she was consequently hurt and angered by that and she wanted to hurt him in return.

And let's be clear here: There a MASSIVE difference between mean spirited bullying and the intention to harm or kill someone. Both are wrong, yes, but they are not the same. Bullying is mean, it's not evil. People (tend to) grow out of bullying as they mature into adulthood. If you show tendancies to harm or kill people in youth those tendancies usually only get worse as you age. They are not the same.

The concept is abstract, and I won't put the quote here -- but don't think if it was the cruciatus, most likely Avery and Mulciber would've gone to Azkaban? The fact that they probably didn't get more than a detention says a lot about what kind of "dark magic" they used.

I don't have my book on me right now but quote from DH, The Prince's Tale is something akin to

[Lily] "Did you hear what Mulciber tried to do to Mary McDonald?"
[Snape] "It was nothing - a laugh"
[Lily] "It was dark magic, Sev. And if you think that's funny..."

In the same way Sirius wasn't expelled for almost getting Snape killed, Mulciber wasn't expelled for almost using dark magic on Mary. Mary was also probably the only witness that could tell them what Mucliber was trying to do to her and since he didn't seem to achieve the ability to pull off the dark magic against her she couldn't tell them what spell he was trying to use - or if he did manage it, she might not have known what the spell was and so couldn't tell anyone else what it was.

Then we have to disagree here, because Lily was a bit self centered in thinking just because she told Snape to don't hang out with Avery and Mulciber anymore then he would've stopped.

I don't think that's her being self-centered, I think that's her laying down an ultimatum: "I don't want to be friends with someone who likes being around people who are soon to become criminals and probably murderers and I don't want my friend to become a criminal or a murderer either." It was up to Snape to decide on his own what he wanted to do and for Lily's part she would either gain her friend back or end a relationship that had gone toxic. She didn't want any part of the Death Eater or Voldemort's cause and she could see that's where Snape was headed so she gave him an ultimatum, just like a million other people do with their friends or lovers. Is it the best, most mature thing to do? Not entirely. But she wasn't doing it to be mean to Snape, she needed to know one way or the other what side he was choosing because she had already made that choice.

She changed nothing Snape's situation, nor she makes an effort to understand.

She didn't make an effort to understand what? That Snape would have a hard time making friends without her? It wasn't Lily's job to make sure Snape had a happy life and lots of friends, that's was Snape's responsibility (And he had friends, it just so happened they all turned into Death Eaters). She understood that it was Snape's choice which path in life he chose and she was making sure he knew that if he chose to follow and remain friends with Mulciber and Avery that her and Snape's friendship would be over.

Snape wasn't listening to her, and he should have, but either way Lily didn't do much to help her friend more than telling him what to do and making excuses for him (nice, but what about listening to him for a change?)... She talks to much, listens to little, and was that intentional or not, it was a mistake she made. Much like Hermione, who wants to save the house elves, but she doesn't make any effort to understand what the house elves think and chooses the wrong approach to help them. Common teenage girl mistakes, I think.

I disagree that Lily was telling him what to do. I think she was laying the cards on the table and telling him "This is what's going on, these are your choices and the consequences of those choices and it's up to you to decide. I am you're friend and I am concerned for you but let's be very clear: If you choose that path then I can't stay your friend."

I also disagree that Lily didn't understand Snape the way Hermione didn't understand the house elves. Lily and Snape, by fifth year, had been friends for about seven or eight years. She knew him, knew his personality, knew his quarks, his foibles, his strengths, his weaknesses. Hermione met a house elf, made a snap judgement that the way they were being treated was unfair and went about trying to start a revolution for them without bothering to ask them if that's what they wanted.

It's also worth pointing out that there is more to Lily and Snape's relationship that what we're shown on page and it so happens that the bits of their relationship that we're shown tend to be the bits where they're arguing. Lily appears to have been a passionate person with strong convictions and if she wasn't listening to Snape in those moments it might have been because she had heard it all before.

Also, I would like to add that even though Snape loved Lily for quite some time, doesn't change the fact that Lily couldn't protect him in the slytherin dorms, every class, in the common room... And thousands of other places.

I don't think it was her job to protect him. She wasn't his mother, she was his friend, and as a friend all she could do is offer advice and hope that advice would help guide him in making good decisions. I'd also say that it was because of their frequent separation that Snape ended up making some of the bad decisions he made. He already followed voldemort's career when he arrived at Hogwarts and ended up being sorted into a house full of kids who talked Voldemort up and praised his ideas and swept Snape up in their adoration. Snape was separated for a good amount of his time from the positive influence of Lily and that was neither of their fault, it was a circumstance of their sorting.

"Snape's peculiar interests" are something to be discussed in another place, though I would say that by then he wasn't as dark as he was in his sixth year, even if he used Sectusempra in SWM... He was defending himself, not attacking, and after, if Sirius is to be trusted, Snape became more offensive.

Answered in Snape's thread.

EDIT: Never mind, mods deleted the post. =^/

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

And her turning on Snape in SWM is not, to me, an example of her siding with the marauders at that point. It's not like her only options were to chose between the Marauders and Snape.

I agree. She laid into both camps for their unacceptable behaviour. She didn't approve of either of them - the Marauder's bullying or Snape's racial epithet.

She lashed out at Snape because he used a racial epithet against her and she was consequently hurt and angered by that and she wanted to hurt him in return.

Is it the best, most mature thing to do? Not entirely. But she wasn't doing it to be mean to Snape, she needed to know one way or the other what side he was choosing because she had already made that choice.

I think it was the best thing under the circumstances. Lily could not compromise her self-respect, morals and personal safety. She could not play mob-wife, turning a blind eye. She refused to support a DE. IMO, that means that she could not continue her friendship with Snape while he was planning to become a DE. A dangerous choice in that situation would be to follow the way of the three monkeys. I think that would be more immature and certainly more dangerous than giving Snape an ultimatum.

She didn't make an effort to understand what? That Snape would have a hard time making friends without her? It wasn't Lily's job to make sure Snape had a happy life and lots of friends, that's was Snape's responsibility

I agree. Lily did not exist for the sole purpose of Snape's happiness.

I disagree that Lily was telling him what to do. I think she was laying the cards on the table and telling him "This is what's going on, these are your choices and the consequences of those choices and it's up to you to decide. I am you're friend and I am concerned for you but let's be very clear: If you choose that path then I can't stay your friend."

I think a true friend warns someone when they're going down the wrong path. It's not much of a friend who will clap you on the back when you hang out with criminals and plan to become one yourself. It's not much of a friend who will pretend that it's okay and not a big deal that you're going down the wrong path.

[leah49]

Originally Posted by lacerta_lynx

Some people might think I villify Lily, but I don't think the word mudblood was the last straw for her. Rather, Lily's friendship with Snape was long gone when that happened and I think she was just looking for a reason to dump him. When he tries to apologize, she conveniently forgets she sided with the bullies -- which is excusable IMO, but the lack of regret bothers me -- and that he is trying to apologize and use an excuse that not even the Marauders use: that he was going to be a death eater.

"Dumping" Snape as you put it is not siding with "the bullies." Not wanting to be Snape's friend doesn't mean she automatically takes the other side. Yes, we do know eventually she befriends them and marries James, but I don't think it happens at the moment she defriends Snape.

[canismajoris]

Originally Posted by leah49

"Dumping" Snape as you put it is not siding with "the bullies." Not wanting to be Snape's friend doesn't mean she automatically takes the other side. Yes, we do know eventually she befriends them and marries James, but I don't think it happens at the moment she defriends Snape.

The question is though, did she really not take sides? I mean, I'm not suggesting otherwise, but talking generally, and I wonder how we might analyze that scene itself if the question is whether Lily actually takes herself out of the equation. I suppose we'll have to assume that the memory record itself is reliable. Though I still have my doubts, it has been suggested with some authority that memories viewed in a Pensieve are as objective as can be.

OK, now my approach here is to try to assess Lily's reactions to specific stimuli and balance those against what we know about her, about her past sympathies, and her future affiliations. In doing so I'm hoping some sort of indication emerges as to what her state of mind might have been when she walked away.

(It might also be important to clarify that although I'm discussing Snape and James as my nominal "sides" being taken, this is in no way a scenario of pitting James against Snape except where it concerns Lily's identifiable feelings.)

To begin with, Lily enters the scene by shouting at James to leave Snape alone. She does this twice, and according to the narrator, she looks at him "with every sign of great dislike" as James assumes a flirtatious manner. The emphasis of the scene then subtly shifts away from Snape, who is literally in the background of the action, and we have a back and forth between James and Lily during which James says variously provocative and flirtatious things, and Lily admonishes and insults him. Whether we choose to interpret Lily's attitude as real hostility toward James, concern for her friend, or what I'll call "daunger" (a concept I'm borrowing from medieval romances--like a combination of indifference and playing hard to get), up until this point Lily is firmly not in the James camp.

But then something interesting happens. Snape is freed from his impediment jinx, and he counterattacks. According to the narrative, when Snape is levicorpused, "Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, 'Let him down!'" While she is continuing in her original purpose to defend Snape, she is also either now amused by what James is doing, or perhaps betraying her actual feelings for James, i.e., not "great dislike."

Her anger is renewed again, however, but very significantly only when Sirius begins picking on Snape: I might remind you that moments earlier when James hexes Snape Lily falters in her resolve, but when Sirius, a boy not interested in her romantically, begins to torment Snape again, she remembers why she spoke up in the first place. It is, after all, James who releases Snape from the spell, at Lily's specific demand. And then we get the Mudblood comment.

Here Lily flips entirely from what appears to have been her original attitude. After taking a moment, and blinking, she says, "I'd wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus." While her anger is perfectly understandable, her specific choice of words here is remarkable not because it insults Snape, but because it sounds oddly like something James would say.

After this, as James insists that Snape apologize--defending Lily's honor, as it were--Lily renders a fairly invective description of James' behavior, and tells him point blank, "You make me SICK." The question I might pose is why, if she dislikes James so much, does she know and understand him with such specificity and accuracy? I'm not saying there's no good answer for this question, and I can think of several. It just makes me wonder if the impetus for their relationship was entirely that James changed, or if it did involve the conflict between James and Snape somehow, in that Lily felt honor-bound to dislike James, even if at times there are signs that she did not entirely hate him. What I mean is, once she no longer felt obligated to defend Snape, I suspect her view of James' behavior must have softened somewhat, as it did in this scene when she nearly found him amusing, and again when she emulated him in insulting Snape.

I suppose I have no real answers to whether Lily "sided with the bullies." But I think if we interpret the title "Snape's Worst Memory" as the moment when Snape realized Lily did like James, and would never like him, it's clear to me that she was probably well beyond having much sympathy for Snape or his group of friends by the time he says "Mudblood." Considering how much of the scene focuses on James and Lily and how they interact, I think the issue of bullying is just a coincidence, and the real heart of the matter is that Lily has for the first time sided against Snape, which some day will permit her to side with James.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by canismajoris

The question is though, did she really not take sides? I mean, I'm not suggesting otherwise, but talking generally, and I wonder how we might analyze that scene itself if the question is whether Lily actually takes herself out of the equation. I suppose we'll have to assume that the memory record itself is reliable. Though I still have my doubts, it has been suggested with some authority that memories viewed in a Pensieve are as objective as can be.

The authority is JKR herself.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by canismajoris

The question is though, did she really not take sides? I mean, I'm not suggesting otherwise, but talking generally, and I wonder how we might analyze that scene itself if the question is whether Lily actually takes herself out of the equation. I suppose we'll have to assume that the memory record itself is reliable. Though I still have my doubts, it has been suggested with some authority that memories viewed in a Pensieve are as objective as can be.

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

The authority is JKR herself.

The authority is JKR herself, but as readers and fans we can interpret what we think was going on because the likelyhood of finding out JKR's intentions with the scene is not very good.

I agree that, given what we know of how pensieves and memories viewed through them work that they appear to be fairly objective accounts of the moment being viewed (the only tampering we see in canon is Slughorn's memory of Tom Riddle and that seemed pretty obvious though perhaps a more powerful wizard could have done it better...)

(It might also be important to clarify that although I'm discussing Snape and James as my nominal "sides" being taken, this is in no way a scenario of pitting James against Snape except where it concerns Lily's identifiable feelings.)

I'm going to start including clarifications like this in my posts, I'm tired of having them deleted for breaking a rule I didn't think I was breaking

This clarification stand for my post, too.

To begin with, Lily enters the scene by shouting at James to leave Snape alone. She does this twice, and according to the narrator, she looks at him "with every sign of great dislike" as James assumes a flirtatious manner. The emphasis of the scene then subtly shifts away from Snape, who is literally in the background of the action, and we have a back and forth between James and Lily during which James says variously provocative and flirtatious things, and Lily admonishes and insults him. Whether we choose to interpret Lily's attitude as real hostility toward James, concern for her friend, or what I'll call "daunger" (a concept I'm borrowing from medieval romances--like a combination of indifference and playing hard to get), up until this point Lily is firmly not in the James camp.

I agree for the most part. James's bullying does not impress her, she is not amused by it, and she takes a stand against it, something nobody else in the area does.

I'd like to offer another option for the actions that afternoon. It's clear that James didn't like Snape, from the moment they met they got off to a bad start and it seems to only have gotten worse over time. His bullying of Snape can be viewed strictly as such: bullying a boy he doesn't like. But! Did he also know that if he began bullying Snape he'd get the chance to interact with Lily, a girl he had a crush on? Was that also a motivating factor is his bullying of Snape? i think it might have been at least part of it.

Lily, likewise, might have been simply standing up for her friend (assuming that the 'mudblood' calling was really the straw that broke the camels back), but might also have been using her defense of Snape to interact with a boy she herself had a crush on. It seemed like Lily and James interacted mostly when they were arguing about something, fighting about something or when Lily was defending Snape so she might have jumped at the opportunity to interact with her crush in those moments without seeming to betray her friend who wouldn't have approved of the crush and, in fact, would have probably been really upset if he knew she had a crush on him (James).

But then something interesting happens. Snape is freed from his impediment jinx, and he counterattacks. According to the narrative, when Snape is levicorpused, "Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, 'Let him down!'" While she is continuing in her original purpose to defend Snape, she is also either now amused by what James is doing, or perhaps betraying her actual feelings for James, i.e., not "great dislike."

Lily's smile in this moment kind of baffles me. IMO I don't think it's very in-character with how she had been portrayed throughout The Prince's Tale memories. I don't know if it's a smile born of amused irony in Snape having his own spell used against him because we don't know if Lily knew he invented levicorpus, and even that doesn't seem entirely characteristic of her. =^/ The one thing I am sure of, though, is that I don't think it's a smile of approval at James's treatment of Snape.

Her anger is renewed again, however, but very significantly only when Sirius begins picking on Snape: I might remind you that moments earlier when James hexes Snape Lily falters in her resolve, but when Sirius, a boy not interested in her romantically, begins to torment Snape again, she remembers why she spoke up in the first place. It is, after all, James who releases Snape from the spell, at Lily's specific demand. And then we get the Mudblood comment.

This is part of the reason i think it likely that Lily had a crush on James - her anger is renewed both when her friend is continuing to be bullied, but, more tellinging, when that bullying is being done by someone other than James whom she might have been longing for interaction with. By Sirius stepping into the mix he's diverting her attention away from James who is, as I am proposing, the one she really wants to be dealing with in that moment. Her anger is born, then, of both true anger at them bullying her friend and annoyance that she can no longer deal only with James in resolving the issue.

It is, after all, James who releases Snape from the spell, at Lily's specific demand. And then we get the Mudblood comment.

Here Lily flips entirely from what appears to have been her original attitude. After taking a moment, and blinking, she says, "I'd wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus." While her anger is perfectly understandable, her specific choice of words here is remarkable not because it insults Snape, but because it sounds oddly like something James would say.

This is where i start to slightly disagree. I think her use of the nickname 'Snivellus' is because it's a clever, existing nickname she likely knew Snape hated. She was retaliating in this moment against Snape personally by using the nickname his nemesis had given him which would do double damage to Snape; she'd hurt him personally like he hurt her personally and he would interpret this as her 'taking James's side' by using the nickname he (or Sirius??) invented for him. It's important to distinguish, I think, between what Lily's motives for using "Snivellus" were and how Snape would interpret these motives.

After this, as James insists that Snape apologize--defending Lily's honor, as it were--Lily renders a fairly invective description of James' behavior, and tells him point blank, "You make me SICK." The question I might pose is why, if she dislikes James so much, does she know and understand him with such specificity and accuracy? I'm not saying there's no good answer for this question, and I can think of several. It just makes me wonder if the impetus for their relationship was entirely that James changed, or if it did involve the conflict between James and Snape somehow, in that Lily felt honor-bound to dislike James, even if at times there are signs that she did not entirely hate him. What I mean is, once she no longer felt obligated to defend Snape, I suspect her view of James' behavior must have softened somewhat, as it did in this scene when she nearly found him amusing, and again when she emulated him in insulting Snape.

I whole heartedly agree that Lily probably felt honor-bound to dislike James - similar to the phrase "my enemy's enemy is my friend," I'd say rather this is a case of Lily thinking "my friend's enemy must be my enemy." I think during the first five years of them "living in the same house" she would have seen that James was not entirely a bad person but felt that if she thought anything like that that she would be betraying Snape in some way. I also whole-heartedly agree that Lily no longer felt honor-bound to hate James once her and Snape's friendship was ended in the spring of her fifth year. In this case she and James had the whole of their sixth year to reinvent their relationship - what was once adversarily fighting might have become flirtatious banter, laying the groundwork for them getting together at the start of their seventh year.

I suppose I have no real answers to whether Lily "sided with the bullies." But I think if we interpret the title "Snape's Worst Memory" as the moment when Snape realized Lily did like James, and would never like him, it's clear to me that she was probably well beyond having much sympathy for Snape or his group of friends by the time he says "Mudblood." Considering how much of the scene focuses on James and Lily and how they interact, I think the issue of bullying is just a coincidence, and the real heart of the matter is that Lily has for the first time sided against Snape, which some day will permit her to side with James.

I still am not convinced that Lily "sided with the enemy" though I do think Snape would have interpreted it in that way, and I also don't entirely agree with the title "Snape's Worst Memory" being linked to the moment Snape realized Lily liked James. To a very tiny degree it might have been but I think it's more his worst memory because this moment is clearly marked as either the end of the beginning of the end of their friendship (depending on people's interpretation of how badly their friendship had been damaged before this moment)

Interesting review of the moment, though, Canis, I enjoyed reading it. =^)