The Elder Wand

[victoriakrum]

I had absolutely NO idea what was going on in this section of the book. I understood that Harry was now the master of the Elder Wand (because he said he was) but I had/have no clue how that worked. I thought that maybe his original wand (with the phoenix feather) had turned into the Elder Wand, but then I realized that that particular wand was broken.
I thought the previous owner of the Elder Wand had to be killed and then the wand had to be taken from him, but clearly death was not necessary.

[Dumbledoreswand]

I am going to break my computer, I have tried to respond to this twice now and its crashed and lost all my work.....

Originally Posted by ladykrystyna

Dumbledoreswand and wizardwheezes:

Thanks so much for taking the time to help me work this out. What you both have said makes a lot of sense.

No problem at all, I hope you like my theories. I am like Harry, I believe in DD, thats why I believe in these theories!

I'm going to repeat it back one last time to make sure:

Sure.

the Deathly Hallows story was only meant to teach Harry about embracing Death, not that they made you invincible.

Correct! Although on a sidenote, possessing the Hallows as one of the worlds most powerful wizards(DD/LV/GW) would make you close to invincible as it would enhance your already mighty magical arsenal.

This helped him go to his "death" willingly which provided protection for those that fought with him. (I would assume then, that Dumbledore assumed that many people would be fighting along side Harry and that Harry would be given a chance to go to his death willingly?)

Correct! Which is the fundemental issue, as DD implies in King's Cross where he says the fact you came willingly/embraced death is what will make all the difference. He is refering to the great love/sacrafice magic that Harry had just created for all the people he died for; thus making Voldemorts magic against them useless. Eg what made Voldemort useless at Privet Drive after DD had placed the charm there; that same magic, love. Therefore it protects everyone, something DD wanted Harry to do in order to save lives. DD knew Harry was safe, but he did not know Ron/Neville/Hermione/Mcgonagall/etc were safe. So, DD as a man, stood up to his innermost feelings of love for Harry and even Snape, he therefore came across cruel telling Snape and therefore in effect Harry that Harry must die. He knew Harry would live but he could not tell Harry this. Why? Because then Harry would not be conciously making a sacrafice for all the people, he had to willingly accept his own death so that they could live. If DD had told Harry: your going to come back after Voldemort AKs the horcrux out of you, so don't worry you are going to live, Harry would not be making a sacrafice would he? It must be a concious thing, where you know you yourself don't have to die, you could run, but you rather chose to embrace death, therefore creating this powerful magic LV knows nothing of; as Rowling explains in her interview for mugglenet. The same thing his mother did when Voldemort offered to spare her. Therefore DD wanted Harry to save as many people as possible, thus he is so cold about it; he is waiting for Harry to accept this, even though DD knows there is a lot of hope for Harry, that he can't tell him about.

the Elder Wand was the spice to the mix. It was meant to be a non-issue, but turned out to help out, especially since Harry didn't have to kill Voldemort.

Correct!, It is merely, as wizardwheezes says, a plot device, helping Harry destroy Voldemort without having to kill him(which is a theme JK is convey to her readers, keeping Harry untarnished). DD, not being the god Rowling is does not know this is going to happen of course. What he wants is Harry to kill Voldemort, no matter how. But he did not intend for the EW to be at the duel. He just intended for Harry to kill LV, which is very reasonable for eveyone living in that world.

The blood sacrifice was the only thing really saving Harry from being killed because it tethered him to Voldemort, like a reverse Horcrux.

Correct!

Dumbledore assumed that Nagini, aside from Harry, would be one of the last Horcruxes destroyed since it was so near Voldemort. And if Voldemort was protecting Nagini, it meant that he knew that Harry knew about the Horcruxes. Telling Harry about him being a Horcrux at that point would likely make Harry go to death willingly and leave someone else with the job of killing Nagini (especially because once Harry was dead, Voldemort would let Nagini be free because he figured it would be over). So in DD's eyes, Harry did exactly as DD thought he would - go to his death willingly, come back with only one Horcrux left, Nagini would be vulnerable and one way or another Voldemort could at least die (I dont' know if DD was concerned too much about the method).

Correct, Nagini is just another issue that leads to DD wanting Harry to embrace death/die willingly. As, if, Harry goes out fighting, he would naturally attack Nagini, giving the plot away to Voldemort, who then would not have released him at the end when he had 'killed' Harry. Because he would know the rest of the anti-LV's would be onto it. DD was not to concerned with the method, but I suppose he had hoped for a situation where Harry had the phoenix wand, vs some other wand Voldemort had aquired, thus giving Harry an advantage.

Does all that sound right?

Yes , if you agree with my theories.

If so, thanks guys so much. It's like one of those Logic Games questions on the LSAT here in the States (the test to help you get into Law School) - I suck at that stuff (but I'm still a lawyer! Scary, no?).

Anyway, thanks again. You guys are the best!

No prob .

Originally Posted by patronus_17

I'm a bit confused. This is my understanding of it so far:

After Draco disarmed Dumbledore, he became the owner of the Elder Wand. Then, according to the book, Harry becomes the owner of the Elder Wand when he disarmed Draco. Is that right? What I don't understand is when this happened. Was it when the trio were at Malfoy Manor or near the end of Book 6 (which I can't recall at the moment). Also, can anyone also tell me what happened to the Elder Wand when Draco disarmed Dumbledore? Was it left at the tower before it was recovered? I can't remember.

Correct in what your saying so far. It happened as DD died, at the end of book 6. It was disarmed over the ramparts, then put in DDs grave, which is something that supports my other theories if you decide to read them.

Originally Posted by victoriakrum

I had absolutely NO idea what was going on in this section of the book. I understood that Harry was now the master of the Elder Wand (because he said he was) but I had/have no clue how that worked. I thought that maybe his original wand (with the phoenix feather) had turned into the Elder Wand, but then I realized that that particular wand was broken.
I thought the previous owner of the Elder Wand had to be killed and then the wand had to be taken from him, but clearly death was not necessary.

Correct it was not. If you read in this thread, the answer is here without doubt. I will quickly pick it up from DD mastering the wand.

DD mastered the wand.
Draco disarmed him.
Draco became master of the wand as it went against DDs will.
DD died.
Draco is disarmed by Harry, although it is not with the EW in hand, Draco loses the wand against his will.
The wand in the final duel realises this and it recognises its master, Harry.

But read back for a more comphrehensive explanation.

[victoriakrum]

Ah, so the Elder Wand doesn't need to be physically passed down to anyone, it just somehow knows who it is supposed to belong to.

However, in order to be properly defeated, you have to take the wand from the wizard you disarmed, right?

[Dumbledoreswand]

Originally Posted by victoriakrum

Ah, so the Elder Wand doesn't need to be physically passed down to anyone, it just somehow knows who it is supposed to belong to.

However, in order to be properly defeated, you have to take the wand from the wizard you disarmed, right?

Apparently so.

Well if you don't take it, and they reclaim it(while alive), I suppose it will eventually come back to that persons command. Although only Rowling is qualified to answer this and its exacts.

Of course this does not usually happen if the duels are to kill.

[victoriakrum]

I don't think that usually happens, however (the wand going back to the previous owner), because the master is usually killed in a duel, not just unarmed.

[ladykrystyna]

Dumblesdoreswand,

Your theories appear sound to me and I finally get it. And if you notice my sig - I'm a Dumbledore's girl! I trusted that DD had a plan, too, I was just having problems following it for some reason. So many things going on maybe. Could be "mommy brain", too!

Anyway, thank you for your patience!

Signing off . . . for now!

[delphin]

Originally Posted by myndon

(1) I believe Ron is the one who disarmed Bellatrix. Since Hermione didn't "win" it, it refused to obey her.

(2) Likewise, Ron is the one who disarmed the owner of the blackthorn wand, and so Harry's spells are reduced in power because of it.

Although, if I remember correctly, just because you disarm someone doesn't neccessary mean the wand will change allegiance...I think the wand has to "want" to, and "winning" the wand by forcibly removing it from its previous master has a higher chance of "convincing" the wand you are a worthy master.

That's my interpretation anyway

ahhh, that makes sense! maybe the wands could understand they were underage wizards still learning and honing their powers, and not doing battle for real anyway, so it'd be unlikely they'd switch allegiance so easily, since they don't *have* to... i've no idea why that was sticking in my brain, but now i get it. Thanks!!

[Dragonious]

This is how I understood it:

Dumbledore beat Grindelwald thus he won the power of the wand.

Severus beat Dumbledore (for Draco) thus Draco was recieved the power of the wand unknowingly.

Harry beat and took Draco's wand and thus was awarded the power of the wand.

I don't the the wand that Voldemort had at the end was nothing more than a averge wand with no special power.

[Dumbledoreswand]

Originally Posted by Dragonious

This is how I understood it:

Dumbledore beat Grindelwald thus he won the power of the wand.

Severus beat Dumbledore (for Draco) thus Draco was recieved the power of the wand unknowingly.

Harry beat and took Draco's wand and thus was awarded the power of the wand.

I don't the the wand that Voldemort had at the end was nothing more than a averge wand with no special power.

''Severus beat Dumbledore (for Draco) thus Draco was recieved the power of the wand unknowingly.'' This is the part of the theory I have a problem with. It is stated as cannon, that DD intended to die as the wands last master, therefore this would not have happened. He and Snape planned his death so, by default, Snape never 'defeated'(against his will) DD. It also completely ignores what Rowling refers to as the flaw in the plan. So I think you should modify this and say, the flaw in the plan was what gave Draco mastery, the fact that he disarmed DD on the tower against DDs will.

[bruja_mariel]

Originally Posted by Dragonious

This is how I understood it:

Dumbledore beat Grindelwald thus he won the power of the wand.

Severus beat Dumbledore (for Draco) thus Draco was recieved the power of the wand unknowingly.

Draco disarmed Dumbeldore and thus the Elder Wand became his even though he never touched it. Snape had nothing to do with that, it was all Draco and it was unintentional.

[nekurasunshine]

Originally Posted by 4halls

I think it could be very plausible that no one would ever disarm Harry again. Who in their right mind would go up against the man who took out LV? I'm not quite sure how that would work with the "children did it for a joke" or the "teaching" aspect. I would assume that the Elder Wand knows if the master is in a deathly duel or not.

Yes, but Draco wan't exactly in a deadly duel, either. Harry just jumped up at him and nicked his wand. Anyone could do that to Harry in the future, like a 3 year old tugging at his father's wand to get his attention, and it falling out of his hand.

[wizardswheezes]

Originally Posted by nekurasunshine

Yes, but Draco wan't exactly in a deadly duel, either. Harry just jumped up at him and nicked his wand. Anyone could do that to Harry in the future, like a 3 year old tugging at his father's wand to get his attention, and it falling out of his hand.

I know, I wondered about that too. I guess whoever disarmed Harry would have to know about the Elder wand and retrieve it from Dumbledore's tomb. But still, it certainly seems a possible scenario. Fanfic anyone?

[patronus_17]

I have a question...why was Harry the owner of the Elder Wand? I know that it is because he disarmed Draco but I don't remember when this happened. Does this refer to when Dumbledore died in HBP (at the tower) or at Malfoy Manor in DH? If it happened at Malfoy Manor then I'm confused because he took a wand from Draco against his will but does that still count even if it wasn't the Elder Wand that he took?

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by patronus_17

I have a question...why was Harry the owner of the Elder Wand? I know that it is because he disarmed Draco but I don't remember when this happened. Does this refer to when Dumbledore died in HBP (at the tower) or at Malfoy Manor in DH? If it happened at Malfoy Manor then I'm confused because he took a wand from Draco against his will but does that still count even if it wasn't the Elder Wand that he took?

Draco was the master of the Elder Wand, even though he didn't know it. He didn't have to possess the Wand, however. So when Harry disarmed Draco at Malfoy Manor, he disarmed Draco of being the master of the Elder Wand and took the power for himself (unknowingly of course). He didn't have to possess the Elder Wand to be the master or to stop being the master, all that matters is that he was over-powered.

[patronus_17]

Thanks a lot Lord_Godric! That really cleared things up for me!

[JJFinch]

By the "last master" he meant Draco. He was saying to Voldemort that he had taken Draco's personal Hawthorn wand, and, as Draco was, at that time, the master of the Elder Wand, both wands became Harry's.

Originally Posted by Dragonious

...

Severus beat Dumbledore (for Draco) thus Draco was recieved the power of the wand unknowingly.

...

No, Snape didn't beat Dumbledore. Draco became the master of the wand by disarming Dumbledore when he arrived at the tower.

[sarahlvinpotter]

Draco disarmed dumbledore unwillingly, but when snape killed dumbledore it was planned, so snape didnt win the wand, draco did.

The wand stayed with Dumbledore, voldemort took the wand from dumbledore's tomb thinking he would now win its alleigence, but didn't.

Voldemort killed snape because he thought snape was the master of it, again he was wrong.

At mafloy mansion harry disarmed draco, the elder wand knew this happened and recogised harry as its master, so wouldn't kill harry at the end, therfore the spell backfired onto voldemort.

The masters of the elder wand go:
- Dumbledore
-Draco
-Harry

Snape and voldemort never owned the power of the elder wand because they never 'defeated' the current owner of it.

I hope that makes sense lol

[Myst]

If someone said this already I apologize, but the way I understand it is this...

Draco's Hawthorne Wand disarmed Dumbledore's Elder Wand. Than Harry disarmed the Hawthorne wand, that had already disarmed the Elder Wand, which the Elder Wand was never claimed by Draco...sooo Harry disarming the wand (Hawthorne) that had already disarmed the wand (Elder) and that was never claimed by it's master (Draco), makes Harry an owner of both wands.

Not only that, but now Harry in battle used the Hawthorne Wand that he rightfully claimed/owned to battle against the Elder Wand who wasn't in its true master's hands. So even if Harry wasn't the rightful owner of the Elder Wand, still he's battling with a wand that will work with his Master up to it's full potential as opposed to Voldemort battling with a wand that won't work well with him because it's not with it's rightful owner.

So even though the Elder Wand did work for Voldemort, the 2 wands connecting their spells to eachother, the Hawthorne wand is going to work more powerfully than the Elder Wand and I believe that the Elder Wand recognized the Hawthorne Wand being more powerful and basically backed down. Even though the Elder Wand in general is more powerful....it probably isn't more powerful being used in the wrong hands.

[blue3ski]

Originally Posted by Myst

If someone said this already I apologize, but the way I understand it is this...

Draco's Hawthorne Wand disarmed Dumbledore's Elder Wand. Than Harry disarmed the Hawthorne wand, that had already disarmed the Elder Wand, which the Elder Wand was never claimed by Draco...sooo Harry disarming the wand (Hawthorne) that had already disarmed the wand (Elder) and that was never claimed by it's master (Draco), makes Harry an owner of both wands.

Not only that, but now Harry in battle used the Hawthorne Wand that he rightfully claimed/owned to battle against the Elder Wand who wasn't in its true master's hands. So even if Harry wasn't the rightful owner of the Elder Wand, still he's battling with a wand that will work with his Master up to it's full potential as opposed to Voldemort battling with a wand that won't work well with him because it's not with it's rightful owner.

So even though the Elder Wand did work for Voldemort, the 2 wands connecting their spells to eachother, the Hawthorne wand is going to work more powerfully than the Elder Wand and I believe that the Elder Wand recognized the Hawthorne Wand being more powerful and basically backed down. Even though the Elder Wand in general is more powerful....it probably isn't more powerful being used in the wrong hands.

Harry saw Voldemort's green jet meet his own spell, saw the Elder Wand fly high, dark against the sunrise, spinning across the enchanted ceiling like the head of Nagini, spinning through the air toward the master it would not kill, who had come to take full possession of it at last.--The Flaw in the Plan, pp.743-744, US edition

I think this passage shows that the Elder Wand did not "back down" from a stronger wand. It simply recognized its master, and would not kill him, therefore the curse rebounded.

[Myst]

Ahh yes, that's a good point. I was thinking it may have the same reaction either way because it wasn't being used by it's master. But that does show that it happened like that because Harry is it's rightful owner and not because it was just with the wrong person.